Bharat Rakshak

Hi: am using IE terminology because the data supporting the assertion that "Indian and most European languages belong to a family" is quite strong (though individual languages may vary in the strength of affinity)

Prem Kumar wrote:Hi: am using IE terminology because the data supporting the assertion that "Indian and most European languages belong to a family" is quite strong (though individual languages may vary in the strength of affinity)

So if I understand correctly - Indian and European languages *are* related, with the original source being India (so no proto IE); scripts being different between India and Europe could be because of Greek adopting a convenient script from Asia to represent its sounds; scripts within India are very much related, being also of greater sophistication than what is currently in use in Europe, from the point of view of organizing the consonants based on point of articulation, etc. (i.e. - a lot of hard research went into designing the script); differences in scripts between India and Europe does not knock IE?

^^ Correct.

1) Exciting development from a new area of research! By analyzing proteins from dental samples, researchers have ascertained that by ~1700 BCE, people in the Mediterranean region like Israel were already consuming turmeric, sesame & bananas from the Saraswathi Civilization!

2) Another interesting datapoint: King Ramesses 2 was buried circa 1200 BCE, with peppercorns from India

Indians were running the most powerful economy & trade-routes during those days. Puts paid to the AIT nonsense that some pastoralist nomads came in from the Stepps to give us culture/language.

3) What's very interesting to me is "bananas". Its perishable. So, if the Levant region people were eating them, it means that either the Indus Ships were very fast/reliable. Or Indian immigrants into the Levant had imported the seeds and locally growing those crops. Not sure if the latter is possible, given the climactic conditions in the Levant. In either case, very strong case for OIT

4) Another interesting data-point is that, as a Twitter handle brought out:

What is also known for sure is 1600 BC #Babylonia(South #Iraq) was under #Indoaryans #Kassites (called #Kashi), #Assyria (North Iraq & #Syria) was Indoaryan #Mittani next to #Indoeuropeon #Hittite in #Turkey, they lasted for 300 years, their language & culture for centuries more

These Out-of-India emigrants, who established powerful empires in Iraq, Syria, Turkey etc, would have facilitated trade from their mother-country, i.e India. They were the ruling elites!

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020 ... 2014956117

Curry spices and exotic fruits from Asia reached the Mediterranean and were being eaten by Europeans 3,700 years ago, study claims

Combine the above introduction of foods, with 2 other data points:

1) Circa 1600 BCE, there is an influx of Bos Indicus (Zebu bull) in the Levant. See the Twitter thread below for pictures of Zebu bulls in Israel. Zebu bulls had been introduced by Indians into Mesopotamia a 1000 years earlier (3rd millenium BCE)

https://twitter.com/Dauhshanti/status/1 ... 0561014785

2) In the 3rd millenium BCE, tin-bronze artifacts representing a new culture (possibly elites) made their appearance in Anatolia and the Aegean. These artifacts were made in the Indus valley and the copper came from the Aravalli hills (based on lead-isotope analysis). See Twitter thread the research paper below

https://twitter.com/anilksuri/status/13 ... 9772476416

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... ast_Aegean

3) In a nutshell, starting in 3rd millenium BCE (possibly earlier) and continuing into 2nd millenium BCE, there is a significant immigration of elites from India into North and South Iraq, Israel, Aegean & the Mediterranean area, Anatolia etc. These elites brought with them cattle (& rats too), tin-bronzes, new kinds of food and other tech advances. They also setup trading outposts, ports and other channels of commerce. Some of these channels might have already existed. They must have been strengthened by the migrating elites. This points to multiple Out-of-India waves of people, goods, animals & tech!

Tantalizing post by aDNA (Rakhigarhi) researched Dr. Niraj Rai on Dec 30, 2020. Year 2021 promises to be exciting!!

https://twitter.com/NirajRai3/status/13 ... 4745166850

Massive migrations from Steppes to Bronze Age India was indeed a myth. We have gathered Ancient DNA evidence now. The findings will be out next year. Thanks to the great efforts of scientists from India, USA, UK and others. Warm Greetings for upcoming 2021!

Prem Kumar wrote:Tantalizing post by aDNA (Rakhigarhi) researched Dr. Niraj Rai on Dec 30, 2020. Year 2021 promises to be exciting!!

https://twitter.com/NirajRai3/status/13 ... 4745166850

Massive migrations from Steppes to Bronze Age India was indeed a myth. We have gathered Ancient DNA evidence now. The findings will be out next year. Thanks to the great efforts of scientists from India, USA, UK and others. Warm Greetings for upcoming 2021!

AMT proponents will argue that they never claimed "massive migrations from Steppes to India". Their claim is small waves of immigrants migrated from Central Asia to Sindhu-Sarasvati valley after the collapse of Sindhu-Saraswati civilization and these new small groups of immigrants inserted their language Sanskrit through elite dominance to the remnants of the Sindhu-Saraswati population who moved further east by then . To disprove AMT in their eyes, it would have to be proved that IE languages originated in Indian subcontinent.

Yes, they will. But:

1) Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The burden of proof is on them
2) Corollary: claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence

In short, we should move on towards internalizing the idea of OIT, develop more scholarship around it & teach it to our kids. Those who have a political agenda to further AIT will accept no level of proof

Dr. Shiv's book on AIT is finally out! Please buy your copy on Kindle below. I just did.

Aryan Invasion: Myth or Fact?: Uncovering the evidence

Prem Kumar wrote:Dr. Shiv's book on AIT is finally out! Please buy your copy on Kindle below. I just did.

Aryan Invasion: Myth or Fact?: Uncovering the evidence

I bought 5 copies of it (paperback) and will be buying more. Please buy four and gift three and ask them to gift to additional three. Spread it out to your younglings, in schools & colleges and their teachers as well. If anybody has an issue with you and states that Aryans are a fact, then ask them to argue based on facts and ask them to direct those facts to the authors.

My daughter's history teacher climbed down from "Aryan Invasion Theory" to "Aryan Diffusion Theory"! That is a huge climbdown in a generation. The Aryans never invaded. They just "diffused" everywhere!!

Anyway the good part about the Aryan diffusion theory is that it opens up the possibility of aryan suffusion theory as well The aryans could have suffused all things indic and took with them to europe from central asia. Exended the suffusion more then the aryans become so suffused with indics that they are indics themselves.

Is it possible to buy from US on this site?

Vayutuvan wrote:Is it possible to buy from US on this site?

https://smile.amazon.com/Aryan-Invasion ... 285&sr=8-1

If the link doesn't work search for the title on amazon.com.

Also, after reading, lets all leave detailed reviews on Amazon (explaining why the concepts in this book are important), so that we can help future buyers.

hanumadu wrote:

Vayutuvan wrote:Is it possible to buy from US on this site?

https://smile.amazon.com/Aryan-Invasion ... 285&sr=8-1

If the link doesn't work search for the title on amazon.com.

That link is good. Let me shorten the link.
https://smile.amazon.com/Aryan-Invasion ... 08S76V16R/

This might have been shared before. An excellent overview of the extensive evidence of spoked wheels across a huge geographical & time-swath, in terracota, copper etc. Starting all the way from Early Harappa, which makes ours the oldest civilization to use spoked wheels.

Not surprising, considering that we dominated worldwide trade & were the most hi-tech civilization

https://www.academia.edu/41275548/Inven ... erspective

Prachyam is seeking funds to make the below documentaries in their sleek style..
https://www.crowdkash.com/campaign/1023 ... k5KgAE09Dw

Two OIT supporting scholars got Padma awards for 2021. Archeologist B B Lal got Padma Vibhushan. Greek Indologist Nicholas Kazanas got Padma Sri.

Fantastic! Hope they honor Shrikant Talageri & Koenraad Elst also soon.

A new, good Twitter handle to follow: @TrueShoebill

She has pointed out some key papers that pre-dated Semenenko's work but reinforce the same point, viz. the Sintashta burials were of carts & not chariots. Most definitely not war chariots.

https://sci-hub.st/10.1017/s0003598x00084192 --> by the authors Littauer, M. A., & Crouwel, J. H. (1996)

From the above paper: they argue that, based on the dimensions, these Sintashta carts would be too unstable for anything more than ceremonial use

The shortest ancient nave of which we know on a two-wheeler is 34 cm in length, and the great majority are 40-45 cm .. The long naves of ancient 2-wheelers were required by the material used: wooden naves revolving on wooden axles cannot fit tightly, as recent metal ones do.

The short, hence loosely fitting nave will have a tendency to wobble, and it was in order to reduce this that the nave was lengthened. A wobbling nave will soon damage all elements of the wheel and put all parts of the vehicle under stress.

If the vehicle should hit a boulder or a tree stump, the wheel rim would lose its verticality and, so close to the side of the body, could damage that as well as itself.

Feku Anthony, in his book, made references to the above paper but sidestepped the arguments because he had no counter.

A well-researched piece by Jaideepsingh Rathod, where he argues why the "White Steppe language incursion into Indus" has no ground to stand on.

https://www.brownpundits.com/2021/03/01 ... -in-india/

Has anyone posted on this? I am re posting it in case it was missed. Sanauli's chariot carbon dating done. Its around 1900 BC. It demolishes the AIT. The link to the article is below.

https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/carb ... ion-theory

AshishA wrote:Has anyone posted on this? I am re posting it in case it was missed. Sanauli's chariot carbon dating done. Its around 1900 BC. It demolishes the AIT. The link to the article is below.

https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/carb ... ion-theory

very nice article.

more burial we uncover faster AIT theory can be buried for ever. we need to reclassify sanskrit away from Indo European language and also do away with word dravida language. this word is lingering for over 100 years with no real proof of dravidan language, or race or ethnicity. this should drive deep into heart of dravida polity who are nothing but BIF.

AshishA wrote:Has anyone posted on this? I am re posting it in case it was missed. Sanauli's chariot carbon dating done. Its around 1900 BC. It demolishes the AIT. The link to the article is below.

https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/carb ... ion-theory

I think this was posted before, but its a good article. Worth posting/reading again.

I believe aDNA from Sanauli is being analyzed. Lets see.

Must-watch video! "Secrets of Sanauli"

Its been getting very good reviews and has interviews with the key people involved in the project like Prof Manjul etc

https://www.facebook.com/gurucharan.kam ... 9993261020

This is a great paper by Premendra Priyadarshi (from 2012). Provides rock-solid evidence of the earliest domestication of the pig, sheep, goat, cow etc in India much before the rest of the world (including the Fertile Crescent, the Steppes, Europe etc).

Because the Aryans domesticated these animals (as reflected in the common words for these animals in PIE) prior to their dispersal from the homeland, the below evidence rules out the Steppes, Anatolia etc as possible homelands of the Indo-Europeans. It squarely places India as the homeland.

Read the paper in full: provides evidence from Archaeology, Genetics & Lunguistics

Was steppe the home of the Aryans?

Please watch this list of new lectures (started on Jan 30) by Dr. Koenraad Elst, hosted by Indology Academy. Half the lectures are on the topic of the Indo-European Homeland. Its in a classroom/course format. 1 lecture per week. I found it very interesting!

https://www.facebook.com/watch/indologyacademy/

Lectures are also simultaneously broadcast on Zoom, wherein participants can ask questions at the end.

https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/registe ... 2SWWwU4FPT

Prof Michel Danino on the Aryan Invasion Theory Frauds

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/hom ... onditions.


Excavation in Binjor (Rajasthan) reveals that ISV civilization folks ate laddoos (made of chickpea, barley, wheat and other oilseeds)

Apologies if already posted

I really really really am curious as to how the AIT wallahs will continue to push for their viewpoint, in contra-indication to such overwhelming emerging evidence of the unbroken continuity in Bharat's civilization across DNA, literary, archeological, and cultural proof

Good find!

Not only is this evidence of food continuity, but also of ritual-continuity. These food balls are like "pind-daan" - offerings to the departed. Astonishing - how little things have changed!

Director (excavations) ASI, Sanjay Manjul said,

"We can say that this is the first evidence to show that Harappan people performed some rituals on the banks of river Saraswati (now extinct). Though the nature of the ritual is not clear, it could be akin to ‘pind daan’."

A very good article by Jaideepsinh Rathod, about the significance of the monkey (Kapi) and the determination of the Indo-European homeland. Builds upon the seminal work of Shrikant Talageri who pointed out how the common PIE words for Elephant (Ibha) & Monkey (Kapi) unambiguously meant that India was the homeland

Note that this kind of analysis is called Linguistic Paleontology, that attempts to uncover language spread clues based on common/borrowed words for flora & fauna. This was attempted by Western Indologists to claim that the PIE homeland was outside India. Example: common PIE words for "cold weather" animals like wolf, bear etc. But these attempts failed because India had several cold climatic regions & many endemic species of wolves, bears etc. Which meant that PIE could have originated in India too.

Now, the linguistic paleontology arguments by Talageri are rock-solid because elephants & monkeys are not native to the Indo-European regions outside of India

https://www.brownpundits.com/2021/04/07 ... -enlarged/

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2017/06/t ... opean.html

This is an astonishing paper, opening up an entirely new area of research!

Titled Indus Musicians in Mesopotamia, its author Shail Vyas is a musician, who systematically establishes words borrowed from Sanskrit into the Sumerian Language. This establishes several facts:

1) Indian musicians, music and musical instruments had a significant presence in Mesopotamia

2) Coupled with the articles earlier posted about Indian food in Mesopotamia, the significant presence of Indian mtDNA there etc, all this points to a cultural/elite dominance of the Mesopotamian civilization by Indians. Possibly the establishment of the civilization itself!

3) This is key: the Sumerian texts for musical instruments (that have been borrowed from Sanskrit), are attested to have a date of circa 2600 BCE. Sumerian language itself died out around 1800 - 2000 BCE. So, this means that Sanskrit itself is older than 2000 BCE and quite possibly older than 2600 BCE!!

4) This is also key. The fact that the musical instruments were imported from the Sarasvathi Civilization & the fact that the musical words borrowed were Sanskrit words, together establish that the Sarasvathi Civilization spoke Sanskrit!

https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/kce5x/

Also, watch this video by Shail Vyas, titled Indus Musicians in Mesopotamia and 90 Words That Harappans May Have Spoken

Talageri's latest on the Carvaka podcast. Lays bare the hypocrisy of the linguistic paleontologists, and their chicanery in bending rules to suit predetermined conclusions.

Do not miss.

Thanks Rudradev - will watch.

Do you or anyone else have Talageri's email address? I need to forward him Shail Vyas' work above. Potentially path-breaking!

In addition to musical terminology, Vyas has also documented Sumerian words borrowed from Sanskrit in these areas: timber/trees, animal names, beads/ornaments, names of diseases etc.

Many of these words were known in Sumerian and their meaning was also known, but they had no context. For example: many words for musical instruments just meant "musical instrument" in Sumerian. No one knew what they referred to. Sanskrit, as usual, has come to the rescue. It provides context & meaning to these words. It identifies these Sumerian words to mean a vessel flute or a drum etc.

This is like finding the Rosetta Stone for many Sumerian words!

And these words are from the very ancient Sumerian texts from the 3rd millenium BCE

Very, very strong evidence of OIT & antiquity of Sanskrit!

Prem Kumar wrote:Thanks Rudradev - will watch.

Do you or anyone else have Talageri's email address? I need to forward him Shail Vyas' work above. Potentially path-breaking!

Prem Ji, This Talageri Jis blog. I am sure you can contact him by commenting here: https://talageri.blogspot.com/

Prem Kumar wrote:
3) This is key: the Sumerian texts for musical instruments (that have been borrowed from Sanskrit), are attested to have a date of circa 2600 BCE. Sumerian language itself died out around 1800 - 2000 BCE. So, this means that Sanskrit itself is older than 2000 BCE and quite possibly older than 2600 BCE!!

I am in the preliminary stages of literature review and research on using AI to preserve native Indian languages - of which Sanskrit will be the first one. The idea being to create a base model which can be extended to other Sanskrit derived languages within India. What I have read is that there was a language pre-dating Sanskrit that was spoken within the Indic civilisation (for which we don't have a name), which could have been the one that spread out to other civilisations during that time. Prakrit is considered younger to Sanskrit (I am not sure, since "Indologists" seem to suggest that). I believe there must have been a half-Sanskrit sometime in the past which Paanini codified and structured into the current version of Sanskrit. Again, this is my theory, yet to be proven.

ashbhee wrote: Prem Ji, This Talageri Jis blog. I am sure you can contact him by commenting here: https://talageri.blogspot.com/

Thanks - I've asked a couple of other people for his email too. If nothing is forthcoming, I will comment on his blog

EswarPrakash wrote: I am in the preliminary stages of literature review and research on using AI to preserve native Indian languages - of which Sanskrit will be the first one. The idea being to create a base model which can be extended to other Sanskrit derived languages within India. What I have read is that there was a language pre-dating Sanskrit that was spoken within the Indic civilisation (for which we don't have a name), which could have been the one that spread out to other civilisations during that time. Prakrit is considered younger to Sanskrit (I am not sure, since "Indologists" seem to suggest that). I believe there must have been a half-Sanskrit sometime in the past which Paanini codified and structured into the current version of Sanskrit. Again, this is my theory, yet to be proven.

There must've definitely been a proto-Sanskrit, which would have been close to PIE, since India is the Indo-European homeland. Panini comes much later. He recognized various dialects of Sanskrit, Prakrit etc and codified their grammar

There must've definitely been a proto-Sanskrit, which would have been close to PIE, since India is the Indo-European homeland. Panini comes much later. He recognized various dialects of Sanskrit, Prakrit etc and codified their grammar

EaswarPrakashji, there is no half-Sanskrit... Vedic Sanskrit predates Panini (i.e. it does NOT follow the grammatical structure of Panini) but is still clearly and demostrably Sanskrit

The word "Sanskrit" means "perfected/ artificial/ constructed"... so half-Sanskrit is a bit of an oxymoron term. Prakrit, OTOH, means "raw/ uncooked/ natural"...

So what this evidences is that Sanskrit predates Panini and was formulated to capture the sound of the Vedas...Panini "merely" classified and put in place a grammar which them was applied, at a time when Sanskrut was already well evolved

As an aside, as far as I know, all the Upanishads adhere to Panini's grammatical structure...

Hope this helps

Adrija wrote:

There must've definitely been a proto-Sanskrit, which would have been close to PIE, since India is the Indo-European homeland. Panini comes much later. He recognized various dialects of Sanskrit, Prakrit etc and codified their grammar

EaswarPrakashji, there is no half-Sanskrit... Vedic Sanskrit predates Panini (i.e. it does NOT follow the grammatical structure of Panini) but is still clearly and demostrably Sanskrit

The word "Sanskrit" means "perfected/ artificial/ constructed"... so half-Sanskrit is a bit of an oxymoron term. Prakrit, OTOH, means "raw/ uncooked/ natural"...

So what this evidences is that Sanskrit predates Panini and was formulated to capture the sound of the Vedas...Panini "merely" classified and put in place a grammar which them was applied, at a time when Sanskrut was already well evolved

As an aside, as far as I know, all the Upanishads adhere to Panini's grammatical structure...

Hope this helps

Adrijaji, many thanks for the explanation. I stand corrected. I used the word half-sanskrit as a throw away term. I understand that Paanini codified it. However, I am trying to understand the base for Samskritam (as you said, and if I am right, the etymology is samaha kritam ithi samskritam - but I maybe wrong). My focus has been to create a lemmatizer for Sanskrit and since my interest is in creating a base model, I wanted to go back to the oldest form and texts to train the machine and then add more layers to train newer texts.

EswarPrakashji, perhaps then would be best to start w the RgVeda X Mandala, then XIII through to the rest, and then the ShuklYajur Veda... but perhaps you may know that already

If there is a specific query you have I would be happy to refer it to people far more knowledgeable than me, pls do let me know