Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Asha

[Sagar G]

Creating I guess. Is it already in existence?

Yes, I first came to know about it from a book titled "The World of The Castrati :The History of An Extraordinary Operatic Phenomenon" some 2-3 yrs. back. Haven't been able to get a hand on it but the book has been well received, so I have read can't confirm. Here take a look in Flipkart, wasn't available then isn't yet available

Wordweb gives the meaning, Castrati - A male singer who was castrated before puberty and retains a soprano or alto voice. The book talks about this historical phenomena in europe.

[ramana]

In our case it means "napunsak" /euunuch/castrated leader ship in other words powerless leader class that does nothing to further the interests of the nation-state. We have seen that from the Epic times in India. Due to misperception of Dharma they manage to stay on until forcefully removed by an avatar or uprising.

Modern day elections were supposed to allow this replacement to happen without bloodshed. Misfortunately the castratti in India have learned to use votebanks, EVM and paid media to hang on regardless. And uniquely they are confined to one geographic area, the Indo-Gangetic plains and are popularly known as dilli billis.


So its an alternate meaning and we should credit Philip for that meaning.

Thanks for the research on opera singers. What a bunch of loosers. BTW a few years back, BBC had a program bemoaning a young Northern Irish choir singer with a great voice who was on verge on growing up and how it would be a loss to the English Church world.

[Sagar G]

So its an alternate meaning and we should credit Philip for that meaning.

Agreed.

[ramana]

ArmenT, Can you do the honors?

However use an extra t.

castaratti: A term to refer to powerless leaders and their coterie who hold on to power and work against national interests.

Castaratti is like the chatteratti or glitteratti and is group term. Offcourse some of them could be pre-eminent like MMS.

Term coined by Philip

[shyamd]

Intel walas saying Pak was hoping that India would mobilise troops due to the LOC incident.
Some reports pointing that this incident was supposed to help Zardari gang in elections

[Prem]

I belive Naga, Gurkha can manage Paki neck beautifully but nothing will beat the magic if we can hire few cannibals from Indianasia or Australian Abrogines to do what they do best.

[Mihir]

Now Prem Shankar Jha weights in with a long, rambling, piece of equal-equal.

http://tehelka.com/cover-story-walking- ... nglepage=1

I've posted the following comment on the website. Let's see if they publish it.

Mr. Jha's piece has three central theses, and they're all flawed. Let's examine them in turn.

He says that the beheading was carried out by Pakistani soldiers acting without orders, but fits the pattern of "State-encouraged barbarism" that has persisted for over a decade. Problem is, the two arguments pretty much contradict each other. If it is state-encouraged, then it is hardly a one-off, freak occurrence, is it? He also says that this incident has reawakened the "dormant fear and distrust" that Indians have felt for Pakistan. He writes as if this fear and distrust is completely unjustified, when the facts point to quite the opposite. Right from Kargil to the Parliament attacks to the Ghatkopar bombings and 26/11, the Pakistani establishment has shown little interest in lasting peace and détente. They participate in dialogue because it costs them next to nothing, they get good PR, and it stops India from responding to their shenanigans in kind. It makes little sense to imply that we could have all lined up and sung Kumbaya had we Indians been smart enough to ignore such minor provocations and continue appeasing the Pakistanis.

His next argument is that the Pakistani Army is trying hard to safeguard Pakistan from the fallout of American forces leaving Afghanistan after the failure of their campaign. It is courting the Happani network to avoid the jihadis from turning on Pakistan, unlike the civilian government, which is pushing from sustained American presence in Afghanistan. He goes on to say that India is only strengthening the Pakistani Army's hand by and by responding so vocally to the beheading. Two problems with that. One, if the Americans are already defeated and looking for a face saving exit, no amount of trying on part of the Pakistani civilian government is going to get them to stay. The Pakistani Army has already accomplished what it wanted. There's nothing India can do about it. Two, the American defeat did not happen in spite of the Pakistani Army's best efforts to prevent it; the Pakistani Army has actively undermined American presence in Afghanistan, and provided every form of support to Taliban fighters bent on defeating them. It's courting the Haqqanis to regain strategic control of the old stomping ground it had a free run in until 2011. India silently absorbing more attacks does not going to make the civilian government stronger, or disincentivise the Pakistani Army from going about this business in Afghanistan.

And finally, he's obliquely blaming India for precipitating the current crisis, which is a bit rich. It was the Indian Army that found a tunnel that was built to circumvent the border fencing. The ceasefire was violated the moment the tunnel was built. And the India Army was completely justified in taking appropriate steps to destroy the tunnel. If the Pakistanis fired on Indian troops doing this, and Indian troops retaliated, one cannot blame India as Shri Jha has done. He's right that "none of this should have happened". Pakistan only had to genuinely halt terrorist activities near the border, or at least allow India to destroy the tunnel without shooting at the soldiers trying to do so. But that would have required the Pakistanis to approach the issue of normalisation of ties with the intention of achieving lasting peace, instead of just short-term breathing space.

I'm more in agreement with what Nitin Pai and Ajai Shukla have suggested. Keep the response tactical. Don't jeopardise the détente or dialogue, now that we are using it to our advantage. Our long-term strategic goals are not served by war-mongering or overreacting to his incident.

[ramana]

ShyamD, Dont need intel walas to claim TSP wants India to mobilise.
They will always say that for they have been wrong many times.
And they are under control of the castaratti.

Provoking mobilization is one of the many reasons. Its not the root cause.

[ramana]

Prem Shankar Jha was always batting for everyone but for India.

He is comparing the beheading to the Godhra train burning. I think the psecs are the true communalists who see the communal angle in every issue.

On 8 January, the Northern Command of the Indian Army disclosed that Pakistani troops had crossed the LOC in Poonch, killed two Indian soldiers, beheaded one of them, and taken his head with them. The news of this barbaric act was swaddled in references to a series of similar violations in the previous six weeks to which the Indian Army had been forced to respond. Broadcast nationwide by 24-hour news television, this disclosure enraged the Indian public in a manner not dissimilar to the impact that hourly telecasts of burnt bodies being extracted from the Sabarmati Express train in Gujarat’s Godhra district had upon the country in 2002. Today, the air is once more full of television hounds baying for Pakistani blood.

He hasnt yet called the Indian Army "Hindutva" to soothe his misplaced ego.

The surprising part of the Northern Command’s press release was its decision to disclose the beheading of one of the soldiers, Lance Naik Hemraj. The act was no doubt callous and barbaric but their decision to publicise it was questionable, to say the least. Because, this is not the first time that Pakistani troops or irregulars have crossed the LOC and committed such a heinous act. The first of such acts, to this writer’s knowledge, was in 2000, carried out by Ilyas Kashmiri, a former member of Pakistan’s Special Services Group who later turned renegade and emerged in North Waziristan in 2007-08 as the military commander of al Qaeda in Afghanistan and a key link for the ISI with the Haqqani group of the Taliban. Kashmiri had carried the head back with him to Muzaffarabad, and deposited it at the feet of the prime minister of Pakistan- occupied Kashmir (POK).

The then Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf had declared Kashmiri a hero and rewarded him with Pakistani Rs 1 lakh. This may have set a precedent. A second such beheading took place in 2008, and a third, involving two Indian soldiers, occurred in the Karnah sector of Jammu & Kashmir last year.

So TSP has shown a pattern of beheadings and Indian Army is supposed to turn Gandian and offer more heads and not even let the nation know what is happening while the castaratti make merry with Kharouis?

Unfortunately, it has come at a time when the Indian public had begun to hope that the Pakistani leopard was finally changing its spots.

{The castratti was pre-eminent in selling this snake oil to the Indian public. The anger is against the castaratti and not just the TSP for being gulible again like in 1962. Paksitan is being pakistan and Islamist hell hole. It is the castratti and their minions who are trying to sing lullabies to the Indian public about how the snake is not poisonous.}

It has, therefore, reawakened the dormant fear and distrust that the Indian people have traditionally felt towards the western neighbour. Whenever such events have happened in the past, there has been no dearth of self-appointed analysts ever ready to look for some Pakistani grand design behind them. On this occasion, they have had a field day because the event has coincided with a growing turmoil in Pakistan. This has played into the conspiracy theorists’ hands.

How is Mr Jha qualified to ponitifcate about TSP? Does he have direct line to their rotten brains? He is also self appointed.

THE ORIGINS of the turmoil can, quite easily, be traced back to the circumstances of Pakistan’s painful birth. But the immediate cause is its increasingly reluctant involvement in America’s War on Terror. Pakistan is finally reaping the whirlwind that it sowed 12 years ago. It is apparent to all those not beguiled by the spindoctors of US President Barack Obama’s administration that the US has lost that war and is intent only upon finding a face-saving exit. A jihad-riven, nearly bankrupt State of Pakistan is the largest part of the detritus that the US will leave behind

Hello it was India that was partitioned and not pakistan. What painful birth for Pakistan? It was a painful abortion for India.

MKG fasted to ensure the Pakis got money sustain themselves. The British Indian Army assets were divided with TSP getting one third even when they were not economically contributing to the funding of the BIA.

As for reluctant involvement in America's war on terror, it was TSP that was the source, origin and sustenance of the AlQ attack on US. Read up on who was the room mate of Mohd Atta the 9/11 lead hijacker. It was a PAF officer most likely his handler.

Time might dim the prespective but it should not distort it. Or it will lead to angry misled Indian public!

Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari’s government, which last year realised that Pakistan is entirely dependent upon American largesse to meet its external debt servicing burden and stave off default. The civilian government has, therefore, preferred to continue providing essential logistical support to enable the US and NATO forces to continue their orderly exit from Afghanistan next year

Hello even after Partition, Paksistan could only be sustained with money from India. After that ran out, it became a rentier state and got aid(s) from UK, US and PRC doing thier dirty work as needed. And a note for PS Jha, even from time of Ashoka, when he was governor of Taxila, the region depended on Indo-Gangetic subsidy. So its not new. But maybe his reading British version of history might have distorted his understanding.

The Supreme Court’s 15 January order to arrest Pakistan Prime Minister Raja Pervez Ashraf spells not only a victory for the Pakistan Army, but quite possibly the end of Pakistan’s decades-long quest for democracy. The coincidence of the judgment against the PM and the return to Pakistan, after many years in Canada, of a renowned sufi scholar and moderate Islamic activist, Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, is almost certainly not fortuitous. For, everything that Qadri is saying is music to the Pakistan Army’s ears

I agree on this conclusion. Qadrification of TSP is Paki spring. It will bring in nominal mullah rule. This is the fourth model of an Islamist state.
- First was under Muhammad who was head of religion and state, next was Caliph, an elected and later heriditary head of state and nominal head of religion, then came Sultan a head of state only and now to a Mullah as head of state and religion.

THE MOST tragic part of the story is that none of this need have happened. Praveen Swami, Delhi editor of The Hindu, was briefed by one or a very few senior and extremely courageous officials, and has dared to tell the true story of what triggered the clashes on the LOC. It all began when one lonely old woman, separated from her family by politics and barbed wire, decided to cross the LOC to live with her sons and grandchildren in the village of Charonda, a few metres on the Pakistani side. Unfortunately for her, there was a giant, electrified barbed wire fence in between. But there was also a tunnel that was being used to circumvent it. The old lady either came to know of it, or someone took pity on her and showed her where it was, but in any case, one afternoon she simply crossed over, and in doing so, gave away the secret of its existence to the Indian Army.

Those extremely courageous officals were political hacks who were undermining the Indian state position and most likely from the ivory tower of the PMO. BTW that ivory tower is more like a Tower of Silence of the Parsis. It has people who are walking dead and are the essence of the castratti. If they descended the ivory tower to defuse the crisis by selective leaking to policital hacks then they did the opposite for it inflamed the sleeping public.

And it was wrong year. The Ind Army stated on record unlike those courageous officials that the incident was in 2011 and not in 2012 when the current beheadings occured. So wrong narrative. It was a planted story to confuse the issue. As the Latin phrase goes "Suggesto falci, Suppresso veri!"

By contrast, the respite Manmohan Singh’s government gained from Praveen Swami’s article last week has proved temporary

And the ref to Op Brasstacks is apt. Look at the number and mix of people briefed then. And now. Only one reporter of a US slanted newspaper vs six editors of all the national press. So how does the public know if this truth or Aman ki Tamsha?

Again the breifing you got was factual. This one is wrong year. So it is incorrect. And is an exercise in managing the opinion and not in staving off the anger.

Rule number one in a crisis: Hurry up and tell the truth. And the bad news first. Do not manage the news.

Although Indian Army Chief Bikram Singh has denied it, it appears Indian soldiers were also the first to cross the LOC, again a decision with enormous international implications that was taken entirely by the Indian Army, and a Pakistani soldier was killed and another critically injured.

Now Mr Jha you are calling the Indian Army chief as being economical with truth in other words a liar. You need to back this up or apologize.

What cannot be denied is that the fruits of years of patient diplomatic fence-mending have been laid waste in a matter of hours by acts that border on rank indiscipline. The least the country needs and should expect is a thorough and open investigation into precisely how such decisions could be taken without the prime minister, the Cabinet and even, quite possibly, the Ministry of Defence, giving their explicit and prior sanction.

The cabinet is known for not taking any decisions. Its a castratti. And nature abhors a vacuum.
The warnings were given because TSP was misinterpreting the Indian capability. It could lead to war no one wants. The IAF chief is the Chiefs of Staff and was speaking in that role. He has done the nation a great service and cleared the TSP misperceptions and prevented a war.

Oh by the way what are the benefits so often mentioned but not ennumerated of this so called dialogue? Aka diplomatic fence mending.

Not one milestone that GOI had stated as the minimum for resumption of talks has materialised.

Can Mr Jha enumerate the 'fruits" of this bogus" diplomatic fence mending" in his next article?

[Prem]

http://tribune.com.pk/story/495408/indi ... -tensions/
India for step-by-step approach on easing LoC tensions

Responding to Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar’s dialogue offer to ease Line of Control (LoC) tension, her Indian counterpart Salman Khurshid said both the countries should “not rush into the matter and (let us) move step by step,” Hindustan Times reported on Thursday.Khar, during the Asia Society session in New York, had said that “the doors to dialogue are open.” “We need to meet at any level, I think we need to call each other, we need to become mature countries which know how to handle their truth,” she added.Khurshid and defence minister AK Antony also briefed the Indian cabinet about the situation following the cross border incursion.Tensions have flared in the past week after three Pakistani soldiers and two Indian soldiers were killed after India started construction of posts near the LoC, in violation of the ceasefire. Things have not cooled despite a brigadier level meeting between troops on both sides on Sunday.However, militaries on both sides came out on Wednesday with a public desire to de-escalate tensions.

[pentaiah]

One of the easiest ways to win votes, or show maradgiri by TSP is to go across the border kill innocents or mutilate bodies of Indian soldiers. (This methodology has always been very true with all Islamic forces. ) They get ratings boost in TSP.

While in India all worms and Resident India Pakis (RIP) come out blaming ourselves and how not to go for quick decisive preventive action.

It is also to be noted as an institution IA is in capable of swift and precision localized action.
Our strategy is to wage World War II type very orthodox single dimensional warfare not a multi dimensional warfare where IA, IAF, IN together to pull a team for a specific mission.

We will be like this onlee, because there is no change in the mindset our people, netas, or Generals Admirals or Marshals at least for the last 17 years I have been reading BRF

This shall too pass unanswerd

[JohnTitor]

I think PMO should answer why earlier incidents of beheading of our jawans were not disclosed.

1. Doesn't PMO think that it is an issue of national importance?
2. If it is not, then how does PMO explain the current anguish and anger at this Pak barbarity on Lance Naik Hemraj Singh?
3. If PMO thinks that this outrage is all politically motivated at the behest of some Hindu nationalist parties, then the PM should say this explicitly, that such an incident is no reason for the country to be outraged and it is all a conspiracy by the opposition.
4. On the other hand if the issue is indeed of national importance, then why this silence earlier?
5. If suppressing of such news was for a higher cause, then one should let the nation and analysts debate whether this higher cause is compatible with this Pakistani behavior?
6. Otherwise suppressing such news of national importance is CRIMINAL on the part of PMO!

The PM should give a detailed and full account to the Parliament in a live public telecast of ALL such incidents on the LoC, on the international border with Pakistan, within Kashmir and within rest of India, where Pakistani Army and their sponsored terrorists have beheaded and/or tortured Indian military men!

The PM should also give a detailed account of how his Government reacted after each incident, what new measures they put in place, what policy corrections they made, and what lessons they learned.

The Parliament of India and the Indian people deserve to know a full account of Pakistani barbarity on the Indian people.

All the names of our fallen and maimed heroes need to spoken out loudly and what they suffered for the nation be told!

No offense intended Rajeshji, but the people of India have no such right. They forfeited that right when they voted in a bunch of rapists, murderers, looters and inept group to run the nation. All they have a right to is reservations and other nuggets for their vote.

You, I and all the educated people who are reading this, the papers and know what the truth is, can crib all we want but nothing will ever change unless the educated class translate it to votes. I know many "educated" (as in degree holders) people who would still vote based on caste and nothing else. You really can't expect much from those that these anti-nationals vote in.

I'm not someone who bets, but I CAN BET with almost certainty that kangress will not only win the Delhi election, but also the general election next year.

Oh how I dream of the day when our nation is like Japan.. ashamed of corruption and false promises. Just look at this pic!


ANA executives bowed in shame to apologise to passengers and their families

Boeing 787 Dreamliner: The impact of safety concerns

These guys are apologising and feeling ashamed for grounding aircraft due to no direct fault of their own. Which Indian politician or businessman have you seen showing any shame? What you can expect from our system is this!. But I guess its only a dream and forever will remain so.

Educated people in India need to go out and vote.. and do so based on policies and manifestos rather than caste. Until that happens, we can never expect anything to change.

[vasu raya]

Our strategy is to wage World War II type very orthodox single dimensional warfare not a multi dimensional warfare where IA, IAF, IN together to pull a team for a specific mission

Very true sir, they know it was paki SSG behind this, a brutal message needs to be sent that such actions aren't an option for whatever grand designs they have hatched. Be-headings are a provocation option that Pakis have been executing for a while. What are India's options? and was any executed at any point that nullified this Paki option for good?

[Sagar G]

These guys are apologising and feeling ashamed for grounding aircraft due to no direct fault of their own. Which Indian politician or businessman have you seen showing any shame? What you can expect from our system is this!. But I guess its only a dream and forever will remain so.

Ancestors of these very guys were also involved in genocide, carrying out inhuman experimentation's on humans and I am pretty sure I can find more dirt about them if I start searching, so if your grand plan of lecturing Indians revolves around "sucking up to TFTA's" then I would say it's a very bad plan. Do course correction.

[Sagar G]

Oh how I dream of the day when our nation is like Japan.. ashamed of corruption and false promises. Just look at this pic!

Then you should move to JAPAN and complete your dream please spare us your lectures and sucking up.

[lakshmikanth]

Might also want to look into this:

http://imperialjapanesehistory.tumblr.c ... -prisoners

[JohnTitor]

These guys are apologising and feeling ashamed for grounding aircraft due to no direct fault of their own. Which Indian politician or businessman have you seen showing any shame? What you can expect from our system is this!. But I guess its only a dream and forever will remain so.

Ancestors of these very guys were also involved in genocide, carrying out inhuman experimentation's on humans and I am pretty sure I can find more dirt about them if I start searching, so if your grand plan of lecturing Indians revolves around "sucking up to TFTA's" then I would say it's a very bad plan. Do course correction.

You missed my point. I wasn't trying to say their culture is better or whatever you feel I said.

I am proud of my culture and my background and I don't need to suck up to anyone, let alone TFTAs.

Our ancestors were a great civilised people, and thats what I feel sad of losing. The fact that TFTA ancestors were mass murderers isn't my concern. It is what they are NOW. Again, I am not endorsing everything they do .. I do not like the way they treat animals for instance. I don't agree with "regime change" (always done when it suits them). If I told you that the great vedic civilization came up with methods to prevent and treat various illnesses which modern medicine is only now able to treat, it would make you proud. Don't let cloud your view of what India is slowly becoming today. But lets not forget, though we hail from that we are no longer living in that civilization.

I don't agree with most of what the US politicians do, but at the end of the day, they atleast do things toward what they perceive as "national interest" - while our politicians do everything against it. They divide the population just as the empire before did, but whats shameful is that our own people are doing this. All so that they can be in power and loot the populace.

I love India more than you could imagine. I do not need to prove it to you or anyone else. This is precisely why it hurts to see it being destroyed slowly.

[JohnTitor]

Oh how I dream of the day when our nation is like Japan.. ashamed of corruption and false promises. Just look at this pic!

Then you should move to JAPAN and complete your dream please spare us your lectures and sucking up.

This is just a strawman argument, trying to divert it from the real issue - the rot that is hurting India.

Don't mistake criticism for "desh drohi-ism". I want things to improve. I do my part, but I alone can't do much. We as a society together can.

BTW.. to suck up, I need to find someone from japan. You can't call it a suckup when you're telling the wrong people. So stop going off topic.

All this is in relation with the way the GOI has dealt with the butchering of 2 of our soldiers. Israel went to war over 1 soldier. yes 1 soldier! and our PM takes a week to make a comment! Now are you going to say I am sucking up to Israelis???

Funny how you make it sound like wishing something better for my country is akin being a traitor. So you wouldn't learn of the good traits from the Russians, the British, the Americans, the Israelis and the Japanese (loads more if you think about it) just because their ancestors were mass murderers, torturers and the like? You conveniently ignored the bolded part of my message.. and focused on the useless bit!

Added later: I am adding this here rather than reply to your own post as I do not wish to continue this. While I am trying to root cause the problem, you are only interested in proving your patriotism (or my disloyalty). I'm not getting into that debate. I, like the other 1.25bil Indians have an opinion on what the issue are and how to fix it. You have yours. There is no way to prove you are right anymore than I can prove I am right. I've pointed out why I brought the issue up and you're skirting away from it just to fault me. If you wish to discuss on what the cause of the lack of patriotism and the constant sucking up of WKKs, I will be intersted to hear your view.

[Sagar G]

I love India more than you could imagine. I do not need to prove it to you or anyone else. This is precisely why it hurts to see it being destroyed slowly.

I am enthralled

BTW.. to suck up, I need to find someone from japan. You can't call it a suckup when you're telling the wrong people. So stop going off topic.

Pretty rich coming from a person who personifies the typical educated Indian who thinks that by throwing scorn and lecturing to fellow Indians that why this or that country is great he is doing a great service to the country. This is not the first time or the last that BRF will get a display of people like you so my advice to you is "start following your own advices before doling them out to others". The thread is titled "Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Asha". Stick to the topic and if you feel compelled to lecture fellow Indians find a suitable thread to do that.

You conveniently ignored the bolded part of my message.. and focused on the useless bit!

Because you used the bolded part to deliver the crap that you ultimately wanted to deliver and now when caught coming up with same old boring excuses played here a gazillion times.

[johneeG]

My wife said this earlier today.
You need the head for the last rites before cremation in Hindu tradition.
For women, seeing the face is somehow an image/feeling they want to hold to after the death of the husband.

Not just women, but all near and dear ones would like to have one last look at the departed's face. It is an emotional thing. In telugu, it is called 'chivari chupu'(last look).

---

if any of these worthies are personally assaulted, they would move heaven and hell for retribution and justice. But here they are blithely spouting nonsense when the nation is assaulted.

so true! Slightest inconvenience to their privileged existence will evoke extra-ordinary reactions from these same people who are preaching restrain and 'non-violence'.

---

I think the PM has every right to continue the peace process with Pakistan. It should remain "uninterrupted and uninterruptible".

However just as we face terrorism and beheadings from Pakistan, and we still continue with the "uninterrupted and uninterruptible" peace process, in the same way Pakistan should reciprocate and continue with the "uninterrupted and uninterruptible" peace process regardless of shittt we start beating out of them, or any land acquisitions we start making across the border. After all we should keep on talking to each other. In fact due to our military operations there, there will be even more to talk about.

The peace process should not be made prisoner to the military pow-wow going on! We all want peace in South Asia!

RajeshA ji,
+108 for that post asking pertinent questions from PM. One expects the media to ask such questions and demand answers. Similarly, one expects such questions from the opposition. But, neither the media nor opposition seem to ask any hard questions at all. Sushma Swaraj seems to have even given a thumbs up to the PM for opening his mouth on this issue. Sadly, for her, it did not spare her from the wrath of seculars who are unhappy with her 'big bhindi'. She is luckly that Maino also uses saree for her political posturing, otherwise the chatteratti would have targeted the saree also.

But, in this post, you are making a fundamental 'mistake':applying same standards to both sides. You are being fair and neutral, and that is your 'mistake'.

The secular chatteratti have a special standard for Indians and Hindus: "Others will do whatever they want, but you must be restrained."

If the case is between a Hindu and a non-Hindu, then Hindu is expected to restrain himself, while the non-hindu can do whatever he wants. Not only is the Hindu asked to restrain himself, but is lectured that even thinking of a future revenge is sinful.

Similarly, if the issue is between an Indian and non-Indian, then the Indian is expected to restrain himself, while the non-Indian can do whatever he wants.

One can easily see this mentality when Jha compares beheadings with Godhra. So, when the non-Indian behead the Indian, it is bizness as usual. When non-Hindus burn a trainful of Hindus, it is bizness as usual. But, if there is a reaction from Indian(or Hindu) side, then it becomes 'communal', 'fascist', 'baying for blood', 'war mongering', 'maut ke saudagar',...

In this worldview, Indians and Hindus are only fit to suffer(and suffer without asking questions), while their tormentors are free to do whatever they wish to do.

One side(Indians and Hindus) will be held to extra-ordinary standards, while the other side(non-Indians and non-Hindus) will not be asked for even ordinary standards.

---
Ramana garu,
+108 for that rebuttal of Jha.

I'll look into those links you posted in AP thread(specially Kota Venkatachalam's). It seems like a long read.

and Rohitvats on Nagas.

Guys these is an uncalled for equal equal and does not fit the facts.

Gurkhas and Nagas behead in close combat in times of war.
The Pakis Kamandus and jihadis behead as a religious rite derived from actions of the Muhammad even in non-combat.


My point is this equates the dispicable miscreants with our honorable soldiers.
Dont do that on this forum.

Thanks, ramana
And no argues.

Ramana garu,
No intention of doing equal equal, but wanted to make a rhetorical point:
Strictly speaking pakis have been at war with India from Aug 14, 1947. They have declared war from their side. If India does not respond in kind, why blame the pakis?

---
Shiv saar is saying that perhaps Indian 'leaders' are unable to deal with the pakis because they don't know how to deal with a failing(or failed) nation like pakiland. Shiv saar also suggests that maybe the Indian babus and netas are unable to understand that pakiland is failing/failed.

I disagree with this view. I tend to think in diametrically opposite direction. I am thinking that Indian babus and netas in the top echelons know that pakiland is failing/failed. In fact, they know it in much more detail then the ordinary folks may know. Similarly, they know much more details about paki perfidy then the ordinary analysts or watchers. But, they still want to save the paki set-up... why?

To understand this, one has to understand what is pakiland's use?
It seems to me that pakiland is to terrorism what electric sub-station is to power-supply. Most importantly, pakiland is the prime-funder of all the internal threats to India. It seems to me that all the funds and arms come via pakis(directly or indirectly). Of course, pakis are just a medium for the external(and internal) players. But pakis are very important cog in this wheel. Take out the sub-station and entire region will not have power. Similarly, without pakis, this internal and external threat system will collapse. That means, take out pakis(I mean paki state and non-state setup), and most threats(internal and external) of India will lose steam. Particularly internal threats...

That means, Pakis are interlinked with 'secularism'(jihadi) and 'socialism'(mao) in India. If Pakis collapse, then 'secularism' and 'socialism' in India will also be weakened. It is for this reason that one finds the familiar refrain from top echelons of power: destiny of India is connected to pakis. Pakis must be made to survive.

It is a conscious decision to keep the pakis alive. Indian castaratti and Amirkhans(which includes the brits and saudis) are trying hard to keep the pakis alive. Of course, pakis are like a rabid dog, so they will also bite the hand that feeds it... it will bite itself. But, it must still survive, to keep the power from falling into the hands of native majority.

It seems to me that if there is one entity that is not really interested in keeping the pakis alive, then it seems to be the chinis. Chinis seem to want to use the rabid dog as much as possible before it dies, instead of wasting anymore money on trying to keep it alive.

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Intel guys have supposedly said pakis want Indians to mobilize troops. So? Because pakis want Indians to mobilize troops, India should not mobilize troops? Does that mean India must do exactly opposite of what pakis want India to do? If Pakis want India to kick it, then India must suck up to the pakis?

Who cares what pakis want? What does India want? Does it want aman ka tamasha? or does it want to provide security to its citizens? Intel guys!!!


---
Shonu ji,
I understand what you are saying, and I agree partly. But one thing: All govt.s look better when compared with the present ruling regime. But, in general sense, all of them are dirty(even in supposedly TFTA) countries. When I say dirty, I don't just mean hurting the interests of other nations. I mean hurting the interests of their own nations(and citizens) for private profit. In TFTA countries, it happens in more sophisticated ways. And when public gets a whiff of it, there are some token measures. In India, even these token measures are missing. And this present regime seems to believe in being as blatant and brazen as possible.

---
RamaY ji,
thanks for that link in AP thread. I didn't know about it.

[ramana]

SagarG, and SHonu, Lets not get carried away and indulge in friendly fire.
So peace.

[ramana]

GoP wants Mr Khar to meet Mrs Khushid

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 130117.htm

This could result in Mrs Kurshi* loss.

He now wants MMS to decide!

[pentaiah]

Since the time of epics the dead soldiers head is respectfully handed over in case decapitation in war. Ofcourse in civilized societies.

[ramana]

From HT blog. Vinod Sharma wrote it.
Looks like more DIE musings and speculation about whats going on in TSP when the real issue is Indian soldiers brutally beheaded inside Indian border by SSG of TSP Army.

Psecularism atropies the brain and prevents critical thinking.

LoC killings part of a bigger conspiracy?

Lot’s happening within Pakistan: the country’s in election mode; the Army has revised its India-specific security doctrine to declare domestic terror a bigger danger; a religious preacher of Canadian nationality has dislodged Imran Khan’s Tehrik-e-Pakistan as a major challenger to the established political order.

The crowded Pakistani mind space had little room therefore for the flare-up that left two soldiers dead on either side of the Line of Control (LoC) in Kashmir. Pakistan was ripple free on the issue that caused a storm in India.

A track-II conference I attended in Lahore on January 8 was addressed by the crème de la crème of the Pakistani leadership: Prime Minister Raja Pervez Ashraf, former Premier Nawaz Sharif and Punjab Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif. There wasn’t even a passing reference in their speeches to casualties along the Line where the ceasefire had broadly held since 2003.

It was hard nevertheless to de-link the subversion of a robust Indo-Pak military-to-military CBM from the chaos that’s consuming Pakistan.

Was the LoC reignited to internationalise the Kashmir dispute, derail elections due later this year or weaken the anti-terror offensive on Pakistan’s western borders with Afghanistan?

The ‘paradigm shift’ in the army’s approach is predicated on internal security threats from the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) and other violent groups with ethnic, sectarian and sub-nationalist motivations. A proof of that were the January 10 Quetta bombings that left over 80 dead.

The Army’s revised approach was revealed in the Pak media a few days before the armed face-off on the LoC. The brutal assault triggered outrage in India; reports of mutilated bodies of two jawans, one of whom was beheaded, impairing the forever shrinking constituency for peace with Pakistan. The sentiment favouring a tough Indian response brought the Congress and the BJP on the same page.

Mauling bodies is against all cannons of soldiery. Professionally trained armies are geared to fight, not defile adversaries. But extremists have no such compunction. They are gruesome by design.

The incident in which the raiders took away the soldier’s head was a miniature Kargil – the Pakistan Army’s joint misadventure with elements trained for a protracted proxy war in J&K.

The point to be probed is whether the beheading was the work of regular Pakistani troops or rogues within the army acting in cahoots with killer squads sheltered across the LoC or operating out of Afghanistan and southern Punjab. Neither possibility is far-fetched.

{How does it matter? Zia ullo Haq introduced Islumizzation in late 70s. The Pak Army motto is Jihadi fistula. So they are jihadis in uniform. Not a modern professional army. understood?}

Why? Sections in the Pakistan army’s middle-rung are against fighting the Afghan war at Washington’s bidding. They’re opposed to troop withdrawal from the eastern border with India for deployment on the west with Afghanistan where a plethora of terror outfits are ensconced in the tribal areas. An inflamed LoC suits hardliners in the Army and militants keen on crippling the anti-terror thrust on the Af-Pak border.

{Even the upper rungs are against the withdrawl from Indian borders. Not just middle ranks.There are no soft liners in TSP Army. Militants are their assets in mufti.}


The TTP that abhors democracy and advocates Islamic Sharia had threatened to send ‘fighters’ to J&K to counter the army’s internal threat theory. The ideological argument: extension of the struggle for Sharia to Kashmir “where the Pak-sponsored jehad hasn’t yielded results.”

Tactically they want to stall troop movement to the west in pursuance of the internal security threat the army has front-loaded in its revised doctrine. Renewed border tensions with India will pin the troops in the east, complicating Pakistan’s internal security beyond redemption.

An immediate casualty of that could be the general elections due in the first half of 2013. The process is already under threat by Pakistan’s own version of Anna Hazare – a bearded preacher named Tahirul Qadri. His siege of Islamabad against the established political order has drawn people out in thousands to protest rampant corruption, unemployment and lack of basic services. His movement got a boost with the Supreme Court ordering the arrest of PM Pervez Ashraf on graft charges.

Established parties such as the PPP and the PML-Nawaz rubbish Qadri as a pawn in the hands of forces bent upon derailing elections or manipulating results. The allusion’s to the army and some foreign players. Qadri’s a Canadian passport holder and his frontline supporter, the MQM’s Altaf Hussain a British national.

A partner in the PPP-led coalition, the MQM is attracted by Qadri’s burgeoning middle-class base that once rooted for Imran Khan.

{All three are UK puppets. What is strange about that?}

The developing situation calls for an honest scrutiny of incidents along the LoC. But the Pakistani proposal for a probe by the United Nations Military Observers’ Group for India and Pakistan was a bit cunning, run as it did against the spirit of the Simla Pact. India hasn’t recognized UNMOGIP after the 1971 war when the LoC was bilaterally negotiated. Ditto for the 2003 promise to cease fire along the line.

{Only good part of that article. Calling UN is nonsense after 1971 war renegotiation of LoC. Glad you point out that 2003 was a promise to observe the 1971 ceasefire line unlike Chindudiots.}

[Sanku]

Nothing that we do not know on BRF already, but needs as much continued focus at it can get

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 0118.htm#3

Before we touch upon the second and more plausible, if also more sinister, explanation of the entire LoC affair, it is important to disabuse ourselves of the nonsense that the Pakistan army is a professional and modern army which doesn't engage in the mutilation of corpses of its adversaries.

The fact of the matter is that despite all the trappings and traditions of the old British Indian army, the mindset of the Pakistan army is that of a medieval Islamist or jihadist army. The only difference between the Pakistan army and its illegitimate offspring, the Taliban, is that the former is a uniformed force while the latter is not.

None other than the former leader of opposition in Pakistan, Maulana Fazlur Rehman, has revealed that the Pakistan army would hurl living Taliban fighters out of helicopters flying from a height of a 1,000 feet and more to instill fear and terror among the Taliban ranks.

During the 1990's, Pakistani Urdu press were full of stories and pictures of beheaded Indian soldiers which were displayed as trophies by the jihadist proxies of the Pakistan army.

Apart from the mutilation of Captain Saurav Kalia and his men during the Kargil conflict, there is also the incident of General Pervez Musharraf felicitating the terrorist commander Ilyas Kashmiri after the latter presented him with the severed head of an Indian soldier.

A former Indian general has revealed that during the 1965 operations in Chammb, the Pakistan army severed the ears and noses and even genitals of dead Indian soldiers. And for anyone to suggest that in this latest incident, it was perhaps some jihadist force which carried out the mutilation is nothing but an apology, if not an alibi, for the Pakistan army.

........................................

India needs to keep in mind the lesson of Kargil. Once hostilities started, the international community tried to pressure India against responding forcefully to Pakistani aggression, holding out assurances that they will try and resolve the matter. Had India agreed, the Pakistanis would have been still sitting on the heights they occupied with the international community twiddling its thumbs.

[Aditya_V]

Look pakis talk of peace act as if war is going on. why can we plan an attack which kill some high ranking commanders above Brigadier level in Smerch, Prithvi strike. Then we can negotiate that the unit which beheaded should be sent to Loc for summary execution.

then we can continue peace talks.

[Philip]

India to take a "step-by-step" approach.Paki interpretation."We take one step forward into Kashmir and you take one step back!".Suits the UPA-2 who are in constant retreat politically!

Reg.castrati,many,many, years ago,I heard a recording on radio of a very,very, rare recording of a castrati opera singer.It truly was unique,something like a high-pitched caterwaul.Though beautiful to hear,there was something tragic about the singing,and something very tragic about our own desi castratti (extra 't' to rhyme with glitteratti,chatteratti,etc.,) who are endangering the nation by their dereliction to duty.

[shiv]

Reg.castrati,many,many, years ago,I heard a recording on radio of a very,very, rare recording of a castrati opera singer.It truly was unique,something like a high-pitched caterwaul.Though beautiful to hear,there was something tragic about the singing,and something very tragic about our own desi castratti (extra 't' to rhyme with glitteratti,chatteratti,etc.,) who are endangering the nation by their dereliction to duty.

Only thing is that we have to do the caterwauling while our castratti are on stage.

[SSridhar]

TFT Editorial - Najam Sethi

The Indian outrage turns on the alleged act of "beheading". Mainstream Indian media insists it is both unprecedented and Pakistan-centred. But the Indian media has ignored reports of beheadings by both sides in earlier encounters in the Kashmir sector. Several Indian journalists have drawn attention to such practices also by Indian troops since the Kargil conflict in 1999. Barkha Dutt, a top NDTV anchor, wrote about it in her "Confessions of a War Reporter" in Himal magazine in 2001. Sankarshan Thakur, a former editor of Kolkota's Telegraph newspaper, wrote about Naga and Jat regiment excesses in the Drass sector of Kargil in his article titled "Guns and Yellow Roses". Harinder Baweja made similar observations in "A Soldier's diary" published in India Today. And Praveen Swami confirmed such mutual incidents in a timely article in The Hindu on Jan 10th.

[Chandragupta]

I might get a lot of flak for this but Gen Bikram Singh going to the houses of the martyrs, expressing sympathies and standing there meekly without any proper retaliation or intent of avenging Indian blood reminds me of another Sardar, who name starts with M.

[Aditya_V]

TFT Editorial - Najam Sethi

The Indian outrage turns on the alleged act of "beheading". Mainstream Indian media insists it is both unprecedented and Pakistan-centred. But the Indian media has ignored reports of beheadings by both sides in earlier encounters in the Kashmir sector. Several Indian journalists have drawn attention to such practices also by Indian troops since the Kargil conflict in 1999. Barkha Dutt, a top NDTV anchor, wrote about it in her "Confessions of a War Reporter" in Himal magazine in 2001. Sankarshan Thakur, a former editor of Kolkota's Telegraph newspaper, wrote about Naga and Jat regiment excesses in the Drass sector of Kargil in his article titled "Guns and Yellow Roses". Harinder Baweja made similar observations in "A Soldier's diary" published in India Today. And Praveen Swami confirmed such mutual incidents in a timely article in The Hindu on Jan 10th.

So these people are supporting Pakistan- surprise suprise.

And they are staunch INC supporters also

[Aditya_V]

I might get a lot of flak for this but Gen Bikram Singh going to the houses of the martyrs, expressing sympathies and standing there meekly without any proper retaliation or intent of avenging Indian blood reminds me of another Sardar, who name starts with M.

Dont blame a community who has been loyal to India. Individually yes, he is all talk and no show and compiling to Political master's wish rather than doing some action on what has happened to his men. Imagine a IA soldier hearing his chief stating they will honour a truce after what has happened on LOC.

[Altair]

no flame-baiting pls.. we have enough $hit to deal with!

[rajsunder]

TFT Editorial - Najam Sethi

The Indian outrage turns on the alleged act of "beheading". Mainstream Indian media insists it is both unprecedented and Pakistan-centred. But the Indian media has ignored reports of beheadings by both sides in earlier encounters in the Kashmir sector. Several Indian journalists have drawn attention to such practices also by Indian troops since the Kargil conflict in 1999. Barkha Dutt, a top NDTV anchor, wrote about it in her "Confessions of a War Reporter" in Himal magazine in 2001. Sankarshan Thakur, a former editor of Kolkota's Telegraph newspaper, wrote about Naga and Jat regiment excesses in the Drass sector of Kargil in his article titled "Guns and Yellow Roses". Harinder Baweja made similar observations in "A Soldier's diary" published in India Today. And Praveen Swami confirmed such mutual incidents in a timely article in The Hindu on Jan 10th.

Is jihad sethi saying that we are in a WAR??

[member_22872]

The Indian outrage turns on the alleged act of "beheading"

Notice that? so he is no different, he too like his gov are in denial or a malicious willful obfuscation of any wrong doing. So if TSP vermin didn't do it, either it is our own figment of imagination or we did that to our own soldiers. Don't get confused with his demeanor in his talk shows, this guy too is no different. A jihadi at heart, his heart bleeds for them.

[ramana]

I might get a lot of flak for this but Gen Bikram Singh going to the houses of the martyrs, expressing sympathies and standing there meekly without any proper retaliation or intent of avenging Indian blood reminds me of another Sardar, who name starts with M.

Come on now. By his visit he showed his solidarity with the breaved family. And confirmed Ind Armed Forces are one big family.

So stop the nonsense.

[putnanja]

Army claim of active LoC belied by J&K government figures

Look at how Shukla is blatantly trying to be manipulative by comparing the ceasefire violations at LoC to the actual terrorist attacks inside J&K?? Some people have already caught him out on that, but since the article appears in a major newspaper, he is just spreading canards about the army.

He goes as far as to say that the IA is lying about the number of ceasefire violations! thoo!

[Prem]

Civilised behaviour must for talks with Pak: Sonia

Lo Aa Gye oonki Yaad, KItne Dinow ke Baadh , Elections must be Nigh

With beheading of an Indian soldier clearly weighing on her mind, Congress Chief Sonia Gandhi [ Images ] on Friday said India's [ Images ] dialogue with immediate neighbours must be based on accepted principles of civilised behaviour, in an apparent reference to Pakistan which has proposed talks between the Foreign Ministers.Better and closer relations with our immediate neighbours will not only make for regional peace -- they will also have a positive impact on some of our own border states."However, let us be clear. Our dialogue must be based on accepted principles of civilised behaviour. We will never compromise on our vigil and preparedness to deal with terrorism and threats on our borders," she said in her address at Congress Chintan Shivir in Jaipur [ Images ].Her remarks came as External Affairs Minister Salman Khurshid, speaking on the sidelines of the Congress meet, noted the "positive indications" from Pakistani side and said India will give an "appropriate" response if Islamabad [ Images ] makes a formal proposal for talks between the foreign ministers.He was asked by reporters on the offer of Pakistani Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar for discussions following tension at Line of Control [ Images ] (LoC) in the wake of beheading of Indian soldier by Pakistani troops on January 8. The two-day Chintan Shivir of the Congress is being attended by top brass of the party including the Prime Minister, and the issue of Pakistan is expected to come up during discussions scheduled on the topic of India and the world.Gandhi said that India's foreign policy has always had a vision of the country occupying its rightful place and exercising its unique influence in world affairs."That place and that influence will be significantly enhanced by successfully overcoming poverty, improving our secular values, strengthening our democratic institutions and engaging constructively with the international community," she said.

[ramana]

TFT Editorial - Najam Sethi

The Indian outrage turns on the alleged act of "beheading". Mainstream Indian media insists it is both unprecedented and Pakistan-centred. But the Indian media has ignored reports of beheadings by both sides in earlier encounters in the Kashmir sector. Several Indian journalists have drawn attention to such practices also by Indian troops since the Kargil conflict in 1999. Barkha Dutt, a top NDTV anchor, wrote about it in her "Confessions of a War Reporter" in Himal magazine in 2001. Sankarshan Thakur, a former editor of Kolkota's Telegraph newspaper, wrote about Naga and Jat regiment excesses in the Drass sector of Kargil in his article titled "Guns and Yellow Roses". Harinder Baweja made similar observations in "A Soldier's diary" published in India Today. And Praveen Swami confirmed such mutual incidents in a timely article in The Hindu on Jan 10th.

Recall my admonishment on comparing the Paki SSG beheading behavior to the Indian soldiers in a war situation?
Our people are great at self-goals.
BTW the NATO .223 bullet was designed to tumble inside the body and cause more damage similar to a dum-dum bullet. This was designed by the humane West.

[Chandragupta]

I might get a lot of flak for this but Gen Bikram Singh going to the houses of the martyrs, expressing sympathies and standing there meekly without any proper retaliation or intent of avenging Indian blood reminds me of another Sardar, who name starts with M.

Come on now. By his visit he showed his solidarity with the breaved family. And confirmed Ind Armed Forces are one big family.

So stop the nonsense.

I wish the general had been more aggressive. Nothing more, nothing less.

By all accounts, this is not the first instance of Indian soldiers being mutilated by paki barbarians, I expect a more aggressive stance by the COAS.