Indian Military Aviation

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 17 Oct 2009 04:52

Ан-74Т-200МП (An-74T-200MP) - From MAKS 2009

http://i.flamber.ru/files/st2/121192255 ... 8899_o.jpg

Speculation? I haven't heard of this. Has anyone else?

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 17 Oct 2009 10:54

Army has to Wait for New Choppers
Indian Express

Army has to Wait for New Choppers
Manu Pubby
Posted online: Friday , Oct 16, 2009 at 0413 hrs

New Delhi : After a controversy that led to the cancellation of the tender in 2007, the Armed Force’s wait for new light helicopters to replace ageing Cheetah choppers that are the lifeline of thousands of troops deployed along the border is set to get longer due to major delays in the procurement process.

While the contract was cancelled two years ago after various discrepancies emerged in the selection process, the fresh Rs 3,000-crore tender to procure 197 helicopters is set to get delayed by at least a year with the government yet to take a decision on carrying out trials of the competing aircraft.

After new tenders were issued to six aviation giants last year, trials to evaluate the performance of the helicopters were expected to be carried out in India this summer, followed by a round of winter trials in November-December.

However, even after completing all technical evaluations and assuring the competing companies that validation trails will be held ‘shortly’, the Defence Ministry is yet to invite anyone for trials. While the summer deadline is far gone, pushing back the procurement by six months, the ministry has not even called the competitors for a round of winter trials, effectively pushing back the entire process by a year.

The trials will now only be possible next year, which means that the first of the new light helicopters will not arrive before 2013-14, more than five years behind schedule. As reported by The Indian Express, the earlier procurement process that started in 2002 had come under a cloud after discrepancies emerged in the selection process. Besides getting hit by the delay in trials, the current procurement process also got a setback last November after on the contenders, US aerospace giant Bell, pulled out from the tender citing a ‘stringent’ offsets clause that requires the winning contender to pump in 50 per cent of the purchase price into the Indian defence industry.

This delay comes even as the Armed Forces are struggling to maintain the fleet of ageing Cheetah helicopters that are used to carry supplies to troops posted at extreme altitudes on the Pakistan and China border. The Cheetah choppers, which are of the 1970’s vintage, ferry medicines, food and also carry out casualty evacuation for troops that are posted at positions located over 20,000 feet on the border. In the new tender, the Army was to get 133 helicopters while the remaining would have gone to the Air Force.

While Cheetahs are being used by both the Army and IAF for operations in extreme locations, the indigenous Dhruv helicopter is not faring well in high altitude tests that are currently being carried out in Ladakh and surrounding areas. The primary problem, evaluators say, is the helicopter’s inability to carry a ‘meaningful load’ of cargo to high altitude helipads.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 17 Oct 2009 13:53

edit.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Oct 2009 14:06

I have had a thought about the extreme slowness of deals made by India and I just wonder if that method is deliberately chosen to minimize kickbacks - because a series of babus and governments will have come and gone in doing the same deal making it difficult for any single set of people to make money from kickbacks. I mean - if a seller company develops deep deep contacts - it will come to naught as people move on and the deal takes too much time. Even the seller company will be losing its slush funds as time moves on.

Just a thought.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 17 Oct 2009 15:27

While Cheetahs are being used by both the Army and IAF for operations in extreme locations, the indigenous Dhruv helicopter is not faring well in high altitude tests that are currently being carried out in Ladakh and surrounding areas. The primary problem, evaluators say, is the helicopter’s inability to carry a ‘meaningful load’ of cargo to high altitude helipads.

he is talking out of his hat.
dhruv's high altitude performance is well documented. 619 kg @ 5940 m is superb performance by any standards (latest MSM).
reason why the forces are still looking for a light helo has more to do with cost effectiveness. for various utility and other roles using a twin engine helo is not cost effective.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 17 Oct 2009 19:05

May be the reporter has got a Packet from global aviation majors for bashing the MOD and Dhruv ... just one day back the in Indian Defense R&D thread DRDO newsletter on the performance of the DHRUV. Unless he mentions his source, there is no way he can question ALH's performance.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 17 Oct 2009 19:17

The slowness of the defense deals is due to a certain culture prevailing in the government circles. While one can not deny that at some level this delay is so that suppliers may cough up some monies to speed up the purchase, mostly it seems at the lower levels of the babooze it is over cautiousness that delays things.

Babooze are loath to put their signatures on documents because there is a certain fear in there that they might be implicated in god know what if something were to go wrong. The way the media behaves and the politics surrounding defense deals, kickbacks is 'understood' to have taken place unless proven otherwise.

No one wants to be left holding on to the parcel when the music stops it seems.

Just an example, if any one has gone to a babu in india to get something done, one can palpate that there is a real fear to do something in a hurry because of the fear of getting implicated in something unethical that might be uncovered at a later date. Seems to me the same applies here.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 17 Oct 2009 19:20

Rahul M wrote: dhruv's high altitude performance is well documented. 619 kg @ 5940 m is superb performance by any standards (latest MSM).
reason why the forces are still looking for a light helo has more to do with cost effectiveness. for various utility and other roles using a twin engine helo is not cost effective.

I wonder if it is possible for HAL to bring in the LOH super quick. The fact that it is based on dhruv, and the eons of experience that HAL has with designing and manufacturing the Dhruv, should translate into this being done really fast.
IIRC it has been nearly 4 yrs at least since the LOH being announced, and we still don't have a prototype yet.
No wonder the forces love to shop outside, even though they would prefer an equivalent local product.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 17 Oct 2009 20:47

Gagan wrote:
Rahul M wrote: dhruv's high altitude performance is well documented. 619 kg @ 5940 m is superb performance by any standards (latest MSM).
reason why the forces are still looking for a light helo has more to do with cost effectiveness. for various utility and other roles using a twin engine helo is not cost effective.
I wonder if it is possible for HAL to bring in the LOH super quick. The fact that it is based on dhruv, and the eons of experience that HAL has with designing and manufacturing the Dhruv, should translate into this being done really fast.
IIRC it has been nearly 4 yrs at least since the LOH being announced, and we still don't have a prototype yet.
No wonder the forces love to shop outside, even though they would prefer an equivalent local product.

HAL needs to either increase its workforce or outsource some of its functions to pvt sector to at least meet the deadlines on their current projects.. Otherwise, I fear, they might end up losing the support of the armed forces for their future projects... and stay stuck in licensing manufacturing imported weapons only...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Oct 2009 21:06

afaik the LOH was proposed but not approved or funded. the talk of buying bideshi LOH + some work on reengining of cheetah with turbomeca engine is 4 yrs old.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 17 Oct 2009 23:53

M 2000 upgrade cost 2.1 billion

india bought 40 su30mki for 2.2 billion and will buy 30 mig29k for 1.2 billion

or it can be said 50 mig29k can be bought for 2 billion

so if the upgrade cost is this costly better to go with limited avionics upgrade with new radar,MFD,EW for no more than 500 million

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 18 Oct 2009 00:22

How come the engine question is cropping is all of our programs?

- Tejas LCA
- Dhruv
- Sitara IJT

Whats up on the Shakti engine?

Singha wrote:afaik the LOH was proposed but not approved or funded. the talk of buying bideshi LOH + some work on reengining of cheetah with turbomeca engine is 4 yrs old.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Oct 2009 00:39

where does this question of a problem with the shakti engine come along ?
shakti engine has been performing beautifully. for a start, you may want to read the last two pages.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 18 Oct 2009 05:02

Rahul M wrote:
While Cheetahs are being used by both the Army and IAF for operations in extreme locations, the indigenous Dhruv helicopter is not faring well in high altitude tests that are currently being carried out in Ladakh and surrounding areas. The primary problem, evaluators say, is the helicopter’s inability to carry a ‘meaningful load’ of cargo to high altitude helipads.
he is talking out of his hat.
dhruv's high altitude performance is well documented. 619 kg @ 5940 m is superb performance by any standards (latest MSM).
reason why the forces are still looking for a light helo has more to do with cost effectiveness. for various utility and other roles using a twin engine helo is not cost effective.

POST EDITED

..maybe someone should throw that article on the Dhruv being able to carry 619 kgs at Siachen

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 18 Oct 2009 09:31

Edited

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Oct 2009 10:40

Dhruv being able to carry 619 kgs at Siachen.

The latest figures from the recent high altitude performance has effectively silenced the critics of the Dhruv.

At altitudes exceeding 6 kilometers the Dhruv has consistently carried 400+ kgs very comfortably.

At 600 kilos, the Shakthi engine temperature goes over the limit by a small margin.

The equivalent figures for the Cheetah would be roughly about 20 kilos.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 18 Oct 2009 13:33

That's it... Wow... no wonder the army is looking desperately for a new chopper... I wonder how the bases are being sustained with such a low payload...

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 18 Oct 2009 20:40

russia/israel can provide new radar,MFD,EW and targeting/recce systems for M2000 for no more than 500 million which is 10 million for each aircraft and use R77,python 5,R73 missiles instead already in inventory

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 18 Oct 2009 20:44

Bala Vignesh wrote:That's it... Wow... no wonder the army is looking desperately for a new chopper... I wonder how the bases are being sustained with such a low payload...

Did you miss a pill or something?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Oct 2009 22:10

Baldev wrote:russia/israel can provide new radar,MFD,EW and targeting/recce systems for M2000 for no more than 500 million which is 10 million for each aircraft and use R77,python 5,R73 missiles instead already in inventory

mirages would still need spare parts and other support from dassault.
an israeli upg could mean them stopping that.

bala, cheetah payload at those heights is 60 kg or thereabouts, not 20 kg IIRC. the shakti powered cheetah should do higher.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 18 Oct 2009 22:51

Rahul M wrote: mirages would still need spare parts and other support from dassault.
an israeli upg could mean them stopping that

don't think so france would ever do this

2.1 billion price really big which is hard to swallow and this is not going down through the throat of MoD, and i don't think MoD will go ahead even with if price reduced to 1.5 billion

thats why even 1 billion price for upgrade for a single engined aircraft is high unless it includes TOT for M53 engines

m mittal · Post by **m mittal** » 19 Oct 2009 01:11

Hi Baldev....can you please explain how you reached to this insightful inference??

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 19 Oct 2009 16:03

Rahulda.. Thanks for the correction....

Vivek sir, am i missing something here???

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 19 Oct 2009 19:30

Rahul M wrote: bala, cheetah payload at those heights is 60 kg or thereabouts, not 20 kg IIRC. the shakti powered cheetah should do higher.

Bala, you seem to missed the entire point actually! Please see Rahul's post explaining the load carrying capacity of the Dhruv. At heights the Cheetah can carry only 60 Kgs while the Dhruv can now cary 619 kgs which is a remarkable development. I will let you find out the payload of the Dhruv at normal operating altitudes for yourself. The BR page for it may be a starting point.

It is not for this reason that the Army is looking for a Medium lift Chopper.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 19 Oct 2009 19:40

ISRO, IAF Spar over Seats on India's Maiden Space Odyssey

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 19 Oct 2009 19:58

Singha wrote:afaik the LOH was proposed but not approved or funded. the talk of buying bideshi LOH + some work on reengining of cheetah with turbomeca engine is 4 yrs old.

Found one confusing source on this issue ---

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =AIR&s=TOP

Last year, HAL bagged an order for 187 Light Observation Helicopters, while the remaining order for 197 copters was floated globally. Sources in the Defence Ministry said HAL is on a global hunt to find partners to speed up that program, so that the Army can take delivery of the helicopters by 2014.

According to the article the army has already ordered 187 LOHs, even before a prototype is built or flight evaluation is completed. Does this make any sense ?? The LCA which is already nearing IOC is still being ordered in very low numbers. I believe that, more likely the army has committed to LOH program by guaranteeing HAL that it would buy half the required amount of LUHs from HAL.

But the Light Observation Helicopter program also is delayed, as the Defence Ministry canceled the procurement process for 197 helicopters at the final stage, in which Eurocopter emerged as the front-runner against Bell Helicopter of the United States. However, following Bell's complaints on issues of transparency in the procurement process, the government decided to cancel the contest and seek fresh bids.

HAL is developing the 3-metric-ton Light Observation Helicopter and the program is on track, said a HAL official.

Does mean that full funding will only be provided once HAL finds a partner for LOH ? The LUH deal will inevitably slow the LOH program. But, I still don't understand why HAL wants a partner for LOH ??

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 19 Oct 2009 21:27

Rahul M wrote:
bala, cheetah payload at those heights is 60 kg or thereabouts, not 20 kg IIRC. the shakti powered cheetah should do higher.

Going up to the glacier, the max payload works out to a jerry can of kerosene. That's all that they can carry and this is extremely precious cargo that is greatly welcomed by the freezing troops.

Coming down they can carry roughly about 60kgs or so because they have burnt about (approx) 40 kgs of fuel on the way up.

Dhanush · Post by **Dhanush** » 19 Oct 2009 22:25

Astra to make its first flight
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 19 Oct 2009 22:49

Dhanush wrote:Astra to make its first flight
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/

seeker is agat1348 which has 16km lock on range

don't know ow to make image smaller?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 20 Oct 2009 00:28

Baldev wrote:
Dhanush wrote:Astra to make its first flight
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/
seeker is agat1348 which has 16km lock on range

don't know ow to make image smaller?

source ? the reason I ask is that I've read in an earlier issue of AW&ST that the seeker was of French origin.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 20 Oct 2009 01:20

Kartik wrote:source ? the reason I ask is that I've read in an earlier issue of AW&ST that the seeker was of French origin.

if astra get french seeker its cost will be sky high and french made seeker will cost much more than similar russian seeker for the similar performance

just like Arjun tank's imported engine and sight costs more than half the cost of tank

by the way only seeker available from France is one on MICA,so looking at the scale of economy its hard to believe that Astra has french seeker when equally capable active missiles seekers available from Russia at much cheaper price keeping the missile price low

same for AAD and PAD which have got Russian active missile seekers

moreover Mr shukla himself talked to DRDO people involved in astra development about the seeker used in missile so he can't be wrong in this

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Oct 2009 07:06

Dhanush wrote:Astra to make its first flight
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/

wrong thread and wrong url.

Baldev wrote:same for AAD and PAD which have got Russian active missile seekers

moreover Mr shukla himself talked to DRDO people involved in astra development about the seeker used in missile so he can't be wrong in this

source for the PAD/AAD claim ??

shukla doesn't mention agat once in the latest article btw. so, kindly give a source for that too.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 20 Oct 2009 07:09

there can be limited avionics upgrade for m2000 not exceeding 300-350 million if HAL being prime contractor and israel being secondary contractor just like mig27 upgrade
for this

50 ELTA 2032 radars (cost < 100 million)
150 MFD (either from SAMTEL or ELBIT)(http://www.elbitsystems.com/productsInn ... _Family=28)
60 Top Owl HMS
50 HUD (http://www.el-op.com/files/PDF/Displays/UN_F16_HUD.pdf)
50 inertial Navigation and Global Positioning System from Thales
50 mission and system computers(CAC) from DARE
50 sets of TARANG RWR
50 sets of radio communication(indian built)
50 sets of data link IAI
50 sets of flight data recorder(indian built)
50 digital map system(http://www.elbitsystems.com/productsDet ... asp?id=601)
50 sets of either internal jammer or PAJ FA or ELTA8222

retaining exixting weapon control system with new interface box just like on mig27 to enable adding new weapon systems

mirage already have LDP and flare systems so no need for that

in this process only radars and data link being costly but many other system are cheaper and of indian origin so this can be done in the cost projected above easily.

no need to go to israel and pay 1 billion to them just for the above things which our country is capable of doing already

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 20 Oct 2009 07:46

Errr....Baldev ji with my limited knowledge I would imagine that seekers for missiles like PAD and AAD would be very specialised I dont see them being of Russian or of phoren origin...if anything they'd be SDRE seekers onlee....

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 20 Oct 2009 07:56

deleted

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 20 Oct 2009 08:04

andy B wrote:Errr....Baldev ji with my limited knowledge I would imagine that seekers for missiles like PAD and AAD would be very specialised I dont see them being of Russian or of phoren origin...if anything they'd be SDRE seekers onlee....

why seekers in AAD or PAD be specialized

when knowing that ballistic missiles fly at high altitude and don't pull high Gs and easier to detect so this means terminal active radar seeker doesn't need to have wide angular lock on capability

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Oct 2009 09:16

livefist has pix of c130, c17 and phalcon hanger in agra.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 21 Oct 2009 17:50

IOL Says that If India goes in for UAE's 63 mirages, India won't have to upgrade the M2K's in the present fleet. There is some sort of conflict with Thales and Dassault who is opposing Dassault selling the M2K's to India. Thales are probably bidding for contracts to upgrade M2K's.. Abu Dhabi's M2K's was originally offered to Romania, but looks like they got no $$$'s, so Dassault wants to offer it to India, so India won't have to upgrade. Possibly an exchange deal of some sort.

sum · Post by **sum** » 21 Oct 2009 18:16

After all the high hopes raised during the Qatar deal, would not want to prematurely celebrate much needed new mirages coming to the fleet since it may finally be shot down as too costly (like last time)...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Oct 2009 18:56

The seeker of PAD is atleast a joint development between Russia and India , confirmed some time back by Dr Saraswat , we did have discussion on the missile thread,not sure about AAD seeker.