New Delhi: There is a growing disparity between the monetary allocation that the armed forces seek for modernisation and what they eventually get in the Union budget.
Latest figures show that the gap is so wide that what the government allotted for 2021-22 under the Capital budget, was lower than the allocation that the forces had sought seven years ago in 2014-15.
This gap in what the forces project under capital expenditure and what is eventually allotted by the finance ministry has led to multiple projects getting delayed because of a cash crunch and a majority of the modernisation funds going into committed liabilities.
According to data provided in the Rajya Sabha in a written reply Monday, the armed forces had projected a need for Rs 1,32,597.69 crore in the 2014-15 fiscal for modernisation plans. The government, however, allotted just Rs 84,076.95 crore in that year’s budget.
This bill by the armed forces had risen to Rs 1,99,553.44 crore under the capital budget in this year’s budget demand. The government, however, eventually allotted Rs 1,23,000.22 crore, an amount less than what the Services had sought in 2014.
his works out to be roughly a 38 per cent downsizing from the Services’ demand as part of its modernisation plans, which comes at a time when tensions with China is at an all time high since the 1962 war.
Experts point out that the capital budget does not mean funds only for acquisition but also includes money for land and certain construction activities.
For example, in the 2020-21 budget, while the capital budget under the budgetary estimate was Rs 1,02,432.57 crore, only Rs 89,698 crore was meant for modernisation, according to Laxman Kumar Behera, associate professor at Jawaharlal Nehru University’s Special Centre for National Security Studies.
Talking to ThePrint, Behera said the budget deficit is not unique to the Narendra Modi government but added that the gap has become more acute in recent years because of which less money is available for new contracts as the majority of funds go into committed liabilities.
Committed liabilities is a term for payments that need to be made according to the schedule for contracts inked in the past.
New Delhi: There is a growing disparity between the monetary allocation that the armed forces seek for modernisation and what they eventually get in the Union budget.
Latest figures show that the gap is so wide that what the government allotted for 2021-22 under the Capital budget, was lower than the allocation that the forces had sought seven years ago in 2014-15.
--snip--
This bill by the armed forces had risen to Rs 1,99,553.44 crore under the capital budget in this year’s budget demand. The government, however, eventually allotted Rs 1,23,000.22 crore, an amount less than what the Services had sought in 2014.
his works out to be roughly a 38 per cent downsizing from the Services’ demand as part of its modernisation plans, which comes at a time when tensions with China is at an all time high since the 1962 war.[/b]
--snip--
This is rediculous most divisions will over estimate what they want to spend and then finance division will allocate based on vison for coming year. Taking the demand as base and then calculating how much shortfall is sheer numbers juglery.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 11 Mar 2021 17:32
by Cyrano
I notice a subtle change in the recent articles from Print, Wire etc. Earlier it was direct forces bashing or demeaning their capabilities. Remember how IAF was hounded for "proof" that Balakot actually killed jehadis, and some had questioned if the strikes even happened ? They stopped that line of attack because Paki ministers & Army officials have admitted it. Then the Army smashed Chinese soldiers and PLA morale in Galwan, outfoxed them in occupying heights in Ladakh and checkmated their moves. Given the immense support and pride Indian people have for the forces now, these media cant dare attack the forces anymore.
So they take a kind of neutral/not overtly anti-forces stand, and fire stupid salvos at the Govt. Like the article above or the pathetic snide attack on the PM & the forces by Panag regarding the recent Commanders’ Conference in Print. I've deliberately omitted linking it.
There will be less and less takers to such crying for the sake of crying as time goes by.
There appears to be worry in news generation circles about strict laws (which will make even the owners/editor liable) with hefty punishments (which might include arrests) being readied by the government. The GOI seems to be doing some chankian strategy and getting them to be seen as sanctioned by the SC, so as not to give BIF forces 'Freedom of press khatre mein from Dictatorial Modi' opportunity. Local jaichands are already getting tense seeing the GOI threatening to clip powerful firangi media.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 20 Mar 2021 11:28
by RajD
As Mani sir describes, it'd have been an absolutely sinister plot if true. The consequences would have been disastrous. Thank god it was averted or misfired somehow. https://youtu.be/qHqLzN-YQk4
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 20 Mar 2021 12:17
by Paul
The objective may have been to extort money from the Ambanis and attribute it to the Indian Mujahideen.
How did they assume nothing would come out beats me!
He could very well be labelled as a terrorist under current laws ., and get the related benefits
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 28 Mar 2021 22:04
by Vips
When someone is trying to hang himself, give him a long rope but make sure in the end he is dead.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 28 Mar 2021 22:14
by Sachin
darshan wrote:Only rich countries like India can afford to allow such terrorists to perennially cause damages worth thousands of crores.
kit wrote:He could very well be labelled as a terrorist under current laws ., and get the related benefits
Vips wrote:When someone is trying to hang himself, give him a long rope but make sure in the end he is dead.
Shri Dakaait @ Rakesh Tikait is making these statements just to get some attention. He and the Punjab based farmer broker gang have now become jokers, with all their gimmicks in stock now being taken out and spent. There was one "Bharath Bandh" by the farmer broker gang two days back. Did any one even notice it? As usual this Bandh was only successful in the land of the farmer broker gang - i.e Punjab and some parts of Haryana. In rest of the country every thing went as usual.
The Govt. of India is now ignoring Dakaait and his fan following, and the rest of the country has also moved on. With the Supreme Court's stay still active the three agricultural laws are now 'stayed'. I hope the SC appointed committee will give its report soon and the stay would be lifted. And by then Dilli Pulis would have got some plan drafted to deal with Dakaait and his fans.
Now even foreign nationals are doing violent protests? We should take this up with Nigeria.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 29 Mar 2021 19:18
by Ambar
Happens a lot more often than we think. Many metros especially Bangalore has a huge illegal Nigerian and Somalian population, many of them get frequently arrested for dealing drugs or illegally taking over rented homes and refusing to vacate. Bangalore and Pune have also historically been very popular among Iranian students, this has been the case since the 70s revolution when many students fled Iran fearing crackdown by the islamists. A few years ago 2 Iranian girls smashed a zonal police station in Bangalore, the male cops just stood stunned and watched their station get ransacked by 2 crazies.
On a lighter note, wasn't it a Algerian diplomat's wife who punched Sagarika Ghose in Delhi over parking ?
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 29 Mar 2021 20:11
by vijayk
Based on studying George Soros funded NGOs who are trying to create a mayhem in Democracies like India, US, this is what I found:
Humongous network of co-ordination platforms, fund raising platforms, publicity platforms, event organization
This is simply mind boggling ... , AWS Redshift based Warehouse
Integration to Sales Force
Integration to opensupporter
https://opensupporter.github.io/osdi-docs/
The Open Supporter Data Interface (OSDI) effort seeks to define an API and data structures for interoperability among products in the progressive cause-based, campaign and non-profit marketplace. The existence of a common API will reduce customer costs related to moving data between different systems, lower integration costs and enhance the ability of innovators to create products for the marketplace.
OSDI membership is made up of progressive vendors and organizations as well as invited non-partisan and mainstream industry vendors.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 30 Mar 2021 01:29
by KLNMurthy
darshan wrote:Unsurprisingly and predictably it's matching up to what they do. In GJ, they have tweaked their template little bit after 2002 but the salami slicing is there without any doubt as there's hardly any action from the bureaucracy and politicians. Hindus don't recognize enemies till it's too late. My forefathers have told me to operate in a binary mode when dealing with abrahmics and I for a second don't believe that they are wrong. The enemy never sleeps as it's in their books to not sleep. It's Hindus who are kumbhkaran.
Or maybe Hindus are Hanuman, who was cursed as a baby to not know his own strength and power.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 04 Apr 2021 15:09
by tandav
Sunday Ambush of Security forces in Sukma district Chattisgarh by Naxals has resulted in 22 deaths of CRPF? jawans. Points to a high level of training, motivation and C3IR to achieve this level of success amongst Naxalites.
tandav wrote:Sunday Ambush of Security forces in Sukma district Chattisgarh by Naxals has resulted in 22 deaths of CRPF? jawans. Points to a high level of training, motivation and C3IR to achieve this level of success amongst Naxalites.
And its likely the chinese intelligence who is supplying weapons and funds !,
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 04 Apr 2021 16:52
by darshan
No reason to eliminate jaichands inside the country. outside help has always been there.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 04 Apr 2021 19:21
by Ambar
It is baffling how 300+ armed naxals can just walk in, indiscriminately kill 22 soldiers and injure several others and then disappear. In this day and age of drones and electronic intelligence how do we let this happen ? We can keep talking about Chinese or Paki arms and training but unless we fix our own intelligence gathering then such dastardly incidents will keep repeating. Had this been on the western border we would be screaming for a full blown war against pakis by now.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 04 Apr 2021 19:31
by chetak
Ambar wrote:It is baffling how 300+ armed naxals can just walk in, indiscriminately kill 22 soldiers and injure several others and then disappear. In this day and age of drones and electronic intelligence how do we let this happen ? We can keep talking about Chinese or Paki arms and training but unless we fix our own intelligence gathering then such dastardly incidents will keep repeating. Had this been on the western border we would be screaming for a full blown war against pakis by now.
when the liberandus lionize scum like him, anything is possible
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 04 Apr 2021 19:37
by chetak
This cruel, apathetic, and disgusting normalisation of Red terror is mandatory viewing
via@AssertiveTeen
Chetakji, sometime in the early 2000s naxals attacked a Karnataka State Reserve Police camp near Tumkur Dist. of Karnataka. I remember reading in the newspapers in the days after the attack that heavily armed naxals travelled in big trucks and vans and began firing on KSRP. The attack lasted for a good half an hour and the naxals then took time later for their usual barbaric rituals of taking trophies or leaving messages. After the attack they travelled back to whereever they came from in the same trucks. I was familiar with the area where the attack took place and although i wouldnt call it completely urban, it wasn't some dense jungles either. At that time i couldn't help but think how can someone travel in slow moving trucks, kill and maim dozens and then travel back the same way without being spotted or pursued ? Cretins like VV Rao, Gaddar etc and their media sympathizers like Gowri Lankesh, Rana Ayyub, Arfa Kahnum etc will always be there but what are we doing about intelligence tactics and military strategy to wipe out these termites for once and for all ?
Has videos of armed naxals programs (chattisgarh/jharkand) and also the communists inciting speeches and brainwashing sessions and seminars. These folks need to be held accountable.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 04 Apr 2021 20:46
by nam
It is due to our usual approach to COIN. Throw men at the problem, instead of technology. If the naxal attacks are frequent, throw large number of men. The resultant attrition warfare, will force naxal to pull back and wait for the next opportunity.
CRPF then reduces it's op intensity or become lethargic. Naxals then hit them again. CRPF pushes in more men. The cycle repeats.
One major difference with J&K is that attacks in J&K are constant. There is always a grenade attack or civilian or attacks on cops. 1 or 2 people are killed. The naxals carry out large scale sudden attacks, instead of single attacks. This forces our team in J&K to under constant vigilance and gather intel to knock off individuals. Moreover the area is smaller than Naxal as well.
So technically J&K is actually a COIN ops, where as Naxal is a low intensity conventional warfare. It is obvious that the technical ISR in Naxal areas are found wanting.
You cannot detect large scale movement of Naxals before attacks, points to incompetence. Specially when the Naxals uses the same method, every time. Large scale ambush of large units.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 04 Apr 2021 22:13
by darshan
Not enough technology is always a problem. However, iirc, during the investigation of last big massacre like this it was found that naxals had all the inside information. Add congress govt on top.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 04 Apr 2021 22:28
by shravanp
Why can't air assets like drones, ALH/Rudra be used for counter insurgency operations against Naxals? Thats what I don't understand that an aspiring superpower country like India, can such outlaws be allowed to grow right in the middle of the country? So much money has been spent in developing and/or purchasing/importing weapons solely dedicated to Pak/Chin, but why can't some of that be repurposed in eradicating Naxal nuisance ? I think some federal structures come in way, hence some legislations might be necessary to intervene directly without state permission. This way Center can go full throttle against Naxals, and eradicate them
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 04 Apr 2021 23:11
by chetak
darshan wrote:Not enough technology is always a problem. However, iirc, during the investigation of last big massacre like this it was found that naxals had all the inside information. Add congress govt on top.
sirji,
It is not so much a technology issue as it is of leadership, training, motivation, responsibility and field application.
these forces are very poorly officered and abysmally led. ordinary cops, and particularly IPS included are reluctant to be deputed to such organisations in field units. Intake is often politically "inspired" and most of the times these recruits have relatives among the naxals and vice versa and caste plays a decisive role in many ways.
there are also many naxal spies embedded among the "commandos".
Most of the times, the men are out on their own with no reconnaissance, no ground intelligence, no surveillance and little or no logistics to back them up. Humint is not developed to the extant that it could be, whereas in places like cashmere, humint development and inputs are de rigueur.
there is widespread corruption that pervades all aspects of the lives of these poor guys who are cannon fodder. Money flows fairly freely and sometimes it is spent without accountability which is a recipe for disaster in any govt run institution.
lines of communication are often complex, inefficient and most of the time counter productive because of delays.
The IA is squeamish to enter the fray but the "commandos" could easily be trained by them in jungle warfare. They train many international armies in such urban and jungle warfare tactics. But that IPS has forcefully marked its territory jealously and refuses to let the IA inside the tent.
lax operational procedures and an all pervading lack of situational awareness along with non deployment of risk mitigation tactics is costing them very heavily. Political interference greatly restricts their reach and operational efficiency.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 04 Apr 2021 23:14
by AshishA
How is the is naxals supply chain maintained? I mean from where do they get the weapons inside a dense Jungle?
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 04 Apr 2021 23:23
by chetak
AshishA wrote:How is the is naxals supply chain maintained? I mean from where do they get the weapons inside a dense Jungle?
extortion and fear and frequent killings of villagers falsely labelled as "spies and collaborators" ensures that the naxals supply chain is healthy. Also, they openly shop in many local markets using women members using money extorted from the surrounding villages and from contractors.
most of the time, the weapons come from pak, china and myanmar.
The ltte was also active some time ago, both in training them and also weapon supplies but I do not have the latest inputs on them in this matter
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 04 Apr 2021 23:26
by Rudradev
You don't need too many advanced weapons when you have huge advantage in numbers at the point of ambush. If about 10-12 guys are well-trained and equipped with AKs and/or RPGs, with the other 290-odd having country-made guns/bombs, old Enfield rifles, even lathis and stones... the element of surprise from cover can be more than enough to effect a massacre. Enough confusion is created that the ambushed party does not know which way to focus its fire and the outcome can turn on a few minutes or seconds. Pre-planted IEDs only add to the effectiveness of such an ambush. I don't think the outcome would have been the same in an offensive raid by CRPF on the same Naxal unit, or even a pitched battle in the open.
The "elite squad" at the core of the operation may be Pakistan-trained, Pakistan/China-equipped using materiel smuggled in from Nepal or even acquired through corruption in the forces. The point is they don't need very much of that sophisticated materiel to be successful.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 04 Apr 2021 23:42
by RajeevK
chetak wrote:
The IA is squeamish to enter the fray
What next for the army, take over police activities and run thanas next? After all police can't control local riots, e.g. the recent one in Delhi. So the next could very well be to take over the local policing activities.
CRPF's mandate is internal security, so they should be provided appropriate training, equipment and support to handle it.
The root cause in any case is political, where left wing extremism is glorified as class struggle carried out by the innocent poor people. So the media and the politicians, give left wing extremism a free hand.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 04 Apr 2021 23:47
by Ambar
AshishA wrote:How is the is naxals supply chain maintained? I mean from where do they get the weapons inside a dense Jungle?
Don't even need dense jungle, like i mentioned in my post above some of the attacks are in semi-urban settings and after the attack they leisurely melt back into their hiding places/general population. The problem with anti-naxal COIN operations as others here have mentioned is (a) Poor leadership and training in CRPF/SSB to take on naxals (b) Either a reluctance or lack of resources to deploy modern intel gathering equipment (c) Corrupt politicians. Outside of "kadi ninda" we don't seem to have a proper long term strategy to eliminate these ba$tards for once and for all. One would think with the sort of rapid urbanization and development India has seen in the last 20 years it would be difficult to pull such attacks but no, every new attack on our forces is more frontal and brutal than the last.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 04 Apr 2021 23:52
by chetak
Rudradev wrote:You don't need too many advanced weapons when you have huge advantage in numbers at the point of ambush. If about 10-12 guys are well-trained and equipped with AKs and/or RPGs, with the other 290-odd having country-made guns/bombs, old Enfield rifles, even lathis and stones... the element of surprise from cover can be more than enough to effect a massacre. Enough confusion is created that the ambushed party does not know which way to focus its fire and the outcome can turn on a few minutes or seconds. Pre-planted IEDs only add to the effectiveness of such an ambush. I don't think the outcome would have been the same in an offensive raid by CRPF on the same Naxal unit, or even a pitched battle in the open.
The "elite squad" at the core of the operation may be Pakistan-trained, Pakistan/China-equipped using materiel smuggled in from Nepal or even acquired through corruption in the forces. The point is they don't need very much of that sophisticated materiel to be successful.
right you are, sirji
but an ambush is very rarely spontaneous and on the rarest of rare occasion, a well prepared assault team needs to be in the right place at the right time with many other imponderables falling into place.
numbers will not play a decisive part in the success of the ambush unless the ambush gets prolonged and matters get out of hand.
It all boils down to advance inputs about the path of the adversary, his firepower, strength, situational awareness and fighting capabilities and the proximity of reinforcements if any, with the ambush being prepared in advance at a set place with dominating lines and clear arcs of fire and a workable retreat strategy in case things go pear shaped.
The ambushed need to enter the pre prepared kill zone, unaware of the ambush that has been set to be sprung
this requires very detailed and advance knowledge of their movements and also the very real possibility of the fact that someone sympathetic to the naxals (more likely) was part of the operational planning team.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 04 Apr 2021 23:57
by chetak
RajeevK wrote:
chetak wrote:
The IA is squeamish to enter the fray
What next for the army, take over police activities and run thanas next? After all police can't control local riots, e.g. the recent one in Delhi. So the next could very well be to take over the local policing activities.
CRPF's mandate is internal security, so they should be provided appropriate training, equipment and support to handle it.
The root cause in any case is political, where left wing extremism is glorified as class struggle carried out by the innocent poor people. So the media and the politicians, give left wing extremism a free hand.
The IA has drawn clear red lines.
It will not deploy against locals in India but it is open to helping in other ways.
They say that if they do so, there is no difference between them and the paki army which uses gunships against her own people
I agree with them.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 05 Apr 2021 13:52
by Manish_P
chetak wrote:
The IA has drawn clear red lines.
It will not deploy against locals in India but it is open to helping in other ways.
They say that if they do so, there is no difference between them and the paki army which uses gunships against her own people
I agree with them.
If the IA and the IAF might have stated that they don't wish to conduct offensive operations against naxals, then i will respect their thought process.. i do think however that our COIN forces should consider being internally equipped with a dedicated smallish but effective Air Wing (light attack helos and turbo prop fixed wing ACs, in addition to the UAVs)
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 05 Apr 2021 14:16
by kvraghav
The CRPF should be provided with the Dhruv WSI. Will server both CASEVAC and offensive air power. There was also rumbling about IAF not doing CASEVAC effectively in one such operation. It might be good idea to take back most of the rotary birds from IAF/IA and form a central command for them. They can be assigned based on need and the regular transport duty can be handled by this central command. The IAF anyways should be fighting and not handle transport duties. Peace time, the birds can be with Internal forces and war time, they can be attached to the IA/IAF.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 05 Apr 2021 14:58
by Cyrano
CRPF deployed in Naxal areas as repeatedly shown itself as a poorly organised and badly directed force. It has been hit many times with IEDs, fallen into ambushes, or attacked right on its own base like in the recent case. The officers leading them are clueless and have not made any case to get helis so far. They would be even more clueless to use helis as a force multiplier and not just to shuttle themselves around in style.
In any case, use of helis for case vac is surely a need, every jawan's life is precious. Heli use for their troop movement is questionable given its small carrying capacity. CRPF is a low capability in large numbers type force in anti naxal theatres, and not a highly trained and capable small units force. Thats why they move around in large numbers in trucks and buses and become vulnerable. Ferrying them in groups of 8-10 in helis is not suitable for they type of force they are.
Effective heli usage involves training in C & C, MRO facilities, and larger bases with required infra, so thats another capability to build. But can't be done everywhere since CRPF could be deployed all over India for various tasks under Home Ministry.
Coming to attack helis, using them to drop bombs and rockets on own population even if they are killer insurgents, makes for pretty bad optics IMO. It becomes an admission that all other means of dealing with the problem have failed, and the Govt has resorted to bombing those people out of existence. Attack helis may not be effective in dense jungles which offer ample cover, and are vulnerable to small arms fire. If this pushes the insurgents to acquire manpads etc. which is not easy, but with Chini backing not impossible, it means escalating the conflict to the next level. In case a heli goes down during offensive ops, it will be a huge egg on the face of the Govt.
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 05 Apr 2021 15:18
by Prem Kumar
Many in IA, who've seen combat, are pointing out glaring mistakes, both in tactics & organization:
Read especially the last twitter thread by rathrekaran17
6. Every year 50000 highly trained armed forces pers retire at the age of 35-40 as per terms of service. None are laterally absorbed in CAPFs / police. Those who are selected their seniority and pay is NOT protected and they gotta start at the bottom again!!! Why??
He talks about how we need to follow the Brit model of lateral absorption of mid-level, ex-IA officers who have actual combat & tactics experience. Not just as trainers, but in actual mid/senior level roles within CRPF and the Police Forces. Their talents are going waste, thanks to the IPS turf-guarding.
If Amit Shah is serious about wiping out Red, he needs to bring in such structural changes. But knowing Modi/Shah's incrementalism, I am betting that this won't happen
Re: Internal Security Watch
Posted: 05 Apr 2021 15:27
by kvraghav
The biggest problems is also the one exam wonders called IPS heading them. These bosses have zero combat experience and only have ego. The senior posts should go to someone rising from withing the CRPF rather than Novice IPS officers who had just joined the force to spend time in AC offices. Army like structure needs to be brought in and keep IPS out. Same thing should be done for local police SWAT teams. Ever seen IPS leading any action ? It's always the lower officers who are the cannon fodder.
