devesh wrote:it's all about "identity". the Afghani tribes need to identify themselves as the victims of Islamic terror. the present process helps that. we should recognize this. the more Pakhana turns its fervor on Afghan, the more the Afghanis feel the heat. this is a good thing. in the long term, future generations of Afghanis will grow up with stories of how their Greenest brothers wanted to please Allah by killing them. I am waiting for one full generation of young boys and girls to grow up with these stories and the real life images of what happens when Allah wants to be pleased.
No such thing happens! Have the converted faithful in India turned against the Ghazis who came down at them from the Khyber? No! They have become their most ardent supporters. Green accepts the Greener if it shows it is Stronger.
Secondly it can turn exactly into the way things were in the 1990s. Taliban take over. The terror of the bombs end with that. The terror of the beatings with long sticks start with that. The only reason the Afghans did not accept the Taliban fully in the 90s was because the war for domination was not over. Ahmed Shah Masood was still putting up a fight against the Taliban. Had Masood crumbled, Afghans may have accepted Taliban domination completely and started identifying themselves with the Taliban within a generation. Many in the South already do.
So in that case it would be too much to expect that Afghans would be growing up with seething anger at the Pakistanis. The next generation may be completely Talibanized, including the Tajiks. Pakistanis would be controlling Afghanistan to a large extent through the Taliban as Pakistan would control Taliban's access to the outside world, and channeling the funding from the Saudis, just as they did in the 90s.
the Afghans, both Northerners and Pushtun would see that their rulers are the Pushtun Taliban.
So the assumption that Pakistan would keep up a campaign of just bombing Afghans may not come true.
devesh wrote:any future post-Islamic Afghanistan will be influenced by the rise of post-Islamic movements in Iran and by the memories inflicted on them by their Greenest neighbors to the East. until then, we should do our utmost to "enable" the flow of Pakhana terror onto the Afghanis. this will benefit the entire world in the long term. it will help humanity. it will help Bharat.
Why would it help - humanity, world, Bharat? Pakhana Terror on Afghans is an intermediate mode of exerting control over a NATO controlled Afghanistan. Once NATO leaves, Taliban move in.
On what basis is a post-Islamic Afghanistan coming up? Where does one see anything post-Islamic in the Sunni world?
The memories from Greenest neighbors of say terror are not persistent. First they will be against Taliban, not outsiders like Pakistan, and secondly the Taliban would sooner or later be embraced wiping out the bad memories.
devesh wrote:it is not in our interests to let the Pakjabis become subservient to Afghans. Pakjabis already have an insecurity complex which fuels their hatred. this has lead them into a vicious loop of "I am greener than the greenest" mentality. if Afghanis dominate Pakjabis, it won't humiliate Pakjabis into rejecting Islam. on the contrary, it will fuel them even more to be like the "martial races". this delusional process has been gripping Pakjab for a long time now, induced by memories of plunder and rape at the hands of invaders coming through the Khyber Pass.
True, it is not in our interest to let Pakjabis crumble in front of the Afghans. The Afghanis should not dominate Pakjab.
However the first priority is not the fall of Pakjab, but rather the break up of Pakistan. As long as Pakistan exists, no Pakjabi would ever listen to Indians. Only after Pakistan breaks up, would the Pakjabis start looking towards India for help.
It may be of interest that during all those military campaigns by the Pakistani military against Pushtun or natural disasters in Pushtun lands, never has Pakjab allowed Pushtun refugees to stream in into Pakjab. They have always been diverted towards other Pushtun areas or towards Karachi. The Pakjabis too are not that fond of having Afghans lording over them. They are more than happy to takeover Afghan Ghazis as their role models, but they want to rule themselves. So Pakjab would not be accepting Afghans/Pushtun overlordship that readily.
Sure the Pakjabis have insecurity viz-a-viz the Pushtuns, but the Green Project of Islamization of both the Pushtun and of Self has been to ensure that Pushtun do not demand secession and secondly so that they accept Pakjabi domination in the name of Islam. It is not for the sake of becoming green in itself as the aim. Becoming green is only a means for keeping Pakjabi domination intact.
So just because we encourage the (Afghan) Pushtun to reclaim the Pushtun areas of Pakistan, does not translate into those Pushtuns being handed over the keys of Pakjab itself. All it means is that the PA project of Domination through Greenery has failed, and Pakjab would have to think of some other strategy to retain its strength as well as survival.
devesh wrote:I say let the Pakjabi elite feel all warm and cozy by "beating" the "martial races" and thereby proving that they are the greatest of the greenest and the most "martial". meanwhile, their society keeps going further down the drain of economic bankruptcy. at some point, their crimes on Afghans will be paid back in kind, and their own society will go ideologically bankrupt after having proved their "greatness". at that point, the only hurdle will be the Islamist based z
theologian networks.
The Pakistanis are doing the crimes on the Afghans by proxy - through the Taliban. Secondly as said earlier, those crimes would be of a different nature than random terrorist bombings.
Any feeling given to Pakjabis of their "martial prowess" is a straight road to hell for India. Pakjabis have devised strategies to keep the Afghans off their backs but they have remained India-centric the whole time. If we give any lift to Pakjabis their first intuition is to come and dominate the Hindus in India.
They have to weakened to an extent that they forget that they can dominate the Hindus, but rather start thinking that they need Indian help in order to survive.
devesh wrote:what is India's role in all this? we keep supporting the Afghanis just enough to keep them alive and kicking no matter how much damage the Pakjabis inflict on them. we let the Islamist networks in Afghan deal with the psychological consequences of Pakjabi rape and looting. let them have a merry time defending the deeds of Allah's greatest and greenest soldiers....
The Pakjabi loot and rape of Afghanistan as depicted in the photo circulating here is a short-term myth, with life-expectancy as long as NATO's stay in Afghanistan. The loot and rape would be done by the Taliban later on, and Pakjabis would only be dealing with the leadership of Taliban. So what psychological consequences are we speaking about? The narrative would change.
Sure the Tajiks would still be unhappy about the Pakjabi help to the Pushtun Taliban who would be ruling over them, but then that anger would be secondary. Are we more riled about Paki terror or by the American arms that land in their laps?
devesh wrote:the only way to sufficiently weaken the Afghan Islamism is by having the Pakjabies batter them, while Pakjabi society itself is continuously being eaten away by the financial and unsustainable practices like 10 children/woman.
Pakjabis are the reason for Afghani Islamism! There is no competition here! Pakjabis are the father to modern Afghan Islamism in the form of Taliban. The Afghans had already mellowed as the Brits were ruling the India. After the third Anglo-Afghan war in 1919, King Amanullah Khan already started the process of giving a modern outlook to Afghanistan.
Of course there were Afghan Islamists long after that, but their strength was highly diminished until Pakistan again started using Pushtun tribals to its own ends like in Kashmir and then radicalizing the Afghans who came over as refugees.
Afghan Islamism stopped being a factor for India in 1809 when Maharaja Ranjit Singh's forces captured Khyber, i.e. since 200 years, Afghanistan is no threat to India proper.
devesh wrote:crushing Pak Islamism will be done only when India finally decides to ruthlessly suppress the eliminate the Islamist networks. but before that happens, India needs to undergo a transformation, and this interim period is best suited to weaken Islam's torch bearers in Afghanistan.
That is true. Pakistan Islamism can only be finished by India. But the way to go about it is hardly going at it head to head when it is at its strongest. Before we can wash the heads of the Pakjabis, they would have to be beaten up and softened in several ways - break up of Pakistan, pressure from the Pushtuns, complete economic dependence on India, weak government, Indian control over all the various militant factions in Pakjab, denuclearization, etc.
Certainly bolstering the martial pride of Pakjabis and their successes is not the way to defeating Pakjabi Islamism.
