India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 19 Dec 2013 00:01

Wonder if the US miscalculated or was it deliberate?
All sorts of associations with humiliating women - national honour etc. They may have thought to rattle the diplomats. If it was a man, we would not know the details. This ended up being a little like 1971.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 19 Dec 2013 00:02

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 607471.cms

Diplomat's arrest: John Kerry calls NSA Shivshankar Menon, expresses 'regret'

WASHINGTON: US secretary of sate John Kerry called on national security adviser Shivshankar Menon and voiced regret about the case of Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade being strip-searched after her arrest last week on charges of visa fraud, the US state department said on Wednesday.

"As a father of two daughters about the same age as Devyani Khobragade, the secretary empathizes with the sensitivities we are hearing from India about the events that unfolded after Khobragade's arrest," state department spokeswoman Marie Harf said in a written statement, referring to the Indian diplomat.

"In his conversation with national security adviser (Shivshankar) Menon, he expressed his regret, as well as his concern that we not allow this unfortunate public issue to hurt our close and vital relationship with India," Harf added.

SO that makes orifice probing OK now ...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Dec 2013 00:06

Wait a minute, NSA is not a Cabinet Minster why this breach of protocol?

Salman Khursid is the right person to apologise first.

First apologise to the lady and revoke all those stupid cases.

And what is this BS of not hurt ties with India? What ties when every Indian diplomat from Ambassador down is subject to humilating behavior by the US?

First get your act together and learn to respect Vienna convetion if you expect to be treated well.

Also just cancelling liquor permists brought them to talk about the incident?

And what about the State Dept spokeswoman repeated insistence that US was right in doing the cavity searches?

Was she lying? If Kerry expresses regret for it now? That means the spokeperson has zero credibility and cannot continue to be in her job.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 19 Dec 2013 00:07

On regret:

Remeber when Osama was killed and TSPians raised a hell that their national hero was killed and wanted US to apologize? even at that time US "regretted" never apologized.

And who wants to lousy apology anyway?

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 19 Dec 2013 00:09

So, nothing.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 19 Dec 2013 00:11

Ramana's point about Mayawati being "right" makes me wonder about something else.

If this were simply a case of trying to bash India on "human rights/human trafficking" grounds, Preet Bharara and co. could have selected ANY Indian diplomat. I'm sure many of them hire domestic help from India, and would have been vulnerable under the same "visa fraud" technicality.

Certainly the India-baiters would have had a nicer story for the media, if they'd selected someone who was an Upper Caste Hindoo. Yet, they went for Devayani... an SC... specifically. Which means that there was a need for Devayani to be specifically targeted. The placement of Sangeeta Richards as a maid in her home, the coincidental service of Richards' in-laws at the homes of US diplomats in India, only lend further credence to the idea that this is not some general high-handedness around "human trafficking."

The main questions to be answered now:

1) On what grounds were Philip Richard (Sangeeta's husband) and his child brought into police custody?
2) Once detained, upon whose orders (and after how long) were they released?
3) Once released, how did they obtain US visas? Isn't there a check-box on the US Visa Application Form to specify whether one has ever been arrested for criminal activity in one's home state?
4) Once they obtained US visas, how were they allowed to leave the country by Emigration Officials?

Who pulled these strings? Too many clearances from high places WITHIN India were required for all of this to happen. Is the GOI's loud-mouthed reaction to the Devayani arrest, also a diversion to avoid these questions being asked?

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 19 Dec 2013 00:12

ramana wrote:Wait a minute, NSA is not a Cabinet Minster why this breach of protocol?

.

Yes. It's like Saul Berenson apologizing to Majid Javadi

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 19 Dec 2013 00:13

Wishy washy words and a big ghanta in terms of substance, not to mention him calling Menon instead of MEA. Not to mention insert of line - 'everyone serving here has to follow local us laws'.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Dec 2013 00:19

I think and it will come out later, SSMji was in the loop of the Richards family getting out of India to avoid a diplomatic incident. Looks like he was dobule crossed and hence the call to him.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 19 Dec 2013 00:22

Looks like the US was lying when it said India was informed in september about impending action against the consul-general...

Devyani case: It's all a maid-in-US conspiracy, India says

...
While not confirmed, it is believed the Richards family has been sent to US on a visa category that is reserved for victims of human trafficking, provided they assist the US authorities in the case. In other words, the ground was carefully created to arrest Khobragade. And the US didn't believe its strategic partner but an absconding maid — something that's being regarded here as an act of hostility.
...
...
Meanwhile, MEA refuted US official Nisha Desai-Biswal's contention that the Indian mission was informed of the issue in September. Calling it "dead wrong", MEA said it was India which first informed the US about the disappearance of the maid. India warned the US of the possibility of a visa fraud by Richards. Instead, it was astonished to find the US has actually facilitated it.
...
...
Between June, when Richards disappeared from Khobragade's house on the pretext of shopping, to November, when an arrest warrant was issued for her by a Delhi sessions court, the Indian government made repeated complaints and representations to the US authorities (see timeline). Each time the Indians were given no response or cooperation from the US side. On September 21, the US state department in a letter said there were "allegations" against Khobragade, for which they wanted her to come to the state department to clarify.

The MEA responded with a strongly worded letter detailing the charges against the maid, her disappearance and the developments. The US side clammed up. The Indian government also found it very strange that Richards' husband, Philip, initially filed a missing persons report about his wife but later withdrew it.
....

Vamsee · Post by **Vamsee** » 19 Dec 2013 00:22

Rudradev ji,

You need to tweet your questions so that others can retweet.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Dec 2013 00:23

Incident happened on Dec 10th yet with two adult daughters of same age as Mrs Khobargade, Kerry took a week to express his regrets!

And again what close and vital relationship?

Where are the evidences for the above sentiment?

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 19 Dec 2013 00:24

^^^ What could the diplomatic incident be that would require the richards family to leave.
Any parallels

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 19 Dec 2013 00:26

Frederic wrote:
Rudradev wrote:
As Lokesh ji observes, Khobragade's daughter will not be allowed to return to India due to confiscation of her passport by US authorities. Now wouldn't that be a classic way to pressure an opponent whose investigations were getting too close for comfort... by holding his daughter hostage (after having shown, through strip-searches and other public humiliation, how far they are willing to violate her?)

It is important to arrest at least a couple of massan staffers. The time is right now. Otherwise we have zero bargaining power. We can keep removing the traffic barriers til kingdom come but as long as DK's passport is in massan hands, her hasslefree return to desh can and will be used as a pressure point.

I don't get this Her passport would be issued by India. India. Consul in NYC can simply cancel the "confiscated" passport and issue a brand new one in about 5 min.

The hassle for DK is that police at JFK will stop her from boarding a flight, claiming that sheis skipping bail.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 19 Dec 2013 00:27

Who cares for Kerry's regrets? What we need is to get Devyani Khobragade and her family out of the US. Kerry can stuff his regrets unless he is willing to accept that she has Diplomatic immunity.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 19 Dec 2013 00:30

Actually the US has taken a huge risk by treating a diplomat in such a way. It will have an impact on how the international community will prepare their diplomats for US visits. Wonder what would warrant such a risk and impact?

There is nothing that could not have been accomplished more discreetly. I am beginning to think that this was a miscalculation on their part.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Dec 2013 00:31

utterly insincere statement. if GOI finds this acceptable we will know there has been either a surrender or a got-up.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 19 Dec 2013 00:38

I hope Congress and MEA both realize exactly what this is. if we let this slide, it won't be long before our diplomats in Pakistan are put through similar ordeals.

we are this close to having our people "legally" raped. if US can get away with this, Pakistan will not be far behind. and neither will any of the other Islamic countries.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 19 Dec 2013 00:40

If this was a diplo of any other country (esp Bakistan) it would have been very entertaining. But this incident has disturbed the hell out of me

.

I am 50-50 considering possibility of either a "savage civilizing mission" gone wrong or that DK has some highly valuable intel.

Espionage coverups are usually very subtle and never this loud, unless the US is the one that was on the receiving end.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 19 Dec 2013 00:42

devesh wrote:I hope Congress and MEA both realize exactly what this is. if we let this slide, it won't be long before our diplomats in Pakistan are put through similar ordeals.

we are this close to having our people "legally" raped. if US can get away with this, Pakistan will not be far behind. and neither will any of the other Islamic countries.

This will impact US more than Indian diplomats. Most countries understand quid pro quo and dont want to muddy diplomatic waters.
Think, a country where emissaries of other nations are not safe from the state itself. This is not some terrorist group but the state itself that has violated the precepts of diplomacy.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 19 Dec 2013 00:43

"Regret" what does that even mean in this context. Complete nonsense.

One thing is sure. The window of retaliation is coming to a close. India better move quickly when there is seething anger to act and not wait for appealing to the "goodness" in Americans. A meaningless apology will cripple the administration very quickly.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 19 Dec 2013 00:44

regret meaning, shove it and shut up.

munna · Post by **munna** » 19 Dec 2013 00:48

An ambassador's son and doyen of Indian strategic firmament's grandson defended the US actions with usual platitudes and vitality of relations excuse. As far as our outgoing PM, M of EA and even some sections of FS go, we really do not have much to look upto. An honest officer has been scarred and at times like these do I feel the need for a Mayawati in office

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 19 Dec 2013 00:50

^^ We are truly a nation of gungadeen House N****s

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Dec 2013 00:50

munna ji, who ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Dec 2013 00:57

KS' grandson. And his father is current Ambassodor to US and thus DK's boss.

Also what about the subterfuge of issuing vvisa to tthe maid's family and ensuring they are in US before the arrest?

There is covert action here to which US SD is part and participle. Does regret aalso encomapss all these transgressions?

--Again what vital and close relationship> Will the US go and embrace China or the Pakis? Let them. They always chose the wrong side of history.
See all the hype about idolozing Mandela while keepin ghis name on terrorist list ill 2006!

Munna, If you please may be we all can see if any of the wisdom has passed on or not?

What are his arguments for so far all I hear is platitudes and not much real substance as to what was the "close and vital relationship" which subjects Indian diplomats to repeated humiliations and constant demands to open up the Indian economy to expensive US products which cant be sold elsehwere? And dont support Afghans to be able to handle the Taliban terrorists supported by double crossing Pakis!!!

As to H1B visas its the US companies after all are also benefitting by getting top quality talent for substandard wages. Maybe they should reduce the H1B quota while the US economy is still recovering and send back the Indian engineers.

Most likely outcome will be the US companies will move to India.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Dec 2013 01:00

thx. we remain the proverbial hanuman, blissfully unaware of our potential.

‏@KanchanGupta

Yes. Strangely worded / punctuated statement that could be construed to mean Kerry regrets India's response.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 19 Dec 2013 01:05

Kerry regretted to NSA because he is part of MMS coterie. This is way beyond MMS & his minions now.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 19 Dec 2013 01:07

Just wait until Modi is PM. Things will really get interesting then. We may wind up with a relationship like we have with Venezuela. That is to say none.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 19 Dec 2013 01:08

TSJones wrote:Just wait until Modi is PM. Things will really get interesting then. We may wind up with a relationship like we have with Venezuela. That is to say none.

I think that is better than the deadly embrace of the Borg.

komal · Post by **komal** » 19 Dec 2013 01:10

Rudradev wrote:There was a case in the 1970s where an Indian couple living in New York were murdered (yes, murdered) by their domestic help. The domestic help was acquitted by an American jury because he claimed persecution, underpayment, abuse and what not. He had converted to a certain religion (whose functionaries provided him with all the legal help he could want). After his acquittal, he married an American and continued to live there.

So this isn't exactly an old story.

I believe this is the case to which you make reference. (Warning: will nauseate the civilized)

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 29,5594988

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 19 Dec 2013 01:12

TSJones wrote:Just wait until Modi is PM. Things will really get interesting then. We may wind up with a relationship like we have with Venezuela. That is to say none.

Dude, why do you post one-liners that have no value? In this case, US is behaving worse than Venezuela under Chavez. At least Chavez did not illegally arrest and strip search US diplomats for no reason

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Dec 2013 01:19

TSJones wrote:Just wait until Modi is PM. Things will really get interesting then. We may wind up with a relationship like we have with Venezuela. That is to say none.

It might be better for all of us.US will have all those high tech programmer jobs and all our idiots will stay in India and not preach from the US!

BTW hat tip to you on the spider sense of the human trafficking angle for that was the visa given to the maid's family to travel out of India and be in the witness program. You were the only one to figrue out how the US govt mind thinks.

So it was quite well co-ordinated and the poor Indians did not know what hit them and they flailed miserably.

And a non-regret statement is enough to assauge the new Gungadins in Delhi.

And as for Modi as PM maybe both countries need not be in so "close and vital relationship' where US facilitates China to transfer nukes to TSP while preaching India non-proliferation.

better to have no relationship than one where one side tries its best to stunt the other by hook or crook, and mostly the latter.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 19 Dec 2013 01:21

All those removed barricades stopping traffic flow should be a permanent thing. Since US does not reciprocate with exceptions that India has made for all their consular staff in Dilli and other cities, all those removed privileges should also stay for a long time. The pain has to be felt longer than after the crisis blows over with apologies and full immunity for the concerned diplomat. This is not over yet by any yardstick to simply move on.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 19 Dec 2013 01:27

ramana wrote:
TSJones wrote:Just wait until Modi is PM. Things will really get interesting then. We may wind up with a relationship like we have with Venezuela. That is to say none.

It might be better for all of us.US will have all those high tech programmer jobs and all our idiots will stay in India and not preach from the US!

BTW hat tip to you on the spider sense of the human trafficking angle for that was the visa given to the maid's family to travel out of India and be in the witness program. You were the only one to figrue out how the US govt mind thinks.

So it was quite well co-ordinated and the poor Indians did not know what hit them and they flailed miserably.

And a non-regret statement is enough to assauge the new Gungadins in Delhi.

And as for Modi as PM maybe both countries need not be in so "close and vital relationship' where US facilitates China to transfer nukes to TSP while preaching India non-proliferation.

better to have no relationship than one where one side tries its best to stunt the other by hook or crook, and mostly the latter.

It's kinda sad really, because we were on the cusp of a good military relationship, which is my main interest. Shared weapons, etc.

Oh well. Maybe someday.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 19 Dec 2013 01:54

TSJ. So is mine (and I believe many many folks on this forum who are here primarily because of fascination with weapons). But a fair relationship is when both parties consider each other equal and treat each other the way they treat themselves. When that basic tenet of human nature is not followed in this case, we are better off without having a relationship.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 19 Dec 2013 01:54

How can it even be called trafficking? Was she bringing boatloads of people into US illegally taking money from them? The maid clearly signed two contracts that she was aware of. At best, this was a contractual pay dispute, a civil matter. Why bring trafficking into it? She was not coerced or bullied to sign up.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 19 Dec 2013 02:02

http://www.searchindia.net/images/sib/d ... plaint.pdf
It Was DSS who pursued the case.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 19 Dec 2013 02:08

^^^ FYI, the owner of that site is a Category5 Gungaedeen who also hate People from AP with a zeal.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 19 Dec 2013 02:19

Some how, a nickel and dime charge over an unruly servant that could have been quitely settled, became a US district court federal indictment, arrests of a family member, arrest of diplomat, human trafficking travel permits, and an international incident.

One thing is for sure, when it comes to domestic disputes either paid servants or husband and wife, things quickly get out of hand. US cops hate responding to them because tempers are out of control. It gets vicious.

I don't know what was going on in the diplomat's mind when she was fighting this, but now, her name is mud diplomatically. No US diplo will seriously deal with her unless she controls India's nuclear forces. Was it worth all of this? Good grief!

Back to your usual CTs ..