Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

[Cyrano]

Couriously, N°1 spot Hotan is in Xinjiang near Tibet, was called Gosthana in ancient times. Has a large PLAAF airbase. Why does Hotan have so much pollution, so far away from mainland coast mfg hubs?!! Apparently largely due to desert sandstorms that increase greatly suspended particulate matter (PM) in the air.

SPM a major cause of visible pollution in India as well, our semi-arid climate and low green cover kicks up enormous amounts of dust (containing organic & inorganic matter) in and outside cities. This website reports data on PM 2.5 and SPM10 - presumably 2.5 microns and 10 microns thick particles, and also on O3 - Ozone, NO2 - Nitrogen di oxide, SO2 - Sulphur Dioxide and CO - Carbon monoxide. PM may be unsightly, coat everything with dust, cause irritations and asthmas etc, but the other gases are more potent killers over time. These gases mostly come from automobiles and industries.

I couldn't make out if this ranking focuses only on PM2.5 or combines all the above for a composite score, with what weightages assigned to each. The website doesnt specify the data collection and analysis methods. Also its a pity one cant rank cities on other parameters and see.

Not so say India is any less polluted than it really is, but a mere SPM based index is misleading. This website is a bit dubious in its purpose since it doesn't clarify its data sources or its scientific methodology.

Oh wait, its a front for a business that sells air purifiers - thats why it focuses only on PM. With the Swiss cross in the logo triggering subconscious images of beautiful Swiss mountain's clean air and scare you to death with orange and read colours for your cities to sell cheap made in China air purifiers (basically a low power fan + filter).

Clever thinly disguised marketing

Caveat emptor !!

[Haresh]

The floor is lava

https://www.reuters.com/graphics/CLIMAT ... pormdkevd/

Athens tackles heat and pollution with pocket-sized parks

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-gree ... SKBN2B320F

[Manish_P]

...

Athens tackles heat and pollution with pocket-sized parks

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-gree ... SKBN2B320F

Few cities in India (via the municipal corporation funding and legislation) are trying the Miyakawi method

https://www.creatingtomorrowsforests.co ... ng-forests

Mumbai city - A mini-forest boom is taking over Mumbai. It’s called Miyawaki, Delhi is rushing in too

In January this year, BMC issued an order directing all real estate developments over 10,000 square metres to reserve five per cent of their space for Miyawaki plantations.

Another article from Mumbai - Two Years On, Miyawaki Forest In Mumbai Is Showing The Way For Other Cities On Urban Jungles

[tandav]

Pertinent to the Urban Forestry Discussion. Here is an interesting concept that integrates human spaces with miyawaki type forestry called Peacock Ecocity that operates with a nature first principle.

The central green space is surrounded by human built spaces. The central recycling forest provides the following ecosystem services to the community 1) Rainwater harvesting 2) Mitigates Urban Heat Island Effects via transpirational cooling 3) Treats and recycles waste water 4) Treats and recycles biodegradable solid waste 5) Provides dust abatement by leaves of the foliage 6) Provides a ecosystem for small arboreal wildlife such as squirrels, rabbits, peacocks, pheasant, parrots, foxes. 7) Provides a natural recreation space for the residents



An example of a project using the concept has been executed by Panchshil Realty in Pune
https://www.panchshil.com/yoopune/

[Haresh]

I posted this link elsewhere, about an organisation which deals with street cleaning and introducing systems.

https://theuglyindian.com/

and also this, systems have to be introduced.

NYT writer is absolutely right: Delhi is literally a shithole; but so is all of India

https://www.firstpost.com/india/nyt-wri ... 72904.html

The other thing I noticed in Delhi and Punjab and other states was the amount of left over building rubble. just dumped. It can be crushed and made into new building material. Plenty of machines available. Is it really beyond the ability of local administrations to purchase these ?
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=rock+crushing ... 2-1&ia=web

The impression I got when talking to people about these issues is that they consider it beneath them to even think or talk about it, let alone do something about it. Do Indian politicians ever say publicly "India is dirty we have to clean it up and change our habits??"

[Suraj]

Do Indian politicians ever say publicly "India is dirty we have to clean it up and change our habits??"

They do and at least on one facet - open defacation - they've dramatically improved the picture over a decade.
Swachh Bharat Mission Dashboard

PS: Topic moved out of economy thread.

[Hriday]

Slight off topic. I searched and couldn't find if the Saudi project, 'The Line' is discussed here.

It is a vertical city model that is worth considering for India, at least on a small scale.

Saudi Arabia is bringing a new concept in the making of urban centres.
They are building a massive vertical city called 'The Line'. Instead of building a city horizontally on the land they are building a complete city almost vertically. The project consists of two 170 km long parallel rectangular buildings with a uniform height of half a kilometre. The total width of the two rectangular blocks together is 200 metres. They claim a better lifestyle and clean atmosphere.

Schools, universities, workplaces, shopping, recreation and green parks, hospitals, everything can be accessed from anyone's home within 5 minute's walk. No roads or vehicles; instead, escalators and lift systems are provided. There is an underground high-speed rail for long-distance travel.

It can house 90 lakh people. Presently the plan is to complete 5 miles of it by 2030. Even if it stops there, just think what a spectacular sight it will be! The video given below is a must-watch. It stirs the human imagination.

When I went through the comments on their video, I saw comments from experts that suggest that it is too ambitious. Even if it is a partial success it can be a model for other countries.

They had released a cool-looking video of the project. Link below.

One interesting snippet - when I sent the description of this project to a relative, she replied that Sadhguru had mentioned that in the future, humans will live in a small space, leaving a large area of land uninhabited.

https://youtu.be/0kz5vEqdaSc?feature=shared

[Cyrano]

The line is the worst possible thing ever imagined. Blocked waste water pipes, fire hazard, bacterial or viral contamination, terr0r attacks... none of these scenarios have been thought of it seems. Lots of consultants made a lot of money and a fool out of MBS.

[Supratik]

Now that the BJP is in full control of Delhi and NCR as well as central govt there is no more excuse not to turn the region into a world class UA. They need to do these 3 things within the next 10 years 1) Implement Swacch Bharat mission. Except for some posh areas I have not seen another capital region which is so filthy. Indore model should be followed. Delhi is clean in parts and filthy in parts. Noida and Gurgaon similar. Gaziabad and Faridabad are even worse. There does not seem to be any proper waste collection and waste disposal system. It is all Ad hoc. 2) Complete all infrastructure projects. Many projects like RRTS are stuck. 3) Go for massive redevelopment of slums, ghettos and unauthorized colonies. Make it mandatory.
MAy be use Mumbai model with 70% consent of residents. It is sad to see a capital area in such a state.

[Suraj]

Contributed this article to SwarajyaMag:
Hacking the Human Development Index: Why UNDP's Latest HDI Scores For India Are Misleading

[Hriday]

Don't know how much of the claim by him is true. In the video, he said that concrete houses last less than 100 years, but his zero-cement stone house would last more than 1000 years. A quick Google search results give around 100 years for a concrete house. Assuming this zero cement house lasts only 500 years, it will not depreciate much value in a few generations, unlike other concrete buildings. It may be worth considering for mass usage.
He claims he had a patent on this.
The Instagram account of the introducer is in the reply to the X post.

https://x.com/nehaGurung1692/status/190 ... IyY7A&s=19

India is truly incredible! The house will stand for thousands years
The Worlds first zero-cement stone house in Bangalore, India

[RamSuresh]

Temples stand for 100s of years. Durability of stone construction is well established. Ayodhya temple also does not use concrete. That said, the use case for even 100 years for residential building is thin.

[Hriday]

^^
Such a house need not be destroyed to build a new one, that is the point. The seller gets a decent price, and it is even possible that there is an appreciation in value depending on the local factors.

[Cyrano]

The appreciation in most properties actually comes from land value shooting up, not from the construction which depreciates due to wear & tear unless its of historical or architectural interest, or built when regulations were different in the past (for ex beachfronts or in reserved areas).
Location location location!

[ernest]

Don't know how much of the claim by him is true. In the video, he said that concrete houses last less than 100 years, but his zero-cement stone house would last more than 1000 years. A quick Google search results give around 100 years for a concrete house. Assuming this zero cement house lasts only 500 years, it will not depreciate much value in a few generations, unlike other concrete buildings. It may be worth considering for mass usage.
He claims he had a patent on this.
The Instagram account of the introducer is in the reply to the X post.

We learnt this in first year of engineering. The life of modern concrete + steel reinforcement construction is limited by the deterioration of reinforcement, which puts it around 60-100 years. Centuries old stone, mortar or even only concrete construction does not have this issue, and can work well for a lot longer. He is not saying something that is not well known. In fact, we moved to reinforcement based concrete construction despite this downside, because the benefits outweigh them. Concrete with steel reinforcement takes way less material, is cheaper, and can provide bigger spans. It comes out to be cheaper in the long term as well. Most utilitarian buildings will have to be renovated in 50ish years to accommodate growing needs, shifts in technology, etc.

It may be worth considering for mass usage

It will not be, as we moved away from this. It will never be affordable. In the video, they mention the method of stone extraction, which is manual and expensive. If we come up with a cheap composite, which achieves the benefits of reinforcement from some natural long lasting mineral, then we can perhaps have such designs for the masses.

That said, people who can afford fully stone built houses, should definitely try it, as it looks cool, and you can pass it your future generations almost unchanged.

[sanjaykumar]

I, for one, am done with justifications and rationalisations for India's abysmal economic and educational performance.
The place just doesn't have the culture to succeed. Where others have; Taiwan, Japan, Korea, even Thailand and Malaysia.

[sanjaykumar]

And of course I have omitted China. Not in the same league.

[Vayutuvan]

Some more justification. I am a shemless India apologist.

Taiwan is thron US maintains in the side of China. Japan and Korea are protected by the US military might. Thailand is dictatorship of sorts. Malaysia has this bumiputera concept. Had India instituted similar policy in WB, Assam, and NE we wouldn't have had so many illegal BDs living off India's largess. A lot off money going to Kashmir starved other states of development money.

The difference I see is that India got independence through peaceful means whereas others fought for independence. That made them tougher. In India, dignity of labor is missing.

[Vayutuvan]

And of course I have omitted China. Not in the same league.

Totalitarian.

[gakakkad]

Sanjaykumar sounds like a strict desi parent . I can't dare think what would happen to your kids when they get a B.

[sanjaykumar]

It is something more fundamental than economic development.

It is culture. The culture of civic sense to not litter. To realise that perhaps people’s religious celebrations should not be stone pelted, that garbage should not be allowed to ferment in the streets, that road safety is a thing, that brainlessly haranguing hardworking Bihari poor people in the Deep South is a type of mental illness, that castigating low caste people for their colour is a type of mental illness, that there is no reason why the orange pall over Mumbai should not have been cleared as for Los Angeles in the 1970s, that perhaps a brain is missing if one lights fires in panjab fields that turn Delhi into a toxic dump for weeks.

[sanjaykumar]

I do not mean to reprimand ‘Dravidians ‘ alone in the above.

I have seen the contempt off the jatt for the ‘paiya’ ie bhaiyya.

While the UP wala toils in his fields, the jatt lord takes his ofeem chased down with cheap whisky.

Yes there are many deficiencies in any society. Many of the most successful ones ‘dine and taste the blood in the victuals’ to use the bhagavat gita’s immortal words.

The yellow man has only one ambition, to prove he is better than the round eyed devil. What is India’s goal? No doubt it is loftier and nobler. Are we there yet?

[sanjaykumar]

Vayutuvan ji, I have been thinking about your comment. The high demands apply equally to myself.

I recall I did not take one of the more advanced courses in organic chemistry because I did not want to chance not making an A+.

So much for mental illness, I guess.

[tandav]

It is something more fundamental than economic development.

It is culture. The culture of civic sense to not litter. To realise that perhaps people’s religious celebrations should not be stone pelted, that garbage should not be allowed to ferment in the streets, that road safety is a thing, that brainlessly haranguing hardworking Bihari poor people in the Deep South is a type of mental illness, that castigating low caste people for their colour is a type of mental illness, that there is no reason why the orange pall over Mumbai should not have been cleared as for Los Angeles in the 1970s, that perhaps a brain is missing if one lights fires in panjab fields that turn Delhi into a toxic dump for weeks.

I concur. Something is culturally rotten in India and we have no real inclination towards excellence and hard work. We have to collectively hold a mirror to ourselves and change. Forget trying to compete with China, I am fairly certain that most African nations who are currently less developed may soon have a quality of life far superior to what India can achieve with its social, governance apparatus.

[Cyrano]

^^^Have to agree. Cleanliness of public spaces even in well to do areas (while everyone deserves and needs a clean environment) in our cities is appalling. Littering everywhere, absence of dustbins, garbage collection, sorting and disposal systems, waste water treatment, industrial effluents polluting air, water and ground, spit marks everywhere... until when we will be like this only?
One hydrogen powered train is great, but all the rest is depressing.

[A_Gupta]

Isn't there another thread, other than the Economy News & Discussion, for the "something culturally rotten about India"? (If even discussion threads are littered, what to speak of physical spaces?)

[sanjaykumar]

That’s exactly the culture. Not here, not now not, my problem. Shabaash

[Cyrano]

Hey sorry guys, yes there is a clean India thread which is more appropriate.

[S_Madhukar]

That’s exactly the culture. Not here, not now not, my problem. Shabaash

We have to thank left ecosystem for hijacking our values. The rot started soon after independence. But surrender happened when so called patriots allowed Lehru to ascend to the throne and kept the Abdul inside the house. What cowardice, pushing difficult decisions to next generation! Lack of infrastructure meant every state and village was for itself, no one could really experience Bharat and take its ownership and then foreign interference did the rest. All is not lost, I see people commenting on old movies on YT and lamenting how clean our cities used to be or how decent a people we were. May be there is hope.

[Adrija]

It is something more fundamental than economic development.

It is culture. .......turn Delhi into a toxic dump for weeks.

Sanjay ji, it's NOT about culture, but governance.... our entire administrative set up was designed by the British for a completely different purpose which we have for some reason persisted with. The system is designed to exclude local accountability. We actually still lack genuine democracy and are still a colony albeit now a self-governing one, which is why we have no concept of local self-government... cleanliness of local places is best done by locally responsive and accountable government....

Given that this is the economics thread I will leave it at that

Thanks

[ritesh]

+1 Adrija

[KL Dubey]

I do not mean to reprimand ‘Dravidians ‘ alone in the above.

I have seen the contempt off the jatt for the ‘paiya’ ie bhaiyya.

While the UP wala toils in his fields, the jatt lord takes his ofeem chased down with cheap whisky.

Yes there are many deficiencies in any society. Many of the most successful ones ‘dine and taste the blood in the victuals’ to use the bhagavat gita’s immortal words.

The yellow man has only one ambition, to prove he is better than the round eyed devil. What is India’s goal? No doubt it is loftier and nobler. Are we there yet?

Please outline your own plans and current efforts (beyond criticism on BRF) to contribute towards removal of "social evils" and upliftment of national consciousness/excellence-seeking ?

[ernest]

Sanjay ji, it's NOT about culture, but governance.... our entire administrative set up was designed by the British for a completely different purpose which we have for some reason persisted with. The system is designed to exclude local accountability. We actually still lack genuine democracy and are still a colony albeit now a self-governing one, which is why we have no concept of local self-government... cleanliness of local places is best done by locally responsive and accountable government....

Given that this is the economics thread I will leave it at that

Thanks

Exactly. Indian govt has been missing in people's lives except for collecting revenue and punishment for most of our independent history. It has only since we grew a little wealthy that the govt is reaching people. We are still short on some governance and public health & safety metrics, but will slowly get there. But blaming it on culture will derail and delay our progress. Culture, IMO, is a lazy excuse for not working hard to diagnose the problem. It also breeds pessimism which is bad for overall growth. Culture at least in public hygiene is downstream of government policy, specifically law enforcement and education (see how Singapore fixed its "third world culture").

In Accelerating India's Development, Karthik Muralidharan contrasts our budget for local bodies w.r.t other countries (ours is way low). We perform poorly in areas of local govt responsibility ( local roads, sanitation, housing regulation, etc.), while perform relatively well (for our income level) in central govt led areas like Space, Defence (I know it is not a popular opinion), Telecom, Financial regulation, etc.

[sanjaykumar]

I agree it all has to do with funding and accountability. But these are merely the proximate causes. The root cause is not addressed.

There is nothing unique about these characteristics. China had to have government drives to teach its multitudes not to spit.

The problem is privilege. And ….well I will leave the rest for inference. The privileged live in clean sometimes fastidiously clean houses. They cook according to literally religious standards.

Yet when they step outside, it can look apocalyptic only a few steps beyond their door step. Because that is public space….where ‘they’ live.

[sanjaykumar]

Of course, it’s precisely so with education.

[sanjayc]

It is something more fundamental than economic development.

It is culture. .......turn Delhi into a toxic dump for weeks.

Sanjay ji, it's NOT about culture, but governance.... our entire administrative set up was designed by the British for a completely different purpose which we have for some reason persisted with. The system is designed to exclude local accountability. We actually still lack genuine democracy and are still a colony albeit now a self-governing one, which is why we have no concept of local self-government... cleanliness of local places is best done by locally responsive and accountable government....

Given that this is the economics thread I will leave it at that

Thanks

Right. With the same culture, India was the richest country in the world for 2,000 years, with staggering achievements in culture, science, arts, literature, spirituality and all other areas of human endevor. It is actually the greatest civilization humanity has ever produced.

[sanjaykumar]

I lost that reverence for the culture when I found myself echoing the same sentiments as a firangi who had to leave India ‘because of all the sh!tting and spitting’

And me with my misophonia. I have to laugh.

[sanjaykumar]

For those of us in the new world, culture is what you bring over from the old country.

One of the airport lounges I frequent, in a very large city, had a recent change in management/ownership. What was once a pleasant experience with unobtrusive service and an orderly environment, is now a place where soiled dishes are piled high on some of the tables and for over an hour. The carpet is littered, the staff can be heard clearly exchanging gossip in the vernacular.

It is not that they want to provide an unpleasant experience. They are so inured to such conditions that they do not see the problems.

So when the inglaand-returned dare to make some suggestions, it is taken as affront.

Of course now a days inglaand looks more like Lahore in many parts,

[vera_k]

Coincidentally was following a thread on Reddit where someone was planning on how to flee to India from the UK in an emergency, since their home near London was almost engulfed by a riot.

But to your point, there are township scale bubbles within India that are first world. But they are expensive to be admitted into and maintain. Which leads me to think that more prosperity will change things for the better because more resources will be available.

FWIW, water bodies in the west were full of sewage until after WW2 when things started to get cleaned up. And some places in the west were not universally treating sewage even in the 21st century (looking at Canada!), again for economic reasons.

[sanjaykumar]

There are many magical places in India, and not necessarily because they are wealthy enclaves.

There are certainly possibly insurmountable problems everywhere. Compare Miami to the Deep South small towns on highway 61.

India does not have the luxury of waiting to grow rich before some of these fundamental issues are sorted. A minimal education and mutualism will accomplish wonders.

I do not expect Muslim majority areas to become any different. Because the residents do not have a sense of ownership of Bharat.

But the majority Hindus can be appealed to. Modi of course tried and I cannot commend his photo ops with a broom enough.