Indian Naval Discussion

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Dec 2011 19:05

The Scorpene fitted with Brahmos would be a whole new sub design.It is just too small for the missile.Even if we build extra Scorpenes,what weaponry does it possess that makes it vstly superior to the Paki Agostas? the answer is none.The Pakis too possess sub-launched Exocets and French heavweight torpedoes.Unlike our venerable upgraded Kilos,which have longer ranged Klub missiles-upto 300km,plus land attack and anti0-sub sub-launched versions too,which will make use of the subs long range passive sonars able to detect and launch an attack against an enemy sub while out of range of the enemy's weapon systems,the Scorpenes once detected by LRMPs,etc.,will be outgunned by a Kilo.Neither will it be able to launch an attack against task force with supersonic Brahmos which capability our second line of subs should possess.

Scorpenes fitted with the DRDOs fuel-cell AP system which has yet to se the light of day,which will take severl years to mature from last reports,would be equivalent to using the last three subs as guinea-pigs! The best AIP system today is the German fuel-cell system,the type of which Russia is also developing,with reported improvements-yet to arrive though.It is why we should've ordered 4 more fuel-cell AIP U-214s when HDW was cleared by the courts of any improper deals/acts for the 209 subs.Though the Germn U=boats are also handicapped by ebing too small for Brahmos to be fitted to them,the experience gained with our earlier U-boats would be invaluabel while operating the new subs.Used primarily as HUKs,even though advances in helo ASW is increasing the lethality of the helo today,both these subs are better for the littorals and have limitations when used in faraway blue-water ops.,limited by their range,endurance and lack of long range stand-off weaponry.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 29 Dec 2011 20:21

Well it takes the same several years to put tender , do the selection etc .. so why not just go for our desi solution which takes the same several years

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Dec 2011 20:29

>The best AIP system today is the German fuel-cell system

we really dont know how well its faring for greece and soko. the greek U214s had plenty of issues and the germans have some techs in their own U212 that are not exportable.

my theory is we should bypass AIP altogether as not suitable for large SSKs due to space issues and unproven nature - go with conventional large SSK + SSN combo and bypass AIP. no AIP sub has ever seen combat ops, nuclear subs are proven for decades now , and so is diesel + battery.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 29 Dec 2011 20:38

Philiposky, you don't worry about AIP. The Navy is doing what's expected of them.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 016372.ece
And the best AIP is going to be India's own variant that's very safe and smaller than the other variants.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 30 Dec 2011 06:58

http://en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20111230/170555215.html

I was scare initially thinking that it might be Nerpa

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Dec 2011 07:37

Kartik wrote:
narayana wrote:Times of India print edition quoting defense sources says that IN may go for 6+3 scorpenes(i was suggesting this for long ),the new 3 will come up after building the first 6. and on a different note P-75I may take another decade to roll out.
That is good news indeed if its true..I too have been advocating a purchase of an additional 2-3 Scorpenes just to offset the delays in the P-75I program and the inevitable retirement of the Kilo class subs.

As per the IN's original 30-year submarine building plan, it was the following:

6 x P-75 SSK w/ TOT
6 x P-75I SSK w/ TOT
12 x indigenous SSK
5 x ATV SSBN/SSN

IMO, instead of the 12 x indigenous SSK, the IN should focus on follow-on orders for 3 x P-75 and 3 x P-75I because it would be more economical to do so and less risky. Post 2030, the IN wants to move towards acquiring an all SSN/SSBN submarine fleet. So it makes sense that the indigenous capacity should focus more on building 6 x SSBN/SSN (instead of conventional SSK) using TOT obtained from the P-75/P75I and experience from the ATV.

negi · Post by **negi** » 30 Dec 2011 07:41

Soryu in IN service that too for P75I

; got to be kidding me. We are talking about the Japanese here who don't even export a nut/bolt if it is remotely related to nuclear weapons ; the very fact that P75I will be armed with cruise missiles which in theory will be able to carry nuclear warheads makes this a highly unlikely deal.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 30 Dec 2011 07:47

The 12 Indigenous SSK is a necessity. An increase of three subs of the Scorpenes must not in any way affect this option. Now when we start to build our own SSK is the question that must be asked. It can be at an appropriate time when the Scorpene production is almost finished and the first few of P75I's are being commissioned into service. If we look at the Japanese Soryu class, one is surprised at the build time. It's just four years. So if we can adopt such methods for speedy construction of subs, then it's possible that the remaining 12 indigenous subs can be constructed at a much faster rate. And then the follow on of this 12 with another 12 during which time, we can either decommission Scorpenes and P75I's or sell them off. The SSN must not be linked to SSK construction. It must run parallel at L and T. Let the Arihant class get commissioned into service and then we can design our own SSK's that suits our requirement and build around 8 of them at L&T.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 30 Dec 2011 07:52

negi wrote:Soryu in IN service that too for P75I ; got to be kidding me. We are talking about the Japanese here who don't even export a nut/bolt if it is remotely related to nuclear weapons ; the very fact that P75I will be armed with cruise missiles which in theory will be able to carry nuclear warheads makes this a highly unlikely deal.

I don't think they will be the same Japanese of the 20th century. And Japan can allow Nuclear subs from the U.S into their ports and some even intrude into their territory.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1257673.stm
So do you think Japan govt or anyone in Japan should have any issue with the chance of Soryu being fitted by India with cruise missiles capable of having a nuclear weapon in it?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Dec 2011 07:56

Negi, imo there is no need for India to mount nuclear weapons on a Soryu-mki because it does not have the endurance for 'proper' deterrent patrols (remain totally submerged for 3 months) with or without AIP. neither does it have the size or vl tubes for even the K15. any nirbhay (TT launched) we put there will be conventional weapons meant to take out coastal infra targets of high value. most likely we would just look to put harpoon or klubs in there as the SSK will be a hunter-killer counterforce role mainly to deal with the increasing number of PLAN subs and surface threats.

we could use a mix of 10 TT/ASM and 20 nirbhay in a strike role - if 5 nirbhays each land on 4 coastal power stations and selectively strike the critical areas like boilers, furnaces, feed system or distribution yard the effects will be felt on 1000s of industrial consumers...

we should explain the above to the japanese but give no written assurance.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 30 Dec 2011 07:58

If the P75I is going the MMRCA way, it's better to start building our own indigenous subs utilizing the technology from Arihant and Scorpene. Also to ensure fleet level to stay stable, order three more Scorpenes. Seems a better option because MDL can complete the construction of 6 subs by 2019 and if it's 9 scorpenes by around 2022. So if we start the construction of 12 indigenous subs by around 2013/14, may be the first sub can be in water by around 2018-2020. Let L&T and HSL build it together

vina · Post by **vina** » 30 Dec 2011 09:23

Today's Al-Hundi says that the indigenous carrier , ADS / INS Vikrant was towed out of the building dock and is now in the quay side for outfitting and plumbing, electrical and other work.

Hmm. The hull is largely complete with that I guess. The problems with transmission gear fabrication seem to have been licked and it is getting ready for installation later.

But I have to confess that the navy has been very conservative here. I would have been thrilled if the Navy had gone for an "all electric" drive concept and put in some three podded electric drive propellers cum rudders from either Rolls Royce- Podded Proupulsors or from ABB, the Azipod . No need for any heavy gear-shear and a brackets and other bearings and stuff.. all speed control via TFTA power electronics onree, with multiple redundancies built in.. Would have been very "tight"

I want podded electric drives for the next ship

vic · Post by **vic** » 30 Dec 2011 09:49

srai wrote: As per the IN's original 30-year submarine building plan, it was the following:

6 x P-75 SSK w/ TOT

6 x P-75I SSK w/ TOT

12 x indigenous SSK

5 x ATV SSBN/SSN
IMO, instead of the 12 x indigenous SSK, the IN should focus on follow-on orders for 3 x P-75 and 3 x P-75I because it would be more economical to do so and less risky. Post 2030, the IN wants to move towards acquiring an all SSN/SSBN submarine fleet. So it makes sense that the indigenous capacity should focus more on building 6 x SSBN/SSN (instead of conventional SSK) using TOT obtained from the P-75/P75I and experience from the ATV.

By canvassing for additional Scorpene orders, France is trying to avoid bidding for second line. Scorps are very expensive + they raised the price + they are asking more for AIP + next 3 will cost more due to inflation adjustment. On a negotiated manner we might end up paying around US$ 1.5 Billion per sub.

I think that we should accelerate the competition for second line of 6 Subs and let France compete. If France wins, then we can go for 12 Scorpenes, followed by 12 Indian variant of these Scorpenes and say around 12 ATVs. A bidding process will be incentive to France to lower the price and transfer more technology. After all supplying components to almost 6+6 and for indigenous 12 subs is not a small order.

negi · Post by **negi** » 30 Dec 2011 10:56

Uddu, Japan and US share a symbiotic relationship; their industries are very closely coupled (read Hitachi and Mitsubishi with likes of GE and Westinghouse) ; US consciously allows it's MIC to invest and trade/work with countries like Taiwan, SoKo and Japan for the latter actually toe former's line to the 'T'. India's case is different anyways this is HAF stuff so I shall desist.

GD, IN is seriously looking for alternatives for the Klub series; Brahmos imho is the one in contention hence my doubts about Soryu making the cut. Finally given our tendency to ask for ToT for every thing which we import (irrespective of whether we make it or not) makes it an unlikely proposition due to obvious reasons.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 30 Dec 2011 11:56

$ 1.5 billion for a SSK is rape pure and simple.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 30 Dec 2011 12:02

Will the IN think of our own SSN's a few years down the line once the Arihant finishes trials and does a year or two worth of service? Could we concentrate on SSKs until then and then build SSNs based on the Arihant experience? We could have designs ready by then for the SSN as well as the required reactor.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Dec 2011 12:46

In discussions with a former VAdm. and submariner pals,,the Q which AIP system is the best always came up with the answer ,"a Nuclear reactor"! Nevertheless,AIP systems have come a long way since the Cold War and the German U-boats wiht their fuel-cell systems are doign extremely well in the international market.Built under licence by SoKo,who are to build the same for Indonesia,they have come in for unstinted praise from the US,etc., for the ability of a 45 day submerged patrol. Greece was/is bankrupt and tried a number of excuses to avoid paying Germany,which were swiftly found out.The two other AIP systems,France's MESMA and the Swedish Strling are used less,and have their own advocates,but the fuel-cell route is the most popular, with Russia,apart from our own indigenous effort,adding to the number of nations with fuel-cell R&D going on.

The key force multiplying factor as of today in naval tactical missiles is the Brahmos.It has no equivalent tody.A conventional AIP sub that can carry 8 Brahmos missiles apart from a normal load of torpedoes and other anti-sub missiles,etc.,will be extremely lethal especially if long range targeting is possible through other assets like LRMPs,sats,UAVs,etc.The full potential of the missile's range can then be exploited,.Only a sub with Russian design involvement will be possible to acomodate Brahmos,as there will be clauses in the JV regarding its use and installation aboard non Indo-Russin warships and subs.Therefore,it stands to reason that the second line of subs must be a Indo-Russian venture,based upon a new design or modification of an existing Russian design,and remember,the hypersonic version of Brahmos is also under development.

Let's not fool ourselves.We do not have sub tech within our grasp,we lost it when we closed down the U-boat line, and today possess neither nuclear or conventional sub tech in full,and are behind China,Japan,SoKo and even Pak in bulding conventional AIP subs.The Chinese for instance build their own SSBNs,Kilos under licence,and improved versions of the Kilos,a new class with Stirling AIP systems.The costs of extra Scorpenes is as controversial as those of the M-2000 upgrdes,extremely expensive.It would be far better to choose swiftly a new line of subs with Brahmos and a fuel cell-AIP system and simultaneously accelerate the N-boat schedules.

What has been a major achievement has been the arrival of the ATV-1,whose design could immediately be turned into an SSGN by using the K-15 missile with a conventioanl warhead.
What the IN should do is to study the availability of each type of sub,nuclear and non-nuclear/AIPsubs and their unit/life cycle costs and delivery time.We can then work out the best mix of subs we need and whether we need more Akuas on lease,which I feel would be most useful especially at the lease cost which is less than that of a conventional sub 1/4th it size.After 10 years we would also have the option of acquiring the Akula at depreciated prices too if we needed them.This is the most cost-effective way in which we can keep numbers and capability at a very high level until we are able to build subs of all types indigenouly and quckly.Sub and underwater warfare tech is the most difficult of all naval technology to axquire and requires specialised labs and a manufacturing base for indgenous capability.The two super-powers have a century of sub-building and UW knowledge behnd them.EE have just entered the "pool",so to speak and at the shallow end.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 30 Dec 2011 12:53

Navy floats out first Indigenous Aircraft Carrier

According to a senior naval functionary, the carrier was ‘technically floated out' as the shipyard needed the dry-dock for ‘some other commercial work.' “The carrier has taken on about 14,000 tonnes. She would now undergo interior outfitting, including the laying of pipes before being dry-docked again in the latter half of next year for integration of the propulsion gear-box, generators and the like,”

a delay in the delivery of gear boxes and associated systems had considerably slowed down the construction of the prestigious carrier. Naval officers, however, put on a brave face saying that the phase in which teething trouble was encountered was over. “The gear box is ready and undergoing trials, at last. The underwater package is all lined up but the rest of the equipment has to be identified and tested,”

-Ankit

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Dec 2011 13:03

negi wrote:IN is seriously looking for alternatives for the Klub series

Why is that so , Any problems with Klub ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Dec 2011 17:49

I found this superb pictorial and data analysis of VSTOL and small carriers. folks like Philip saar who sometimes like the concept of helicopter carriers/LPDs with VSTOL JSF as a stand in for a 'real' carrier might want to review the data therein
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=86046

bottomline seem to be real carriers bring a big advantage in fighter wing and speed to the table. the Cavour comfortably trumps the Wasp, Dokdo,Mistral,Hyuga and Juan carlos class in the analysis and far ahead of invincible class.

makes me comfortable we went the right way on ADS1 with a upsized Cavour than a Dokdo or Hyuga. ADS2 should start at 60,000t and shift the game again.

ofcourse I strongly support LPHD, but only for amphib assault, sea control and strong ASW helicopter work.

vic · Post by **vic** » 30 Dec 2011 19:07

tejas wrote:$ 1.5 billion for a SSK is rape pure and simple.

Therefore why not have 12 more nooklear subs then gold plated conventional subs. Basically conventional subs arwe defenders while nuclear propelled ones are hunter killers. Wonder why France, UK, USA are all nuke subs(??)

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 30 Dec 2011 20:05

Russia hands over Nerpa nuclear attack submarine to India.

Russia has handed over the much- awaited nuclear-powered attack submarine Nerpa to India on a 10-year lease, boosting the Indian navy's fire-power.

The Akula-II class Nerpa nuclear submarine had recently finished sea trials.

"The signing ceremony happened yesterday at the Bolshoi Kamen ship building facility in the (Far East) Primorye region where the Nerpa is now based," ITAR-TASS news agency quoted a senior Russian navy official as saying.

The deal for the submarine, which is being transferred on a 10-year lease, was worth USD 920 million.

The report said an Indian crew would sail the Akula II class craft to its home base at the end of January.

"All of the naval tests and performance checks have been completed," the Russian navy official said.

The submarine, capable of remaining underwater for months, will be rechristened as 'INS Chakra' and it would be for the first time in more than two decades that the Indian navy would have a nuclear attack submarine.

When Russia makes the delivery, it will make India only the sixth operator of nuclear submarines in the world.

The submarine deal had figured during Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's visit to Russia earlier this month.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 30 Dec 2011 20:25

Waiting for the promised

arun · Post by **arun** » 30 Dec 2011 20:27

^^^ Rakesh better come through

.

Meanwhile AFP's version of the handover of the Nerpa to India:

Russia hands over Nerpa nuclear sub to India

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 30 Dec 2011 21:11

Rakesh saar ... Will it be delivered to NRI (Non Reliable Indian's)

Yummy Yummy

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Dec 2011 22:57

Seems what was signed yesterday by India representative was the completion of sea trials of Nerpa and not a document to transfer the subs to india , seems Russia is waiting for Delhi to come up with official hand over dates.

http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20111230/530076127.html

"The Indian side is fully satisfied with the amount and quality at sea acceptance trials, the boat is fully prepared to fulfill the tasks at sea. The official handover ceremony of the boat to the customer (India) is not appointed," - said the source.

He stressed that Russia is waiting for official notification of the date of Delhi raise national flag on the boat and Navy of the ceremony the ship. Industry representative said that immediately after the formal signing of the documents will be prepared the boat to move to the shores of India, accompanied by rescue vessels of the Russian Navy. "Training and the transition itself may take several months," - said the source.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Dec 2011 23:21

It seems to be a low priority item in the UPA diary-funny,as things radioactive "makes the Man go"!
Nevertheless,the sub is now waiting to complete its voyage to India and be inducted formally into the IN.The trials and other technical formalities are over and the sub can receive her orders after formal flag raising from now on.This is a huge moment in the IN's history,the second N-sub being leased and unlike the earlier Charlie SSGN which was of second line status,the Akula is the best attack sub that Russia possesses barring the latest Sev. class,equal to late model USN Los Angeles class attack subs.Once pics and data are released,we'll know more about her capabilities. She is also streets ahead of any nuclear sub that the PLAN possesses.A year ago,I gave details of official US comparative sub quieting,estimates of US,Russian and Chinese subs.The PLAN subs quieting was decades behind the US and Russian subs.However,we must not forget that the PLAN is building several classes of conventional AIP subs,building a new class instead of incremental upgrades of a type,raising the quality bar more frequently.

Now a Q for Adm.Koshy.When is the mithai arriving? Along with the Akula or what? While we wait we also salivate!

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 31 Dec 2011 04:17

That is a great New Year Gift for the IN.
Wishing a very happy and prosperous New Year 2012 to BRF members

(didn't know where to post it

)

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 31 Dec 2011 06:02

Don't expect her too soon...

sum · Post by **sum** » 31 Dec 2011 09:51

SNaik wrote:Don't expect her too soon...

Dammit

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 31 Dec 2011 10:04

Singha,absolutely true.Studies have shown that a carrier should be around 60-65,000t to achieve max. efficiency in aircraft/helos carried, sortie rates,etc. However,please study US research into their amphibious warships,which all have flat tops and their unique ability to change role depending upon the mission,from amphib ops and support,disaster relief,ASW and even strike.These warships,which have the "swing" capability cannot replace the larger true carriers but complement them.For less extensive missions they could be used instead of the larger carriers.However,unless the carriers come with modern STOVL aircraft,the air defence/strike role will be unavailable.The USMC plans to buy a large qty of JSFs for their large fleet of amphib flat tops which are in the region of 45-50,000t.

The IN will be best served by buying/building the Juan Carlos multi-role amphib vessel,which Oz is also acquiring in large number.A couple of years ago I gave a comparison between the Juan Carlos and the Mistral.If I remember correctly,the larger Spanish warship has an extra deck,extremely useful for carrying an assortment of vehicles,aircraft/helos,etc.I would not want the IN to buy any of the Far Eastern "Pocket carriers",like the Dodko or Osumi,etc,who have been built/designed to circumvent the designation of carriers which the two nations really want to build.These warships are mere "poseurs" and their role is best suited to amphib support and ASW to meet the PLAN's sub challenge.The next design from these two countries will surely see them build much larger "aircraft carrying destroyers" or whatever they're called, using the PLAN's 65,000t Varyag as an excuse for doing so! It is going to be most interesting and welcoming to see Japan again building and operating large carriers.Banzai!

IAC-2 must be a larger 65,000+ carrier as well as future carriers.The use of N-power for these carriers should be seriously examined.In time to come,three 65,000t+ carriers ,plus IAC-1 and the Gorky which can be used more for integral air defence of the fleet and ASW ops,will serve us well.The latter two for IOR ops mainly while the larger carriers can sail in any ocean showing the flag in full blue water style.

member_20163 · Post by **member_20163** » 31 Dec 2011 12:27

In the meanwhile, we celebrate arrival of Natascha with toast of Vodka !!!!!!

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 31 Dec 2011 14:37

vina wrote:I would have been thrilled if the Navy had gone for an "all electric" drive concept...

Not quite what you want, but this one has an uber sophisticated propulsion system
http://indiancoastguard.nic.in/Indianco ... rahari.htm
http://www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/De ... 13-115.pdf
http://www.rolls-royce.com/marine/produ ... ssels/cpv/

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Dec 2011 17:53

uddu wrote:Waiting for the promised

arun wrote:^^^ Rakesh better come through .

Meanwhile AFP's version of the handover of the Nerpa to India:

Russia hands over Nerpa nuclear sub to India

RKumar wrote:Rakesh saar ... Will it be delivered to NRI (Non Reliable Indian's)

Yummy Yummy

There shall be no mithai unless Super Kat (aka Katrina) arrives in India with IAF roundels.

But all logistical & financial requirements have been met to deliver mithai to all interested people.

debm · Post by **debm** » 31 Dec 2011 18:37

Weren't we supposed to receive 2 Akulas under the lease. Was it announced, when the other one is intended to arrive.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 31 Dec 2011 19:25

sum wrote:
SNaik wrote:Don't expect her too soon...
Dammit

Relax, it's New Year anyway

Sailing to Vizag expected after 20th January. There are still problems to be solved easier at the yard than in India, therefore I'm quite sceptic about the date.
Hope they don't intend any welding on her

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Dec 2011 19:33

SNaik , Any news on how the Nerpa fared in her final trials ? What is the weapons package she is carrying ?

Also is it normal to accompany a submarine by a rescue vessel on her voyage to India ?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 31 Dec 2011 21:30

SNaik

is it worth all the hoopla or is it going to be another white elephant??

This accompanied by rescue vessel and the accidents happening on other Russian subs is worrying

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Jan 2012 09:39

I think that we're going to get a lot of disinfo when she arrives,esp. with regard to weaponry.One big Q though,our future N-subs are supposed to be based at the new base/facility coming up at Rambili.There has been little info reg. the status of the work,which is essential if we want to operate our N-subs with the req. logistical backup that N-reactors,N-warheads,etc, demand.Meeting this would also require huge civilian infrastructure for the manpower required to service the base and operate the subs,a veritable township will have to be created.For the moment she will most probably be based ta Vizag until the new base is operational.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 01 Jan 2012 20:07

Austin wrote:SNaik , Any news on how the Nerpa fared in her final trials ? What is the weapons package she is carrying ?

Also is it normal to accompany a submarine by a rescue vessel on her voyage to India ?

She did well during the trials, meaning there were no significant breakdowns. Nevertheless, her shipborn system electronic management is still glitchy. Rescue vessels or tugs are usually escorting RuNavy task forces, in this case I guess that it's a bit of an overkill, just to be sure that she will reach India without further problems. The preparation and actual voyage may take several months, according to Russian officials.
As to her weapon load - anything that fits in 533mm. Russian 971 project boats are not fitted for Klub missiles and I do not expect them on Nerpa.