India-US Strategic News and Discussion

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KLNMurthy
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

Neela wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote: Maybe I did misunderstand your question. Of course I separate the insult to India from the individual case of DK (though my sympathies are with her, mostly). I thought you were expressing surprise at the use of strip search in the US prison system.

The US spokesperson is right in that strip search is "standard procedure." But that doesn't answer the question, why was it necessary to place an Indian diplomat in the arms of a system with such "standards."

There seems to be some misunderstanding that, if one delves into some of the sloppy practices of IFS personnel, it is the same as condoning the deliberate insult to India in this case. These are two separate things. I don't think this thread is only to discuss the inexplicable (yes, Paki-like) attack by the US on India, and not to touch on India's failure to know just what they are dealing with in Khan.
Sloppy practices, Indian failure to look into what they are dealing with in Khan - torn shirt/open fly.
What do you can the RaymondDavis incident? A LOWLY security contractor suddenly raises up the ranks & gets diplomatic immunity? What practice is that?
Or the Kenyan incident where after killing a father of 3 & leaving behind a pregnant wife? Not sloppy? US failure to dispense justice?
You cannot separate the insult to the case of DK.
Not at all, Neela. No torn-shirt/open-fly here. Incorrect application of the analogy on your part, if I may say so.

It may be my faulty english communication (I am SDRE onlee) but I don't understand why anger at the insult to India, desire to extract revenge in short term, wanting India to prevail in the long term, and examining /criticizing IFS failure to protect its people against an attack they should have known would come (it is their profession to defend India), all should not go together.

I have taken up more than my share of forum time, I don't have any better way to communicate my feelings. This is it for me on this.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by vera_k »

Rahul M wrote:much of the so-called retaliation is silly. proper one would be when a couple of US diplomats are picked up from the consulates on a friday evening and they spend 2 days in custody due to courts being closed.
First order of business is to get the lady to safety.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by pankajs »

Munna mohan has spoken >> Treatment meted out to Indian deputy consul general by US is deplorable
Karan M
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Karan M »

theek hai :roll:
a_bharat
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by a_bharat »

vera_k wrote:
Rahul M wrote:much of the so-called retaliation is silly. proper one would be when a couple of US diplomats are picked up from the consulates on a friday evening and they spend 2 days in custody due to courts being closed.
First order of business is to get the lady to safety.
And the way to do it is by taking measures that sting/shock the Americans (this is both a goal as well as the means). The GOI has taken a few cosmetic steps and we have to see if it ratchets up or not.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

Rahul M wrote: 30% of 1.2 billion not large enough for you ? it's larger than american population.
I am being charitable when I said 70%. If the treatment meted out to dr khobbrgade is against (and by all indications it is) the diplomatic protocol certainly robust protest and symmetric response is called for by the aggrieved party. But it is naive to expect that majority of the aam will be sympathetic to the travails of somebody not elected by them but appointed because she passed a couple exams and interviewed well. Iow not their beloved leader who has their interests at heart.

We are talking percentages abs numbers do not matter
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Neela »

KLNMurthy
R.Jagannathan explains very well why American morality is basically hokum
What absolute rot. The truth is American agencies have sophisticated ways of using their laws against foreigners to defend their interests. Their laws may oppose torture, so they will use Guantanamo Bay to for torture and waterboarding against prisoners. President Obama vowed to shut it down, but Guantanamo is still around. Even if it is shut, they will ask allies in brutal Africa or Thailand to do their dirty work. Americans are forbidden by their own laws to indulge is assassinations abroad, but Obama has converted the CIA into a killing machine. Two years ago, they killed one of their own nationals – Anwar al-Awlaki, for example - because of his alleged terror links (not proven in a court of law). The Americans regularly use drones against civilians in Afghanistan and Pakistan and South Yemen on the plea that one among them may be a terrorist. To have plausible deniability, they even use private surveillance and security agencies as surrogate CIA agents. (Read Mark Mazzetti's eyeopening book, The Way of the Knife, to get a glimpse into this). Their freedom of religion laws will be used against the one country which actually allows everyone to practice and propagate his religion (India), but top allies like Saudi Arabia will get a free pass on this law. America will swear by free markets to lobby for Wal-mart, but will not recognise freedom for labour movement. Is free enterprise only about the movement of capital and not other factors of production? The Americans practice sophisticated racism. Thus they will use a Preet Bharara to target Khobragade (or Rajat Gupta or Raj Rajaratnam) so that it looks like Indian-Americans are implementing the law, and hence not racist, but the same laws will not be used to humiliate the Hispanics or Afro-Americans or the Saudis or American icons like the late Steve Jobs or to convict Richard Nixon or Bill Clinton. (Read the comments on a Washington Post story on Preet Bharara, where the commenter accuses Bharara of not following up on the alleged misdemeanours of some pillars of the American judicial establishment.) Americans, despite paying very little of the UN bill, will not allow US soldiers to serve under generals of another nation, and Americans accused of war crimes cannot be tried anywhere else but in holier-than-thou US of A.
Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/world/devyani- ... ef_article
Last edited by Neela on 18 Dec 2013 13:34, edited 1 time in total.
Philip
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Finally,some show of spine ,better late than never.It is amusing though to see some of the very same diplomutts of the MEA rise up in anger against the very nation whom they a*se licked throughout the decade of "Surrender" Singh.It is only when one of their very own tribe got shafted despicably by the barbaric sh*tworms of the State Dept. that they finally swung into action.

The manner in which the US has received colonial era gora demi-god like treatment under Surrender Singh and his team of servile eunuchs has been simply nauseating.Our babus after the good lady diplomat was humiliated and incarcerated and put behind bars with junkies,while the US still protects its terror agent Headlley,refusing to give India access to him for his role in 26/11 ,exposes the utter hypocrisy,racism and perversity of the Yanqui establishment. Treatment of Indians in the US,as the US regularly calls India,so-called "strategic" bum-chums, is nothing but a damnable lie.The US has been destabilising India for aeons,as it fears India-the world's largest democracy and its moral compass as a beacon to the world's genuine deocracies and an example to follow,as against the utter amoral warmongering and global domination policies of the US.The NSA spying on world leaders shows that the US will use any means whatsoever to cut the throats of its so-called closest friends.

India must retaliate even further by cancelling lucrative defence contracts with the US ,gifted to it,get "Durga to smile" this time round,and boot home a number of its racist diplomats.
India-US row over escalates over arrest of diplomat Devyani Khobragade in New York

India summons US ambassador and announces that it is withdrawing a series of diplomatic privileges to US officials
Andrew Buncombe

Tuesday 17 December 2013

The arrest of an Indian diplomat amid claims she had lied on a visa form for her domestic worker has turned into a major row between Washington and Delhi with India’s national security adviser calling her treatment “despicable and barbaric”.
India on Tuesday summoned the US ambassador and announced that it was withdrawing a series of diplomatic privileges to US officials. It also reopened a road that runs past the US embassy in Delhi but which for several years has been blocked off for security reasons. Several Indian officials declined to meet with members of a visiting US delegation.

“It is despicable and barbaric,” National Security Adviser Shivshankar Menon told the Press Trust of India news agency.


The row follows the arrest last week in New York of Devyani Khobragade, India’s deputy consul general in the city, who has been accused of visa fraud and of making false statements on an application for her housekeeper to work for her in the US.

Indian officials said she was arrested and handcuffed last Thursday as she dropped off her daughter at school, then strip-searched and kept in a cell with drug addicts before posting $250,000 bail.

A spokesman for India’a foreign ministry failed to respond to calls on Tuesday but the Associated Press said a senior Indian official confirmed that the strip search had taken place. The US embassy has yet to comment.

Prosecutors in New York say Ms Khobragade, 39, claimed she paid her Indian maid $4,500 per month but actually paid her less than the US minimum wage. She has pleaded not guilty and plans to challenge the arrest on grounds of diplomatic immunity, her lawyer said last week.

India has reacted with fury to the way its official has been treated, saying Indian diplomats living abroad have for years taken their domestic workers with them and that host governments have had few problems with the issue. Most middle-class Indian homes will employ several domestic workers, often at very low wages.

“They treated her like al-Qa’ida had come to Manhattan,” said analyst and former diplomat KC Singh

Reports suggest the issue dates back several months to when Ms Khobragade’s domestic worker, Sangeeta Richard, requested permission to work for other people on her day off and then later failed to return home to the diplomat’s house.

Ms Richard’s Indian passport was subsequently revoked and she and her family were taken into custody. Subsequent to that, the US authorities have been investigating the circumstances in which she arrived in New York.

A senior member of India’s main opposition party said India should arrest gay partners of US diplomats living in India.


“My suggestion to the government of India is, the media has reported that we have issued visas to a number of US diplomats' companions. Companions means that they are of the same sex,” Yashwant Sinha of the Bharatiya Janata Party told reporters.

He added: “Now, after the Supreme Court ruling, it is completely illegal in our country. Just as paying less wages was illegal in the US. So, why doesn’t the government of India go ahead and arrest all of them?”
PS:"Posting" gay US diplomutts in Tihar among the rapists and queer folk would quickly bring the US to its senses. It was not too long ago that the US posted its gay ambassador to India,"Peter the Poof" Burlieigh,who also served in Sri Lanka.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... -escalates
A "senior Indian diplomat" that the government could retaliate against the gay partners of U.S. diplomats.

India removes barriers to U.S. embassy as anger grows over diplomat's arrest
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/ ... NC20131217
Narendra Modi, the prime ministerial candidate for the opposition Bharatiya Janata Party, and Rahul Gandhi, the scion of the Nehru-Gandhi family that leads India's ruling Congress party, both declined to meet the U.S. delegation.

"Refused to meet the visiting USA delegation in solidarity with our nation, protesting ill-treatment meted (out) to our lady diplomat in USA," Modi said in a tweet.

A senior member of Modi's socially conservative party, currently favorite to form the next government, said India should retaliate by putting partners of gay U.S. diplomats in the country behind bars. India's Supreme Court last week effectively ruled homosexuality to be illegal.

"The reason why they have arrested this Indian diplomat in New York is violation of the law of the land in the United States. Now the same violation is taking place wherever U.S. embassy official have obtained visas for their partners of the same sex," former finance minister Yashwant Sinha told Reuters.

"If American law can apply to Indian diplomats in New York, the India law can apply here," he said.
Last edited by Philip on 18 Dec 2013 13:53, edited 2 times in total.
merlin
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by merlin »

I think India should treat a US posting as a hostile posting for our diplomats. And issue a travel advisory for all Indians traveling to the US that they may well get raped by the US government for minor infractions (strip search is rape).
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

matrimc wrote:
Rahul M wrote: 30% of 1.2 billion not large enough for you ? it's larger than american population.
I am being charitable when I said 70%. If the treatment meted out to dr khobbrgade is against (and by all indications it is) the diplomatic protocol certainly robust protest and symmetric response is called for by the aggrieved party. But it is naive to expect that majority of the aam will be sympathetic to the travails of somebody not elected by them but appointed because she passed a couple exams and interviewed well. Iow not their beloved leader who has their interests at heart.

We are talking percentages abs numbers do not matter
saar ji, don't mind me saying this but you seem to have been out of the loop.
it doesn't matter if she is IAS or a politician (who are more despised than loved in any case), to the mango Indian an Indian representing India has been insulted, that's enough nuance for them. check the local papers and see how they are treating this issue. btw, those cover more than double the number you are quoting.

p.s. I am still waiting for the rejoinder you promised.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by ashish raval »

+1 Philip
chandrasekhar.m
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by chandrasekhar.m »

Questions have been raised about the IFS' lack of foresight, which I guess deserves introspection.
But, from the various news reports and comments, what the diplomat did for hiring the maid seems to be "standard procedure" based on a tacit understanding with the US. Domestic help is paid in Indian wages. US knows this and it has been going on.

Am I correct about the above?

If so, ignoring this standard procedure that was already in place, the US authorities arrest her followed by strip search and bunking with other criminals. And I am infuriated at that. If they dont like it, communicate to the Indian authorities that they will take such extreme action, rather than acting first.

Imagine this incident hadnt happened and Indian authorities suddenly break some such unwritten agreement and start dishing out similar treatment to US diplomats. I wonder if all who are patting the US' back will praise the Indian authorities then.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Karan M »

after reading what the lady went through, how is it possible not to be upset? read r jagannathans article in firstpost as it summarizes how many of us feel.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Sanku »

The lack of foresight part is right in one sense, treating US like a civilized country where Indians are not treated like native american tribesmen. Big mistake
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by merlin »

KLNMurthy wrote:
merlin wrote:Good thing is that this has exposed lots of house niggers like Rajeev Srinivasan, that Bhambra character, T P Sreenivasan, Indian media stationed in the us. Etc.

Am sure Ganga din MMS will be happy with an unconditional apology but even he will be perfectly fine when it doesn't happen.
Merlin, did Rajeev Srinivasan write in support of the USA in the DK case? I find that hard to believe. Can you provide a link to support your statement?
Check out his tweets.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by krishnan »

No..she is just a prized catch..with a potentially damaging outcome for many bureaucrats and ministers !!
twitter
KLNMurthy
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

merlin wrote:

Merlin, did Rajeev Srinivasan write in support of the USA in the DK case? I find that hard to believe. Can you provide a link to support your statement?
Check out his tweets.[/quote]

I did, he was in support of Devyani, from what I could see.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by saumitra_j »

From TOI: Shri Salman Khurshid speaketh
Spelling out the series of steps initiated to scale down the privileges granted to US diplomats in India, he said there was a "conspiracy" in which Khobragade was "virtually trapped".
He said the diplomat is "innocent" and the US action was unwarranted. "It is not illegality that she is accused of, but the illegality she refused to oblige," he said.
WTF is that? How was she trapped? There is more to it than the usual Massa being arrogant stuff in this.
Last edited by saumitra_j on 18 Dec 2013 15:07, edited 1 time in total.
SSridhar
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

saumitra_j, Salman Kurshid is referring to the threats issued by the maid demanding a regular passport, US Visa etc , which are what DK seem to have refused saying these would be illegal.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by saumitra_j »

Ohk thanks Sridhar sir, but why would Massa do this for a lowly maid? Was this Sangeeta Richards lady being cultivated as some sort of agent for CIA??
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

OK...now it begins to trickle out. EAM won't make a statement like that in parliament without proper brief...

Looks like there is a serious tussle within US bureaucracy, and one side is using this as a blow to drive a wedge against the "let's get even closer to India" group. For "the illegality she refused to oblige" it means more than State Department bureaucracy is involved here. Some information will spill... Very curious.

Somebody had to decide, "OK, take down this chick" - and that's certainly not the NYPD. Under normal circumstances, for what seems like a pay dispute, the diplomat probably won't even have to leave the premises. The "degree of immunity" business is pure BS (as the US knows, and it's diplomats in India will soon feel first hand).

Guys, please don't get sidetracked by this EJ bullshit. It may have some role, but more likely it is the other angle - someone throwing a controlled hissy fit in very Foggy Bottom (combined with other issues).
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by pankajs »

TIMES NOW ‏@timesnow 5m

US spokesperson made false statement on immunity to Devyani: Sources to Times Now #DevyaniHumiliated
Philip
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Even the mouse can roar (feebly)! Mouse Mouse Singh has told parliament that the treatment of our diplomat was "deplorable".Well,after the removal of barriers,condemnation from Modi to the Congress High Command,with demos outside the US embassy,Mouse Mouse had no other option but to prove that he can also echo the same. The big Q is how far will India go to avenge the sadistic perverted treatment of our lady diplomat? There are a number of options open and India must exercise the best ones which sends out a loud and clear message to the Yanquis that they have made a terrible mistake.

PS:Is there a connection between this incident and the emergence of the AAP? Anna H on telly says that he requires no funds to address a rally,an oblique reference to the AAP honcho Kejriwal who is alleged to have been the recipient of massive US funding,and some even go so far as alleging that he is a planted US stooge! The plot thickens .Thus far the war criminal,O'Bomber ,has kept his orifice firmly shut,while his diplomutts talk crap.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Neela »

Slightly OT.
At the end of his term, with India America relations too being damaged, what does MMS have to show?
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Ardeshir »

By the way, Article 47 of the Vienna Convention quoted here for posterity:

Article 47
Exemption From Work Permits

Members of the consular post shall, with respect to services rendered for the sending State, be exempt from any obligations in regard to work permits imposed by the laws and regulations of the receiving State concerning the employment of foreign labour.
Members of the private staff of consular officers and of consular employees shall, if they do not carry on any other gainful occupation in the receiving State, be exempt from the obligations referred to in paragraph 1 of this Article.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

so that means our diplomats can sign any agreement and bring their own personal staff in and out without being subject to any local laws.
also the lady was correct in denying her any regular visa etc because that is illegal per the 2nd para.
India should probably file a case in The Hague and claim $10 mil in damages from the maid - let her backers cough it up and let a precedence be set.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Sanku »

To ensure diplomatic immunity, India shifts Devyani Khobragade to Permanent Mission in New York
In an effort to ensure that Devyani Khobragade gets full diplomatic immunity for her remaining stay in the United States, the government has transferred her to India's Permanent Mission in New York with immediate effect.

However, the complication is that she would have to apply for a fresh diplomatic card through the UN Secretariat, which would ultimately go for clearance to the US State Department. Here is where the Indians are hoping that Washington will show some positive intent by issuing the card and, in doing so, extend full immunity to her.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Neela »

Brahma Chellaney ‏@Chellaney 12m

Don't let the sound & fury spook you: India has only withdrawn nonreciprocal privileges to US diplomats & unblocked roads. Is this reprisal?
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by pankajs »

True. Only extending "standard procedure" a couple of American consular officials will bring any sense of balance to me. Reprisal will be if this "standard procedure" is extended to all American consular officials.
Last edited by pankajs on 18 Dec 2013 16:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Altair »

India EAM accuses US of Visa Fraud by helping maid Richards emigrate to US despite the pending cases in Delhi Court. This is getting interesting. DK gets full diplomatic immunity as she is not an envoy to US anymore but to UN in NY. As a UN envoy she can work in NY and have full diplomatic immunity.
Question: Why did US facilitate visa by cutting corners for a maid? Maid in Manhattan?
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by krishnan »

Plot thickens.@manupubby:10 Dec,3days before arrest of Ind diplomat in NY,maid's husband n children flew 2US on visa granted by Washington.”

hmmm, so who was the maid really ????
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Altair »

Plot thickens.@manupubby:10 Dec,3days before arrest of Ind diplomat in NY,maid's husband n children flew 2US on visa granted by Washington.”
District Magistrate Debra Freeman issued a warrant signed on December 11. Connect the dots..
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

This has EJ and foggy bottom written large over it...
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by pankajs »

India shifts Devyani to UN Mission, says US planned her arrest
New Delhi: India has charged United States of America with planning the arrest of Devyani Khobragade in an alleged case of visa fraud related to her domestic help Sangeeta Richards.

<snip>

According to Indian officials the immigration fraud was carried out by Sangeeta Richards and not Devyani. Richards's husband and two children flew out of India on Air India 101 to New York on December 10 after they had got visas from US authorities and the entire thing was planned by US Department of Justice two days before Devyani was arrested.

The visas were issued despite India warning the US about a warrant and court injunction against Richards's husband.
We should give the "standard procedure" treatment to the US official who granted the visa.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by krishnan »

so they set her up, by giving a false visa fraud case against her .

ok, so who is this maid and why US wants her family in there.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by pankajs »

We should create a new category of human rights award with a Gandhi tag and award Snowden the 1st.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Altair »

rohitvats wrote:This has EJ and foggy bottom written large over it...
I would agree with you as it is our usual suspect but my question is Why this escalation? What went wrong?
We dont even know what went wrong! We are only sorting the consequences. We can conclude its EJ thing but its imperative we find out what was the fuse that lit this.
I am absolutely certain some major head rolling will follow this cockup. We must connect the pieces to see what was the trigger that set things in motion and probably where do we go from here.
Eitherway,I would be extremely glad that Indo-US relations set back to 1971-Enterprise state. I would give motichoor laddo to all BRFites by Bludedart parcel!!
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by sum »

krishnan wrote:
Plot thickens.@manupubby:10 Dec,3days before arrest of Ind diplomat in NY,maid's husband n children flew 2US on visa granted by Washington.”
How did our immigration not catch this if the hubby, child were barred from travel by court?
Arent the immigration desks "red-flag" lists updated based on court rulings/Passport numbers?
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by JTull »

Did the maid have access to consular/diplomatic papers for 6 months which Devyani might have brought home?
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by pankajs »

Times Now > India accuses US of trying to frame Devyani
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