Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 23 Jan 2009 07:46

Nihat wrote:apart from that the ATV is coming up well enough.

How would you know that?

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 23 Jan 2009 10:35

I know that a miniaturized reactor was fitted into it which was a major hurdle overcome and ATV was due to be launched on republic day but now it's delayed till May , so there is good reason to believe that's is coming together well enough , who can anticipate the future though and god forbid something was to go wrong.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 23 Jan 2009 15:58

parshuram wrote:i will call this a stupidity rather on there part as they are the ones who need aid not US . with US is whole west and ofocurse a significant east {middle east } as well and if they bluntly say like this they surely will be alone with china who is not US !!!

yes,you are right but china will help out pakistan as they need to contain India. as they did with a More autocratic,poverty ridden North Korea, to contain South Korea and Japan and to some extent US.

they went so far that they even tried to make NK a new Nuke Power with delivery systems.

sorry for OT but this is something which we should keep watch for the next few years,MORE Chinese presence in South Asia, a New worry for India and US interests in the region. a new axis of evil Iran,Pakistan,China,North Korea

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 23 Jan 2009 20:55

Though cause for worry can be easily handled by the established and newly emerging allies like Israel/India/Japan/South Korea/Australia/US.

Uri_T · Post by **Uri_T** » 25 Jan 2009 23:25

HI
I am new here
my name is uri i live in Haifa Israel
served in the IDF armor corps

I want some information about Pakistan pilots involved in the YOM KIPPUR War
1973 fighting with the Syrians or after the war

http://idf-armor.blogspot.com/

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Jan 2009 23:26

Hi Uri,
Guess you were allowed to keep your seperate thread. Please continue there itself.

My bad

swapna · Post by **swapna** » 26 Jan 2009 02:26

http://www.sumo.tv/watch.php?video=2368949

Aird Defence system of pakistan ,looks similar to Indias

arun · Post by **arun** » 26 Jan 2009 12:13

Procedures used by the Pakistan Army in Bangladesh remains very much alive:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
AHRC-STM-012-2009
January 12, 2009
A Statement by the Asian Human Rights Commission

PAKISTAN: Young women held in military torture cells and forced into sexual slavery

LINK

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 26 Jan 2009 13:59

Uri_T wrote:HI
I am new here
my name is uri i live in Haifa Israel
served in the IDF armor corps

I want some information about Pakistan pilots involved in the YOM KIPPUR War
1973 fighting with the Syrians or after the wa

http://idf-armor.blogspot.com/

Are ya planning to KO them? Bless you!!!

Maybe you'll consider putting your question here: Deaf and Dumb. Oh! and don't forget to tell them you're from Israel and want names, photos and addresses to put on your blog onlee.

But jokes apart, you have a very good collection on the Blog! Great effort.

Added later: Try these
'Shahbaz' over Golan
A Sword For Hussain

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jan 2009 14:31

pakistan has a moderately good low level ADGES designed by hughes in the mid-80's.

the protection bubble at low level comprises of crotale, RBS-70 and various AAA and of course the MANPADS like stinger and different examples of the anza series.

at mid level, it is the spada 2000 on duty. it is however the LR-SAM category that is lacking (same with India at the moment but India depends less on SAMs for air defence than pakistan) with only the as of yet unconfirmed HQ-9 sale report to go by.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 26 Jan 2009 16:59

Tactical Uqab UAV detailed

There are two versions of Uqab UAV. One is tactical version of UAV with the flying range of 150km onwards while other one will be a strategic version of the UAV which can go up to 350km onwards. Both tactical and strategic versions of UAV systems can undertake a pre-programmed mission or can be piloted by the Air Vehicle Controller. The strategic version of the UAV has the capability to adapt to the change of mission during the flight. It can transmit information and data through ground control station and can even change the flight path, height and speed according to the situation.There were three companies that competed and offered their UAS systems for the tactical version of Uqab UAV to Pakistan army.

Advanced Computing and Engineering Solutions ACES displayed its Eagle-Eye-P1 UAV and also exhibited the ground Control Station (GCS) from which it is controlled. The Eagle Eye-P1 tactical UAV has an 80km range, 3hr endurance, and 120km max speed. Tracking is GPS based, and it carries a 30kg payload of a 'pan, tilt & zoom' video camera for real time digital video surveillance. The Eagle Eye PI/II systems are both runway dependent. Eagle Eye-P1 with a 16.5ft span and 130kg MTOW flew for the first time in 2002, Eagle Eye-PII have 18.9ft span, MTOW of 175kg PII followed in 2005.

ACES's Eagle Eye-P2 tactical UAV has a 100km range, 4hr endurance, and 150km max speed. Tracking is GPS based, and it carries a 40kg payload of a video camera and telemetry system for real time digital video surveillance. It is controlled from a GCS.

Albadeey also displayed two surveillance UAVs, the Hud Hud II and Hud Hud III. The Hud Hud III is an enlarged version of the Hud Hud II with greater endurance (6hrs) and range (100km). It can carry a 40kg payload which is usually a high resolution CCD camera, GPS, and frequency modulated L Band video transmitter.

All the competitors have 100km operational radius which is less than required 150km. ACES's Eagle Eye-PI/II tactical UAVs were selected by the for further development under name Uqab tactical UAV. It took another year to fully meet the requirement and then user trials started in 2007 by Pakistan army. On March 20 Thursday, 2008 it was declared by the ISPR that Pakistan successfully conducted a final test flight of its indigenously-developed Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV). Chief of the Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, senior military officers and scientists witnessed the test of the Uqab

A strategic version of the Uqaab UAV that will go to 350km+ is under development and will need to incorporate advance technologies will soon be ready. Strategic version of the Uqab UAV might be able to attract interest from the Pakistan Air force and Pakistan navy at some time in future. Pakistan navy is looking into acquiring its own squadron of UAV with a SAR for maritime surveillance, with the antenna stored in a large belly fairing.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 29 Jan 2009 12:11

FWIW, here is the blog of Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail. Some information about him from his blogger profile.

About Me

I was commissioned as a pilot in 1975 after my training at PAF Academy, Risalpur. Earlier, I completed my schooling from Cadet College, Hasanabdal. I have had the opportunity of flying several classic fighters including F-6 (MiG-19), F-7P (MiG-21 variant), F-7PG (MiG-21 double-delta variant), Mirage-5, Mirage F-1E and the venerable F-16 Fighting Falcon. I commanded a fighter squadron, a fighter wing and PAF's largest fighter Base at Masroor. When out of the cockpit, I found time to pursue literary activities. 'Great Air Battles of Pakistan Air Force', a book written by me, is a manifestation of my interest in aviation history. I also write for various military journals and newspapers. I retired as an Air Commodore in 2005, after thirty memorable years of service.

Currently, his blog has a total of 22 posts.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 29 Jan 2009 20:34

http://thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=66787

PN to get AEW aircraft and UAVs; Navy Chief
Updated at: 1620 PST, Thursday, January 29, 2009

KARACHI: Pakistan Navy will shortly acquire Airborne Early Warning (AEW) Aircraft and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) to further strengthen its air fleet.

This was announced by Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Noman Bashir, while addressing the induction ceremony of a Fokker aircraft and commissioning of T 56 Engine Test Bench, held at Pakistan Navy Aviation base PNS Mehran here on Thursday.

Chief of Naval Staff further said that the induction of Z 9 helicopters, AEWs and UAVs and additional P 3Cs would be a force multiplier for Naval Air Arm. To enhance the subsurface defence capability, the Naval Chief said contract of Type-214 submarines would be concluded soon.

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 Jan 2009 21:24

Pakistan Navy will shortly acquire Airborne Early Warning (AEW) Aircraft and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) to further strengthen its air fleet.

I would assume that the AEW is the two P3C+Hawkeye radar.
But, which UAVs are they getting exclusively for the navy?
Where are they getting the $$ from?

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 29 Jan 2009 22:36

sum wrote:
Pakistan Navy will shortly acquire Airborne Early Warning (AEW) Aircraft and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) to further strengthen its air fleet.
I would assume that the AEW is the two P3C+Hawkeye radar.
But, which UAVs are they getting exclusively for the navy?
Where are they getting the $$ from?

US of course and i am not too sure about P3C 's paki's have a really itchy bone tucked in . i mean it was expected as India signed for 8 Posideon's .It become 's prestige issue for them that if India is buying we want to show them we also can .. typical Pakistani's

and no wonder president and prime minister of TSP were quoted as sang {to US}. Give us tools and $$'s and we will fight for you .. Paki army is openly saying that they are mercenaries !!!!

namit k · Post by **namit k** » 31 Jan 2009 18:25

during kargil war , there was heightened tension , i saw an interview of a porki gernal, he said that at least 5 of best porki fighter jets are always at standby loaded with nukes,and he said that soon porkland will deploy its missiles like wise. definitely this was muscle flexing , but ain't it true?
don't know how many missiles they had deployed with nukes but it is said that they installed had all of them with nukes,possibly 125+,
but the question is could the porki jets be monitored and killed by awacs or other resources,before they hit densely populated areas ? considering the points above shown,that they had already installed decoys for that purpose to safeguard their f16s and the usa had helped them in doing so..

sum · Post by **sum** » 31 Jan 2009 18:29

don't know how many missiles they had deployed with nukes but it is said that they installed had all of them with nukes,possibly 125+,

As per informed sources in many articles, Pak has NO missile deliverable nukes. The Chinese apparently took back the missile deliverable nukes leaving behind only aircraft tossed bombs with the Pakis. Im sure that Unkil will have his claws around those as well.

namit k · Post by **namit k** » 31 Jan 2009 18:38

sum wrote:
don't know how many missiles they had deployed with nukes but it is said that they installed had all of them with nukes,possibly 125+,
As per informed sources in many articles, Pak has NO missile deliverable nukes. The Chinese apparently took back the missile deliverable nukes leaving behind only aircraft tossed bombs with the Pakis. Im sure that Unkil will have his claws around those as well.

we are not deploying and investing huge amounts into missile defence just to stop kiddy babur, and others without nukes.
investing so much on western border would be a waste, and only 10 s300 could do the job of stopping conventional warhead missiles
sum . that is a big information you have posted,about no missile deliverable nukes and it means they had done no progress in these 10 yrs anfter nuke tests?

plz provide links about your claim..

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 31 Jan 2009 19:19

As a matter of fact, Pakistan has as of today a more "developed" nuke C3I infratstructure than India. Its missile production capacity (M9,M11) is also greater than the Agni missile production capacity of India today. We of course have many times Pak's capacity of fissile material, its production, many more nuke capable aircraft etc...But PAk's nuke posture is not to be sneered at at all!

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 31 Jan 2009 20:52

sum wrote:
Pakistan Navy will shortly acquire Airborne Early Warning (AEW) Aircraft and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) to further strengthen its air fleet.
I would assume that the AEW is the two P3C+Hawkeye radar.
But, which UAVs are they getting exclusively for the navy?
Where are they getting the $$ from?

UAVs are likely to be Camcopter. AFter IN, PN also evaluated the same. Infact there was some news that one of the camcopter crashed while on evaluation.!

namit k · Post by **namit k** » 31 Jan 2009 21:26

somnath wrote:As a matter of fact, Pakistan has as of today a more "developed" nuke C3I infratstructure than India. Its missile production capacity (M9,M11) is also greater than the Agni missile production capacity of India today. We of course have many times Pak's capacity of fissile material, its production, many more nuke capable aircraft etc...But PAk's nuke posture is not to be sneered at at all!

it is one thing about porki capability and it is another how they always manage to counter our systems with some,begged,borrowed or by theft or by any means,
why we are not able to counter their capabilities is a matter of introspection, but somehow porki strategy after 1971 seems to be even more confused and radical,and it seems they are living every bit of their lives in countering India,in fear of India, but upto what extent they would be able to do so should be known to us
there is a limit things can be done by a nation, what it is and what is the limit of pak war hysteria is necessary to be known,
it is true that India with go offensive on them in some kind or another after their maximum limit is reached but why porkis were always full of hatred,leading them to brink of extension,like in 1971 is a really dense question,and none could answer.
but ultimately if they are so much of hatred and war hysteria,why not to drive them upto maximum reach , simultaneously breaking them withn

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 31 Jan 2009 22:58

Pakistani Air defence and nuclear forces (imagery analysis)
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... p?t=130532

highly recommended reading

namit k · Post by **namit k** » 01 Feb 2009 14:06

Aditya G wrote:Pakistani Air defence and nuclear forces (imagery analysis)
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... p?t=130532

highly recommended reading

very nice post, definitely those porki weapns are not joke, all those missiles seem to be capable of carrying nukes and are not a bluff.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Feb 2009 00:56

We used to have very good threads on TSP military order of battle ie formations and locations. Need to revive it as part of this thread.

Eg: PA Corps and Command structure

Can some one use an editor and get rid of the < & > and make a clean copy. We can then keep it updated?

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 09 Feb 2009 18:16

This is the biggest pull-off of Pakistan!

I can't stop laughing! I wonder if Humor thread is the right place for this video !

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 09 Feb 2009 18:32

Bakistan thread would be more appropriate.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 14 Feb 2009 05:07

9-11 Memorial built by the Americans .......... at PAF Jacobabad.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Feb 2009 06:23

Where are they getting the $$ from?

Drug monies?

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 14 Feb 2009 08:33

Russia Admits China Illegally Copied Its Fighter

By wendell minnick
Published: 13 Feb 12:29 EST (17:29 GMT)
Print Print | Print Email

BANGALORE, India - After years of denial, a Russian defense official conceded that China had produced its own "fake" version of the Su-27SK fighter jet in violation of intellectual property agreements.

"We are in discussions with China on this issue," said Mikhail Pogosyan, first vice president on program coordination, Russian Aircraft Corp., during a press conference here at the Aero India trade show.

In 1995, China secured a production license to build 200 Su-27SKs, dubbed J-11A, for $2.5 billion for the Shenyang Aircraft Corp. The deal required the aircraft to be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. Russia cancelled the arrangement at 95 aircraft in 2006 after it discovered that China was developing an indigenous version, J-11B, with Chinese avionics and systems.

China produced six J-11B fighters for testing, but despite efforts to produce a suitable replacement for the Russian engine, the new fighter was outfitted with the same AL-31F, said Andrei Chang, a China military specialist at the Kanwa Defense Center. One J-11A was outfitted with the indigenously-built WS10A Tai Hang turbofan engine, but the J-11Bs are still using Russian AL-31Fs due to technical difficulties, Chang said.

Pogosyan and Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov traveled to Beijing in December to attend the 13th session of a Chinese-Russian joint commission on military and technical cooperation and apply pressure to Chinese officials. Ultimately, China agreed to protect intellectual property rights and stop illegally copying Russian military equipment.

"I think this was a big step to make this issue more transparent and more precise in our future discussions," said Pogosyan, who also serves as the general director of Sukhoi.

Russia fears that China would mass-produce cheaper export versions of the Su-27 for the international market, and China feared that Russia would cancel future orders for advanced arms, such as the Su-33 combat jet for China's aircraft carrier program, Chang said. Chinese violations of the end-user agreement would be particularly upsetting to Russia's long-time strategic partner India, if Pakistan buys the Chinese-built Su-27 version.

However, Pogosyan downplayed the quality of the Chinese effort, saying a copy of a copy would not be a good aircraft.

"If we speak about the copy of the airplanes, I think that in this case, the original will always be better than a slightly modified copy," he said. "The original made by the designer who developed the product is always better, and it is a better start for a new program with the original designer and developer than making a fake copy."

He said buying copies makes it difficult to overcome problems occurring during the lifetime of the aircraft, while the original developer knows from experience how to deal with these issues.

Chang does not believe China will honor the intellectual property agreement, or any agreement with Russia, and will continue to develop the J-11B as a totally indigenous aircraft. However, China will move cautiously until it secures deals for the Su-33 carrier-based fighter. China is beginning to build its first aircraft carrier and needs Russian technology and experience, Chang said.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 14 Feb 2009 09:54

ramana wrote:We used to have very good threads on TSP military order of battle ie formations and locations. Need to revive it as part of this thread.

Eg: PA Corps and Command structure

Can some one use an editor and get rid of the < & > and make a clean copy. We can then keep it updated?

Ramana-saar,

I have the clean copy with me. Should I mail it to you ?

Please provide me an e-mail id or drop me a mail at nayakuddin at gmail dot com.

Thanks.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 Feb 2009 20:11

Sunil wrote: Hi,
This is an attempt to make sense out a vast number of names and alphabets flowing rather freely around. so please add to this as you find things..
i dont recall who it was that said "Know thy enemy"..but lets see if we can draw up a list of the formations and their heads.

GHQ (Lt. Gen Mohammmed Aziz,
Lt Gen. Salim Haidar,
Maj. Gen Anis Bajwa (Establishment Secy.(ex- DGMO),
Brig. Javed Malik (Military Secy),
Brig. Quershi (ISPR))Corps and Corps Commanders.

1) Mangla (1st Corps)(Formerly Salim Haider; now ?)
2) Multan (2nd Corps)
3) Lahore (4th Corps)
4) Karachi (5th Corps)(GOC Maj. Gen. Iftekar)
5) Rawalpindi (10th corps, Lt. Gen. Mahmood Ahmed(* presently DGISI)(111 Brigade,Brigadier Gen. Salahuddin)
6) Peshawar (11th Corps)
7) Quetta (12th Corps)
Gujranwala (30th Corps)
9) Bhawalpur (31st Corps)
10) Force Commander Northern Areas (Gilgit Baltistan).

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 Feb 2009 20:11

Sunil wrote: Hi,

the sources are news articles that came out just around the coup. I dont know where the gaps come from andi think Ist Corps (Mangla) is the strike corps. the rest i dont know.

The way i suggest we do this is that

1) we surf the news sites esp the pakistani ones.
2) the moment anyone sees a name then check the list and put it up here if it is not present already.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 Feb 2009 20:11

Badar wrote: Hi,sunil, good idea. PS : Check my thread on IA corps, see if you can get your hands on Rikhye's book.

Sunil wrote: GOC Karachi,
Major Gen. Iftikhar

Here are more names.

Lt. General Zulfiqar Ali Khan (Chairman WAPDA)

source:http://www.dawn.com/daily/19991115/latest.htm

Lt Gen (retd) Nasim Rana, appointed Secretary Defence on contract; and

LtGen (retd) JavedAshraf, appointed on contract as Secretary Railways.

source:http://www.dawn.com/daily/19991115/top9.htm

badar

ravi rikhye is not on the yale liby list.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 Feb 2009 20:12

Sunil wrote: Revised estimates after trawling through PAIDS archive as far back as july 15 1999 to the present date.(http://www.piads.com.pk/pdnb-index.html)I shall update this as soon as I find new info)

Defence Secy. lt Gen (R) Nasim Rana Military Secy.
(Brig Javed Malik (*Courtmartialled 13/10/99))
Principle Staff Officers Committee
COAS Gen. Pervez Musharraf CGS
Lt Gen Mohammmed Aziz, Adjutant General Quarter Master General
Lt. Gen. Mohammad AkramMaster General Ordnance

*********************************************

General HQ (Rawalpindi)
Lt Gen. Salim Haidar,
Establishment secy,
(Maj. Gen Anis Bajwa),
DGMO (Maj. Gen. Shahid Aziz)
ISPR Brig. Rashid Quershi (DGISPR),
ISI Lt. Gen. Mahmood Ahmed(DGISI)
Lt Gen. Tariq Parvaiz Khan (*Courtmarshalled 13/10/99),
(Lt. Gen. Salahuddin Tirmizi)Ehtesab Cell (now NAB)
GHQ Rawalpindi( Lt Gen.Amjad Hussain)
Lt Gen. Salim Haidar,
CORPS ANC CORPS COMMANDERS

1) Mangla (1st Corps)(North Strike)(Lt. Gen. Tauqir Zia)
2) Multan (2nd Corps)(South Strike)(Lt Gen. Yousuf Khan)
3) Lahore (4th Corps)
(Lieutenant General Khalid Maqbool)
(Lieutenant General Safdar Butt)
(Garrison Commander Major General Tariq Majid)
(GOC. Maj. Gen. Javaid Ahmed)

4) Karachi (5th Corps)
(Lt Gen. Muzaffar H Usmani) (major Zaffar-Ullah Khan Wazir)
(Lt. Col Atiq-uz-Zaman Kiyani, protocol officer)

5) Rawalpindi (10th corps)
Lt. Gen. Mahmood Ahmed(* DGISI)
(111 Brigade Brigadier Gen. Salahuddin)
(Maj Gen Arif Hassan)
(Maj Gen Farooq Khan,
Brig Maqbool,
Brig Abdul Hadi and Lt Col Kausar)

6) Peshawar (11th Corps)
(Lt. Gen. Saeeduz Zafar)

7) Quetta (12th Corps)
(Lt. Gen Mushtaq Hussain)(Garrison Commander Major General Shahid Hamid)
(Army Command and Staff College. Major General Javed Afzal, Commandant)

Gujranwala (30th Corps)

9) Bhawalpur (31st Corps)

10) Force Commander Northern Areas (Gilgit Baltistan)
(Maj Gen. Javed Hasan)
(NLI- Saifullah Bn. Lieutenant Colonel Salim Mahmood Khan.)
Director General Armed Corps Maj Gen Rehmat,Air Defence Command
( Maj. Gen.Iftikhar Hussain Shah DG)
Commandant PMA Kakul Maj Gen Imtiaz Shaheen,Station Commander Abbottabad Brig M. OmerParamilitary

11)Frontier Corps (NFWP)
(Inspector General of FC (NWFP) Maj Gen Sultan Habib)

12)Pakistan Rangers
(Maj-Gen Salimullah DG PR(Punjab))

13)Chitral Scouts

14)South Waziristan Scouts

15)Zhoab Militia

16)Gilgit Scouts

Other

1)POF (Maj. Gen. Abdul Qayyum, Chairmam)

The UNKNOWNS.

This stuff is picked from news reports of Defence Day so i have presented the report verbatim, i cant match the names to the formations.

1) In Ladian, General Officer Commanding Maj-Gen. Rizwan Qureshi, laid afloral wreath on the grave of Maj Raja Aziz Bhatti Shaheed and offered fateha.
2) General Officer Commanding Maj-Gen. Mohammad Tajul Mulk, laid a floralwreath and offered Fateha at the monument of Major Mohammad Akram Shaheed.
3) At Mahfoozabad (Pind Malkan), Punjab Regimental Centre Commander Brig.Saulat Abbas laid a floral wreath at the grave of Lance Naik MahfoozShaheed and offered Fateha.
4) Divisional Artillery Commander Brig Mohammad Anwarul Haque laid a floralwreath at the grave of Mohammad Hussain Shaheed and offered Fateha.
5)At a similar ceremony General Officer Commanding Maj-Gen. Mohammad Javed,laid a floral wreath and offered Fateha at the grave of Major ShabbirSharif Shaheed at Miani Sahib, Lahore.
6)At Vehari, brigade commander Brig Mukhtar Ahmed, laid a floral wreath onthe grave of Major Mohammad TufailShaheed and offered Fateha.
7)At village Nava Kali in Tehsil Swabi General Officer Commanding Maj-Gen.Zakauddin Malik laid a floral wreath atthe grave of Capt. Karnal Sher Shaheed and offered fateha.
This is the weirdest of them all, in a symposium on the CWC this guys spoke, my guess is he is a part of the PA's CW management. (BTW he is lying through his teeth.. )"Addressing the participants, Major Gen Ashfaq Pervez Kiani, General Officer Commanding, said that Pakistan's military doctrine was not based on the use of chemical weapons, and it had never made such weapons or their agents."
9) Lt Gen. Yousuf Khan Corps Commander, Multan, saluted martyr Abbasi's grave. Some civilians also followed suit. Lt Gen Yousuf laid two floral wreaths at the grave, one on behalf of Chief of the Army Staff Gen Pervez Musharraf. Later, Maj Gen Farooq Khan, Brig Maqbool, Brig Abdul Hadi and Lt Col Kausar laid floral wreaths at the grave representing GOC, Corps Commander Pindi and 22 unit.
10)Brigadier Tariq Ali Khan, Commander Logistic Area, and Brigadier Naveed Nasar, commander ASF (Karachi).
11) Lt. Col Atiq-uz-Zaman Kiyani, protocol officer of Five Corps headquarters (this guy was the man on the scene at karachi airport when COAS flight was refused permission to land)

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 Feb 2009 20:12

Sunil wrote: Sunil Gupta,Somehow i doubt that the americans trained any NLI chaps. I believe the NLI is what was classified as a civil-armed force. It consists of volounteers (civilian) and people seconded from the regular PA. The NLI was only just(post Kargil) raised to the status of a full regiment of the PA. The uniforms in the photo appear to be standard issue. So nothing more can be said.

Sunil wrote: here is a fair catch (well very good catch)

(http://www.piads.com.pk/news99jula.html)

Pakistan Army's strike, defence corps move to border 8 July 1999 Javad Muzaffar LAHORE: The two strike corps of the Pakistan Army and the two adjoining defence corps have fully mobilised manpower and ammunition potential from River Ravi to Siachen Glacier in the north and Okara to Badin in the south to repulse any Indian attack along the LoC or the international border.

In this background, one of the reserve infantry divisions from Pakistan's western border has joined the Mangla strike corps which now has three infantry divisions and an armoured division. Around 20,000 troops form an infantry division and there are four brigades in a division. The Mangla strike corps provides the backup to the Gujranwalacorps which defends the River Ravi and River Chenab working boundary with India. The other strike corps, the Multan corps, is undergoing war exercises and its commanders are monitoring the developments down south. Up north, around eight brigades of the Pakistan Army from Murree to Siachen having around 40,000 troops equipped with surface-to-air missiles and artillery backup are deployed to repulse any attempt by India to cross the Line of Control.

The eight brigades have the backup of the Jhelum, Mangla, Gilgit and Murree divisions of thePakistan Army. The area from Murree to Siachen is under the control of the Pindi corps and the Force Commander Northern Areas. Before the Indian occupation of Siachen, five brigades under the Murree division of the Pakistan Army used to control the area up to Azad Kashmir and further north. After 1984, three more brigades have been deployed in the Siachen Glacier area to thwart any Indian aggression.

The top leadership of the Pakistan Army is also well-versed in the terrain up north. The Chief of General Staff Lt Gen Aziz Ahmed is considered an expert in the area as he served as a brigade commander in the brigade deployed nearest to the Siachen Glacier around eight years ago. He also served as the Force Commander Northern Areas as a major general and the three brigades around the Siachen area fell under his command. The COAS, General Pervaiz Musharraf, did his stint as a SSG commando in the Northern Areas.

The present FCNA, Maj Gen Javed Hasan is one of the bright officers of the Pakistan Army and was posted to the assignment after he came from an important assignment as the defence attache in the USA. Catch 2. (http://www.piads.com.pk/news99junb.html)16 June 1999 Pakistan Army has a force strength of 550,00 troops plus around one lac reserves. PakistanArmy has two armoured divisions, 19 infantry divisions, 1 artillery division, 6independent armoured brigades, 6 independent mechanized infantry brigades, 8 air defence brigades, 9 artillery brigades, 7 engineer brigades, 3 armoured reconnaissance regiments, one special services group (3 battalions, 1 independent counter-terrorist company).

This is apart from a range of a battery of missiles from Ghauri, Shaheen, Anza and others, capable of carrying nuclear warheads with a different payload capability. [This message has been edited by sunil sainis (edited 18-11-1999).]

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 Feb 2009 20:13

Sunil wrote: Q Quincy,My focus is to identify the PSOC and the Corps Commanders and their assets list. I have 19 divisions, whereas the sources posted by Mr. Sainis have 21. There are two possibilities.

(1) There is a reference to the Gilgit division. Gilgit is the HQ for FCNA, which is still very much around. Possibly the Pakistanis are counting FCNA as a division, which ofcourse it very much is. In that case I Corps would have added anadditional division. The reference to a reserve division from the western front joining the Mangla Corps' three division means a division of XI Corps (Peshawar) was transferred. I Corps used to have two divisions. The FCNA to me is still a vague entity, it is somewhere in between a regular formation and a civilian militia.. the number of irregular and mercinary forces that they have under their command is quite large.. btw. post Kargil the FCNA has been spruced up quite a bit.

There is something called the Pakistan strategic reserve, it appears in several articles on the Battle of Shakhargarh, I think this is supposed to be a part of the I corps(Mangla) and a part of the Xth corps(pindi), so my guess is if a division was transfered from XI Corps (Peshawar) it was most probably transfered to this reserve. XI Corps (Peshawar) too has a bewildering array of irregular units and paramilitaries under it.

I suppose they can afford to spare a division. surprized if Pakistan has six independent mechanized brigades because 111 (I) Brigade of X Corps (Peshawar) would belimited in its role as corps reserve if it was mechanized.why? i didn't get the argument? why would it be limited? from media reports speak of the 111 Brigade as being a A level formation of some sort. [This message has been edited by sunil sainis (edited 16-11-1999).]

Sunil wrote: More Names.. look the name of the V Corps Commander.

http://www.dawn.com/daily/19991116/top2.htm

Corps Commander 5 Corps
Lieutenant Genreal Muzaffar H Usmani alongwith major Zaffar-Ullah Khan Wazir arrived at the airport. I alongwith Brigadier Tariq Ali Khan, Commander Logistic Area, and Brigadier Naveed Nasar, commander ASF, received the corps commander

Sunil wrote: The day's catch. from.

http://www.frontierpost.com.pk

Ehtesab Cell, GHQ Rawalpindi, Lieutenant General Amjad HussainAction demanded against police high-handedness F.P. Report PESHAWAR - The Sipah-i-Sahaba Pakistan, Peshawar, president, Muhammad IsmailDarwash, has condemned the local police's attitude, asking the corps commander Lt General Saeed-uz-Zafar and IGP, Mohammad Saeed Khan to take notice of the police behaviour with the masses. So Saeed-uz-Zafar is 11 Corps (Peshawar) commander not II Corps (Multan).

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 Feb 2009 20:13

Sunil wrote: From the following site(http://www.du.edu/~tomills/military/asia/pa1990.htm)
REGIMENTAL LIST Credibility Units are listed in order of precedence in 1990.

Pakistan had become a republic in 1956, and regiments consequently omitted all traces of royal affiliations. The creation of large infantry regiments in 1956 is reflected by the constituent battalions in the right margin according totheir 1903-22 regimental numbers.

Cavalry

The President's Bodyguard 4th Cavalry 1980
5th Horse 6th Lancers 7th Lancers 1980
8th Lancers 1980 9th Lancers 1980
Guides Cavalry (Frontier Force)
11th Cavalry (Frontier Force)
12th Cavalry (Frontier Force)
13th Lancers 15th Lancers 19th Lancers
20th Lancers 1955 22nd Cavalry 1950
23rd Cavalry (Frontier Force) 1960
24th Cavalry 1960
25th Cavalry 1960
26th Cavalry 1972
27th Cavalry 1972
28th Cavalry 1972
29th Cavalry 1972
30th Cavalry 1978
31st Cavalry 1978
32nd Cavalry 1985
33rd Cavalry 1985
40th Cavalry 1988
41st Cavalry 1988
42nd Cavalry 1988
43rd Cavalry 1988
50th Cavalry 1990
51st Cavalry 1990
52nd Cavalry 1990
53rd Cavalry 1990

Pakistan Artillery(?NO DATA)

Pakistan Engineers(?NO DATA)

Pakistan Signals(?NO DATA)Infantry

The Punjab Regiment (19, 20, 22, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 30, 31, 33, 40,62, 66, 76, 82)

The Baluch Regiment (89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 124, 126, 127, 129, 130)

The Frontier Force Regiment (51, 52, 53, 55, 56, 58, 59)

The Azad Kashmir Regiment (Raised 1971)

The Sind Regiment (Raised 1980)

The Special Service Group (Raised 1959)

Support Arms

Pakistan Electrical and Mechanical Engineers
Pakistan Ordnance Corps
Pakistan Corps of Military Police
Pakistan Medical Corps
Pakistan Army Education Corps
Pakistan Clerks and Supply Services

more from the same site (http://www.du.edu/~tomills/military/asia/iargts.htm)

The Post-Independence Pakistan Army Pakistan became a Republic in 1956 and also consequently omitted royalconnections from its Army titles. Expansion followed the same model as the Indian Army, initially leaving vacant the cavalry numbers which had gone to India, and beginning the new regimental numbers at the 22nd. New battalions were added to the existing infantry regiments, but four new regiments were also raised shortly after independence: Bahawalpur (formed from the Indian State Forces), Pathan, East Bengal, and Azad Kashmir. In a very unpopular move in 1956 the eight old and four new infantry regiments were consolidated into three large regiments: the 1st, 14th, 15th and 16th Punjab were amalgamated into one Punjab Regiment; the old Baluch, 8thPunjab and new Bahawalpur were merged into a new Baluch Regiment; and Frontier Force Regt, Frontier Force Rifles and new Pathan Regt formed a new Frontier Force Regiment. Subsequent new regiments included the Sind Regiment formed from eleven battalions of the Punjab and ten battalions of the Baluch regiments. The Azad Kashmir Regiment was formed byregularising "freedom-fighters" and other paramilitaries of the 1947-48war. The East Bengal Regiment, which was somewhat optimistically formingits 10th Battalion in 1971, was lost to Bangladesh when East Pakistan broke away in that year's war of independence. The Special Service Groupwas formed from the 19th Bn (raised during the Second World War) of TheBaluch Regiment as Pakistan's elite red berets, a combination parachute and commando force

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 Feb 2009 20:13

Sunil wrote: From (http://www.rpi.edu/dept/union/paksa/www ... /army.html)

Reliability (materail appears old) But the details about the PSOC are interesting.

******************************************

The chief of the army staff supervises his service through the Army General Headquarters in Rawalpindi. The four principal staff officers under the chief in Army General Headquarters are the chief of the general staff, the adjutant general, the quartermaster general, and the master general of ordnance. These positions are usually filled by major generals. The operations and intelligence functions were the responsibility of the chief of the general staff.

The Chief of army staff is General Jehangir Karamat. The army components are categorized as arms or services. The arms are infantry, artillery, armor, engineers, and communications. The services include various components, such as the ordnance corps; maintenance and repair corps; electrical and mechanical engineer corps; education corps; military police corps; and the remount, veterinary, and farm corps.

A corps usually consisted of two or more divisions and is commanded by a lieutenant general whose headquarters is a scaled-down version of the Army General Headquarters. An infantry division, the major ground force combat formation, usually consisted of infantry, artillery, engineers, and communications units in addition to the supply and service support required for sustained independent action.

Three infantry brigades usually comprised the primary organic combat units of an infantry division; armored units would be attached depending on the mission of the division and the terrain in which it operated.

Auxiliary or paramilitary forces include the Pakistan Rangers, the Frontier Corps, and the Frontier Constabulary. The 20 Infantry & 2 Armoured Divisions are grouped under 9 different Corpsheadquarters commanded by 3-star Lieutenant Generals.
These are:
I Corps (Mangla)
II Corps (Multan)
IV Corps (Lahore)
V Corps (Karachi)
X Corps (Rawalpindi)
XI Corps (Peshawar)
XII Corps (Quetta)
XXX Corps (Gujranwala)
XXXI Corps (Bahawalpur)

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 Feb 2009 20:14

Sunil wrote: Source (http://www.paktoday.com/dciplin.htm) Credibility (Positive).

We have some more names and it appears the the 6th Punjab is based at Karachi.

The Army And Discipline By: Ikram Sehgal A cryptic announcement became the subject of headline Saturday Oct. 8 that Lt. Gen. Tariq Pervaiz Commander 12 Corps based in Quetta, had asked for early retirement i.e. four months before he was due in Feb. 2000.

Actually by age his retirement date was Nov. 7, 2000, so he has prematurely retired a year early. TP, as he as generally known to everybody, is a soldier's soldier. I met him first in PMA in 1964 when we were stick orderlies to the President Field Marshal Ayub Khan at the passing out in October 1964 of 30th PMA (Lt. Gen. Ziauddin DG ISI and Iftikhar Hussain Shah, DG Air Defense Command , were respectively Senior Under Officer and Junior Under Officer of Qasim Company, the company I belonged to while Lt. Gen. Salahuddin Tirmizi and Saeeduzzafar were of the same Course in other companies).

TP was from 33rd PMA , a term senior to me. Another point in common was that he escaped from a POW Camp in India in 1972, I had escaped earlier. He was originally from 6 Punjab but he later joined the same unit in which I served during the 1971 war, 44 Punjab (now 4 Sindh) .

In fact he took over the command of D Company from me. My batman from 1971-74, Mohamma Akram, passed on to his service and stayed with him for nearly, 15 years, thereafter coming back to me for a short time after from the Army. As such one can say we had quite a few in common. after Gen Zia-ul-Haq's death and with the commencement of Gen. Aslam Beg's era of 'glasnost', there was far more social inter-action between the political and military hierarchy than was necessary.

Late Gen. Asif Nawaz put a stop to this. Even though the first man to suffer such a fate was a man I admired professional soldier, Lt. Gen. Hameed Gul former DG ISI, the Army meant more as an institution than the individual. Gen. Waheed Kakar retired two Lt. Gen. prematurely on this account, this despite the fact that the nature of their appointments required them to be convivial with civilians of fraternization continued during Gen. Karamat's tenure and has continued unabated since Musharraf took over.

Frankly, this is not conducive to maintaining the Chief's authority. The COAS is the top honcho in the channel of command and he cannot have his subordinates double-guessing his authority by hobnobbing with politicians and bureaucrats. If he permits such dangerous 'liaison' he loses the fabric that binds his dominance over his subordinates.

**CONDENSED FOR BREVITY**

Other than discipline, what separates a soldier from a civilian is soldier will invariably accept moral responsibility if he is found to be wrong. That is the honorable thing to do. In keeping with a strong tradition that puts a mantle of responsibility over the leadership in the Armed Forces, a person must either keep his counsel or seek to leave the service in an honorable fashion. TP opted for the honorable way, when he finally doffs his uniform in his parent unit 6 Punjab on 12 Oct. in Karachi , he will have reason to be satisfied. Others who fall into the same category would be well advised to go the TP route rather than risk harming the edifice of the Army for personal aggrandizement. Having the courage of convictions may make mind, for the sake of the uniform he has to about the company he chooses to register his dissent.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 Feb 2009 20:14

Sunil wrote: Source(http://www.ipcs.org/states/pak-nr.html) Credibility Positive).

Civil-military watchdog for Pak. (Amit Baruah)

The Hindu 12 November 99

The Pakistani Chief Executive, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, has stressed that only "civil-military combine'' can overcome the massive problems facing Pakistan. He made these comments at a combined meeting of Corps Commanders, National Security Council and Cabinet members as well as provincial Governors in Rawalpindi yesterday.

After the meeting, the Director-General of Military Operations (DGMO), Major-General Shahid Aziz, briefed Pakistani reporters about the aims and objectives of a military monitoring structure to ensure a system of good governance and corruption- free environment.

'2 Pak Generals leaked secrets'
The Hindustan Times
12 October 99

The Pakistan Army high command has transferred one of its generals and forcibly retired another for providing information to the Sharif Government about important Army Corps Commanders' meetings, a report published today in the 'Jang' has claimed.

According to the report, General Saleem Haider who was Corps Commander, Mangla, was transferred and replaced by a 'trusted' General Tauqir Zia on the orders of General Musharraf, Chief of Army Staff, while Corps Commander Tariq Pervez, who was serving as Corps Commander, Quetta, was forced to retire.

The report stated that the generals were providing information to the government about the Corps Commanders' meetings that widened the rift between the Government and the Army. Political observers here believe that Punjab Chief's sudden visit to US was a result of the information by these two generals that the Army was planning a coup to oust the Sharif Government. Meanwhile, Lt General Tariq Pervez, in an interview with the 'Jang', said that he was forced to retire on the orders of the Army Chief. He denied meeting Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif as reported in the Press.