Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

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Sanku
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Sanku »

Karan M wrote:The point is that Ajai Shukla could be honestly mistaken. He was similarly dismissive of the Arjun and actually changed his view over the course of time. There are some details he strings together which do not add up in this one article.
.
Its not about being mistaken, there are multiple issues

1) Sudden U-turn without any basis, any and all extenuating circumstances of his reporting in case of Gen VKS, has been common knowledge for some time. Why did he suddenly turn

2) He has been coming up with substantial BS on a number of issues, peddling Boeing products galore, (F 35 etc) asking for MMRCA contract cancellation **suddenly after** the yanksbrits were kicked out.

3) There have been many other sensational hatchet jobs recorded here on BRF by him.

4) His stand on Arjun is mischievous, he is not satisfied with speaking for Arjun, but goes and makes wild and unsubstantiated charges all around.

I know he is liked on BRF for his support to Arjun, a "new found love" of his life, but even a broken clock can be right twice a day, and seriously I wonder if he has a ulterior reasons for his ostensible support of Arjun (it seems more like an excuse to be anti Russia than pro-Arjun)
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by d_berwal »

Karan M wrote:
He makes the huge assumption that people who supported VKS are all belonging to one group - Rajputs
SHUKJI is very biased and only conclusions i can make out:

- He trying to portray a cast angle that only Rajputs are supporting him. Is he correct ?
Answer: NO, because it shows VKS true secular nature, Being a Jat he has support from all over like Rajputs etc.

What is the motive behind shuklaji's cast angle to VKS story? this bothers me.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by ASPuar »

d_berwal wrote:
Karan M wrote:
He makes the huge assumption that people who supported VKS are all belonging to one group - Rajputs
SHUKJI is very biased and only conclusions i can make out:

- He trying to portray a cast angle that only Rajputs are supporting him. Is he correct ?
Answer: NO, because it shows VKS true secular nature, Being a Jat he has support from all over like Rajputs etc.

What is the motive behind shuklaji's cast angle to VKS story? this bothers me.

Correct that VKS had support from veterans all around. Incorrect that he is a Jat, btw. He is a Rajput, of Tomar origin, from a village of Haryanvi Rajputs.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by d_berwal »

ASPuar wrote: Correct that VKS had support from veterans all around. Incorrect that he is a Jat, btw. He is a Rajput, of Tomar origin, from a village of Haryanvi Rajputs.
Well i know he is from Bapora, Bhiwani and I might be wrong that he is a JAT. IF you are correct then i accept error from my side.

Tomar is the biggest Khalp of Jat's by the way.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Sanku »

Karan M wrote:The point is that Ajai Shukla could be honestly mistaken.
Shall we look at the article and see if there are honest mistakes here?
But once the Supreme Court judges rubbished his case in court,
Is this a honest statement? That the judges "rubbished" his case ? Asking some one to "blow with the wind" is rubbishing the case? Is honest?
when the ambitious Lieutenant General B M Kaul exploited his proximity to Jawaharlal Nehru to split the officer community into pro-Kaul and anti-Kaul factions, did India witness the sorry spectacle of an army chief publicly denigrating his top commanders.
What sheer nonsense. B M Kaul did not split the officer community into two. Other than Nehru's chamcha, a handful of them in the army no one was with Kaul. The officer community was all anti-Kaul. Simply.

In this case, barring the handful of politically connected Generals working with Politically connected arms dealers and politicians in case of Adarsh. the entire Army is with Gen VK Singh.

If anything, Gen VK Singh is the mirror image of Gen Kaul --> If a simili with Gen Kaul and being politically connected has to be drawn, it will be Gen JJ Singh, and other officers who worked with politicians in case of Adarsh scam.

Why is Shukla silent about it.

hen has Gen VK Singh publicly denigrated his top commanders? The case he refers to of Chief speaking to media about show cause notice, was in response to a question asked to him after the commander in question had leaked the papers.

Does he have ANY PROOF that those who went to court did so on Gen VK Singh's asking?

Why is he silent of the Sukhna scam and the shengians to change Gen Singhs date of birth at the last moment?

Why is he silent on inaction of Antony and MoD against tatra and against Tejinder Singh?

Why is silent on the staunch position taken by the Chief on Adarsh issue which forced many top congress politicians into open

=================================

Through innuendo and other such means typical of low lifes of his type, Shulka tries to make connections which do not exist.

This man is thoroughly detestable and not worth trusting for a whit.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Amitabh »

d_berwal wrote:
Karan M wrote:
He makes the huge assumption that people who supported VKS are all belonging to one group - Rajputs
SHUKJI is very biased and only conclusions i can make out:

- He trying to portray a cast angle that only Rajputs are supporting him. Is he correct ?
Answer: NO, because it shows VKS true secular nature, Being a Jat he has support from all over like Rajputs etc.

What is the motive behind shuklaji's cast angle to VKS story? this bothers me.
Perhaps you need to familiarise yourself with the English language. At no point has Shukla assumed that all VKS supporters were Rajputs -- he has claimed, correctly, that VKS played the caste card, one of which was to mobilise Rajput support. I have heard this from many credible sources personally and it is also obvious to anyone who plays attention.

I am in complete agreement with Shukla's piece and the fact that he supported VKS on the age issue originally (and continues to do so) only adds to his credibility. There is no about turn by Shukla at all on this issue. It may come as a surprise to some but you do not have to be in complete agreement or complete disagreement with every issue -- most reasonable people have nuanced positions.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Jaybhatt »

Hardly surprising. Shows how fickle the hacks are. And that is putting it very diplomatically.
This is not being fickle. Why do we assume that stated positions cannot be changed in due course of time especially in face of new events? In the case of the Arjun tank, everyone jovially cites Ajai's u-turn because it was in line with the popular view here (to which I am a subscriber as well).

Ajai has been a big supporter of Gen VKS on dozens of NDTV shows, even to the point of strongly disagreeing with some of the ex-Generals who sided with the Govt during the age controversy. Just recently, he came out in support of Gen VKS in the Tatra scam controversy. In this article, he has stated his reasons for his disapproval of the good General's recent actions and Jaybhatt, you yourself agreed with one of these reasons a few posts up (R K Anand issue). Remember, Shukla has donned the military olives before, so his u-turn is not out of a lack of understanding of the situation.

We must resist the temptation of branding every defence journalist either a DDM or a 'sell-out hack'.
Well, I think your statement above has been very effectively demolished by other comrades like Pranav, Merlin, Karan M, d_berwal, ASPuar abd Sanku.

You are entitled to your views, of course. However, your defence of Shukla is disingenuous and illogical, and everyone has pointed it out. Try and introspect, please.

And do not attempt to blow out of proportion what I had written earlier in this thread. I had suggested that the good General should not have rubbed shoulders with the likes of R.K. Anand et al. My exact words : "Yes, Nikhil. I agree with you on this issue. The good General should not have shared the same platform with the likes of Anand et al. This is the only action of Gen. VKS that I don't concur with. His Staff officers should have done some research on the bona fides of the organisers (or lack of them). Big blunder by the soldiers' soldier, if one looks at just this incident. But a small blip in the man's overall record."

Please read my last line. My admiration and respect for the Chief remains unabated. However, young Shukla has done a complete U-turn and has written outright garbage on the recent actions of General VKS. Shukla's bile is so obvious that I am surprised you want to take up cudgels for him.

In any case, the man is far from kosher. His ludicrous posture in the MMRCA contract is known to most BR members. He went out on a limb for the Americans to such an extent that even his fellow journos felt embarrassed.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Sanku »

Amitabh wrote: Perhaps you need to familiarise yourself with the English language. At no point has Shukla assumed that all VKS supporters were Rajputs -- he has claimed, correctly, that VKS played the caste card, one of which was to mobilise Rajput support.
This playing with English language is a old hat on BRF. Made famous by SCM himself.

In reality the article is called low-life innuendo game played by low lives. Does Shukla have any proof that because a "section of Army who were also Rajputs" took a stand, it is a caste card played?

Who decided that support by a section of Veternas who also happen to be a section of Rajputs becomes a caste card? I accuse Shukla and all those who support his filth of being castist and mischievously ascribing CASTE identities to veterans?

There was/is also widespread support to Gen VK Singh by other veterans.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... servicemen

Army Chief trying to clean the organisation: veterans
"Whatever the Chief has done, he has done to the best of his ability for the organisation. He has no personal interest and we are all with him for whatever action he has taken," said Brigadier (retd) R K Singh Gulia, president of Indian Ex-Services League, one of the biggest organisations of former military personnel.
What diatribe would now the low life's ascribe to these Veterans?

What names would the corrupt call these ex-armymen because they have dared to stand up against endemic corruption?

I have heard this from many credible sources personally and it is also obvious to anyone who plays attention.
What is obvious to anyone who pays attention is that the attempt of a section of political forces to make money off the Army has been thwarted and now all those riding the gray train and lashing out in frustration.

Any means necessary will be used to the above end.
I am in complete agreement with Shukla's piece
Speaks volumes about you.
complete agreement or complete disagreement with every issue -- most reasonable people have nuanced positions.
Its a common tactic to pass of misinformation under the guise of "point of view" or "nuanced position"

Being agreement with something which is shown to be miserably incorrect is not nuanced. It is called creating smoke screens, deception and subterfuge.

Beginning of wisdom is calling things by their right name.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Manish_Sharma »

I made following comment on his site, let's see if he has the guts to publish it:
How low you have fallen Shukla! General Shri V.K. Singh has been trying his best to clean up corruption in army to his best ability. Be it Tatra, Sukna or Adarsh scams. CONparty tried to look for a single scam in his whole carrier and all they could come up with was a mistake by school teacher in the form. No corruption no black spot in his distinguished carrier.

"Blow with the Wind" is going to be translated by you as rubbishing his case by SC? Is this the level of your understanding?

If you are so upset with the charges of Bikram Singh being relative of PM MMS' wife or close to JJSingh, Montek etc. why are you accusing Rajputs only backing Gen. Shri V.K. Singh? Amazing is Admiral Shri Vishnu Bhagwat a Rajput.

Let's see if you at least have the decency to allow this comment being published on your site.

I'm a punjabi Brahmin by the way, not Rajput.

Manish Sharma
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by peter »

Karan M wrote:The point is that Ajai Shukla could be honestly mistaken.
No. He is blowing with the wind. Such people have no backbone and the preponderance of such species in all walks of life is the reason why India is in such a dismal state today.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by merlin »

peter wrote:
Karan M wrote:The point is that Ajai Shukla could be honestly mistaken.
No. He is blowing with the wind. Such people have no backbone and the preponderance of such species in all walks of life is the reason why India is in such a dismal state today.
Arre usko choodho baba. When even the Supreme Court blows with the wind what can mere lesser mortals do?
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by peter »

peter wrote:
Karan M wrote:The point is that Ajai Shukla could be honestly mistaken.
No. He is blowing with the wind. Such people have no backbone and the preponderance of such species in all walks of life is the reason why India is in such a dismal state today.
merlin wrote: Arre usko choodho baba. When even the Supreme Court blows with the wind what can mere lesser mortals do?
Try and not blow with the wind?
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by ASPuar »

Shukla has jumped the Shark. The chap disgusts me.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Amitabh »

Manish_Sharma wrote:I made following comment on his site, let's see if he has the guts to publish it:
How low you have fallen Shukla! General Shri V.K. Singh has been trying his best to clean up corruption in army to his best ability. Be it Tatra, Sukna or Adarsh scams. CONparty tried to look for a single scam in his whole carrier and all they could come up with was a mistake by school teacher in the form. No corruption no black spot in his distinguished carrier.

"Blow with the Wind" is going to be translated by you as rubbishing his case by SC? Is this the level of your understanding?

If you are so upset with the charges of Bikram Singh being relative of PM MMS' wife or close to JJSingh, Montek etc. why are you accusing Rajputs only backing Gen. Shri V.K. Singh? Amazing is Admiral Shri Vishnu Bhagwat a Rajput.

Let's see if you at least have the decency to allow this comment being published on your site.

I'm a punjabi Brahmin by the way, not Rajput.

Manish Sharma
Apparently he did have "the guts" to publish it. And congratulations on being a Punjabi Brahmin. Now how about showing the guts to post Shukla's reply to you?
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Singha »

you emerged from hibernation and came all the way here to post about shukla's response to manish? :shock:
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by chaanakya »

Manish_Sharma wrote:I made following comment on his site, let's see if he has the guts to publish it:
How low you have fallen Shukla! General Shri V.K. Singh has been trying his best to clean up corruption in army to his best ability. Be it Tatra, Sukna or Adarsh scams. CONparty tried to look for a single scam in his whole carrier and all they could come up with was a mistake by school teacher in the form. No corruption no black spot in his distinguished carrier.

"Blow with the Wind" is going to be translated by you as rubbishing his case by SC? Is this the level of your understanding?

If you are so upset with the charges of Bikram Singh being relative of PM MMS' wife or close to JJSingh, Montek etc. why are you accusing Rajputs only backing Gen. Shri V.K. Singh? Amazing is Admiral Shri Vishnu Bhagwat a Rajput.

Let's see if you at least have the decency to allow this comment being published on your site.

I'm a punjabi Brahmin by the way, not Rajput.

Manish Sharma
Amitabh wrote: Apparently he did have "the guts" to publish it. And congratulations on being a Punjabi Brahmin. Now how about showing the guts to post Shukla's reply to you?

Well here it is
Broadsword said...

@ Tejas

As far as the Supreme Court rubbishing VK Singh's petition is concerned, you've apparently heard only the story put out by VK Singh's spinmeisters.

I was in court throughout the hearing, talked extensively to his lawyers, written in detail about the case, and I have seen and heard every word that was said in court. To cut a long story short, the Suoreme Court told the general's lawyers that he had conveyed his acceptance of the 1950 birth date on two separate occasions... and that it ill behooved him to now walk away from that acceptance. He had already achieved everything that an army man could aspire for and he should not now put forward untenable arguments for another ten months in the chair.

Then they asked him... do you want to withdraw your case, or would you like us to pass a judgment. At that point, correctly perceiving that the judgment would be entirely against him... VK's lawyers decided to withdraw and to declare victory to the cameras outside the court. I saw every moment of this from the ring side.

And, just for your information, I was cheering him at that stage, hoping that he would win. That was because I believed (and still do) that he was born in May 1951, not 1950.

But that does not excuse what VK Singh did after losing in court. He should have resigned that very evening. He would have had the whole country in the palm of his hand.

But he's got terrible advisors and awful personal judgment. Thank God he did not take this country to war. Given his penchant for fighting losing battles, it would have been a disaster.

29 May 2012 15:46
His reply is pathetic , to say the least. Entire proceedings has been followed keenly on brf. Both sides have been argued. It was clear that SC did not go into the merit of the case as it did not WANT to go into the merits. All the points which are in the reply of Broadsword have been shredded thoroughly to have any semblence of crediboility. It has also cast shadow on SC while the Blowing with the Wind Comment of the Justice was least expected of the person occupying august office.
The actual comment
“Wise men are those who move with the wind. We take pride in having [an] officer like you. Credit must go to you.”
and the parting riposte
“If all of us are going to blow with the wind then we will all become muggers, we will all become corrupt,”
I dont find anything wrong with that. The General has spoken the mind of the Nation.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Karan M »

Amitabh, Ajai's response neatly sidesteps almost all of Tejas/Manish's response to Ajai's caste baiting! His article predominantly dwells on the caste/communal angle. As matter of fact, Manish citing his community was relevant in order to point out to Ajai that its not just Rajputs who are supporting VKS. As such, he did not answer Manishs point at all.


Like it or not, Ajai's article has several loop holes and flimsy claims including the reference to the rohtak grenadiers being vk supporters etc.

http://generalvksingh.info/home/tenure- ... w-the-belt
"General Singh informed Antony that he had been forced to go to the court to prevent a possible adverse legal fallout of another petition filed before by the Rohtak chapter of the so-called Grenadiers Association and with which he had no truck in any way. It is another matter that a court insider leaked the news of General Singh going to court to TV news channels much before his letter reached Antony on Monday.

General Singh was advised by his lawyers that his legal options on the date of birth issue would be closed if the Supreme Court took up the Grenadiers Association’s petition as it was rather insidious and factually inaccurate in many places. For instance, the association’s petition stated that Lt. General Bikramjeet Singh, presently Eastern Army Commander and in line for the Army Chief’s job, was related to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh."
This actually points out the issue that those claiming to be VKS supporters may be anything but and were actually undermining his case.

Furthermore, you claim that others don't know english (while obviously you do) and state that Ajai is not saying all VKS supporters are Rajputs. Thats quite clearly missing the point. Ajai makes the deliberate claim:
filed a writ petition in the Supreme Court that rested on the communal narrative of a Sikh conspiracy to get General Bikram Singh into office. While the petitioners cannot be conclusively linked with V K Singh, the evidence suggests that they were at least manipulated by him.
He's pretty much saying VKS supporters are communal & are being manipulated by VKS. What rubbish.

While I appreciate Ajai Shukla's work, on this one occasion, he has ended up with some severe egg on his face.

I also see, in the comments this rather direct, but pretty forthright response:
Perhaps you should get the raw end of the stick after 40 yrs of service, have your entire career made to look like a waste, and then have smart asses like you pass judgements. Yes, you served in the past, chose to lunch in punch out. So keep it down. The chief is not perfect but he has done a yeoman service by bringing the absolute bullshit out in the open. You would be a fool of the highest order to think that the filth that permeates our government instituions would spare the army. You would be a bigger fool to think that such issues can be dealt with on the quite. Well it was in the past..see where it has bought us to now. Dont bother to respond ..keep your bullshit to yourself.
Rings true to anyone who has watched the sordid affairs over the years. Would rather have a forthright chief than one more yes man.

And this headline in Rediff: "Will Gen V K Singh's tainted tenure haunt his successor?"....is just attention seeking crap. At least "Thank God its over.." was somewhat sensible.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Sanku »

Ah, Shukla comes up with a new argument, "believe me I was in the court" -- it might come as a shock to him, but so where a number of people, each of them has a consistent record of what happened, which says quite a few thing, not really what he has to say --

However according to them
As far as the Supreme Court rubbishing VK Singh's petition is concerned, you've apparently heard only the story put out by VK Singh's spinmeisters.
They are all spinning for Gen VK Singh but Shukla.

So according to Shukla Gen VK Singh who has been hounded by Shukla and other hacks of his ilk, thoroughly is able to spin the news, except for the fair Shukla

Why?

Because he says so that is why.

Entire media, including those mocking Gen VK Singh using the same court transcripts are lying but Shukla knows.

Wonderful.

Further note Shukla also says

he had conveyed his acceptance of the 1950 birth date on two separate occasions... and that it ill behooved him to now walk away from that acceptance.
Since when did SC have to sit in judgement on "how should XYZ behoove?"

SC had a simple job, to decide on the correct method of determination of the date of Birth.

If they were gutless to take a decision, at least Shukla should not make being gutlessness a virtue.

Or perhaps for Shukla it is.

--------------------------------------------

Will that spineless creature blowing in the wind at least take a stand on -- What should be the right age of birth of Gen VK Singh?

After all a age of birth is not a "point of view" (a favorite shield of the lying turds of the world) -- it is something, or it is not something.

But hey given enough material, perhaps even date of birth can be a relative position.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Karan M »

Sanku wrote:1) Sudden U-turn without any basis, any and all extenuating circumstances of his reporting in case of Gen VKS, has been common knowledge for some time. Why did he suddenly turn
I think the mistake made here is to assume that because Ajai writes on a couple of points which end up pro VKS, that means he is pro VKS...don't think so...even in prior TV interviews he didn't really come across as very pro VKS...just somebody scoring his own points (for example on BEML Tatra) in the wider debate..
2) He has been coming up with substantial BS on a number of issues, peddling Boeing products galore, (F 35 etc) asking for MMRCA contract cancellation **suddenly after** the yanksbrits were kicked out.
That's his prerogative...as matter of fact many folks with fairly decent records wanted the F-35. Its a mindset issue. Many folks look at the F-35 topic purely from a tech angle and discount the strings attached, as "new India" won't suffer them. Others (including I) differ..from the tech angle, its hard to argue - the F35 indeed blows the EF and Rafale out of the water, so to speak in many areas..if it ever gets fielded at a decent cost that is. The mindset which looks at the US as the leader in miltech (and that they are in many areas) has the automatic assumption that all issues with the F-35 will be worked out and it will be A-ok. But it ignores the political issues, the lack of tech transfer. Pragmatism though demands that India go with what it can field without strings and which helps Indian aerospace and that is the Rafale.
4) His stand on Arjun is mischievous, he is not satisfied with speaking for Arjun, but goes and makes wild and unsubstantiated charges all around.
Sorry, dont agree. Many folks I have spoken to and most records back up Ajai to the T on the Arjun and related topics.
I know he is liked on BRF for his support to Arjun, a "new found love" of his life, but even a broken clock can be right twice a day, and seriously I wonder if he has a ulterior reasons for his ostensible support of Arjun (it seems more like an excuse to be anti Russia than pro-Arjun)
There is nothing anti-Russia in being pro-Arjun.

A lot of the anti Russia feeling comes from the manner in which Russians have acted towards India in several deals - patronizing and full of BS. They are not alone in that. Its just that those who have dealt with Russia the longest are now the most fed up.

My perception is that India's new found "amour" for all things western will slowly cool down once we realize even they can be price gougers and unreliable suppliers from deal to deal. That feeling is slowly coming with regards to the "can do no wrong" Israelis as well as several projects where they were supposed to be the knights in shining armour, have not exactly taken off. In others, where they were supposed to be very cost effective, the reality is, they are not cheap either.

Ultimately, we have to rely on ourselves, instead of running abroad for the fanciest and best. That logic is yet to percolate amongst many senior armed forces personnel. Unfortunately, they took India's growing economic strength to be equivalent to one giant candy store now available for purchase. Others have woken up and are now looking inwards and hence the renewed support for local projects. Anyways, we are going OT.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Surya »

Singha said
you emerged from hibernation and came all the way here to post about shukla's response to manish?

very interesting and perceptive comment :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Sanku »

Karan M wrote:. Anyways, we are going OT.
Thanks for the response, and yes we are going OT. So I will stop too, with a small request/thought/suggestion: If you look at each of Shukla's statements in isolation and consider their merits, like you have above, you may be able to justify them independently.

However consider them linked, Of a person like Shukla who simultaneously has this basket of views and the picture begins to change a bit.

I have to say that his views do not appear merely accidental or ignorant -- there is a pattern and I think it is not all simple.

(There are other pieces in puzzle too, for example look at who advertises heavily in BS, and whose banner is most prominent above Shukla's articles, the record of that company in some recent tenders and purchases including by Indian aviation majors etc etc)

You might be giving him way too much rope.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by nelson »

nelson wrote:As far as the unanimous complaint goes, there will be many in the days to come. There will be persons who will switch camps and there will be those moved in by the new incumbent. Some may even put their signatures and names. Business as usual.
nelson wrote:Yes, his u-turn is out of realpolitik compulsions that he has to face from 31 May 2012 AN.
We are in for some interesting days ahead, VKS for some tough days and the Army for some very sad days.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by nelson »

Amidst all the drama some meaningful after effects.

Chiefs' financial powers tripled
jamwal
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by jamwal »

Nuanced stand my foot. General VK Singh is retired and will be facing flak from all the dumb**** in MoD and UPA headed gobernment. Even though he supported General sahib earlier while he was in office, Ajai realises that he needs to be in good books of the goberment as well as the new army chief. That's probably one of the reasons behind this absolute crap article. I respected him a lot because he is an ex-serviceman, but I don't know what to say now.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Amitabh wrote: Apparently he did have "the guts" to publish it. And congratulations on being a Punjabi Brahmin. Now how about showing the guts to post Shukla's reply to you?
:rotfl: That dalaal of US arms eg. F 35 has totally sidestepped the caste issue, just saying he was present in the court and still doesn't accept judges' "blow with the wind".

Rajputs - rajput caste - rajput lobby again and again he was saying and now not a word of RAJPUT or CASTE hmmmmmmmmmmm !

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2012/05/normal.html
Broadsword said...

@ Tejas

As far as the Supreme Court rubbishing VK Singh's petition is concerned, you've apparently heard only the story put out by VK Singh's spinmeisters.

I was in court throughout the hearing, talked extensively to his lawyers, written in detail about the case, and I have seen and heard every word that was said in court. To cut a long story short, the Suoreme Court told the general's lawyers that he had conveyed his acceptance of the 1950 birth date on two separate occasions... and that it ill behooved him to now walk away from that acceptance. He had already achieved everything that an army man could aspire for and he should not now put forward untenable arguments for another ten months in the chair.

Then they asked him... do you want to withdraw your case, or would you like us to pass a judgment. At that point, correctly perceiving that the judgment would be entirely against him... VK's lawyers decided to withdraw and to declare victory to the cameras outside the court. I saw every moment of this from the ring side.

And, just for your information, I was cheering him at that stage, hoping that he would win. That was because I believed (and still do) that he was born in May 1951, not 1950.

But that does not excuse what VK Singh did after losing in court. He should have resigned that very evening. He would have had the whole country in the palm of his hand.

But he's got terrible advisors and awful personal judgment. Thank God he did not take this country to war. Given his penchant for fighting losing battles, it would have been a disaster.
29 May 2012 15:46
Ashutosh Malik
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Ashutosh Malik »

Sanku wrote:
Karan M wrote:. Anyways, we are going OT.
Thanks for the response, and yes we are going OT. So I will stop too, with a small request/thought/suggestion: If you look at each of Shukla's statements in isolation and consider their merits, like you have above, you may be able to justify them independently.

However consider them linked, Of a person like Shukla who simultaneously has this basket of views and the picture begins to change a bit.

I have to say that his views do not appear merely accidental or ignorant -- there is a pattern and I think it is not all simple.

(There are other pieces in puzzle too, for example look at who advertises heavily in BS, and whose banner is most prominent above Shukla's articles, the record of that company in some recent tenders and purchases including by Indian aviation majors etc etc)

You might be giving him way too much rope.
Sanku,

Col. Shukla seems to have clearly made a deft manoeuvre to build his career further! Was he an Armoured Corps officer?

He has probably thought through that the change in guard might have repercussions on his career as a journalist. May be the flow of information to him will get curtailed when the powers that be change. May be he wants to be in the good books of the new powers that be. Maybe he also wants to blow/ flow with the wind!

You must have probably also seen Maj. Gen. Ashok Mehta in a discussion on Headlines Today, a few days ago. Maj. Gen. Mehta commented that he supposedly has information to suggest that on May 31 Gen. V. K. Singh would refuse to bow out and there will be two chiefs! Hilarious stuff was happening in that discussion and Maj. Gen. Mehta seemed rather upset with Gen. V. K. Singh.

Best.
Ashutosh
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by nelson »

Gp Capt retd A G Bewoor speaks about the likes of Col retd Ajai Shukla, Maj Gen retd Ashok Mehta, etc
The views given below are By Gp capt AG Bewoor(retd).Many of you may be familiar with him as the officer who conducted the air ops in Male, while some of you may have met him when he was posted as SI at Air Wing DSSC.He is from the 26NDA course and has had an illustrious career in the IAF. Settled at Pune, he often writes articles and comments on the happenings in the services.The points brought out by him are very relevant, and provides enough food for thought. I am in total agreement with it, and if you too agree you should spread the message.

Sukhwant
----------------------------------------------------

Subject: THE COAS

There has been abundant wisdom and vitriol floating on the internet about COAS ever since the age issue and now this letter, bribes, etc etc. The TV as usual has gone for him hammer and tongs, politicians making full use of the TV time to make inane political speeches, but all wanting a kill. That KC Singh, Foreign Service it looks, another fraud, pontificatiing, notwithstanding that the IFS has covered itself with ignomy since 1947, making more enemies than friends. But what is most astounding and tragic is that we retired fellows have joined the band wagon against the Chief.

2. The most vehement writers are the very people who have castigated previous chiefs of sychophancy and not standing up to the bureaucracy and politician. These very critics have damned previous chiefs for not resigning in the face of non-cooperation and callousness by the civilain powers. Many of us, incl Jaswant Singh are invoking Chetewood, " The Safety Honour -----" and damning COAS for maligning the fauj. What standards are we maintaning? We want a Chief to stand up to civilians, take them on face to face, give them a taste of our capability to fight back, and when it is done, we cry foul? How else does a Chief fight the civilan? He can do it only on paper. The only reason why VK Singh is branded a villain, is because we ex-faujis have made him look like one.

3. Many are talking about Gen Timmy, and his resignation in 1959. That was 53 years back, the environment was different. Timmy was a young man comparatively in his 50s, VK Singh is 62. Media coverage was pitiable. India was an infant nation. What really did Timmy achieve by rsigning and then withdrawing? What will be achieved by VK resigning? The civilian wins, thats all. We want a Chief who fights, stands up against babus / netas, and when he does it we castigate him? No one in this group or on TV has come up with any suggestion of how COAS will tell the country that defence preparedness is bad. Every Chief writes his own letter to the PM & RM. Because it has to be on record that the current incumbent has apprised the Govt of the correct ground position. The PM / RM and their babus file the letter, send a reply that it is being looked at and return to politicking and chamchagiri to stay politically and bureaucratically alive. These fact never come out into the open, Indians never know. Now they know, because someone has leaked the letter. How has India become weaker by this leak? Does anyone think that the enemies dont know we are weak in many sectors? The babu/neta never want this info in the Indian public domain, because he does not wish to remedy it. 126 Rafaels will do nothing for India's air defence unless all other eqpt comes in.

4. We faujis are behaving exactly as the babu / neta want us to behave, COAS has done the only thing avlbl to him to corner the babu / neta, but we ex-faujis have let him down. What he has done is placed the country before himself, even though he will get brickbats yet he has told it the way it actually is. Is there another way? The ESM cannot do anything, serving officers nothing, Hazare can do nothing, DRDO will never do anything, arms dealers with their senior retired faujis will want the system to continue. Imagine, the Army budget paying 60 lakhs margin for each Tatra, whats left for guns and butter? What the COAS has shown is that most of the inflated Defence Budget is going for margins and profits. If 30 COAS's have kept quiet, is it not time for this one to say it? And we ex-faujis disagree? Amazing. Lets not split hair about the methodologies. VK must have looked at many options, many scenarios, many repercussions, many exits, many opinions from colleagues. If he had shut up, retired in May, and then had we come to know thru Wikileaks, all of us would have said why did not VK tell us, bad chief, just like all his predecessors, gutless wonder. Damned if you do, damned if you dont.

5. I humbly suggest that we now hold our comments, let the combatants fight it out, we should watch, wait and then win. After all Satya Me Vijayate, who dares wins, fortune favours the brave.

anant bewoor
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eklavya
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by eklavya »

Amitabh wrote:I am in complete agreement with Shukla's piece and the fact that he supported VKS on the age issue originally (and continues to do so) only adds to his credibility. There is no about turn by Shukla at all on this issue. It may come as a surprise to some but you do not have to be in complete agreement or complete disagreement with every issue -- most reasonable people have nuanced positions.
Amitabh,

Shukla's article is in v poor taste and casts Shukla in a terrible light. He should have reflected deeply before publishing such an appalling article on a fellow officer, that too the Chief.

Shukla's article is appaling not only because of the poor arguments he makes (there is not one shred of hard evidence to link VKS to Rajput-ism), the poor choice of language ("Last Friday, the outgoing chief proved that he had lost any lingering trace of judgement.") , but because of its timing (with VKS about to retire, and the new Chief about to assume office). The timing of the article can only lead one to draw the most ungenerous conclusions about Shukla's motives, loyalties, character and judgment. The article shows that Shukla is the sort of man who would kick another man when he is down / on the way out, and suck up to another man on the way up. The technical term for a person of such character is lickspittle.

Whatever be his motives (maybe he is a fighter for truth and justice, maybe all he wanted was 10 months more in office, I don't know, and I don't care), VKS has done the Army and the country a great service by (i) Taking on the accused in the Sukhna case, (ii) Taking on the accused in the Adarsh case, (iii) Taking on the accused in the TATRA case, (iv) highlighting the equipment shortages faced by the Army (even though the letter was leaked by someone in the PMO itself), (v) Highlighting the poor behaviour of the Army in the raid conducted in the NE, (vi) Taking a strong stance on AFSPA in J&K, (vii) Taking a strong stance on Siachen, etc etc etc

VKS has been a huge thorn in the side for the establishment. I really wish more people in his position and authority are also thorns in the side of the establishment.

One more dirty little secret: communalism/casteism/state-ism is a fact of life in India, a terrible fact of life; guess what, its also infected the armed forces, not as bad as the rest of the country, but its there. Like most forms of discrimination, it can be subtle / difficult to expose / insidious. If we care about our Army, we also need to reflect about how to deal with this problem. First step is to acknowledge it.
jamwal
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by jamwal »

This site is a tribute to General Vijay Kumar Singh, India’s only Army Chief whose mission statement was to clean up the Army image and restore it’s Honour. It is a website on the life, career and achievements of General Vijay Kumar Singh, PVSM, AVSM, YSM, ADC. The General was commissioned as a third generation officer in 2 RAJPUT Regiment (Kali Chindi) in 1970 and commanded the same battalion with distinction from June 1991 to May 1994. General Singh has seen action in the liberation War of Bangladesh in 1971 and Op. Pawan in Sri Lanka in 1987 where he was awarded Yudh Seva Medal. He has vast operational experience in Counter Insurgency Operations, LC, LAC and HAA environment. He has had an illustrious career with outstanding performance.

Gen VK Singh is a hero and true warrior. The problems that he highlights are our collective problems. Show your support for his fight!
http://generalvksingh.info/home/
nelson
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by nelson »

Ashutosh Malik wrote:...
Col. Shukla seems to have clearly made a deft manoeuvre to build his career further! Was he an Armoured Corps officer?

...
Yes, Col Shukla commanded this 4th Horse an Armoured Regiment. Watch...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqjYi-k78EM
tejas
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by tejas »

I had previously had a good opinion of the good Col. but the hatchet job article on VKS was painful to read. It smacked of a North Korean drone trying to re-write history while kissing up to the current powers that be. I was very unpleasantly surprised. Ack thoo!!!
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by suryag »

Old timers do remember when Col.AS went hammer and tongs against the Arjun here on this forum, the spat was unsavoury and AS never replied again on the forum.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Nikhil T »

Let me state that I do support and respect Gen VKS for his uprightness and his valiant anti-corruption crusade.
Sanku wrote: Further note Shukla also says

Quote:
he had conveyed his acceptance of the 1950 birth date on two separate occasions... and that it ill behooved him to now walk away from that acceptance.

Since when did SC have to sit in judgement on "how should XYZ behoove? SC had a simple job, to decide on the correct method of determination of the date of Birth.
Sanku, since when do you have the power to decide what the Supreme Court's job is? What's your legal expertise to determine that the judge was wrong? Here's SC's exact words on your bolded assertion:
TOI Link wrote:But the bench said, "As a matter of fact, the question before us in the writ petition is not about the declaration of the actual date of birth of the petitioner, but it concerns the recognition of a particular date of birth of the petitioner by the government in the official record."
Secondly, the SC's comments on "blowing with the wind" was purely related to the Age question, the judge ABSOLUTELY DID NOT pass a judgement on Gen VKS's anti-corruption crusade. And thus, dare I say, it is disingenuous of anyone here to say that "blowing with the wind means everyone will turn corrupt". You are linking an issue that was NOT within the purview of Gen Singh's petition. The SC doesn't work like a panchayat. It decrees on the exact petition in front of it. Accordingly, when the communal angle came up before it, it decided upon that.
Sanku wrote: If they were gutless to take a decision, at least Shukla should not make being gutlessness a virtue.

Or perhaps for Shukla it is.

--------------------------------------------

Will that spineless creature blowing in the wind at least take a stand on -- What should be the right age of birth of Gen VK Singh?

After all a age of birth is not a "point of view" (a favorite shield of the lying turds of the world) -- it is something, or it is not something.

But hey given enough material, perhaps even date of birth can be a relative position.
Can you please learn how to have a decent debate without turning to personal attacks? You don't have to look far - see KaranM and eklavya's posts below.

You yourself derailed the Arjun/T-90 debate for weeks with your ludicrous posts, so let me correct you on the your highlighted question above regarding taking a stand. Your post is unclear on who needs to take the stand: Ajai Shukla or the SC judges.

1. If you're referring to Ajai Shukla, read his exact words:
And, just for your information, I was cheering him at that stage, hoping that he would win. That was because I believed (and still do) that he was born in May 1951, not 1950.
2. If you're referring to the SC judge (and committing contempt of court with your bolded portions above), read this
TOI Link wrote:But the bench said, "As a matter of fact, the question before us in the writ petition is not about the declaration of the actual date of birth of the petitioner, but it concerns the recognition of a particular date of birth of the petitioner by the government in the official record."
I hold no brief for Ajai but let me state that if he had to "be in the good books of the new powers that be", his ship has long, long sailed. He has appeared dozens of times on NDTV supporting Gen VKS. Further, he would've published his latest piece in his newspaper and not write on a blog for a small audience. We're doing nothing other than conspiracy mongering. My last post on this topic.
Last edited by Nikhil T on 30 May 2012 07:24, edited 1 time in total.
tejas
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by tejas »

Shukla then stated the original version of Arjun was no good but serial improvements led it to being better than the T-90. But yes he was pummeled on BRF and did not return.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by chaanakya »

Ashutosh Malik wrote: , a few days ago. Maj. Gen. Mehta commented that he supposedly has information to suggest that on May 31 Gen. V. K. Singh would refuse to bow out and there will be two chiefs! Hilarious stuff was happening in that discussion and Maj. Gen. Mehta seemed rather upset with Gen. V. K. Singh.

Best.
Ashutosh
VKS always maintained that Age issue was not about tenure. He was ready to step down if correct age was recognised. That there would be two chiefs on the day of his retirement is nothing but a cruel joke by a sick mind.
While Govt has not passed any order on his petition after the SC Non-decision in the matter , it was not in doubt that he would /would have to step down.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Karan M »

Depressing read about the truth of the Indian system. Please read through - I came across this review while going through MK Dhars eulogy and reading about the person.

Note what his investigations revealed about KGB penetration and how the ruling party completely manipulated the system.

It makes clear what VK Singh and Anna Hazare types (inflexibly honest) are up against.
India’s Intelligence Unveiled

BOOK REVIEW:Open Secrets. India’s Intelligence Unveiled by M K Dhar Reviewed by Sreeram Chaulia

Released when intelligence agencies of major global powers are facing flak for incompetence and fabrication, Open Secrets is the first attempt to break the taboo of shielding the Indian intelligence fraternity under a permanent veil. “As powerful a weapon as a fusion bomb”, (p India’s intelligence infrastructure has been weaponized by the governing class to hit the governed. Like the police, civil administration and judiciary, it has been used as a handmaiden to suit petty political ends and crush constitutional liberties. Dhar, an operative in India’s Intelligence Bureau (IB) for three decades, has a muckraking tale to tell.

Since Indira Gandhi’s time in the 1960s, the IB director has answered solely to the prime minister and home minister. The refusal of political masters to allow induction of expert staff from lateral fields has perpetuated a servile “police culture” in the bureau. “An average IB officer is not oriented with the techniques of war pursued by mujahideen and fidayeen fanatics.” (p13) Non-productive human assets clutter the bureau. Lack of in-service checks fosters a “breeding ground for Goerings and Himmlers in the backyard of constitutional democracy”. (p 1

No meaningful cooperation between state and central intelligence entities exists, especially when different political parties rule at the center and in the states. Coordination among the three prime central agencies, IB, RAW (Research and Analysis Wing) and CBI (Central Bureau of Investigation), is non-existent. The Kargil and Surankote intelligence failures are two glaring illustrations of a divided house of Indian spook (see Kashmir’s snake in the grass June 7, 2003).

Dhar gives a clarion call for freeing intelligence organizations from the machinations of the executive. Legislation to make the agencies accountable to parliamentary committees is a crying necessity. Election prospecting, verifying credentials of ruling party candidates, researching the weaknesses of opposition candidates, toppling and interfering with elected governments and other dirty operations victimizing the innocent are shameful tasks assigned to agencies that should be protecting national security.

As a budding officer of the Indian Police Service in 1965, Dhar learned the nitty-gritty of grassroots intelligence collection in Darjeeling, Siliguri and Naksalbari (northern Bengal). His unusual techniques of raising human assets were encouraged with subventions from the police Secret Service Fund. Meetings with Charu Majumdar and Jangal Santhal, forefathers of India’s extreme Maoist movement, convinced Dhar that violent agrarian revolution was not far off. However, politicians from Calcutta (now Kolkata) and Delhi showed no intentions of addressing the economic woes of the rural populace. “Indian rulers blindly follow the firefighting ideology in dealing with great social and economic fault lines.” (p 71)

In 1968, as a bolt from the blue, Dhar was advised to join the IB in Delhi. The intelligence technocrats he met there were “cast iron cookies” who swore by regimentation and loyalty. The abject submissiveness of officers robbed them of initiative and measured aggression. The IB reeked of factionalism, corruption and nepotism. Trainers treated the ruling Congress Party as Caesar’s wife in the political analysis classes. They totally neglected “economic intelligence” and its relevance to unrest in society. Coastal security was unheard of as a concept. The curricula had a myopic strategic view and general officers were anomalously segregated from technical officers.

Posted to Manipur after training, Dhar was released “into troubled water like a scared fry”. (p 95) Battered by Naga-Mizo rebellions and Meitei agitation for statehood, Manipur was in coma. Dhar raised very sensitive human assets and gained access to inner cores of the Imphal valley. Wanting political and bureaucratic support to survive, he cultivated assets inside the Manipur administration. His reports that Meitei ultras were being taken to Sylhet in East Pakistan for military training were treated as overreactions by the IB headquarters. “They thought that a greenhorn with only about four years experience was trying to act smart.” (p 107)

On prime minister Indira Gandhi’s visit to the region in 1969, Dhar’s “humint” (human intelligence) inputs on armed disturbances saved the day and exposed the pathetic state of VIP security arrangements. His top-secret negotiations with insurgents succeeded in the conclusive eradication of Mizo militancy from Manipur in 1970. Stalking Naga gangs from hilltop to hilltop on their way to and from East Pakistan was not the only kind of action Dhar took. In 1972, Gandhi’s point persons asked him to topple the Manipur state government. It was the first of many instances of “bleeding in silence at the rape of my conscience”. (p 14

Transferred to neighboring Nagaland when underground armies were escalating jungle warfare with Chinese support, Dhar thwarted and neutralized several militant posses. Since Nagas value the family as an institution, his strategy of involving family in work paid dividends. His personal friendships with key rebel leaders such as K Yallay, Z Ramyo and B M Keyho aided the Indian government’s peace talks in 1974-75. His second tryst with unlawful acts came when Delhi called on him to subvert the loyalty of a section of Nagaland’s elected legislature.

In 1975, Dhar was moved to the just-annexed state of Sikkim. He became the first Indian official to fraternize with the deposed king (Chogyal) and bring his sulking loyalists into the mainstream. To observe Chinese posts along the disputed border, he won over numerous transborder agents who made forays deep into Tibet. During Gandhi’s emergency (a sort of martial rule declared in 1975), he was asked to frame the Chogyal and persuade local politicians to back the bullying Sanjay Gandhi, Indira’s younger son. In 1977, the Janata Party government ordered Dhar to perform a converse action of political prostitution. Such immoral compulsions drove him into mental depression.

In 1979, Dhar was brought back to Delhi to head the IB’s “Election Cell”. Prime minister Charan Singh ordered him to assess “what was required in each constituency to influence the electorate”. (p 233) When Gandhi rode back to power, she asked him to assist the Puri Committee, a tool of political vendetta, to blacken the faces of her opponents.

In 1980, Dhar was placed at the USSR counter-intelligence desk of the IB. He identified four central ministers, more than two dozen ministers of parliament, and layers of the armed forces to be on the payrolls of the KGB. His penchant for digging out skeletons forced a hurried shift to the subsidiary bureau in Delhi, practically the “special branch of the Prime Minister’s Office”. (p 252) From the perch, he espied the astonishing influence of Indian Rasputins like Dhirendra Brahmachari, “Mamaji” and Chandraswami. Indian industry bigwig, Dhirubhai Ambani, and other wheeler-dealers approached him for illegal favors.

After Sanjay Gandhi’s death, Dhar was commissioned to shadow his widow Maneka and her associates. He was even asked to record the conversation of home minister Zail Singh with a Sikh militant on Indira Gandhi’s instructions. The Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) pressed him to sabotage Devi Lal’s Haryana state government. The entire field machinery of the Delhi IB was mobilized to help the Congress Party win the Delhi municipal elections in 1983. In conspiracy and thuggery, “there was hardly any difference between the durbars [holders of high political position] of Jahangir and the viceroys and those of Morarji Desai and Indira Gandhi”. (p 284)

Dhar was next posted to the Indian mission in Canada with the brief of penetrating the transcontinental Khalistan separatist network. The RAW representatives in Ottawa resented his presence and raked up a turf battle. Dhar accessed extremist Sikh Gurdwaras and sections of the vocal Sikh community. Diplomatic assets ferreted out useful information on Pakistan’s Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) links with Sikh secessionists. Dhar ’s uncorroborated information about a terrorist attack involving an Indian aircraft was not taken seriously by Canadian authorities, leading to the Air India Kanishka bombing in 1985.

Returning home in 1987, Dhar joined the Punjab cell of the IB. He vehemently opposed the government policy of “filling up the follies of fault lines with dead bodies”. (p 320) Unlike his colleagues, Dhar’s operations avoided mindless killings of civilians. He drove wedges between feuding Sikh terrorist leaders and outfits and facilitated two secret peace initiatives of prime minister Rajiv Gandhi. Home minister Buta Singh’s own underground group spoilt one demarche. Singh, the Punjab governor, state police and a jealous section of IB officers stonewalled the second plan. One IB faction opposed to Dhar leaked out the identity of a valuable asset and sacrificed him to the bullets of a Khalistani hit squad. Be it Punjab or Nepal, “agent safety was not a part of IB’s professional ethics”. (p 491)

Promoted to the Pakistan Counter-Intelligence Unit (PCIU) in 1988, Dhar launched transborder agents to penetrate Pakistani posts on the Punjab and Rajasthan borders. Rajiv Gandhi’s lackey, Mani Shankar Aiyar (presently a central minister), instigated a crude incident of arresting a Pakistani “cover diplomat” against the counsel of Dhar. The prime minister’s troubleshooters and some of their IB acolytes naively propped up the Bodoland and Gorkhaland agitations in Assam and Bengal.

At PCIU, Dhar discovered that Mulayam Singh Yadav (later defense minister) was in clandestine contact with the ISI. Sincere IB efforts to nab mujahideen and Pakistani agents were frustrated by key Indian politicians in Delhi, Bihar and Bengal. Undeterred, Dhar helped the IB regain a toehold in the Kashmir Valley and penetrated some jihadi training camps in Pakistan.

In 1989, Dhar aided the Assam operations of the IB. The collaboration of politicians and bureaucrats had whetted sub-nationalist aspirations in Assam. After creating Frankensteins, the state government was incapable of planned military action against the ULFA (United Liberation Front of Assam). Infected layers within the Assamese regime divulged advance information about Indian army plans and allowed insurgents to cross over into friendly Bangladesh. Fat amounts from the Secret Service Fund of the IB for “missions” in Assam were never utilized for the putative purpose.

In 1991, Dhar was posted a chief of the IB’s secret technical wing. Groupism and favoritism ruled in this “breeding ground of inefficiency”. (p 423) Policing mentality occluded opening the doors of intelligence to scientific specialists. The abject condition of Indian intelligence’s cipher breaking cost the life of Rajiv Gandhi. Ministry mandarins and greasy alley manipulators defeated Dhar’s reform proposals. Apart from diplomatic constraints on aggressive intelligence collection, he was enjoined by diehard Gandhi family hangers-on to record exotic audio and videotapes about a romantic liaison of P V Narasimha Rao, just before his confirmation as prime minister in 1992.

Back at PCIU, Dhar busted many ISI networks across India and tapped “fountain organizations” that hovered over the peripheries of Islamist outfits. Frustrated by red tape, he took unapproved measures to raise “talents” inside Nepal and Bangladesh for mapping ISI fields. Certain “special projects” penetrated targets in Karachi, Islamabad, Lahore and Peshawar.

In November 1992, prime minister Rao ordered Dhar to arrange a discreet meeting with the supremo of the RSS (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh), the fountainhead of Hindutva. The wily Congressman actually had “old linkages with the Sangh as a student”. (p 466) Reminded that the stability of Rao’s job depended on subordination, the PMO tried to force Dhar to “cooperate” with the Ambanis by implicating their corporate rivals.
Dhar’s final struggle was against the erroneous persecution of fellow IB officers who honestly investigated the infamous ISRO (Indian Space Research Organization) espionage case of 1994. Mention of the prime minister’s son as a suspect rushed Rao to prevail upon the Kerala state government and the CBI director to “go slow” and bury the trail. The accused were exonerated without due process. Indian rocket/missile security was compromised. Dhar’s efforts after retirement to get the case reopened invited death threats and assassination attempts.

Open Secrets is a depressing hidden camera fixed on the systemic failures of Indian polity and intelligence. It illuminates the weaknesses of India’s national security setup and exhorts urgent patchwork.
http://telespy.blogspot.in/2008/07/indi ... eiled.html
http://maloykrishnadhar.com/
sum
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by sum »

^^ Yup..the book is truely a keeper.

I keep reading and re-reading the same whenever bit free since the stories never fail to fascinate every time
Sanku
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Sanku »

Ashutosh Malik wrote:
Sanku,

Col. Shukla seems to have clearly made a deft manoeuvre to build his career further! Was he an Armoured Corps officer?

You must have probably also seen Maj. Gen. Ashok Mehta in a discussion on Headlines Today,....

Best.
Ashutosh
Indeed Ashutosh, I could not agree more.
Sanku
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Sanku »

Dear Nikhil,
You yourself derailed the Arjun/T-90 debate for weeks with your ludicrous posts, so let me

etc etc....
By and large I have taken to not respond to meaninglessly meandering posts which couch personal attack by posters frustrated at having a poor point of view rubbished in the past.

The rest of your points have more than suitably addressed in the previous posts. If you want to discuss anything other than "me" or any other poster, and if you do civilly, I will be happy to respond.

Cheers. Toot toot.
Amitabh
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Amitabh »

eklavya wrote:
Amitabh wrote:I am in complete agreement with Shukla's piece and the fact that he supported VKS on the age issue originally (and continues to do so) only adds to his credibility. There is no about turn by Shukla at all on this issue. It may come as a surprise to some but you do not have to be in complete agreement or complete disagreement with every issue -- most reasonable people have nuanced positions.
Amitabh,

Shukla's article is in v poor taste and casts Shukla in a terrible light. He should have reflected deeply before publishing such an appalling article on a fellow officer, that too the Chief.

Shukla's article is appaling not only because of the poor arguments he makes (there is not one shred of hard evidence to link VKS to Rajput-ism), the poor choice of language ("Last Friday, the outgoing chief proved that he had lost any lingering trace of judgement.") , but because of its timing (with VKS about to retire, and the new Chief about to assume office). The timing of the article can only lead one to draw the most ungenerous conclusions about Shukla's motives, loyalties, character and judgment. The article shows that Shukla is the sort of man who would kick another man when he is down / on the way out, and suck up to another man on the way up. The technical term for a person of such character is lickspittle.

Whatever be his motives (maybe he is a fighter for truth and justice, maybe all he wanted was 10 months more in office, I don't know, and I don't care), VKS has done the Army and the country a great service by (i) Taking on the accused in the Sukhna case, (ii) Taking on the accused in the Adarsh case, (iii) Taking on the accused in the TATRA case, (iv) highlighting the equipment shortages faced by the Army (even though the letter was leaked by someone in the PMO itself), (v) Highlighting the poor behaviour of the Army in the raid conducted in the NE, (vi) Taking a strong stance on AFSPA in J&K, (vii) Taking a strong stance on Siachen, etc etc etc

VKS has been a huge thorn in the side for the establishment. I really wish more people in his position and authority are also thorns in the side of the establishment.

One more dirty little secret: communalism/casteism/state-ism is a fact of life in India, a terrible fact of life; guess what, its also infected the armed forces, not as bad as the rest of the country, but its there. Like most forms of discrimination, it can be subtle / difficult to expose / insidious. If we care about our Army, we also need to reflect about how to deal with this problem. First step is to acknowledge it.
Eklavya,

You may be right about (i) and (ii) but I would not give him extra credit for the remaining points. He did not pursue the Tatra case until very late in the day, and the remaining points are either what any army chief should do or matters of army policy that go beyond chief x or y. The reason I am being contrarian here is that:

(1) I have heard from a number of army sources that he has played the communal card and that too in pursuit of personal goals. The army is not the terrain for caste battles to promote individual interests;
(2) Contrary to what everyone here and in the wider public believes there is I believe some truth to Shekhar Gupta's report of the non-coup; obviously it was not a real coup attempt (since there are other larger units in Delhi that would attempt that) but (a) the unit movements were highly unusual in that they were in the direction of Delhi and (b) the government did activate certain protocols that are put in place when it believes an armed takeover might be in the offing.

I do not expect most people here to accept my argument since it is non-verifiable, but I am entitled to my own views. Logically, if I believe that the army chief is playing a communal card and that he (even if slightly) threatened the sanctity of civilian control of the military, then I can only conclude that he is guilty of poor judgment.
Singha wrote:you emerged from hibernation and came all the way here to post about shukla's response to manish? :shock:
I did not. Feel free to do a simple search on this forum. Or do you have the same research standards as the DDM?
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