Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2011

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Feb 2011 21:35

I am amazed at how difficult it is to get ostensibly Indian people to admit that US arms to Pakistan are harmful to India. This is something I had not realised. I thought it was a no brainer - but for some people allegiance to America and "understanding America" is more important that any risk to Indians. Amazing learning experience.

I mean - why complain about leftists showing allegiance to China and Indian Islamists flying the Pakistani flag. Here we have "Rah Rah Rah America" in full swing.

But it tells me that we have so many political opinions to contend with. Some do not see china to be a problem. Some don't see Islamism as a problem. And some can see no fault with America. With ostensibly Indian people showing verbal loyalty to some foreign powers - getting consensus is not easy.

The simplistic opinion would be to imagine that everyone keeps Indian interest at heart and then complains about someone or the other. In fact what actually happens is vested interests who for example might feel that Pakistanis are right and the Indians and Americans are wrong, or that Americans are right and Indians are wrong. Islamists and leftists are driven out of this forum but ahem ahem are allowd to push their view on here. Blow me down.

So for any given opinion on this thread we have to check where the allegiance may lie so that we can "understand" where they are coming from - given that "understanding" of all sorts of undesirable actions is being demanded of us. What a laugh. But a learning experience nevertheless. And everyone with double or triple allegiances claims a primary loyalty to India.

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 17 Feb 2011 21:45

shiv wrote: Thanks for being forthright enough to state an opinion on this. I don;t know if I agree or not - I have not thought about it - but it is certainly one option.
But a Pakistani nuke hitting a US target and in Xinjiang or Tibet would make both those countries aware of the consequences of their actions.

Yes, sometime back you had mentioned in one of your posts that India has to raise Xinjiang issue. I have been saying the same thing since long.
That is the way to go.

Raising the issue of mistreatment of Islam in Xinjiang whenever there is any provocation by China(POK roads, Stapled Visas, Border ingressions) would put both TSP and Chipanda on backfoot. Even a blind person can see that Islam in India is not under threat. Its only under threat in China, among all Asian countries. Chipanda is heavily dependent on ME for all its oil supplies. TSP deliberately puts it under carpet. A more purer talibani TSP leadership may not. For India best scenario is either a more patriotic TSP leadership or a pure Talibani leadership. The current leadership is neither TSP patriotic nor Islamic enough. Its just pure anti-India.

Arms sale by Unkil to TSP were a critical factor before 1974. In 1965 the arms sale by Unkil(Pattons, Sabres) could have been decisive. But that is all past. India slowly made itself powerful enough that these arms sale became meaningless. Also through diplomacy and economy now India can always buy 3x whatever TSP can. Today 2 more squadrons of F16 are just to keep H&D of TSP, in Indian security matrix they are just blimps. Unkil sells these to everyone. even Singapore has F16s, so does Bahrain. Both Singapore and Bahrain are the size of Delhi city.

So the real question is how to stop Chipanda from further helping TSP, and to punish for what it already has done. It may be time to give Tibetan Youth Congress a few of suitcase nookes, just in case.

25 years from now, India Chipanda trade will be so large that millions would be employed in Chipanda due to India. Chipandas are extremely money minded, as an individual person and as a nation. They would do everything in their power to keep that going TSP or no TSP, or else any loss of that trade with millions unemployed could create a violent revolution there. That's why you see now Chipanda slowly telling TSP to cool it down, during Kargil and other times.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 17 Feb 2011 21:45

shiv wrote:... Some do not see china to be a problem. Some don't see Islamism as a problem. And some can see no fault with America...

Few individuals choose to be "Zara Hatke"

negi · Post by **negi** » 17 Feb 2011 21:49

This is funny indeed had it not been for 'complicit' Unkil munna wouldn't have got it's nukes and missiles (check what Unkil did with Libyan centrifuges or even with Iran's programme), it even had to send in it's 7th fleet to save munna's ar$e in 71, now that it has more or less ensured that TSP become a liability for the civilized world people claim that Unkil wants a graceful exit from the region ? All this when Lyn Choo has got hold of Unkil's b@lls and assumed full charge as TSP's new body guard.

munna · Post by **munna** » 17 Feb 2011 21:55

Shiv-ji is right! When everybody has set up a shop to mortgage bits and pieces of nation to their favourite totem pole deity then why exempt a few from scrutiny? Commies can't dare think beyond masters in East, Ummah folks cannot see beyond masters in middle East, while NRI/Sooted Booted/white collar non-national anthem singers dare not question Uh-may-ri-cah. Where do poor yindoos go to find a master?

Not fair only.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 17 Feb 2011 21:59

shiv wrote:I am amazed at how difficult it is to get ostensibly Indian people to admit that US arms to Pakistan are harmful to India. This is something I had not realised. I thought it was a no brainer - but for some people allegiance to America and "understanding America" is more important that any risk to Indians. Amazing learning experience.

I was shouting about this some years back and nobody supported me. This is the dhimmitude which is very dangerous and makaka of the brains has to be reversed. I noticed it long time with the leftist with whom I am close and they gave out details of their careers in US

It is the media in the last 15 years and the sociologists trained in the US would be the one i would blame.

The simplistic opinion would be to imagine that everyone keeps Indian interest at heart and then complains about someone or the other. In fact what actually happens is vested interests who for example might feel that Pakistanis are right and the Indians and Americans are wrong, or that Americans are right and Indians are wrong. Islamists and leftists are driven out of this forum but ahem ahem are allowd to push their view on here. Blow me down.

The last 40 years of social engineering and the global media has made many Indians confused with their worldview and about Indian interest.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 17 Feb 2011 22:01

Karna_A wrote: Chipandas are extremely money minded, as an individual person and as a nation. They would do everything in their power to keep that going TSP or no TSP, or else any loss of that trade with millions unemployed could create a violent revolution there. That's why you see now Chipanda slowly telling TSP to cool it down, during Kargil and other times.

With India they have a complex relations.

1, US arms sales to Taiwan is a factor
2. Indias support to HHDL is a factor
3. India stance on TAR is a factor
4. India s relationship with Japan, Viet and ASEAN is a factor
5. India s control over the IOR is a factor
6. India s influence in SAARC and Myanmar is a factor
7. India s deep relations with Nepal is a factor
8. India s new realtions with US and growing geo political clout is a factor

They have not really been neutral in Kargil and since then.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Feb 2011 22:03

I don't know every thread on BRF becomes a divisive issue to whine about Indians!

Munna don't fall for that.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 17 Feb 2011 22:03

Shiv/Somnath/VikramS et .al,

Just as in the ICC 2011 WC which is underway, there is a need for a 3rd umpire to adjudicate controversial decisions. likewise, I need to step in to resolve the opposing views: those who claim that US-led 3.5 support to TSP is the cause for India unable to punish TSP, and those who say that US support is just a lame excuse and India's own fault.

So, after watching TV replays, hawk-eye, you name, here is my final decision on the reason why TSP, terrorist basketcase that is 7 times smaller than India, has gotten away with day-light murder of India, has the potential to annhilate India in the future, and continues to reap huge rewards from the 3.5. As in many things in life, truth is not always black and white, there are shades of grey.

Cause for India's pathetic state visa vi TSP:

1) 45% due to US military/economic/diplomatic support to TSP

Diplomatic support includes: equal equal colinial prism through which US views India and TSP, pigLET terror against India outside gambit of GWOT, and charming, cajoling, bribing, and forcing the spinless dhotiwallhs in Delhi to surrender to TSP demands.

2) 30% due to India's own pussilanimity, incompteence, corruption, Indian security apparatus (military, intelligence etc) unable to come up with a truly operational doctrine like cold start that can punish TSP below the nuke threshold. (And if US reports are to be believed, even on the nuke front, TSP is ahead).

3) 25% due to India's inherent weankess due to lack of western or Isalmic style nationalism and unity. In one stroke, by speciously bringing in "saffron terror", MMS has wiped out TSP's colossal crimes against India. A nation grounded on solid nationalism would never have forgiven MMS for such a betrayal.

On #3, as an aside, consider the US example. Can you imagine Obama even hint, I mean even hint of an equivalnece between Christian right and Al Queda? I mean Obama has to prove every minute that he is not a Muslim or else Fox news wiith its millions of followers will chew him up for breakfast. Now thats white Christian nationalism for you, and hence there is massive public support for instant retribution to any hanky panky from Isalmic extremists and their supporters who will summarily be rounded up and sent into one of the torture camps run by CIA.

vnadendla · Post by **vnadendla** » 17 Feb 2011 22:31

We keep going back to the same issue oft.

I think Indian strategy is - Develop, Develop, Develop. Don't get into a dogfight with Pakis. Solve our own issues - Illiteracy, population, poverty, internal divisions; as practically possible within our chaotic political system. If we can get to 2050 with average 8-10 % growth rate, intact and our internal problems manageable then 3.5 + the monkey are irrelevant.

Pakis may think India is out to get them. I don't think we have to make an effort.

May Pakis learn from Bangladesh (with all difficulties they pose still as they develop they become manageable)

We should not care about China being faster etc. Just getting a good life for our people is our goal. All we need to make sure is that our growth is not hindered / prevented. Of course that is what China is trying to do.

US, UK are our partners in growth. We need to get into that inner circle. All the above is what MMS trying to do.

Vijay

CRamS wrote:Shiv/Somnath/VikramS et .al,

Just as in the ICC 2011 WC which is underway, there is a need for a 3rd umpire to adjudicate controversial decisions. likewise, I need to step in to resolve the opposing views: those who claim that US-led 3.5 support to TSP is the cause for India unable to punish TSP, and those who say that US support is just a lame excuse and India's own fault.

So, after watching TV replays, hawk-eye, you name, here is my final decision on the reason why TSP, terrorist basketcase that is 7 times smaller than India, has gotten away with day-light murder of India, has the potential to annhilate India in the future, and continues to reap huge rewards from the 3.5. As in many things in life, truth is not always black and white, there are shades of grey.

Cause for India's pathetic state visa vi TSP:

1) 45% due to US military/economic/diplomatic support to TSP

Diplomatic support includes: equal equal colinial prism through which US views India and TSP, pigLET terror against India outside gambit of GWOT, and charming, cajoling, bribing, and forcing the spinless dhotiwallhs in Delhi to surrender to TSP demands.

2) 30% due to India's own pussilanimity, incompteence, corruption, Indian security apparatus (military, intelligence etc) unable to come up with a truly operational doctrine like cold start that can punish TSP below the nuke threshold. (And if US reports are to be believed, even on the nuke front, TSP is ahead).

3) 25% due to India's inherent weankess due to lack of western or Isalmic style nationalism and unity. In one stroke, by speciously bringing in "saffron terror", MMS has wiped out TSP's colossal crimes against India. A nation grounded on solid nationalism would never have forgiven MMS for such a betrayal.

On #3, as an aside, consider the US example. Can you imagine Obama even hint, I mean even hint of an equivalnece between Christian right and Al Queda? I mean Obama has to prove every minute that he is not a Muslim or else Fox news wiith its millions of followers will chew him up for breakfast. Now thats white Christian nationalism for you, and hence there is massive public support for instant retribution to any hanky panky from Isalmic extremists and their supporters who will summarily be rounded up and sent into one of the torture camps run by CIA.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 17 Feb 2011 22:57

Insights can be obtained once pakistan (more specially paki army) is seen as an extension of Unkil's army serving under the green flag and different insignia. Basically pakistan is the farthest outpost of Unkil. The paki army unit is provided all leeway to rape and pillage in the neighbourhood as long as its status-quo as the colonial outpost is maintained.

The outpost is required to perform certain duties, which can be hampered only
1) By India - thrashing them hard
2) By Talibs - who divert them away from their assigned duties.
A semblemance of Independence to pak is touted. Unkil cannot directly demand outrageous things from India, hence its outpost is projected on its behalf.
Hence, constant reminder for India to talk to its outpost guardians. While worrying if talibs would facilitate and hasten India to thrash the outpost.

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 17 Feb 2011 23:00

The Raymond Davis affair reminds me of the Indian story:

A King befriends a foolish monkey. Despite the objection of his loyal subjects and ministers and friends, he spends most of his time with the monkey. One day as the King is sleeping a bee threatenes to disrupt his sleep. The monkey takes out his sword and lashes at the bee. In the process, he cut off the King's nose. The moral of the story is: a wise enemy is better than a foolish friend.

Chipanda should also worry about its tail now, its just a matter of time.

Raman · Post by **Raman** » 17 Feb 2011 23:08

Mihaylo wrote: Possible scenarios:
RD is bumped off somehow
RD is released
RD stays longer in prison

All three scenarios are bad for Pakistan

Wondering if it might be possible for RD to "escape", especially when moving to/from court or to another facility

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Feb 2011 23:10

Read the Nightwatch comments posted above. US expects some major issues to their staff from the RD affair. The TSP is stretching the resolution as they want to increase the people anger and want some other concessions from US. Its related to other Bournes.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 17 Feb 2011 23:25

vnadendla wrote: All we need to make sure is that our growth is not hindered / prevented.

And you think TSP, and its 3.5 will sit by and watch as SDREs moved ahead, which in any case cannot occur as you yourself pointed out that India needs to get into the inner circle of US/UK. They don't minds us SDREs in, as long as the entry is controlled by them, and if India resists this, they have the TSP stick to beat India with. This is plain and simple geo-politics 101.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 17 Feb 2011 23:32

Pranav wrote:
Civil Unrest in Pakistan

Like many parts of the developing world, civil unrest in Pakistan can quickly turn to extreme violence. One example that must certainly be on the minds of the security personnel at the U.S. Embassy and the U.S. consulates in Pakistan is the November 1979 incident in which an enraged mob seized and destroyed the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad. While there were only two Americans killed in that incident — a Marine security guard shot as he stood on the roof of the embassy and an Army warrant officer who died when an apartment building on the embassy compound was torched — the fire that the mob set inside the building very nearly killed all the employees who had sought shelter in the embassy’s inner safe-haven area. Two local Pakistani staff members were also killed in the fire.

The 1979 attack was said to have been sparked by reports that the U.S. government was behind an assault on the Grand Mosque in Mecca by Saudi militants the day before. In reality, the mob that stormed and torched the U.S. Embassy was at least tolerated, if not orchestrated, by the Pakistani government, which was angry that the United States cut off financial aid to the country in April 1979. Not only did the Pakistani government facilitate the busing of large numbers of protesters to the U.S. Embassy, its security forces also stood aside and refused to protect the embassy from the onslaught of the angry mob. The embassy assault was Pakistan’s not-so-subtle way of sending a message to the U.S. government.

http://www.speroforum.com/site/article. ... vil+Unrest
Did the US cut off aid to the Paks in 1979?

Yes, in April of 1979. In June that year they also refused to support multilateral debt repayment relief. All of this was about Kahuta. The PA shipped a battery of Crotale SAMs there when it was reported in the news that Ambassador Gerard C. Smith's inter-departmental working group in DC had put all options on the table including military action.

This is why Zia and the PA didn't really lift a finger to save the embassy from the JI's mobs in November.

Then on December 25th the Soviets invaded and Brzezinski finally had his way, and the nuclear issue became a non-issue for the USG.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 17 Feb 2011 23:36

RajeshA wrote:
Anujan wrote:I wont spoil it for you guys, but watch between 2:00 and 2:10
Senator Mai-Baap!

Its deep in their subconscious. Now you know how a convert lacks the inherent strength which make his defend the soul issues. Ganjan and rest of the G..us did not even catch the mistake.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 17 Feb 2011 23:38

Gagan wrote:Have you all noticed something.

This Raymond Davis episode is proving to be the beginning of Nawaz Sharif's rehabilitation and rapprochement with the west.
Massa's politicians are calling him up, because they know that he runs things in Punjab. And he is sitting in Lahore.

Quite right, but can Nawaz really deliver on his own? Or even in tandem with Zardari?

Davis seems to have killed two ISI men. That is a bill that must be settled with the PA.

The Qadri factor can not be overlooked either. There are elements in the system beyond the control of the Muslim League, the PPP and the PA/ISI even when they agree on something.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 17 Feb 2011 23:47

Musharraf and his men behind Bhutto killing: Pakistani scribe

New Delhi, Feb 17 (IANS) All those in the Pakistan establishment led by former president General Pervez Musharraf who feared losing power following the return of Benazir Bhutto wanted to get rid of her, says Pakistan's top journalist-turned writer Amir Mir.

Mir, who was close to the slain former prime minister till her assassination Dec 27, 2007, is in the news for his new book, 'The Bhutto Murder Trail: From Waziristan to GHQ (Westland),' in which he has raised several allegations against the former military chief of Pakistan.

Mir's accusation comes at a time when the court investigating Bhutto's murder is closing in on Musharraf.

The Rawalpindi trial court hearing the Bhutto murder case has ordered the joint investigation team of Pakistan's Federal Investigation Agency to arrest Musharraf for being one of the murder suspects and produce him in court Feb 19, the next date of hearing.

Mir said he strongly believed that Musharraf and his associates in the military establishment were responsible for the assassination of Bhutto.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 17 Feb 2011 23:47

"And you think TSP, and its 3.5 will sit by and watch as SDREs moved ahead, which in any case cannot occur as you yourself pointed out that India needs to get into the inner circle of US/UK. They don't minds us SDREs in, as long as the entry is controlled by them, and if India resists this, they have the TSP stick to beat India with. This is plain and simple geo-politics 101."

Well said. Pakistan is not a country, never has been. It is an artifice designed to suit very specific groups, both domestic and international. The domestic interests are the landlords, the rich, the mullahs and of course the military. The international interests are first the UK, who facilitated its creation, the US which pumped massive amounts of conventional arms into the place( ostensibly to deal with communism) and more lately China with its own hegemonic, imperial goals.

India for all its huge problems, is a country of people, and one with an enlightened philosophy and ideology. As has been pointed out before, there are powerful interests in the US and UK, and now China, who strongly oppose the spread of this philosophy and ideology, and system. That's why Pakistan is there, as also Myanmar, Nepal and the unenlightened traditional leadership of Sri Lanka.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 17 Feb 2011 23:52

Johann wrote:Quite right, but can Nawaz really deliver on his own? Or even in tandem with Zardari?

No, but the entire problem with the Raymond Davis case got extra complicated from the American POV due to the efforts of Nawaz and Shahbaz.
They allowed it to stew, and the abduls on the streets got wind of it.
If they had wanted to, hypothetically it is a possibility that they would have whisked him away from Jail before anyone got wind of it.

But they killed two birds with one stone.
1. Increased troubles for Zardari - letting him get caught between the Abduls and the US on opposing sides.
2. The US gets to come back to him licking their wounds and having to ask him for help / cooperation.
In return he will have a quid pro quo in mind.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Feb 2011 00:05

Gagan, It increase the Pakjabi-Sindhi fualt line. The Pakjabi will never allow a Sindhi to rule.
And TSPA is a Pakjabi force.

So RD affair has multiple hits on multiple fronts.

India better be on alert for TSP lashes at India when things go bad for them with US.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 18 Feb 2011 00:12

ramana wrote:Gagan, It increase the Pakjabi-Sindhi fualt line. The Pakjabi will never allow a Sindhi to rule.
And TSPA is a Pakjabi force.

So RD affair has multiple hits on multiple fronts.

India better be on alert for TSP lashes at India when things go bad for them with US.

Probably that is the reason for US predicting a LeT attack on India.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Feb 2011 00:14

My feeling about TSP's situation is.
If India's strategic minds suspect that the Pakistan based terrorists are close to having a dirty weapon, then that raises some difficult choices for India.

We share such a big border with them, and the sea lanes are so porous that a JDAM on India is difficult to monitor and stop.
The really hardline Jihadis might prefer to do a JDAM against massa, but in view of the immense logistical problems they'll face in doing so, they might settle on the next most juicy target.

The Pakistani establishment is 400% going to point them towards the east to India. The establishment will not let its Jihadis strike massa with a JDAM, the smaller pinpricks are acceptable.

The chances are increasing when they will do a Mumbai - II on India like Hoodbhoy says. I and other BRFites suspect that they might try something spectacular. I only hope they are not crazy enough to do / allow a JDAM.

I think there is some intel that has been doing the rounds in the corridors of power, and so the Spirit of Thimpu gets revived.

vnadendla · Post by **vnadendla** » 18 Feb 2011 00:15

Yes. And my point is Develop, Develop, Develop with single minded vision. Don't expect world to be perfect. Or try to overreach. After 60 years we are yet to produce a decent fighter jet and try to buy with $10 B. We should be selling. We have a long way to go and people will listen when they have to. Not a day before.

And at last with PVN, ABV and now MMS we are doing it. The entry / exits can be handled latter in year 2050 by our children.

Varoon Shekhar wrote:"And you think TSP, and its 3.5 will sit by and watch as SDREs moved ahead, which in any case cannot occur as you yourself pointed out that India needs to get into the inner circle of US/UK. They don't minds us SDREs in, as long as the entry is controlled by them, and if India resists this, they have the TSP stick to beat India with. This is plain and simple geo-politics 101."

Well said. Pakistan is not a country, never has been. It is an artifice designed to suit very specific groups, both domestic and international. The domestic interests are the landlords, the rich, the mullahs and of course the military. The international interests are first the UK, who facilitated its creation, the US which pumped massive amounts of conventional arms into the place( ostensibly to deal with communism) and more lately China with its own hegemonic, imperial goals.

India for all its huge problems, is a country of people, and one with an enlightened philosophy and ideology. As has been pointed out before, there are powerful interests in the US and UK, and now China, who strongly oppose the spread of this philosophy and ideology, and system. That's why Pakistan is there, as also Myanmar, Nepal and the unenlightened traditional leadership of Sri Lanka.

Ananya · Post by **Ananya** » 18 Feb 2011 00:23

apparenly with the things unfolding there are couple of things which stikes and stands profound.

1. No drone attacks since this epesode
2. No major Bomb attacks either
3. Gandhi is getting very worked about
4. Hilary and Gandhi are having a subtle power sttruggle
5. Petreous is going to get releived just in time for the primarys
6. The haqanni group also needs time to regroup as i understand Talibs are facing losses in helmand

TSP has realised this and making the calulations. SBP is also printing notes aboout 3Bl rupees daily.
given all this TSP is using this issue to milk everybody to the fulest possible extent ( Political and Monitory ) . Won't be supprised if K and Composite dialog is also linked now.

TSP has senced BO's weakness and has decided to use it .

won't be supprised if we will see a weather chanel episode of this 10 years down the line ,similiar in lines of Carter' last days in power

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 18 Feb 2011 00:24

ChandraV: Thanks for nailing it.

shiv: No one is arguing that US arms to TSP are not bad for India. Your interpretation is not consistent with the message being put forward.

As Karna put it: It is AK vs a Bofors. You continue to ignore the Bofors while the AKs get all your attention.

You have said that you are going to address it but continue to make posts which misconstrue the message. China is the world's second largest economy. Why do you think that the Chinese will be less willing to oblige the RAPE when it is next door, when the US was willing to do it half the way across the world. And what about the other Sunni countries? In case you missed it, the crackdown in Baharein, was led by Urdu speaking Pakistani men.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Feb 2011 00:29

But I don't think Nai Dilli has the political space to relent on the Pakistani front.

The opposition just got revitalized with a capital R after MMS's performance in the Newsperson's conference. Now all the opposition needs is a PM candidate.

Pakistan senses that they have the US where they've always wanted them to be, and will extract the maximum that they can.
1. No N waziristan operations now.
2. Go slow on drone attacks.
3. Movement on Kashmir.
4. Arms and ammunition and Aid
5. Leniency on the nuclear front. I suspect that the Chinese are giving them Pu weapons capability as we speak.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Feb 2011 00:35

Gagan wrote:My feeling about TSP's situation is.
If India's strategic minds suspect that the Pakistan based terrorists are close to having a dirty weapon, then that raises some difficult choices for India.

We share such a big border with them, and the sea lanes are so porous that a JDAM on India is difficult to monitor and stop.
The really hardline Jihadis might prefer to do a JDAM against massa, but in view of the immense logistical problems they'll face in doing so, they might settle on the next most juicy target.

The Pakistani establishment is 400% going to point them towards the east to India. The establishment will not let its Jihadis strike massa with a JDAM, the smaller pinpricks are acceptable.

The chances are increasing when they will do a Mumbai - II on India like Hoodbhoy says. I and other BRFites suspect that they might try something spectacular. I only hope they are not crazy enough to do / allow a JDAM.

I think there is some intel that has been doing the rounds in the corridors of power, and so the Spirit of Thimpu gets revived.

Gagan,
From what I understand the whole TSPA is itself jihadi. Its in their motto for goodness sakes. There is no question of loose nukes in TSP. Its question of whether the controllers/handlers are with or without uniform. And this with or without uniform is based on what benefits them the most. If US backs them they will be in uniform. Otherwise its without.

Another 26/11 type attack will be another mosquito bite. Also dont forget there was an unwritten support via DCH. TSP knew DCH was US asset. Its another matter US says they did not know he was workign for terrorists in TSP. And give them benfit of doubt. So TSp thoguht they had implicit support. A repeat will not have such assumptions and thus Pervez Hoodbhoy is again conjuring up a monster to scare India into talks.

All the people: DC NPA, Indian WKK, Indian lifafas, TSP chatterati are all in togther to scare up a bad image of TSP demand India hand over Kashmir or else?

India should say so what? We already have that threat.

VikramS and others,
ChandraV 's question will be answered in the US-PRC relationship thread and not here.
ramana

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 18 Feb 2011 00:42

VikramS wrote:ChandraV: Thanks for nailing it.

shiv: No one is arguing that US arms to TSP are not bad for India. Your interpretation is not consistent with the message being put forward.

As Karna put it: It is AK vs a Bofors. You continue to ignore the Bofors while the AKs get all your attention.

Are you under the impression that the Paki nuclear program(or rather transfer of chinese knowhow) did not have the overt permission if not the enthusiastic backing of the Americans? There are reams of information enough on this on the web to not need to post this.

It sure isin't AK vs Bofors. Its AK and bofors. With the AK for muft of course! And we've been losing lives to those AKs, incase you've been missing all the orbituaries tucked away on page2. Terrorism & Infiltration occurs under the overwatch of conventional arms supplied by the USA under the overhang of nukes permitted by the USA.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 18 Feb 2011 01:09

anjan: One word answer to your comment about the TSP Nuke program being allowed to grow by Uncle.

CONTEXT.

About weapons supplied by the US, I have asked folks to dig deeper but have not seen any response. Let us discuss that with some detail, before forming an opinion on what enables what.

ramana: Why the US-China-India thread when the focus is on TSPs sugar-daddies?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Feb 2011 02:20

A time to re-evaluate our ties with America
The writer is a former editor of The Nation and ex-head of the Institute of Strategic Studies in Islamabad

http://tribune.com.pk/story/119876/a-ti ... h-america/

Once again, Pakistan is being subject to the usual US imperial arrogance — this time on the Raymond Davis case. We have had threats of all kinds simply to get a murderer released and even President Barack Obama has jumped into the fray, imperially claiming that Davis has diplomatic immunity! Of course US presidents, in recent times at least, have been known for their lies, with Bush commencing his Iraq war on the lie that it had weapons of mass destruction and Colin Powell brazenly lying to the UN Security Council about it. So Obama may be following yet another Bush tradition, after his exuberant adoption of his predecessor’s policy on drones. Such imperial hubris, reflected in the threats that aid will be cut off and planned meetings postponed, should be seen as an opportunity by the Pakistani state to re-evaluate its relationship with the US and restructure it more favourably. If the whole ‘strategic’ edifice is under threat over the issue of Raymond Davis, one really wonders whether there ever was a relationship to begin with. Take the example of our longstanding strategic ally China: Has this relationship ended despite the targeted killings of Chinese nationals working in Pakistan?
In any case, with the material evidence, including photographs of sensitive military offices, recovered from Davis’s as well as his pay slip for the period beginning September 2010, he clearly falls into the category of being hired by the US State Department’s Bureau of Diplomatic Security and is in all probability a CIA ‘stringer’ intelligence agent. In fact, as the facts of Davis come to light, it appears he may have deliberately allowed the second car (which was sent by the US consulate to rescue him) to speed away as it may have had more covert operatives in it. Interestingly, in November 2009 and later in 2010, Davis was caught in restricted military locations in Peshawar and reportedly the Foreign Office verbally asked the US embassy to remove him from Peshawar. Proper interrogation of Davis is essential now for Pakistan to discover the linkages with a range of suspected US covert activities.

( US wants him back, RD might be last Veil left between Poak Musharraf and Unkil's Pakistan )

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Feb 2011 02:30

Vikram the other thread provides better context of the interplays between the three and India.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 18 Feb 2011 03:31

CRamS wrote:
Cause for India's pathetic state visa vi TSP:

1) 45% due to US military/economic/diplomatic support to TSP
2) 30% due to India's own pussilanimity, incompteence, corruption
3) 25% due to India's inherent weankess due to lack of western or Isalmic style nationalism and unity.

I might even agree with you on percentages.
BUT, BUT, BUT - not on this thread.

1. We do not hyphenate India and Pakistan (e.g., bringing up Indian communal riots or Indian-based terrorism or Indian poverty or corruption in a thread of its own is fine; but never as an equal-equal with Pakistan).

2. In particular, Indian self-problems and failures should never discussed in conjunction with Pakistan - we don't say - even if it happened to be true - that J&K problem is 25% Indian-caused and 75% Pakistan-caused.

3. Why is there this exception with regard to the US of A?

On Pakistan thread, Pakistan and its allies ought to be 100% the point of discussion. Not whether PM Manmohan Singh had a brain fart.

On another thread, PM Manmohan Singh's timidity or stupidity is appropriate.

It is, in a way, the rules about where you wash your linen.

i.e., Indians are ferocious critics of their own country, people, politics, etc. etc. - EXCEPT when facing the rest of the world. That is the very meaning of patriotism or unity in the highest sense. These threads in BRF are proxies for this "facing the rest of the world".

Same rule has to hold for Pakistan, China and the US of A, even if the last is somewhat more friendly than the first two.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 18 Feb 2011 06:00

Mihaylo wrote: Possible scenarios:
RD is bumped off somehow
RD is released
RD stays longer in prison

All three scenarios are bad for Pakistan

RD converts to Sunni Islam (Barelvi school) and becomes Rehman Daoud. Sings naats in favour of the prophet.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 18 Feb 2011 06:01

shiv wrote:I am amazed at how difficult it is to get ostensibly Indian people to admit that US arms to Pakistan are harmful to India. This is something I had not realised. I thought it was a no brainer - but for some people allegiance to America and "understanding America" is more important that any risk to Indians. Amazing learning experience.

It is not just on this topic Doc-saar. I believe this is a reluctance to come out of the 80s mindset. Some cant believe *Indians can demand and it shall be met*

America has to stop arming the pakis with heavy weapons. "China doing the same" is not much of an argument, unless Americans want to be equated with China? In that case dont come to us arguing how America is a superior country and we should treat it with respect. A chinese drone talking about China's superiority is a sad sight here in BRF. But an Indian origin chap behaving like a chinese drone is considered unthinkable and looks utterly ridiculous to a fellow Indian. Wonder why it has to be different for US related topics?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 18 Feb 2011 06:56

Airavat wrote:
Mihaylo wrote: Possible scenarios:
RD is bumped off somehow
RD is released
RD stays longer in prison

All three scenarios are bad for Pakistan
RD converts to Sunni Islam (Barelvi school) and becomes Rehman Daoud. Sings naats in favour of the prophet.

RD is on secret mission to enter Paki prison and terminate blasphemer Aasia Bibi - the lady who Salman Taseer defended. RD showered with rose petals as he leaves Pakistan a herrow.

saip · Post by **saip** » 18 Feb 2011 07:01

Airavat wrote:
Mihaylo wrote: Possible scenarios:
RD is bumped off somehow
RD is released
RD stays longer in prison

All three scenarios are bad for Pakistan
RD converts to Sunni Islam (Barelvi school) and becomes Rehman Daoud. Sings naats in favour of the prophet.

Unless he is Jewish, the thought of losing a part of his anatomy might dissuade him from this!

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 18 Feb 2011 07:10

jrjrao wrote:Shah Mehmood Qureshi has obviously seen too many Bollywood movies, so that he can so easily deliver such fancy filmi "I am a herrow" dialogs, with suitably affected silly facial expressions, all in a properly charming "I am a daaku" accent.

Here he is seen in his post-Kerry press conference in Isloo today.

[youtube]5hiK4BSzjIc&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Clearly, and with the support of the PA and ISI, this scumbag is positioning himself as the next prime minister/CEO a la what Bhutto did a few decades ago. In fact, as the Abdul comments here indicate, Qureshi's herrowdom is now being widely appreciated and recognized:
http://thenews.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=11235

Wah..Wah...kya dialog maara hai, suhan allah..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Feb 2011 07:12

CRamS wrote:those who claim that US-led 3.5 support to TSP is the cause for India unable to punish TSP, .

CRamS - I want to make a point about the above statement. Please bear with me - I will have to use a medical analogy

In the Western (esp USA) scheme of things drugs and medicines are tried out for certain illnesses and in a comparative study it is discovered that Drug A is effective in 80% of patients with some illness - say Exploding Balls Disease (EBD). The same studies show that Drug B is effective in only 45% of patients with EBD. So the drug licensing authority allows Drug A as the treatment of choice and rejects Drug B.

But what was pointed out, by Deepak Chopra among others is that 20% of people do not respond to Drug A. It is an utter waste to ignore drug B because many of those 20% might respond to drug B. There is no guarantee, but in order to be thorough and leave no stone unturned in a quest for the treatment of Exploding Balls Disease both Drug A and B must be available along with anything else that might crop up.

The same analogy applies in the cure of the Pakistan disease which is deadlier than EBD. We must not ignore even the smallest and seemingly most minor factor that is making Pakistan stronger vis a vis India without costs to Pakistan. It is a definite cop out to ignore the smallest useful thing and not be judgemental and say this route is so much better that we can ignore all other routes as insignificant or that "they do not matter". That is snake oil.