Small Arms Thread

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 05 Sep 2009 08:32

Rahul M wrote:bruno ji, MOD report 2009 mentions that 20 mm anti-materials rifle is being produced for MHA which means NSG might use it but not the military.

Bruno is happy to know that NSG has them but then again, 25 kgs seem too cumbersome. Also, the numbers are too few both in the case of BSF and MHA/NSG. We need to have a lot more than that.

Bheem · Post by **Bheem** » 05 Sep 2009 09:59

RayC wrote:M107 .50 Caliber Special Application Scoped Rifle SASR
Long Range Sniper Rifle (LRSR)

The M107 .50-caliber long range rifle is semi-automatic and is being fielded to infantry soldiers.

M107 .50 cal

I think that South African Mechem was preferred by Indian Army but since OFB has re-engineered it, it has fallen out of favor. Now last one heard that Army wanted the lighter Gepard-2 from Hungary which is also a good anti-material rifle on paper, though the import seems stuck in paperwork

Bheem · Post by **Bheem** » 05 Sep 2009 10:05

However, the effective cancellation of this programme now makes this extremely unlikely. Instead, a new Mk 262 loading for the 5.56x45 has been introduced which, although so far only in limited service (mainly with special forces), appears to have significantly improved the effectiveness of the cartridge from short barrels. In mid-2009, USSOCOM was sponsoring a further development of the 5.56mm for use in the new SCAR MK 16 rifle, the MK 318 Enhanced or Barrier round.

Bheem · Post by **Bheem** » 05 Sep 2009 10:10

Federal/ATK has developed a new 5.56 "barrier blind" ammunition with enhanced terminal performance overall, optimized for short barrel (14") use, and producing impressive wound cavities in gel.

The design is basically a non-bonded version of the 5.56mm Federal 77gr bonded OTM used for the USMC Barrier-Blind test. This round almost duplicated the wound cavity of the 110gr 6.8mm SPC; and had enhanced penetration through barriers; but could still be fired through normal USGI rifles with no modification.

The new round is 62gr (presumably so the military can continue to use the same sights) and non-bonded; but has been designed with an eye towards terminal performance. It has great accuracy (extreme spread of around 3" at 300yds) and uses a powder designed to maximize efficiency in shorter barrels (2,925fps out of a 14" barrel).

The round was announced at the 2009 NDIA conference along with other improvements in 7.62x51 and .300 Win Mag ammunition.

If the Army can be convinced to drop its new M855 Lead-Free round and go with the Mk318 Mod 0 (5.56mm 62gr Barrier), it should provide a good performance boost to the M16 family in general and especially to the shorter barrelled ARs.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 05 Sep 2009 11:07

[quote="VijayKumarSinha"]
Hi Sanjeev,
I don't know if you have already come across this information by reading the previous posts but, the Indian Army and BSF already operates a LRSR..................

Thanks Vijay,
I will read up about Vidhvansak.It sure is heavier i guess, as the wiki says and the range is still under 2000 mtrs, whereas the M-107 has an awesome range of around 2500 mtrs.
Regards

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 06 Sep 2009 17:59

Thanks Vijay,
I will read up about Vidhvansak.It sure is heavier i guess, as the wiki says and the range is still under 2000 mtrs, whereas the M-107 has an awesome range of around 2500 mtrs.
Regards

A great deal of weapon range/accuracy is also dependent on the Quality and load of the Ammo. Apart from weapons we need a serious upgrade in our Ammo making tech.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 06 Sep 2009 18:01

Anyways here is an interesting Small Arms System.

IMO the New Age RPG

Israeli Mini-Spike - Weight 4Kgs.

Larger Picture with Info board

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/7053/44784321.jpg

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 07 Sep 2009 02:22

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 979682.cms
The above link states that there are no grenade launchers available for INSAS.
Surely that is wrong! I clearly remember seeing insas pic with grenade launcher attached to it at a defence expo.
But then again, has anyone seen any pic of insas with grenade launcher in the hands of a soldier? I certainly have not and I find it very odd.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 07 Sep 2009 09:07

Saddled with Insas, Army wants new AK-47s

As part of the new Army doctrine, the gun is meant to incapacitate the enemy, rather than kill. Insas has a smaller calibre, which means it has less power. This is because — and it’s the official view — injuring an enemy can lead to enemy soldiers getting engaged in tending the wounded, thus yielding a tactical battlefield advantage.
...
The barrel overheats with continuous firing. The magazine cracks even on falling, which is common during action. Oil spillage while firing is also major trouble,’’ said a source quoting soldiers. ‘‘Zeroing (adjusting the sight for aim) has to be done each time the rifle is opened to clean or for any other reason. Lack of proper zeroing hampers the working of night vision device,’’ said the same source.
...
The total additional weight — around 40 kg with bulletproof jacket and signalling equipment — that a soldier carries is also a matter of concern, as is the colour of the rifle: they want it in brown which offers better camouflaging. On the positive side, Insas’s transparent magazine helps soldiers keep a count of bullets.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Sep 2009 10:25

hand grenade : a new model multi-mode grenade has been developed by DRDO. check MOD report 2009.
UBGLs are in production and I've certainly seen pics of them on INSAS.

2nd report : he is repeating 10 year old news. COIN forces anyway uses the AK and not the INSAS, so what is he talking about ?

All hail shishir arya, the new lifafa journalist from TOI !!

Bheem · Post by **Bheem** » 07 Sep 2009 10:52

Rahul M wrote:hand grenade : a new model multi-mode grenade has been developed by DRDO. check MOD report 2009.
UBGLs are in production and I've certainly seen pics of them on INSAS.

2nd report : he is repeating 10 year old news. COIN forces anyway uses the AK and not the INSAS, so what is he talking about ?

All hail shishir arya, the new lifafa journalist from TOI !!

I agree, though this is not lifafa journalism but a put up article to dish INSAS in veiw of reported RFP issued by army for one Billion dollar imports of rifles (disguised as import of carbines).

This as* written article, the author does not know that India already makes Ak-47 clone called A-7. He had picked up all criticisms of INSAS by googling and written an article which is really short of facts.

Having said this, INSAS has completed its production run of One million pieces and it is high time a new rifle is developed. SIG and SCAR are good templates to develop new version of INSAS as these designs are natural evolution of Ak47-74 series similar to INSAS.

Bheem · Post by **Bheem** » 07 Sep 2009 11:22

Federal/ATK has developed a new 5.56 "barrier blind" ammunition with enhanced terminal performance overall, optimized for short barrel (14") use, and producing impressive wound cavities in gel.

The design is basically a non-bonded version of the 5.56mm Federal 77gr bonded OTM used for the USMC Barrier-Blind test. This round almost duplicated the wound cavity of the 110gr 6.8mm SPC; and had enhanced penetration through barriers; but could still be fired through normal USGI rifles with no modification.

The new round is 62gr (presumably so the military can continue to use the same sights) and non-bonded; but has been designed with an eye towards terminal performance. It has great accuracy (extreme spread of around 3" at 300yds) and uses a powder designed to maximize efficiency in shorter barrels (2,925fps out of a 14" barrel).

The round was announced at the 2009 NDIA conference along with other improvements in 7.62x51 and .300 Win Mag ammunition.

If the Army can be convinced to drop its new M855 Lead-Free round and go with the Mk318 Mod 0 (5.56mm 62gr Barrier), it should provide a good performance boost to the M16 family in general and especially to the shorter barrelled ARs.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 07 Sep 2009 21:03

Bheem wrote:...
the author does not know that India already makes Ak-47 clone called A-7.
...
SIG and SCAR are good templates to develop new version of INSAS as these designs are natural evolution of Ak47-74 series similar to INSAS.

1. Is the A-7 in production? I know that OFB has been displaying an assault rifle called "A-7" in many trade events, but has it been approved for production?

2. The SIG-556 in the configuration sold to US SWAT agencies is a pretty solid design, plus its basic layout (similar to M4 and HK 416) is going to be getting a lot of support from multiple sources for a long time to come (most importantly from Israel)*. On the negative side it is a somewhat more complex system to maintain and less fault-tolerant than the AKM, which Indian troopers seem to love. Even an Indian development using indigenous materials and low-cost labor, on Swiss design is still going to be pretty damn expensive ~ especially when compared to a Eastern Bloc-style design.

* In the emerging tactical environment, it seems that superior optics (thus marksmanship) and communications (thus coordination) are the only real edge-givers for the guy at the sharp end. From the accounts of various ISAF contingents in Afghanistan, it is common to hear that Johnny Talib is highly skilled at ambush, field-craft and individual initiative. Fortunately for the ISAF, what he lacks are marksmanship, coordination, and access to high-explosives and electronics (unlike Iraq, where its easy for the insurgents to find HE). Since the Talibs work closely with their brethren who end up in J&K, it is probably a good idea to pay close attention to these developments and studies.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 07 Sep 2009 21:26

Rahul M wrote:hand grenade : a new model multi-mode grenade has been developed by DRDO. check MOD report 2009.
UBGLs are in production and I've certainly seen pics of them on INSAS.
2nd report : he is repeating 10 year old news. COIN forces anyway uses the AK and not the INSAS, so what is he talking about ?

Rahul, I am no admirer of ToI's quality of reporting - but in this case I am willing to give him some benefit of the doubt. The DRDO and OFB regularly come up with many designs that often don't make it past the brochures and trade-event prototypes (which is not necessarily always a bad thing - remember the awful INSAS bullpup).

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Sep 2009 22:26

pargha, my comment was largely about the second article.

Bheem · Post by **Bheem** » 07 Sep 2009 22:30

All swiss products are costly due to high cost economy. The thing that is special about SIG is that they adopted the AK-47/74 mechanism in M-16 style layout. INSAS can easily evolve to that layout while retaining its well tested firing mechanism. This will allow the INSAS to be "relatively" more rugged & it will not loose its zero when it is field stripped for cleaning.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 08 Sep 2009 08:25

ParGha wrote:Rahul, I am no admirer of ToI's quality of reporting - but in this case I am willing to give him some benefit of the doubt. The DRDO and OFB regularly come up with many designs that often don't make it past the brochures and trade-event prototypes (which is not necessarily always a bad thing - remember the awful INSAS bullpup).

There seem to be a bunch of similar sounding articles floating around. One is about scopes on the INSAS. One about grenades which dont explode with a bit on the INSAS. Livefist states that its the RR who need scopes for the AK-47. And then mentions that the Army wants modern rifles of 'any calibre'. That pretty much flies in the face of the stopping power argument. Wonder what is going on.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 08 Sep 2009 08:58

Rashtriya Rifles For Optical Sights On AK-47s

Recent reports suggest -- and this is corroborated by the Army's own RFI from earlier this year -- that the INSAS rifle is creating a great deal of disenchantment in the infantry. The Army had therefore put out a global RFI earlier this year for a "modern assault rifle" of "any calibre".

What is this disenchantment that is being alluded to, or is it another ploy to get more phoren maal.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 08 Sep 2009 09:31

Rahul M wrote:hand grenade : a new model multi-mode grenade has been developed by DRDO. check MOD report 2009.

Some pics and info on the new Multimode Hand Grenade from drdo file dated December 2006

Multimode hand grenade Mk-I

Fragmenting sleeve, blast cup and fuse (left to right)

Multimode Hand Grenade Mk-I
Grenades of natural fragmentation type are being used by the
infantry the world over for a long time. Indian Army still uses the 36 M,
a grenade which has severe reliability problems due to its unreliable
fusing system and uneven fragmenting pattern, making it unsafe even
for the thrower. The subject multimode grenade has been developed
to overcome these defects. It uses preformed cylindrical mild steel
fragments to achieve uniform distribution of fragments. The grenade
has two basic modules: Fuse and body of the grenade.

Fuse
The fuse is initiated by the stab of a clapper spring on the
detonator. This detonator initiates the pyro-delay, which provides
delay of 3-4 s and then initiates the flash pallet. The flash produced
from the flash pallet initiates the magazine, which ensures fuse
initiation.
The arming mechanism comprises a safety pin, two conical
springs, a safety lever and bracket molded in situ holding the conical
springs in a compressed condition. The removal of safety pin
immediately arms the fuse. A shutter system has been incorporated
to ensure the additional safety in storage, transportation, and para
dropping.

Body of the Grenade
The offensive grenade has a plastic cup containing RDX/TNT
pre-cast pellet with booster charge. On detonation, the blast is
generated, which stuns the enemy through concussion up to 3-5 m
from the point of burst. A fragmenting sleeve is screwed on the
offensive grenade to convert it to a defensive grenade. The use of
plastics has resulted in the reduction of overall weight.

Salient Features
Modular in design
Light in weight
Multimode concept
Uniform fragmentation pattern

Rahul M wrote:UBGLs are in production and I've certainly seen pics of them on INSAS.

Some Pics Of UBGL

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 08 Sep 2009 20:02

http://epaper.hindustantimes.com/Articl ... 006&mode=1

This should go into the Misc. pictures thread, but since we are having a discussion on grenades, I decided to post it here also.
What is the pic showing? A rifle grenade? I didn't know we were using one. I thought the role of rifle grenades has been taken over by UBGLs. And is that the new multi-mode grenade in the pic?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 09 Sep 2009 12:20

There are not enough of UBGL.

And this is CRPF.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Sep 2009 10:42

Small arms experts, I was reading the Justice Tamang judicial Magistrate probe and the crux of the factual evidence for the fake encounter seems to be

'Police didn’t fire in self-defence, planted AK-56'

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... 56/514758/

The report also points to other contradictions: while the police FIR said the cops had fired 70 rounds from their service revolver, sten guns and AK-47, the FSL had recovered only 50 used cartridges from the scene of the crime and that too of AK-56 rifles. Not a single used cartridge of sten guns and service revolvers was found from the spot.

Experts please enlighten me?

1) I used to think the AK-47,Ak-56 & AK-74 all use the Nato Standard 7.62 mm ammunition. The probe is not referring to induvidual barrel markings based on ballistic tests on the cartridges but stating that ammunition recovered can be fired from of AK-56 only. Is this true??

2) Do service revolver and Sten guns bullets use a cartridge the same way rifles and mordern pistols do in which a cartridge is ejected by the side or does it go as part of the bullet through the barrell?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Sep 2009 14:44

Hi , any small arms experts who tell me the differences between AK47 and AK 56 ammunition.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 12 Sep 2009 14:49

No difference , 56 is a chinese copy of 47

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Sep 2009 21:29

Aditya_V wrote: 2) Do service revolver and Sten guns bullets use a cartridge the same way rifles and mordern pistols do in which a cartridge is ejected by the side or does it go as part of the bullet through the barrell?

not aware of any weapons that eject the cartridge through the barrell. the cartridge is significantly wider than the bullet itself and it makes it a little difficult to do both. like most weapons, the sten ejects it to one side. a revolver does not eject at all, the empty cases have to be removed manually

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Sep 2009 21:57

Ok thanks, so with regard to the report

1) Sten gun cartridges should have been found

2) Revovlver bullets may not be found unless the police open up the chamber and put the bullets on the ground at the spot.

3) That only AK-56 ammunition was found and not AK 47 is a factual error in the report and that AK 56 bullets killed the victims and cannot be AK47 bullets is also factual error.

Would that be fair to assume

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 12 Sep 2009 22:02

Aditya_V wrote: Experts please enlighten me?

1) I used to think the AK-47,Ak-56 & AK-74 all use the Nato Standard 7.62 mm ammunition. The probe is not referring to induvidual barrel markings based on ballistic tests on the cartridges but stating that ammunition recovered can be fired from of AK-56 only. Is this true??

2) Do service revolver and Sten guns bullets use a cartridge the same way rifles and mordern pistols do in which a cartridge is ejected by the side or does it go as part of the bullet through the barrell?

1. None of those 3 of the AK family ever used Nato Standard 7.62 ammo. AK-47, AK-56 and AKM use 7.62x39mm cartridges, whereas NATO 7.62 is 7.62x51mm. So you can never fit a NATO 7.62 into an AK-47 or AKM because the cartridge lengths are different. Incidentally, AK-56 is simply the Chinese copy of AK-47, so there isn't much difference between the two. Later AK-56s started to adopt AKM features, but they're still 7.62x39 ammo.

AK-74 uses a 5.45x39mm cartridge, so it won't fit NATO 7.62 or NATO 5.56 either. The first AKs to use NATO cartridges are AK-101 and AK-102.

2. There are no weapons that eject the case through the barrel. For one thing, the case is slightly larger than the bullet and won't fit through the barrel. If ejection happens, it happens through the top (in one case, bottom) or side of the chamber.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 12 Sep 2009 22:09

^^^^^
Forgot to mention that original AK-47s are relatively rare today. When the press mentions AK-47s, they are usually AK-56s or AKMs.

koti · Post by **koti** » 13 Sep 2009 17:00

I've just seen these pics.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... 61&page=91

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 13 Sep 2009 18:46

koti wrote:I've just seen these pics.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... 61&page=91

Why do Indian rifles look so tacky ?? If they are designing new weapons why dont they add some aesthetic quality to their designs. Just shows the designers mentality I guess.

Besides, when most of the West military's are tiring from the lack of adequate KE from 5.56x45mm round, the Indian army wants to get into that!

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 13 Sep 2009 19:00

AmitR wrote:Rashtriya Rifles For Optical Sights On AK-47s

Optical sights for an AK ?? That sounds pretty bizarre. The AK is not meant to be a precision weapon. Adding an optical sight isnt going to make any difference towards accuracy at all.

I think Indian soldiers should use more foreign weapons in greater numbers, if just to understand how good their weapons are. Even the US uses German and Belgian rifles in large numbers. Its best to get out the INSAS rut as soon as possible and get foreign companies to manufacture rifles in India for the Indian Army's needs. That would satisfy the Indian Army, which wants decent rifles and those who are averse to Western produced defense equipment.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Sep 2009 20:52

^^^ image intensifiers/night sights? or simple maginfication? instead of carrying binocs or NVG's?

btw - another reason not to find cartridges is that sometimes it is procedure to pick them up and bring them back for recycling.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 13 Sep 2009 21:48

I wonder why the Indian soldiers looks so tacky and yet they deliver and why those who look like Beckham and metrosexual are such failures?

All the glitters is not gold!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Sep 2009 21:55

what are you saying Sir ?

weshtern soldiers look like beckham AND they deliver !! please watch rambo for further proof !

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 13 Sep 2009 22:00

Rahul M wrote:what are you saying Sir ?

weshtern soldiers look like beckham AND they deliver !! please watch rambo for further proof !

No the western armies don't deliver.

But they are such loving teddy bears with shining armour to many around here!

We do deliver!

Even if we look tacky!

I wonder why the Indian soldiers looks so tacky and yet they deliver and why those who look like Beckham and metrosexual are such failures?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Sep 2009 22:07

with due respect Sir, they do deliver (in the hollywood movies) which in turn is the ultimate source of analysis on the competence of a military !

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 13 Sep 2009 22:12

Rahul M wrote:with due respect Sir, they do deliver (in the hollywood movies) which in turn is the ultimate source of analysis on the competence of a military !

Hollywood is a force multiplier unlike our balliwood.

koti · Post by **koti** » 13 Sep 2009 22:38

^^By how much would Using black synthetics (in places of brown) increase the unit cost of Insas?
And any word about about the new small arm tender that was supposed to be underway?

I now own a new loptop by the way...

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 13 Sep 2009 23:20

why are we feeding the troll??

Bheem · Post by **Bheem** » 13 Sep 2009 23:44

Most of the present assault rifles in the world are derived from two designs being Ak-47 and M-16. Ak-47 “firing mechanism & extraction” is very rugged while the M-16 focuses on accuracy. Some European nations decided to adopt Ak-47/74 design with higher quality manufacturing. Prime examples are FNC, Bofors, Valmet, Galil to name a few. My take, is that these designs left a lot to be desired as they placed the aiming sights on top of the hinged receiver dust cover. It is like building a Porche in which the only way to get in, is through the sun roof. M-16 was poor/delicate firing mechanism but a good layout primarily due to its ability to be field stripped by opening the lower receiver and the upper receiver + barrel + sights were rigidly attached.Now “almost all the modern designs” have adopted the firing mechanism of Ak-47/74 with M-16 style layout which was started by Sig and has been followed by Scar, Hk-416 & 417, new Colt designs, G-36 etc. This is also due to the fact that optical, night, thermal & holographic sights are becoming a norm/standard on almost all the rifles. Also the concept of DMR in each section in also finding favor. INSAS is also 1980s design with the same fault that sights are placed on top of hinged dust cover. Every time the rifle has to be field stripped, the cover has to be practically hammered open and the gun loses its zero. This lay out is also not suitable for mounting optical sights and picatinny rails. INSAS design is like FNC design and easily be evolved to new SCAR or G-36. The cost of R&D would be only Rs. 10 crores or so and it will save One Billon dollar imports.