Bharat Rakshak

ShauryaT wrote:I am very happy to be wrong on this count on our PM. Really made me happy. All those who abused our PM on this score, please man up and apologize here!

If the Italian Marines serve their sentences in India, I'll be the first to apologize!

ShauryaT wrote:I am very happy to be wrong on this count on our PM. Really made me happy. All those who abused our PM on this score, please man up and apologize here!

really, for what.
Basically
1) they failed in their duty to get justice to Indians killed
2) allowed the italina marines to escape put of India
3) did not follow SC ruling in setting up special courts
4) made India a banana republic when an Italian amby can lie to SC
5) GOI made a fool of itself and by extension India to the world.
6) trying to avoid tough questions on its conduct in this role and also with augusta westland helicopter corruption scam.
7) 5 star treatment for the marines for killing Indians.

The least it could do was bring back the marines.
Italy did it because of something fishy going on.

No apologies needed for this - however they have to hauled over the coals for this sordid affair.

OK
I apologies that he is our PM

ShauryaT wrote:I am very happy to be wrong on this count on our PM. Really made me happy. All those who abused our PM on this score, please man up and apologize here!

WTF

krisna wrote:4) made India a banana republic when an Italian amby can lie to SC

India is a banana republic because of banana people who have voted the con govt. to power time and again even at the sake of sidelining India's interest.

More from first world country Italy
Italian media vociferous over return of marines

The newspaper Il Mondo reported that as per a note issued from Palazzo Chigi, the official residence of the Italian Prime Minister, “the government has received written assurance from India on the treatment of the two marines when they arrive in India and also a guarantee on protection of their fundamental rights.”
..
The newspaper La Gazetta Del Mezzogiorno quotes Mr. De Mistura ‘‘the word given by an Italian is sacred . We had suspended their return {only} because we were waiting for a guarantee on certain conditions from New Delhi.’’
..
The newspaper La Repubblica said Mayor of Bari Michele Emiliano launched a devastating attack on the government for the decision to send back the marines. “I now entrust our two heroes to the Indian institutions to protect them. I hope that the Republic of India is less clumsy than the Monti government.’’

The {selective} sacred words from an Italian mayor suggest that the Italian heroes have to be looked after, as a gesture of trust, by Indians. The heathens are expected not to be clumsy as well by first world mayor of a first world town in Italy.

Sagar G wrote:

krisna wrote:4) made India a banana republic when an Italian amby can lie to SC

India is a banana republic because of banana people who have voted the con govt. to power time and again even at the sake of sidelining India's interest.

Also the state govt Walkout over marines’ case

When the case was taken up, it was the Assistant Attorney General and not the Attorney General who appeared in the court and no strong arguments were made for the government.
..
He accused the State government of failing to file a review petition in the case. As per the Maritime Zone Act, 1972, the State government had the authority to intervene in the case as its purview extended up to the Exclusive Economic Zone in the sea. The shooting took place in the contiguous zone and it was well within the purview of the government, he said.

The special court for trying the marines should be set up in Kerala itself. The eight witnesses in the case were workers of the boat St. Antony and it would not be possible for them to go to Delhi for the case. He reiterated the fishermen’s demand to permit them to go for fishing up to 60 nautical miles and prevent the entry of foreign trawlers into the State’s territory.

State stand

Chief Minister Oommen Chandy said that the accused were permitted to leave for Christmas against stringent conditions. The Supreme Court had not cancelled the FIR or the case registered by the State police. The Union and State governments had opposed the request of the accused to participate in the elections. When the government insisted that they participate in the elections through postal ballot, the Italian envoy filed an affidavit saying that it was not possible for them to cast postal vote and it was on his assurance they were permitted to leave the country.{the Italian envoy on affidavit said so}
..

Trawlers from foreign countries could come upto and within territorial waters of the state but Indian fishermen can not fish upto 60 nm from Indian coast? No logic here apparently.

pentaiah wrote:OK
I apologies that he is our PM

The Italians need to be told that this is no favor to India. It they did anyone a favor, it is to themselves. By not screwing up and not betraying, they have ended in the right side of the law and the right side of India. There is no need for Indian team to promise anything other than the threat of a downgraded relationship. The Italians already know that they are being given undeserved latitude by Indian government and judiciary. (IMO, that is the first mistake committed by India). Indian law and Indian supreme court should be allowed to function freely and to decide the appropriate punishment for this crime. Hope the judges have the balls to call out the interference from the political scum bags and pull them up on it.

My fear is that SC judges will be pleased about themselves now, and bend over backards to accomodate these criminals and may even possibly be lenient on the punishment. I will be happy if I am proven wrong. I think they deserve the maximum punishment, considering the fact they tried to abscond from justice.

This crime was committed before the agreement (that allows each citizen to serve out their prison time in their respective countries) was executed. Can the agreement be retrospectively applied? What a shame. Clearly, it had sent a wrong signal to Italy. We never cared about the Indian prisoners languishing in Italian prison. But the moment a couple of murderous Italians were caught, we execute this agreement. Shame on MMS and his government. Khurshid is a fraud and I don't expect anything better from him.

Whether it is looked upon as a CT or not: when viewed in totality - it could not have been any better than this, if the Italian accused were to be guaranteed immunities on their life, or matching retribution judicially for taking Indian lives.

The way this has developed now - everyone can save their respective faces. A kind of Nash equilibrium.

(1) Had they not been allowed to go "home", there would have been no obvious obstruction in the way of proceedings under Indian law about murder charges. If the SC had found them guilty - there would have been political pressure to award the death penalty. If the SC didnt award such a penalty - opponents of the current regime might have cried foul and hinted at state-judiciary collaboration in favour of external powers. If the SC did award such a penalty, there would be international consequences - that might have run the risk of exposing possible connections between elements of the rashtra and any foreign power [hitting back in anger with revelations or veiled threats of exposure] not conducive for political or electoral purposes.

(2) Once they go home - the Italian state can put its feet down, and raise the stakes - from which by appearing to climb down, the state can extract a promise from the Indian state, that it can sell to its own native political clientele.

(3) By making the Italian state appear to climb down, the Indian rashtra or its regime, can claim that they have forced the Italians to climb down - and in order to do so, of course it needed to give some concessions. Therefore the guarantees of concern for the Italians can be legitimized for domestic Indian political consumption.

(4) The judiciary has to take cognizance of any rashtryia commitments outside of Indian territory, because SC jurisdiction does not reach outside of the sovereign territory of India. Therefore even the SC can safely limit itself from giving the highest penalty - if pressure mounts towards that.

(5) Keeping this hanging for too long, might have raised the spectre of the "lawlessness" - "sooo bad" for the good health of "democracies" like what happened in ND over the gangrape and the resultant pressures on the divine lords of the system to quickly modify the laws etc. Making this compromise quickly and efficiently saves the possibility of direct "democratic" pressures from acting upon the cozy system now existing.

In fact the whole exercise also provided some profile polishing opportunities for a few key leaders. Note that individual leaders connected to the regime has already been mentioned as being key in putting pressures. This helps in the long ongoing project of making apparatus of state power dependent on the apparatus of personal power. The latter is a hallmark of long lasting dictatorships be it in the guise of formal democracy or otherwise - which typically crash by destroying internal economies and/or bringing external intervention whne sufficiently weakened.

ShauryaT wrote:I am very happy to be wrong on this count on our PM. Really made me happy. All those who abused our PM on this score, please man up and apologize here!

+1

@Brihaspati ^^^ : ++

This is a huge hoax on Indians. Game on to keep Lady M, princeling and INC relevant.

Yes, that is what I was wondering a few pages back viewtopic.php?p=1424895#p1424895

How does one provide the reference without the entire link as above?

^<url=<actual http link>>mini display text</url>

brihaspati wrote:^<url=<actual http link>>mini display text</url>

thanks

A lot of Italians need a crash course in International Law / Indian Law / Indian Navy / Diplomacy.

Hindu and la republica has a joint forum.

Read the comments or participate:

http://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2013/03 ... -55124451/

What does one say for this?
http://telegraphindia.com/1130320/jsp/f ... UnxdPnt_p0

In a copycat incident for which two Italian marines were detained in Kerala a year ago, one fisherman from Tamil Nadu was killed and three of his Indian boat mates were critically injured when a US naval ship mistook them for pirates off the Dubai coast and shot at their boat in July last year.

But unlike the Italians who languished in jails in Kochi and in New Delhi for a year without trial, or even formal charges, no American has paid any price for the mistaken identity by their vessel, the US naval ship Rappahannock.

Just like the authorities in Kerala, Dubai officials have insisted that the fatal firing took place in Dubai’s territorial waters and just like the Italians, the US Navy disputed this claim and asserted that their naval ship was in international waters when the fishing boat menacingly approached it, as Washington claims.

For all practical purposes, the Americans have arm-twisted the UAE into putting the incident on the backburner. Unlike in the case of Italy, no one in the UPA government has the stomach to make this an issue with the US at a time when South Block wants to focus its energies instead on preparations for a visit to New Delhi by the new US secretary of state John Kerry in June.

An ex-brfite in another forum.

^^ Only difference is this incident happened in Indian territorial waters and we caught the criminal therefore having leverage. In the UAE incident we don't really have much leverage.

In a copycat incident for which two Italian marines were detained in Kerala a year ago, one fisherman from Tamil Nadu was killed and three of his Indian boat mates were critically injured when a US naval ship mistook them for pirates off the Dubai coast and shot at their boat in July last year.

But unlike the Italians who languished in jails in Kochi and in New Delhi for a year without trial, or even formal charges, no American has paid any price for the mistaken identity by their vessel, the US naval ship Rappahannock.

These two are so completely different in scope there is no comparison. With that said, i doubt how many really understand the issues here at all.

Added: Shyamd ji, it's not in Indian territorial waters that this incident occurred. It was in the contiguous zone. That is 12-24 Nm from the coast. I posted before exactly when India claimed the 12-24 Nm zone in 1976. These gave rights to national criminal jurisdiction (even hot pursuit) on these zones along with the right to 'innocent passage' as was always available.

Besides US has exclusion principle where in US armed forces personnel will never be tried by foreign courts or foreign lands.

Also recall the shooting down Iranian Airbus civil aircraft by USS Vincennes

Iran Air Flight 655 was a civilian jet airliner shot down by U.S. missiles on 3 July 1988 as it flew over the Strait of Hormuz at the end of the Iran–Iraq War. The aircraft, an Airbus A300B2-203 operated by Iran Air, was flying from Bandar Abbas, Iran to Dubai, United Arab Emirates. While flying in Iranian airspace over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf on its usual flight path, it was destroyed by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes (CG-49). All 290 onboard including 66 children and 16 crew perished.[1] The incident is ranked ninth among the deadliest disasters in aviation history. It was the highest death toll of any aviation incident in the Indian Ocean and the highest death toll of any incident involving an Airbus A300 anywhere in the world.[2] The Vincennes had entered Iranian territorial waters after one of its helicopters drew warning fire from Iranian speedboats operating within Iranian territorial limits[citation needed].

When did this Italian turn around happen? Only after the Hon. SC read out the riot act to the Italian envoy.....which led to Soniaji,our "Roman Empress" also coming out strongly against the "home run",because she saw that immense personal damage would follow and the Congress take a non-recoverable spin electorally if the situ did not change and the marines returned.One can only speculate what transpired between our most famous Italian born leader and the GOItaly,but that untold lasting damage would result,endangering billions of deals would be at risk would follow.Thus,some sort of an unoffiicial deal appears to have been made despite the mouthings of petty congressmen like the MEA mouthpiece,Salman-the-Kursed.

A famous trick was attempted by the Italian con-artists,in true mafioso style,but the across-country and party outrage was too much for the willing conspirators in the Congress to stomach,as they feared a flood,nay a veritable tsunami that would sweep them into electoral oblivion! So,as many have predicted in other posts,the tamasha goes on,with other options being introduced which will make it appear as if Indian honour has been preserved,we have stood tall,especially the chief of the "ghoolie-less" tribe ...no guesses as to who that is! We are now in the end game.meanwhile the victim's family...good RCs,are also playing true to form after their blood money has apparently been arranged.

Shakespeare would've loved this farce,where two nations,similar in character,ruled by two regimes steeped in the art of buffoonery,squared off with each other,clowning their way into a footnote in history!

I agree. Supreme Court or center in general had no business interfering with Kerala's jurisdiction. The entire case should have been handled on the state level by Kerala.

So to get back the marines India did have to provide guarantees on treatment etc.

PALAZZO CHIGI − A note from the Prime Minister’s Office said that “the Italian government has requested and obtained from the Indian authorities written assurances concerning the treatment of the navy fusiliers and the safeguarding of their fundamental rights. In the light of the extensive guarantees received, the government held it expedient, and in the interest of the navy fusiliers, to honour the undertaking, given when permission to take part in the election was granted, to return to India by 22 March. The navy fusiliers consented to this arrangement”.

http://www.corriere.it/International/en ... maro.shtml

Instead of Italy giving guarantees for taking the Italian Marines to Italy, it is the Indian Government giving the guarantees for getting them back!

What a bunch of comedians we have in GoI!

They both have to save face. Italian public is saying how could you let them go back to that place! Indians saying how could you let them go in the first place!

They both have to save face. Italian public is saying how could you let them go back to that place! Indians saying how could you let them go in the first place!

Shyamd ji, However, the former is the consequence of the latter. If only we didn't let them go in the first place, there wouldn't have been an outcry in Italy in the first place.

i think the public view in italy is 'why are they being held in the first place?'

i think the public view in italy is 'why are they being held in the first place?'

And why should anyone in India care about what the italians think.

did i say they should?

The guarantee that was given to the Italians was that the Italian Marines were needed for a little circus in Indian Supreme Court and after that they were free to go back to Italy and Italy was free to provide whatever hospitality they felt was due towards the Marines. The Indo-Italian Pact on allowing prisoners to serve their sentences in their own countries ensured that.

So it really is worthless that those two Italians are now in India and there will be a special court to process their murders of two innocent Indian fishermen.

What should be important is that those two Italians serve their sentences IN INDIA!

Indians should not care at all about Italian face!

chaanakya wrote:From ToiLet

Khurshid credited his ministry, the Supreme Court and the position of his "senior" leaders for the return of the marines.

"We had no deal anywhere. No deal in Geneva, no deal in Colombo, no deal in Rome," Khurshid told reporters here.
The government and the opposition clashed on Friday over who gets the credit for Italy sending back its two Marines to India to face trial, a decision welcomed across the political spectrum.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on his part said he was happy that the "integrity and dignity" of the Indian judicial process has been upheld.

Mr Khurshi*'s statements are in direct opposition to what the Italian govt is saying. So one of them is not being candid.

harbans wrote:So to get back the marines India did have to provide guarantees on treatment etc.

PALAZZO CHIGI − A note from the Prime Minister’s Office said that [b]“the Italian government has requested and obtained from the Indian authorities written assurances concerning the treatment of the navy fusiliers and the safeguarding of their fundamental rights. In the light of the extensive guarantees received, the government held it expedient, and in the interest of the navy fusiliers, to honour the undertaking, given when permission to take part in the election was granted, to return to India by 22 March. The navy fusiliers consented to this arrangement”.[/b]

http://www.corriere.it/International/en ... maro.shtml

Italians are saying there are written commitments and Khurshi* is saying none were given.

I think there will be brouhaha in the Lok Sabha.

ShauryaT, the case is not over yet.
----------------------
DNA:
India has bungled again:DNA

....The decision appeared part of a deal struck between the Indian and Italian governments, rather than a step meant to comply with the Supreme Court’s directions as it was on the basis of some assurances by the Union government that the marines were sent back; the assurance that the marines would not be given capital punishment was wrong; a court of law has to decide on the question; according to Khurshid, the assurance was given to Italy because the killing of the fishermenwas not the “rarest of rare” case for which the death sentence could be awarded; the court, and not a Union minister or any other representative of the executive arm of the government, must decide whether or not it was such a case; Khurshid’s statement constituted a challenge to the Indian judiciary, amounted to the government interfering in the judicial process, and has created doubts in the minds of the fishing community whether justice would be done in this case; and so run the criticism.


{Should Kurshi* be charged with interference with the courts and contempt of the court by Mr Kabir?}

The reference to doubts created in the minds of the fishing community is worrisome when seen against the fact that the Centre has asked the Delhi high court to set up a special court to try the marines. This is despite the letter from Kerala chief minister Oommen Chandy to the prime minister demanding that the sessions court at Kollam be designated as the special court. His letter makes immense sense inasmuch as the legal proceedings against the marines were initiated by this court, all records and evidence are now with it, and the witnesses in the case would find it difficult to travel frequently in the event of the special court being set up in Delhi.

It will be a sad day for the Indian judiciary and a travesty of justice if the special court is set up in Delhi with the marines staying in the Italian embassy and appearing before the trial court asspecial persons and the poor witnesses from Kollam travelling every time to Delhi.

venug wrote:Live! Italy foreign minister resigns over marines issue

Italy foreign minister resigns over marines issue: According to media reports, Italian Foreign Minister Giulio Terzi has resigned over the decision to send the marines to India.

Italy had last week said it will send back to India the two marines to face trial or killing two fishermen after receiving an assurance from the Indian government about the protection of their fundamental rights.

I'm pretty sure, the Vatican brought their weight to bear on the Italian Govt. to send back the Marines, as their cash cow and soul harvesting credit line in India would have come to an end.

Considering that the Italian Marines are in India only for the Supreme Court circus of a process and their punishment - coffee and cake would be served back in Italy, it is really a very small discomfiture.

ramana wrote:Mr Khurshi*'s statements are in direct opposition to what the Italian govt is saying. So one of them is not being candid.

Italian Marines row: Full text of Khurshid’s statement in Lok sabha

Following this, we were informed through a diplomatic approach that the Government of Italy would be willing to send the two marines back to India as per its commitment. It sought from India clarifications regarding the conditions applicable to the marines on their return and the provisions regarding the death penalty that could be applicable in this case which was an Italian concern. Notwithstanding the pending proceedings, the Government has informed the Italian Government that the two marines will not be liable for arrest if they return within the time frame laid down by the Supreme Court of India, and shall once again be bound by the conditions contained in the order passed by the Court on 18th January 2013; and that, according to well settled Indian jurisprudence, this case would not fall in the category of matters which attract the death penalty, that is to say the rarest of rare cases. Therefore, there need not be any apprehension in this regard.{This last one is not clear if it was meant for the MPs or the Italian but the exchange would have been official...so written *clarification* as he choose to put it.}

These clarifications will also be placed before the Hon’ble Supreme Court appropriately. Following the clarification, we have a confirmation that the Italian Government is arranging for the return of the two Italian marines within the time frame permitted by the Supreme Court.

So the government will not ask for the death penalty and of course they will be sent back to Italy to serve out their sentence.

>>I'm pretty sure, the Vatican brought their weight to bear on the Italian Govt. to send back the Marines, as their cash cow and soul harvesting credit line in India would have come to an end.

RajeshA - if both were kept in Italy, who would do the bolded part above in India? UPA? Even an NDA under Narendra Modi as PM? Not a hope.

Getting the marines back was a success for the government. Everybody worked together, and it paid off. Those assholes in Rome suddenly realised that shite, we have a problem here. Probably thought they were dealing with India of 20 years ago.

Had the NDA been in power, they would probably have accomplished the same. This was, to put it mildly, extreme stupidity on the part of the Italian government - and of course, in general, Italians are ignorant about India today.

JE Menon wrote:Had the NDA been in power, they would probably have accomplished the same. This was, to put it mildly, extreme stupidity on the part of the Italian government - and of course, in general, Italians are ignorant about India today.

JE Menon saar,

it is just my personal opinion, but in order to get the marines to India, UPA leadership possibly used the Vatican channels whereas NDA would have had to use threat of sanctions against Italy!

However I doubt that the Italian Marines would have been allowed anything more than diplomatic counsel as they wait their court process in India and also serving their sentence IN INDIA for the murder of the 2 innocent Indian fishermen! There would have been no Christmas holidays or time out for celebrating Italian democracy!

GEM sar

My simple question
fact 1 The Italians killed India citizens
fatc 2 The Italian killings happened in Indian territory
fact 3 The Italians could have voted from within India
Fact 4 The Italian ambassodor stood guarentee for return
Fact 5 The Indian courts refuse Indian citizens incarcirated with out judegement and do not allow to proceed on
travel with in country
Fact 6 The Italians were acorded extr judicial privilages!

would this all happen in NDA/UPA govt ofcourse unless Dawood bhai told so to do it?

JEM,

If I had one dram of trust in the intent (let alone competence) of this GOI to "work together" and accomplish any goal that's actually in the national interest, I might agree with your take on it.

However, I think there's a lot more going on in Rome that we've been ignoring here. Italy has compulsions of its own that might be causing all these flip-flops and U-turns in the question of extraditing citizens charged with crimes. These compulsions, involving the US and UK, probably carry far more weight with Rome than any kind of pressure India could muster; and it's quite possible that Italy is having to adjust its behaviour towards India in the Marines' extradition case, in order to command greater moral authority in another, more high-profile extradition case.

Today it was announced in the US media that Italy is seeking extradition of a US citizen, Amanda Knox. Knox was tried and convicted in Italy for the murder of a British student, her former roommate Meredith Kircher, in Perugia (Italy) in 2007. Knox and her boyfriend (an Italian) served 4 years of the sentence in Italian jails before another Italian court overturned their convictions, whereupon Knox was released and returned to the US. However, the case has since reopened, for reasons having to do with fresh evidence coming to light. The Italians want to re-try Knox in light of the new evidence.

(It should be noted that while Knox, her Italian boyfriend, and a third roommate of Ms. Kircher's (an African student) were all implicated by DNA evidence in the murder, only the African remains in an Italian jail serving out his life sentence; and only Knox and her Italian boyfriend had their murder convictions overturned. Typical Oiropean Oisseaulery no?)

Anyway-- Italy is between a rock and a hard place in this case. The US would never want to extradite Knox back to Italy. The UK govt however has got behind Ms. Kircher's family members who are loudly pushing for justice (they believe Knox and her boyfriend to be guilty, and to have gotten away with murder.) So the British want the Italians to press the Americans for Knox's extradition and retrial.

In such an environment the Marines' extradition (which otherwise, the West would collectively have laughed off because of the SDRE nature of the victims) becomes a potential trouble spot, and gives rise to a tricky situation. The US can point to Italy's duplicity with the Marines and say "f*ck you, you did that to the Indians, and now you want us to send Amanda back to Italy for a retrial?" It can become an excuse for other nations to justify their behaviour in the Knox-Kircher affair, and a much bigger embarrassment for Italy than it would ever have been in other circumstances. Note that an Italian official, telling the Italian media of the decision to return the Marines, made a statement saying something like "the word of an Italian must always be honoured", or some such hokum!

No wonder the new Italian FM resigned... he found himself walking in two minefields at once!

So it's possible that the Vatican's God Himself somehow intervened to bestow Antonia Maino with this boon of circumstance. I find that much more believable than the thesis that Italy's u-turn was inspired by whatever our ignoble PM may have muttered under his breath.