The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 20 Jul 2009 20:53

Mig27 upgrades seems very comprehensive and a class transforming one at that. Impressive for a low key project!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jul 2009 22:08

Unfortunate is that India itself dont even have a .0001 % of the mineral on its soil and the country which posses it is holding a lot of sanctions and cant export.
bottom line here is the 3rd is in development for more than 15 years.It is not completed since then , not because of lack of technology,but lack of resources.

Just curious, why is it that in 15 years no alternative was found?

Other nations run into such problems too.

Not knowing the situation, perhaps it is an over-reaction on my part, but that 15 years is very disturbing.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 20 Jul 2009 22:15

Also jalad-sir, when you say stealth technologies, are you referring to material-science based aspects like RAM? Or does it include the full spectrum - which includes aerodynamic structural changes, IR suppression etc?

Mihir.D · Post by **Mihir.D** » 20 Jul 2009 22:54

jaladipc wrote:
Rahul M wrote:
while the 3rd is in final stages of realizing as we lack in one particular , which need materials for the development of a component.Unfortunate is that India itself dont even have a .0001 % of the mineral on its soil and the country which posses it is holding a lot of sanctions and cant export.
bottom line here is the 3rd is in development for more than 15 years.It is not completed since then , not because of lack of technology,but lack of resources.

Why don't we do it the way the west would do it ?Just smuggle the stuff out of that country ?

By the way guys, can we make a list of minerals India lacks? I tried to google but nothing came out of it.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Jul 2009 23:04

jaladipc wrote:
Rahul M wrote: jalad, assuming what you are saying is true and comes from people involved, have you thought that perhaps there's a definite reason why this stuff hasn't been disclosed to the public yet ?
I am taking the whole responsibility for the stuff is passed out.
I knew my limitations and what to release and what not to.Period

Afterall i am just a fellow patriot passing the interesting news to make you folks happy.
...............
Jai Hind.

Saar ji, that is fine by me but do understand that from time to time people will cast aspersions on the validity of your claims, you will have to live with that. (before your words are borne out by the projects themselves i.e

)
regards.

Jai Hind !

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jul 2009 07:04

Its been a human practice and per history nowhere in the world people had deployed an advanced fighter system without technology demonstrators or prototypes.

The point is simple, we can do many things.. and many other things.. but it can only be deployed only based on our past experience and expertise. Even the end-user does not like a sudden jump and such tech products have always failed to impress the user.

A gradual natural progression path is the only way to success., in that only the FG - TDs have to be flying now demonstrating each technology we may want to put.

If we can't establish this or that, then its a mute point just to say, we would do an AESA from scratch, and fry a raptor at 400 miles in the future.

And, there is no country in the world would share even for $$$ senstive technologies, bare open to be copied, rather would allow their tech to be used in a screw driver mode. I bet, if we invent something, we would be doing the same.. if not, then its our fault.

Lets put these thoughts into the right perspective here in this thread.. or this could be easily another chai-biskoot.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Jul 2009 03:39

k prasad wrote:
I'm mailing you a bit I wrote about AESA radars... it will need to be peer reviewed and extensively corrected by some radar guru here. Feel free to redistribute sir.

As for stealth, read Bill Sweetman's views on Stealth and LO - there are some in the AI thread, based on his talk and my questions to him; but the net also is teeming with some of his clearest insights.

Flying stealth mode, eh?

So, ............. what is your two cents worth on Indian stealth techs?

vardhank · Post by **vardhank** » 24 Jul 2009 17:06

Moderators, please move this to the newbie thread if you feel the need.

Anyway, I know the PAK-FA/FGFA is fairly shadowy, but... I believe the forward-swept wing shown on the Berkut TD offered significant aero advantages, but had structural problems that could only be solved with advanced composites. Basically, the FSW has been abandoned, but India (AFAIK) has fairly advanced composite tech, at least that's what one would assume from the confidence they've shown in making the LCA substantially from composites.
So...
1) Is our material tech advanced enough to overcome such problems?
2) If so, have we offered to help solve these problems?
3) If yes, has it been rejected?
4) If not, why not? It's our baby too - or is this tech too sensitive to hand over to anyone?
5) Or, have the Russians simply decided it's not worth the trouble, and that they can get the aero performance they want without having to go to such lengths?

And on a different note, the modification of a single-seat PAK-FA to a two-seater FGFA will involve a fair amount of changes, esp to control surfaces. Do you expect this to be an Su-27 to Su-30 style difference, or would an aircraft shaped for stealth require far greater mods? Also, given that the power needed to supercruise has not yet been demonstrated, would the heavier FGFA need even greater development time to incorporate even more powerful engines?

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 04 Aug 2009 06:58

While I am not very optimistic about seeing the PAK FA in MAKS 2009, FWIW, here is a snippet from MAKS 2009 website

Best pilots of Russian Design Office centers will demonstrate aerobatic flights and sky acrobatics on new modern fighters of 4th and 5th generations, which are equipped with turbine-powered engines with changeable thrust vector.

Aerobatics on fighter Rafal will be demonstrated by pilots of French Air Force.
Flights of retro-aircrafts will be also demonstrated.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 11 Aug 2009 19:45

some bits of info about PAK-FA

....Speaking on closer plans, the senior officer said Russia’s fifth-generation fighter jet will see its maiden flight later this year, “in November, or probably in December.” So far three prototypes of the PAK FA have been built for land tests, and a machine for aerial tests is on its way. PAK FA is a multipurpose super maneuverable stealth aircraft designed by Sukhoi.

http://www.russiatoday.com/Top_News/200 ... ?fullstory

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 11 Aug 2009 20:41

This thread has become like the Arihant thread ..... speculations are rife without an actual picture of the pak-fa.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 12 Aug 2009 06:11

Wait And See

When Prime Minister Vladimir Putin visited the Komsomolsk-on-Amur production site in May, Russian air force chief Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin apparently briefed him that the prototype Sukhoi T-50 would be flown in October or November.

This week Zelin appears to remain confident that the prototype of Russia’s fifth-generation combat aircraft, known as a PAK-FA, will still be flown before the end of the year.

“I believe that this year we will certainly take this plane into the air," Zelin is quoted by Russian news agency TASS, August 11.

The Russian air force commander also indicated that three T-50 airframes have already been built – though at least one of these is likely a static fatigue test rig.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 12 Aug 2009 15:55

Ok: component integration is complete. Whose the lucky pilot

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 12 Aug 2009 16:04

9 Days to MAKS 09.. Hopefully pics will come out then

Even if they are only Static

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 12 Aug 2009 16:05

The Russian air force commander also indicated that three T-50 airframes have already been built – though at least one of these is likely a static fatigue test rig.

This article gives a different interpretation.

So far three prototypes of the PAK FA have been built for land tests, and a machine for aerial tests is on its way.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 12 Aug 2009 16:23

Is there a new NGBVRAAM being built for the PAKFA ??

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Aug 2009 16:29

Drevin wrote:Is there a new AAM being built for the PAKFA ??

Yes the Russians are developing new class of medium and short AAM for PAK-FA which is in works and should be available post 2012

check this report

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Vympel plans to develop air-to-air missiles for Russia's PAK FA fighter
19-May-2006 Jane’s Missiles and Rockets

Russia's Vympel (Toropov) State Engineering Design Bureau Joint Stock Company (JSC) is developing advanced air-to-air missiles of short, medium and long range for use on the planned fifth-generation fighter (PAK FA), writes Yevgeniy Letunovsky. According to Vympel chief designer Gennady Sokolovsky, the new missiles are being designed for carriage within an internal weapons bay. Stowing the missiles in an internal bay helps to reduce a fighter's radar cross-section (RCS). The F-22 and F-35 incorporate weapons bays, and the PAK FA will be the first Russian fighter with this feature.

Sokolovsky said that the new missiles will incorporate advanced concepts in areas such as configuration, propulsion, guidance and warhead technology, and are intended to allow the PAK FA to win air superiority over Western aircraft such as the Lockheed Martin F-22 and F-35, and the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Under a reorganisation of the Vympel design bureau, Gennady Sokolovsky (who formerly had the dual role of both General Designer and General Director) now serves as General Designer. The General Director of the Vympel is Victor Rats, while Peter Vasilev is chief of the design department.

Another goal of the programme is to create missiles of all-Russian manufacture. Many current air-to-air missiles carried by Russian aircraft incorporate subsystems provided by manufacturers in countries such as Ukraine. For example, both current versions of the R-73 - the R-73K (fitted with the Krechet radar proximity fuze) and the R-73L (with the Yantar laser proximity fuze) - are based on the Mayak-80 series of infrared (IR) seekers produced by the Arsenal State Kiev Enterprise in Ukraine, an autopilot produced by the Moscow-based AVIONIKA MNPK, and the RDTT-295 solid-propellant rocket motor developed by the ISKRA State Unitary Enterprise in Moscow.

For many years following the break-up of the former Soviet Union, political factors slowed work on creating improved R-73 variants. However, two interim models were produced - the K-74 (probably begun as izdeliye 740), with an improved Mayak-80M IR seeker operating at angles of +/-60ⅹ off boresight, and the K-74M (izdeliye 750) with an angle of +/-75ⅹ.

For the PAK FA, Vympel is developing two new missiles based on R-73/R-74 technology. The first of these is izdeliye 760. Based on the K-74M, this is intended to match the performance of the MBDA Advanced Short-Range Air-to-Air Missile (ASRAAM) and the Raytheon AIM-9X Sidewinder. It will have an improved IR seeker, an inertial control system, a datalink receiver for target updates and an advanced rocket motor with a longer burn time. To make the missile suitable for internal carriage, its cross-section will be reduced to 320x320 mm.

To maximise the weapon's coverage, it can be fired in lock-on-after-launch (LOAL) mode, starting under inertial control before achieving in-flight lock-on. It will be able to engage targets up to 160ⅹ from the aircraft's heading.

According to a Vympel representative, izdeliye 760 is about to begin flight tests. Development is due to be completed in 2010.

The follow-on K-MD (izdeliye 300) is intended to outperform the ASRAAM and AIM-9X. Although it will draw on the experience gained with the R-73/R-74 series, for most practical purposes it will be an all-new missile.

Its guidance system will be based on a new IR seeker incorporating a focal-plane array (FPA). This will have more than twice the lock-on range of the izdeliye 760 seeker, a high resistance to countermeasures and a target-recognition capability.

Russian air-to-air missile programmes have been slow to adopt FPA technology, which is already used in 'dogfight' missiles such as the AIM-9X, ASRAAM, the Diehl BGT Defence IRIS-T and Rafael's Python-4 and Python-5. Russian work in this field is still at an early stage.

The reason for this time lag is essentially historical - until now, the IR seekers for the R-73/74 series and other Russian short-range air-to-air missiles were developed by Arsenal in Kiev.

According to Peter Vasilev, chief of the Vympel design department, several Russian companies are candidates for the task of creating a state-of-the-art FPA-based seeker. Obvious candidates are the Geophizika JSC or GNPP Impulse companies, but the Azovskii Optiko-Mekhanicheskii Zavod (AOMZ) recently announced that it planned to work on advanced seeker technology.

Geophizika was responsible for the 36T IR seeker for the R-27T air-to-air missile, and for semi-active laser seekers such as the 24N1 used on the KH-29L and KH-25L air-to-surface missiles, and the 27N for KAB-500L and-1500L laser-guided bombs, while AOMZ manufactured all three. GNPP Impulse (formerly known as NII-504) has developed various types of semi-active laser and TV seekers.

The new missile will have an improved aerodynamic configuration of minimal drag, and will be powered by a dual-mode solid-rocket engine with a high specific impulse and a total burn time of about 100 seconds. The R-73 used a system of four moving thrust-vector control vanes mounted around the motor nozzle. For the K-MD, Vympel has developed what it described as 'a three-channel gas-dynamic control unit (gas control vanes)'. An adaptive warhead will provide optimised lethal effects to suit the final interception conditions.

Development of the K-MD is expected to end in 2013, giving the PAK FA a 'dogfight' weapon of much-increased range, all-round coverage and the ability to engage aircraft or missile targets.

To provide the aircraft with a medium-range and long-range armament, new missiles will be developed based on the current R-77 and R-73 respectively. As with the short-range weapon, this will be an evolutionary process, starting with improved variants and moving towards what will eventually become an all-new missile.

The use of internal carriage for all three classes of missile, and for the aircraft's air-to-surface weapons, will require the use of a new pattern of launcher able to catapult the round out of the aircraft's weapons bay. Two versions are planned. The UVKU-50L lightweight launcher is intended to carry missiles weighing up to 300 kg. Heavier weapons weighing up to 700 kg will be carried on the UVKU-50U universal launcher.

#########

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 12 Aug 2009 17:01

According to a Vympel representative, izdeliye 760 is about to begin flight tests. Development is due to be completed in 2010.

The follow-on K-MD (izdeliye 300) is intended to outperform the ASRAAM and AIM-9X

and

Development of the K-MD is expected to end in 2013

So by the time the FGFA is ready say in 2020 we have the K-MD.

For BVRAAM the R77 will morph into a next-gen one.

Surprisngly he says the K-MD will not replace the izdeliye 760, instead he says

The use of internal carriage for all three classes of missile

So we may see a model of the izdeliye 760 in MAKS

This is good going. Thanks Austin.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Aug 2009 17:09

We will see two new upgrades of R-77 and R-73 at MAKS 2009 , RMA-MD and RMA-SD , they are close Russian equivalent of AIM-120C7 AMRAAM and Python-5

http://www.ktrv.ru/production/68/649/902/
http://www.ktrv.ru/production/68/649/901/

The rest are just future project for PAK-FA

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 12 Aug 2009 18:04

Austin wrote:We will see two new upgrades of R-77 and R-73 at MAKS 2009 , RMA-MD and RMA-SD , they are close Russian equivalent of AIM-120C7 AMRAAM and Python-5

http://www.ktrv.ru/production/68/649/902/
http://www.ktrv.ru/production/68/649/901/

The rest are just future project for PAK-FA

already posted this on the mmrca thread long time back,,110 km range for rvv-sd seems good,,

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Aug 2009 20:53

saptarishi i was aware of that previous post , was just letting Drevin know that this missile will be displayed in public for the first time at MAKS 09

Drevin thanks man , i have hardly paid attention to my post count , but 1000 will be cool

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 13 Aug 2009 07:47

I hope I am wrong on this one, but I don't expect to see any official pictures of the PAK FA before the it flies. Meanwhile,

Aleksandr Zelin: Fifth Generation Airplane Will Lift into air in November - December

Russia's air force plans to lift the fifth generation fighter into the air in November - December of this year, Russian Federation air force commander-in-chief, General-Colonel Aleksandr Zelin, has reported.

"We should fly in November, and in the extreme case, in December, but in any case we will put the aircraft up this year," RIA Novosti quotes Aleksandr Zelin.

Zelin reported that right now assembly of the first flying example is being concluded. Three examples already have been created in accordance with the state defense order for tests, he added.

Source: 11.08.09, Avia.RU

Translation credits: Roy FC.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 13 Aug 2009 16:09

found this posted on a defence blog by a "Russian" - I have no sources to back it up and I suppose neither did he so read the quote but don't shoot the messenger.

Originally Posted by moscow

do you have any idea about the pakfa program just mere make up stories isnt it,
3 prototypes are ready in irkuts siberia plant with ground testing beeing done the plan was to showcase it in maks 2009 in august but the ground testing is to take further time ,
designs have been locked sukhoi dosent want to release the pictures they can release the design pictures right now but the plan is to keep it away from the public eye because sukhoi is going ahed with the su-35 bm they want to win the brazil tender and not reveal pakfa till su-35bm final trials are over

meanwhile sukhoi have offered to project internal weapons bay on its flanker mki block 2 they want to cash in on other projects before they release pakfa, also designs are finalized for the naval version of pakfa

so please make some research before you make stupid comments

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Aug 2009 16:12

Do they mean flanker like this with internal weapons bay and RCS reduction ?

amit · Post by **amit** » 13 Aug 2009 16:59

Austin wrote:Do they mean flanker like this with internal weapons bay and RCS reduction ?

Austin,

That looks like a (badly) Photoshoped image. Look at the areas under the engines towards the air-intake area, you can see the white border!

Do they really have a SU-30 like this?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Aug 2009 17:13

austin, any idea why they are maintaining this level of secrecy ? just ol' soviet habits or are they actually trying to achieve something with this ?

kit · Post by **kit** » 13 Aug 2009 17:45

Rahul M wrote:austin, any idea why they are maintaining this level of secrecy ? just ol' soviet habits or are they actually trying to achieve something with this ?

They are trying to make something equivalent to a F22 at F35 prices arent they ? You can imagine the number of failures and what not s that are going through

like them go public with all that ? .. India has enough experience with the LCA and arjun in the area of 'development from scratch'

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 13 Aug 2009 18:27

The 'paralay.com' site which has been linked to earlier had some pics of a guy working on some wind tunnel models. Any idea how credible those pics are?

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 15 Aug 2009 01:59

NIIP's AESA radar for PAK FA to be unveiled at MAKS 2009 (use Russian to English translator, e.g. Google's translator)

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 15 Aug 2009 08:09

Jai,

That is excellent news. This is probly what the MKI will get as well. Rest assured, people will be counting TRMs @ Maks. Lets see how they match up against Phaza and western radar cos.

CM.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Aug 2009 08:39

Rahul M wrote:austin, any idea why they are maintaining this level of secrecy ? just ol' soviet habits or are they actually trying to achieve something with this ?

They probably think it would do more harm to the project than good if they release the picture early , most likely after the first flight will we see the aircraft.

They had the design on project done by end of 2004 , if they wanted to release it they would have done it in the last 5 years

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Aug 2009 09:37

X posting from keypubs , HAL Interview snippets ( credit Teer ) , gives a good idea what FGFA/PAK-FA is all about.

Interview with Nayak:

Qn: What would be HALs contribution to Indias defence etc etc..

Ans:
HAL will reinforce leadership position in Indian military aviation with development of fifth gen fighters. With this HAL is poised for a leap in development, application and management of new technologies such as:

Stealth
Supercruise
Ultramaneuverability
Multi-axis (360 degree) TV
Integrated flight control Propulsion and Weapons system
Advanced composite material
Active phased array radar
Advanced real time data link (A-A and A-G)
Advanced EW suite
Internal (Conformal carriage of weapons)
Advanced avionics, Antennas and Sensors
Electrooptics and Sensors Technologies
Open system architecture avionics suites

HAL intends to double R&D expenditure to 10-12% of its turnover and develop indigenous technologies in collaboration with DRDO and national labs and create securely networked design and development organizations through EDI and VR based virtual prototypes and large scale visualisations...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Aug 2009 09:47

amit wrote:Austin,

That looks like a (badly) Photoshoped image. Look at the areas under the engines towards the air-intake area, you can see the white border!

Do they really have a SU-30 like this?

I agree its a PS , but what you see there is doable , but practical advantage are minimalist except perhaps supercruise with the new AL-41F1A engine.

RCS wise if it carries internally or externally weapons , the reduction will not be great because of engine , straight VS etc

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 15 Aug 2009 20:49

JaiS wrote:NIIP's AESA radar for PAK FA to be unveiled at MAKS 2009 (use Russian to English translator, e.g. Google's translator)

L-band AESA radar for fighters - it's something nobody else has.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Aug 2009 21:37

Igorr wrote:
JaiS wrote:NIIP's AESA radar for PAK FA to be unveiled at MAKS 2009 (use Russian to English translator, e.g. Google's translator)
L-band AESA radar for fighters - it's something nobody else has.

I guess thats coz most use X band radar which is technically more challenging to build than L band

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 16 Aug 2009 00:07

Austin wrote: I guess thats coz most use X band radar which is technically more challenging to build than L band

In case of relative little fighter's radar this isnt true, L-band's are more chellanging coz longer waive needs longer distance between emitting elements. L-band radar arent so precise in position location but much better in stealthy objects detection. Current stealth technology is previousely works against X-band but very little against L-band.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 16 Aug 2009 02:30

Igorr wrote:
Austin wrote: I guess thats coz most use X band radar which is technically more challenging to build than L band
In case of relative little fighter's radar this isnt true, L-band's are more chellanging coz longer waive needs longer distance between emitting elements. L-band radar arent so precise in position location but much better in stealthy objects detection. Current stealth technology is previousely works against X-band but very little against L-band.

Kinda true, but at present, the X-band solid state tech is too challenging for a lot of countries, which is why they are still using L-bands, which makes the radar larger and more cumbersome... L-band is not really a breakthrough - it is a backup in absence of X-band tech.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 16 Aug 2009 02:44

k prasad wrote: ...
Kinda true, but at present, the X-band solid state tech is too challenging for a lot of countries, which is why they are still using L-bands, which makes the radar larger and more cumbersome... L-band is not really a breakthrough - it is a backup in absence of X-band tech.

K Prasad ji, what you said might be true but it is not the whole picture. L-band frequencies have a *huge* intrinsic advantage over X-band frequencies in terms of propagation distance, which translates into the radar's effective range. For a fighter jet that range could alter the outcome of the battle.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 16 Aug 2009 16:53

My translation of the Litovkin's article with some original pics of NIIP's production - in my blog.

abrahavt · Post by **abrahavt** » 16 Aug 2009 17:52

Kinda true, but at present, the X-band solid state tech is too challenging for a lot of countries, which is why they are still using L-bands, which makes the radar larger and more cumbersome... L-band is not really a breakthrough - it is a backup in absence of X-band tech.

F22 and F35 are optimized for stealth against X-Band. Not as effective against L-Band. I suspect that is why the Russians are concentrating on L-Band.