Bharat Rakshak

Strangely, the focus is trade, not defense... Or is it that trade includes defence deals?

India, Russia to step up defence cooperation
Sandeep Dikshit

Focus on trade during Medvedev’s visit
http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/04/stories ... 401100.htm
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Both already finalised plans for expanding ties in nuclear sector
Joint panel meet held to iron out wrinkles in relationship
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NEW DELHI: India and Russia on Wednesday set the stage for stepping up defence cooperation and signing a wide-ranging protocol during Russian President Dmitry Medvedev’s visit here this week.

The contours of the protocol on cooperation in trade, economic, scientific, technological and cultural sectors were discussed during a meeting between External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee and Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation Alexander Zhukov. The two sides have already finalised plans for expanding cooperation in the nuclear sector.

The interaction was held under the aegis of the 14th session of the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Trade, Economic, Scientific, Technological and Cultural Cooperation.

In the area of defence cooperation, the two sides held the first meeting of the India-Russia High Level Monitoring Committee to iron out wrinkles in the relationship. The two-day meeting, co-chaired by Defence Secretary Vijay Singh and Mikhail Dmitriev, Director, Federal Service of Military-Technical Cooperation, from the Russian side, ended here on Wednesday.

Both sides discussed issues related to ongoing projects such as the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft, Multi-role Transport Aircraft, T-90 tanks, AWACS, Su-30MKI upgrade, aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov and Medium Lift Helicopters. Cooperation between the defence forces of the two countries was also discussed.

This new forum was established during the last meeting of the India Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation held here in September this year under the joint chairmanship of the Defence Ministers of both countries. This forum was established to not only monitor implementation of the ongoing Military Technical Cooperation activities but also identify new activities for enhancing defence cooperation through joint research, development and production of military hardware, including transfer of technology and cooperation between the armed forces.




India to buy 80 choppers from Russia
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... rom+Russia

India would buy 80 medium-lift Mi-17 helicopters from Russia for Rs 6,500 crore, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) decided on Tuesday.

A senior official, who preferred anonymity, said on Wednesday that the latest version of the Mi-17 choppers, the main troop-movers for the Indian Army, would join an existing fleet of 200 Mi-17s.

The CCS's decision to buy the choppers and renegotiate the terms of the Gorshkov aircraft carrier deal came two days before the arrival of Russian President Dimitry Medvedev to India.

The helicopters are also used by the armed forces for logistical support as well as during disaster-management situations. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will host Medvedev, who lands in New Delhi on Thursday, to a private dinner before having formal talks with him on Friday.

A framework deal to purchase nuclear reactors and fuel is at the top of the agenda for Medvedev after the Nuclear Suppliers' Group lifted restrictions on its 45 members in September from engaging in civil nuclear with India.

India, Russia to fast-track defence deals
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/bus ... 26802.html

NDelhi, Dec 3 (IANS) Ahead of Russian President Dmitry Medvedev’s visit here later this month, a high-level panel Wednesday prepared the ground for fast-tracking defence deals between the two countries.“Both sides discussed issues related to ongoing projects between the two countries such as Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft, multi-role transport aircraft, T-90 tanks, airborne warning and control systems, upgradation of Sukhoi SU-30 MKI combat jets, the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov and medium lift helicopters,” a defence official said Wednesday.

The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had Tuesday given its go-ahead to re-negotiating the price of the Gorshkov and the purchase of 80 medium-lift helicopters for the Indian Air Force (IAF) from Russia.

Chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, the CCS first cleared the IAF project to buy 80 Mi-17 medium-lift utility choppers, which will also be “weaponised” for combat operations, for around $1 billion.

But the second decision on the Gorshkov was more significant since India has been engaged in a bitter wrangle with Russia over its demand for an additional $2 billion over the contracted price of $1.5 billion. India has paid an initial $500 million to enable work on the carrier’s refurbishment to begin.

The HLMC, co-chaired by Indian defence secretary Vijay Singh and his Russian counterpart Mikhail Dmitriev, was established during the last meeting of the India Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) here Sep 29 under the joint chairmanship of the defence ministers of both countries.

The forum was established to not only monitor implementation of ongoing Military Technical Cooperation (MTC) activities but also identify new activities for enhancing cooperation by way of joint research, development and production of military hardware, including transfer of technology and cooperation between the armed forces of the two countries.

Since the police equipment is an important thing now, I'll put here the pics took by me month ago on Interpolitech-2008 Exh. Moscow. I have made a lot of pics there:

igorr, just curious. which forces are tasked with mumbai like situations in russia ?

I mean if it happened in some place other than moscow/st.petersburg ? do the smaller cities have specialised HRT ?

TIA.

Tx Igorr for showing us the special equipment for police forces.It was a sad commentary on the state of Indian security that the NSG had to wait for hours before a suitable aircraft was available for them-they could've easily commandered a civilian aircraft as is done in wartime,and the manner in which they got to the scene of trouble by local police buses!These could easily have been attacked and destroyed as they offered no proper protection for the special forces.Moreover,why couldn't they have been brought to the scene in helicopters?They could've used the naval helipads available at Colaba and even landed directly at Nariman Point.It woiuld've saved much time.Our special forces like the NSG commandos must have dedicated troop transports,helos and armoured vehicles in which to travel to the scene of the crisis as well as helos picked upo from the IAF/IN where neccessary.

Earlier this year I was in Paris during the defence show.There were some public demos against the show.The Parisian special forces moved in convoy with lightning speed to control the situ.The vehicles in which they travelled and they were very well equipped with weaponry and armour.All our major metros should have similar forces with their dedicated vehicles and aircraft/helos.

Rahul M wrote:igorr, just curious. which forces are tasked with mumbai like situations in russia ?

I mean if it happened in some place other than moscow/st.petersburg ? do the smaller cities have specialised HRT ?

TIA.

Each Russian region has its specific counter-terrorist highly mobile units for immidiatly treatment for situation. For example, the Dagestan incident when some tens of separatists tried to seize the city:







BTW, Medvedev's interview for Indian TV (English):
http://www.kremlin.ru/eng/speeches/2008 ... 0105.shtml

could you give some details like which ministry controls them, who trains them.
which forces are these men from (i.e military or law enforcement) etc.

or better yet a link !
thanks a lot.

Philip wrote:Earlier this year I was in Paris during the defence show.There were some public demos against the show.The Parisian special forces moved in convoy with lightning speed to control the situ.The vehicles in which they travelled and they were very well equipped with weaponry and armour.All our major metros should have similar forces with their dedicated vehicles and aircraft/helos.

What I saw in Interpolitech-2008 is very promising. Even more promising is that those exellent vehicles and other equipement are already on service:

Rahul M wrote:could you give some details like which ministry controls them, who trains them.
which forces are these men from (i.e military or law enforcement) etc.

or better yet a link !
thanks a lot.

The links are only in Russian, so I hardly can think it may help. I can offer the relevant to issue 'Bratishka' journal with lot pictures : http://bratishka.ru/
For example, this is what was demonstrated on Interpolitech-2008:
http://bratishka.ru/gallery/inter2008/

Without precision details, there are as 200-250 thousands of Internal Forces under the Internal Ministry commanding, mostly Infantry and Special Units, skilled for CQ combats in cities and house storming. Their specialisation is may be most close resembles the US National Guards and SWAT. They are defending domestic security but also will be the help for army in the case of foreign invasion. They are highly trained and sometimes better equipped then Army itself. Periodically they do competition between dif units like this one:
http://www.bratishka.ru/gallery/smolensk2008/
For sure they have much broader possibility for arm weapons and many times they can buy equipement non-exist in Army. Also their equipement is for hostage safing operations, like submachineguns (not exist in Army), special kinds of rifles etc. I saw a lot of such on Interpolitech, which is an exhibition specialised on the Police, Spec-Op and Board Guard equipment:

This is a competition between Special Units of different CIS states:
http://bratishka.ru/gallery/csn092008/

That is typical equipement of Russian Spetsnaz:

Nuclear business to top Medvedev agenda in Delhi

Nuclear business to top Medvedev agenda in Delhi

Sandeep Dikshit

— Photo: Shanker Chakravarty

MAIDEN VISIT: Russian President Dmitry Medvedev being received by Minister of State for External Affairs Anand Sharma on his arrival at the Air Force Station in New Delhi on Thursday.

NEW DELHI: Russian President Dmitry Medvedev arrived here on Thursday with a pact on furthering nuclear cooperation capping the agenda.

Both sides have lined up a large number of agreements but most of them are aimed at covering up in case substantive agreements in defence fail to materialise.

“Both sides are still negotiating on several issues for quite some time but there has been no consensus. The nuclear agreement is the only highlight for now. But the atmosphere is better than Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s Moscow visit in February,” said informed sources.

What is being billed as a three-day visit is actually a one-day working visit. Mr. Medvedev arrived in the evening and all his official engagements take place on Friday. He will leave for Moscow on Saturday morning.

Russia is offering a new power plant AES-2006, which incorporates a third generation VVER-1200 reactor of 1170 MW. This is an advanced version of the VVER-1000 being installed a Koodankulam. The new reactor will operate at higher thermal power of 3200 MWt with a longer life span of 50 years. The sources said it can withstand an earthquake measuring 7 on the Richter scale and a direct hit from a fighter aircraft. All reactors will be supplied with lifetime guarantee of fuel. Russia has claimed substantial current experience in such projects. Its ongoing projects include building of five reactors at home and seven abroad.

Russia is building the first and second power units for the Koodankulam nuclear power plant. The proposed agreement scheduled to be signed during Mr. Medvedev’s visit envisages the construction of at least four more nuclear power plants. Thus Russia will become the first country with which cooperation in concrete terms has materialised after India was accepted in the international civil nuclear community.

Apart from this, both sides are attempting to stitch some defence deals with representatives of Tactical Rocket Systems engaged with Defence Ministry officials. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited officials are also discussing the possibility of signing a memorandum of understanding with Sukhoi on developing and producing a slightly larger short distance civilian aircraft than the regional jet developed by the Russian company. Apart from Dr. Singh and Mr. Medvedev issuing a joint declaration after their summit meeting on Friday, a host of agreements and statements of intent have been lined up. These include a political declaration, a list of priorities for enhancing the strategic partnership next year and four memoranda of understanding between Roscosmos and Indian Space Research Organisation, stock market regulators, customs training institutes and agencies for probing financial transactions, respectively. They will also sign an agreement on tourism for 2009-10.

More pics from my visit to Interpolitech-2008:

Russian response to Saudi request for mosque ..

saudi's get taste of own medicine ?

A Russian Church for a Saudi Mosque?

The Saudis have recently asked permission to build a mosque in Moscow, a city where there are only four mosques and 2 million Muslims. The Russians, however, are saying they want, in return, an Orthodox church in Saudi Arabia.
...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/ ... di-mosque/

Superb response!Some sad news though,the head of the Russian Orthodox Church has passed away.Intersing details about him in this report.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -dies.html

Head of Russian Orthodox church dies
The head of the Russian Orthodox Church, Patriarch Alexy II, has died at the age of 79.

Last Updated: 10:01AM GMT 05 Dec 2008

Alexy II took stances on foreign policy issues that often matched the Kremlin line Photo: AFP/Getty
He died at his residence outside Moscow although here was no immediate word on the cause of death.

Patriarch Alexy II was an establishment figure who restored the authority of the church after decades of Soviet repression.

Born Alexei Ridiger, Alexy II made his ecclesiastical career at a time when the church was controlled by Soviet authorities before forging an alliance with the new Russian state under presidents Boris Yeltsin and Vladimir Putin.

The patriarch was an impressive character with a benign expression and moral authority among millions of Russian believers but his personality was always locked in by the deeply hierarchical nature of his role.

Alexy II took stances on foreign policy issues that often matched the Kremlin line, criticising Nato strikes against Yugoslavia, the US-led war in Iraq and defending the rights of ethnic-Russians in the former Soviet Union.

But his role in the international arena was marked above all by wariness of Catholics, whom he accused of "proselytism," and he refused repeatedly to meet Roman Catholic pope John Paul II and his successor Benedict XVI.

The main reason for the row was a property dispute between the Catholic and Orthodox churches in Ukraine, where the Greek Catholic church, which was banned by Stalin and dispossessed, took back hundreds of parishes from the Orthodox church at the beginning of the 1990s.

The creation of four Catholic dioceses in Russia also created suspicion among Orthodox leaders. Several rounds of negotiations between Catholic and Orthodox officials failed to smooth differences.

He was also, however, a unifying Orthodox figure who helped engineer a union with a branch of the Russian Orthodox church that separated from Moscow-based church authorities after the 1917 Soviet revolution.

Ridiger was born on February 23, 1929 in then independent Estonia, the son of an Orthodox priest. He worked in two cathedrals after Estonia became part of the Soviet Union and entered a religious seminary under Stalin.

He married but then divorced in order to become a monk in 1961 during the anti-religion campaigns launched by Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev. He was soon promoted to become an Orthodox bishop.

Ridiger had a successful career under Leonid Brezhnev at a time when the Orthodox church was effectively controlled by the KGB and dissident priests were thrown into jail.

The future patriarch conformed and rose rapidly through church ranks, becoming number two in the influential external affairs section of the patriarchate.

Despite his ties with the Communist establishment, he made some efforts to curb Soviet repression, including keeping a famous convent in Estonia open despite the threat of closure.

He became patriarch in 1990, shortly before the fall of the Soviet Union.

At the time, Ridiger was seen as more in touch with the reforms to the Soviet system being undertaken by Mikhail Gorbachev than another candidate, metropolitan Filaret, considered even closer to the Communist regime.

The new patriarch remained prudent after the fall of the Communist system, ruling out investigations against church officials accused of links to the Soviet secret services.

In close collaboration with Yeltsin Putin, Alexy II used his close relations with the authorities to rebuild the influence of the Orthodox church.

Seminaries were restored, churches were rebuilt and church finances were greatly boosted by income from customs duties granted by the Russian government during the 1990s.

The lavish Christ the Saviour cathedral in central Moscow, which was destroyed under Stalin and replaced by an open-air swimming pool, was rebuilt in full splendour during Alexy II's patriarchate.

Religion gained influence in schools, prisons, hospitals and the armed services.

Within the church, Alexy II was never an innovative leader and opposed himself to liberal policies but he also rejected deeply anti-Semitic and nationalistic currents in religious thinking.

The patriarch died at a time when the Russian Orthodox church had not yet determined its preferred status, as an institution closely allied with political authorities or a church more in tune with the Russian people.

India, Russia clinch civil nuclear accord

Print



New Delhi and Moscow signed an agreement on civil nuclear cooperation on Friday on Russian President Dmitry Medvedev’s maiden visit. Russia is the third country to sign such an agreement with India after France and US.

“The signing of the agreement on civil nuclear cooperation with Russia marks a new milestone in the history of our cooperation with Russia in the field of nuclear energy. We have taken yet another step forward in the area of space cooperation and have agreed to initiate joint activities in our human space flight programme,” said Prime Minister Manmohan Singh after the two sides inked 10 agreements and MoU’s on trade, defence, space, commerce, tourism.

Anil Kakodkar, Secretary, Department of Atomic Energy of India and Sergei Kirienko, Director-General, Russian State Corporation, Rosatom signed the nuclear cooperation agreement.

“Both sides note with satisfaction the ongoing cooperation in the implementation of the Kudankulam nuclear power project. The two sides agree to collaborate in setting up of additional units of the project on the basis of the agreement between the Government of the Republic of India and the Government of the Russian Federation on cooperation in the construction of additional nuclear power plant units at Kudankulam and new sites in India and to expand and pursue further areas for bilateral cooperation in the field of peaceful uses of nuclear energy,” a joint declaration signed by Singh and Medvedev stated.

The nuclear deal will see the building of four new nuclear energy reactors in Kudankulam in Tamil Nadu.

“We held detailed talks covering all areas of our relationship such as

hydrocarbons, trade and economy, defence, space, science and technology, culture and terrorism. Our strategic partnership with Russia is a vital anchor of our foreign policy. It is a relationship that has withstood the test of time. It is a relationship that is based on strong mutual trust, confidence and convergence of interests,” Singh said.

The two sides said they expected to achieve bilateral trade of $10 billion by 2010. They will also undertake joint manned space missions in the future

Medvedev praised the agreements as opening a “new page” in relations. Another deal was signed on the sale of 80 Mi-17 military helicopters to India.

Medvedev said that the defence relationship between India and Russia had both problems and prospects.

He said the sale of Russian T-90 tanks to India and the possible leasing or sale of Russian atomic-powered submarines had been discussed.

“We would like to offer sincere condolences to all families of victims of the Mumbai terrorist attack. We stand ready to work together in combating terrorism and provide all possible assistance,” Medvedev added.

I think the trip of Medev has been slightly cold. No major new deal and even past deals have not been finalised. I think GoI is tired of Russian brinkmanship on each and every deal.

Raj Malhotra wrote:I think the trip of Medev has been slightly cold. No major new deal and even past deals have not been finalised. I think GoI is tired of Russian brinkmanship on each and every deal.

From what I have seen , Russian visits are always cold , the president comes from a day or two , has meeting , eats food , signs agreement and runs away.

Nothing compared to the glitter , glamour and hype surrounded by US President visit.

Most of Indo-Russia hardwork is done by babus and minister before hand and the main boss just pens it

Igorr wrote:

Rahul M wrote:could you give some details like which ministry controls them, who trains them.
which forces are these men from (i.e military or law enforcement) etc.

or better yet a link !
thanks a lot.

The links are only in Russian, so I hardly can think it may help.

I learnt Russian a while ago, and I can get it translated by my teacher at the Russian Cultural center. (He is the ONLY Russian teacher in India, who is also a Russian )
Let me know the links!

neelkamal wrote:

Igorr wrote:The links are only in Russian, so I hardly can think it may help.

I learnt Russian a while ago, and I can get it translated by my teacher at the Russian Cultural center. (He is the ONLY Russian teacher in India, who is also a Russian )
Let me know the links!

If you're free with Russian the best portal about Russian Spec-Op forces is ForumSpetznaz
There are many threads about organic structure of the forces, particulary names of units, equipement, history, links to the videos and other resources, books etc. Some threads request registration for viewing.

These are more my pics from Interpolitech-2008:

Well, I kinda wanted to help in case there was an article or something, that BR ites would've wanted to read in english.

a web forum was not what was in my mind ... I certainly cannnot ask my teacher to go through that

Russia disfavours military action by India against Pakistan
http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.ns ... enDocument


New Delhi, Dec 6 (PTI) Russia today disfavoured any military action by India against Pakistan in the wake of Mumbai attacks as both have nuclear weapons even as it suggested involvement of ISI in the terror strikes.
Russian Ambassador Vyacheslav Trubnikov said any action against Pakistan should be taken under the UN mandate and hoped that the international community's pressure would make Islamabad take action against terrorists, even if they are "non-state actors".

Asked about the possibility of military action by India against Pakistan, he told reporters that no state should take the "law into its own hands" as UN is the right forum to take a decision.

Pakistan and India have nuclear missiles and "any risky step might" lead to snowballing of the situation, he said, adding "We have to get our heads little bit cooler for restoration of peaceful process." On whether Russia will support India if the matter goes to the Security Council, he said Moscow will do so if India produces "hard proof" about involvement of Pakistan-based elements in the Mumbai attacks.

"I feel that investigation should produce serious proofs about perpetrators and financers," he said adding he would not like to jump into any conclusion now.

Referring to last week's terror strikes, the Ambassador said elements which do not want to see normalisation of relations between India and Pakistan could be behind the henious terror attacks in Mumbai.

Pointing fingers at the ISI, he said the spy agency could be involved in terror strikes so as to break the improving relations between the two countries. PTI

Russia wants India to seek UN support
http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14813240

Sunday, 07 December , 2008, 02:29

New Delhi: Cautioning against a unilateral Indian military strike against Pakistan, Russia on Saturday said New Delhi should seek the support of the international community and present its case to the UN after collecting "concrete evidence" of the complicity of elements in Pakistan in the Mumbai attacks.

Russia and India will hold a meeting of their working group on countering terrorism in New Delhi on December 16 and focus on the situation arising out of the November 26 attacks, Russia's ambassador to India Vyacheslav Trubnikov told reporters hours after Russian President Dmitry Medvedev ended his three-day visit to India.

"In case India provides very well substantiated proof, absolutely pucca (concrete) evidence, the UN Security Council could discuss the issue," Trubnikov replied when asked what kind of action India can take to deal with terrorism flowing from Pakistan.

Attackers trained by special forces: Russian expert

"There are enough international fora to discuss the issue," he added. "With the assistance of the international community, we might come to concrete conclusions about organisations involved in these attacks," he said.

He, however, rued that there was no consensus on a definition of terrorism at the UN and pressed for a ratification of the Comprehensive Convention on Combating Terrorism.

The Russian envoy cautioned India against a unilateral military strike, as such an action would jeopardise peace and stability in the region. "In case any state takes the law into its hands, it will wreak havoc," the envoy stressed.

"A forceful imposition of solutions on both sides would aggravate the issue," he said while underlining that India and Pakistan should not allow terrorists to derail their peace process. "Any risky step will lead to domino or snowball effect," he warned.

Militants linked to al-Qaeda: Russian official

"This was the handiwork of those who were trying to blow up the process. The process of melting the ice between India and Pakistan should be irrevocable," he said.

Virtually giving a clean chit to the civilian government in Pakistan, the Russian envoy said it was trying to "cut down the ISI to size" and should be strengthened in these efforts.

"I would not like to jump to conclusions. The stronger the government, the stronger its ability to deal with terrorism," said Trubnikov, who has represented Russia in several inter-governmental panels dealing with counter-terrorism.

The envoy also advised Indian law-enforcement agencies and take tougher measures to prevent terror attacks.

26/11: ‘US will act, if Pakistan doesn't’

Alluding to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's remarks at a joint press interaction with the Russian president Friday, the envoy said the Indian prime minister was seeking support of the international community and wanted to involve major powers in any step New Delhi takes against Islamabad.

With the Mumbai terror attack underlining the global nature of terrorism, the two leaders called upon all states to cooperate actively with and provide support and assistance to the Indian authorities in their efforts to find and bring the perpetrators, organisers, sponsors, patrons or those in any way connected to these barbaric acts to justice in India.

"It's the obligation of all countries concerned that the perpetrators of this crime are brought to the book," Manmohan Singh replied when asked what India proposed to do about the perpetrators of the Mumbai assault who he said came from the "neighbouring country."

Toxic brew of militancy in Pakistan

The terrorist attack, which began the night of November 26 and led to a 60-hour hostage crisis, killed 172 people, including 22 foreigners, and injured nearly 250. Indian authorities have maintained the 10 terrorists had come from Pakistan.

More .... http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 070943.htm

Why is Russia asking for restraint while US is OK with India acting? Which directions Indo-Russian relations are heading? A true friend doesn't want to see his friend in trouble, going by that call for restraint OK? Strange times and the way relations are shaping for India. Is US trying to create a divide between India - Russia by being extra PRO India ? Regardless, I hope Indo-Russian relationships remain strong in the future.

Russian envoy pledges help in Mumbai attack probe
http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.p ... &id=234742

NEW DELHI, Dec. 6: The Russian Ambassador to India, Mr Vyacheslav Trubnikov, today said that Russia along with the international community will assist India in the investigations into the Mumbai terror attacks. In an interaction with the Press here, Mr Trubnikov said Pakistan’s nuclear status must be kept in mind and hot-headed advice would not be a good thing. He emphasised that India and Pakistan must exchange information that will help India bring the perpetrators of the brutal attack to justice. Mr Trubnikov said his personal hunch was that it was the handiwork of those who felt threatened by the thaw in the cold war between India and Pakistan and wanted to block the process. The Ambassador said the situation in Afghanistan was also discussed by the Indian PM and Russian President Dmitry Medvedev during the latter’s visit to New Delhi and it will also be discussed in the upcoming BRIC and Shanghai Co-operation Organisation meetings. SNS

renukb wrote:Why is Russia asking for restraint while US is OK with India acting?

Really, the USA has given the go sign for unilateral attacks against Pakistan by India? Where has any White House spokesperson said this?

The statements given by MCain, Condy, Obama indications the same. There are no official statements.

Russia and US both have mentioned the need to maintain restrain and not to take any punitive action , I dont think any country will overtly say , go and attack selective target in Pakistan since the terrorist came from there , since this sets a bad precedent.

But countries like Russia and US may tacitly support such action if Pakistan fails to act on evidence provided by us.

Well as much as my blood boils and my itchy finger so eager to press the red button to Nuke Pakistan , India is not the United States of A which can go about bombing most countries in the world at will.

I dare say even US would have though a million times over before bombing any states with Nuclear Weapons , thats a fact of life we will have to live with.

The best way to approach this situation , is to work with all friendly countries ( EU, US ,Russia ) and push hard for Pakistan to act and if they don't approach the UN sanction route , this will also serve as a deterrent for Pakistan if they are planning for such a future adventure.

If we attack we just play into their hand , I am quite sure even India is not thinking about striking Pakistan , such things can snow ball and we may have no control over what happens next.

The Russian caution is what is needed in this complex situation.First,India must provide the international community,especially its mdia, overwhelming evidence of the Pak /Pak nationals masterplan of terror.That the international media is behind India for once is being seen,perhaps as many westerners and Jews were victims too.Taking the issue to the UN to label Pak a rogue state supporting terror,thus worthy of sanctions,economic and military would cut at the heart of the Paki military.Ilabelling individuals like Lt.Gen.Hamid Gul and others as war criminals/terrorist masterminds,whatever is also needed.But apart from this diplomatic campaign,where Russia will help as it has done in the past,we should keep all our options open and not be misled by the US,whose loyalty to Pakistan in the past and present is a factor that must be taken into account.The rep[ort that the US has "allowed India one strike in Kashmir",is an insult if true.We are not a colony of the US and reserve the righ5t to strike as many times if neccessary.

India must win the propaganda war first,equally important as the real war.The Russians saw this happen in Georgia,where the western media went for Russia initialy,but have now relented upon the initial attack from Georgia.Right now,Germany is negotiating with Pak for German U-214 subs to be built,Brazil is selling 100 ASMs and Sweden is selling AWACS
aircraft.We must lobby these countries not to sell their defence hardware to Pak,which is always used against India.If they still do,then we must trat them like dirt,expose them in the media and ask corporate India to boycott their chief products like Mercs,BMWs and Audis.Pressurise paramount not to buy any more Embraer aircraft.No Volvos from Sweden.You get the picture.Then we take action if neccessary at a time and place of our choosing.

Russia has one thing in common with the Stalinist mass murderer/Nandigram rapist goon community in India - both do not care a rat's a.. about terrorism in India or Indians dying but they do care a lot about India getting closer to the US as they fight a common enemy. One because its own interests are affected and the other because the interests of their paymasters are affected.

Hence both seem to offer identical suggestion - go to the UN, knowing 400% that the move is about as effective as posting a rant in the BRF. The UN will discuss it for another 8 months, pass a watered resolution that even the Chinese will not veto and Puke-istan will flush it down the toilet. And that is precisely why Russia did not wait for UN resolution to attack Georgia.

What India can do or cannot do can be debated. Expecting Russia to do something about it is a waste of time. With oil at $45, they have enough to worry about for the next few years. For that matter expecting Uncle to do something about it is also not a bright idea but the jehadi pigs have done us a huge favor killing a few Jews and white Americans. For that and for that alone Uncle will act. Expect a few more hellfires and missiles to rain down on the pigs and their pigsties at appropriate times.

The one and only option is to, at some point, join together with Israel and US to vaporise TSP.

Philip wrote:The Russian caution is what is needed in this complex situation.First,India must provide the international community,especially its mdia, overwhelming evidence of the Pak /Pak nationals masterplan of terror.That the international media is behind India for once is being seen,perhaps as many westerners and Jews were victims too.Taking the issue to the UN to label Pak a rogue state supporting terror,thus worthy of sanctions,economic and military would cut at the heart of the Paki military.Ilabelling individuals like Lt.Gen.Hamid Gul and others as war criminals/terrorist masterminds,whatever is also needed.But apart from this diplomatic campaign,where Russia will help as it has done in the past,we should keep all our options open and not be misled by the US,whose loyalty to Pakistan in the past and present is a factor that must be taken into account.The rep[ort that the US has "allowed India one strike in Kashmir",is an insult if true.We are not a colony of the US and reserve the righ5t to strike as many times if neccessary.

India must win the propaganda war first,equally important as the real war.The Russians saw this happen in Georgia,where the western media went for Russia initialy,but have now relented upon the initial attack from Georgia.Right now,Germany is negotiating with Pak for German U-214 subs to be built,Brazil is selling 100 ASMs and Sweden is selling AWACS
aircraft.We must lobby these countries not to sell their defence hardware to Pak,which is always used against India.If they still do,then we must trat them like dirt,expose them in the media and ask corporate India to boycott their chief products like Mercs,BMWs and Audis.Pressurise paramount not to buy any more Embraer aircraft.No Volvos from Sweden.You get the picture.Then we take action if neccessary at a time and place of our choosing.

Philip,
I too have been calling for a UN Resolution (post 1 and post 2).

There is sympathy in the international community at the moment for India. If India can establish credible evidence for an international audience, it will be difficult for the many countries to side openly with Pakistan and block such a resolution. Every body in the international community is aware that Pakistan is becoming a failed state with a big terror infrastructure intact there and would be willing to create some UN process tailor-cut for Pakistan to address the situation there. This is effectively curtailing Pakis' sovereignty.

This would be useful in the next terror strikes on India, because India through this UN Process may have a mechanism and a legal right to intervene in Pakistan's lawlessness.

Tactically, we should be willing to go ahead with a weak resolution if it seems there is a better chance that it passes. I am however sure, that once the culpability of Pakistan has been accepted, it will be possible to throw in additional constraints on Pakistan, including an arms embargo.

However India should never make our actions contingent upon UN Resolutions. It may be accepted or it may not be accepted. India however has been attacked and has an intrinsic right to defend herself.

For those in Pakistan, who have been dreaming of a re-hyphenation with India, they should understand, that that would never happen, as Pakistan would be known as a terrorist state by the UN. If that is not a slap on the H&D of Pakistan, then I don't know what is.

India, Russia regain elan of friendship

K Bhadarkumar in atimes dissecting the Indo-russian joint declaration after the medvedev visit.

vsudhir wrote:India, Russia regain elan of friendship

K Bhadarkumar in atimes dissecting the Indo-russian joint declaration after the medvedev visit.

It is promising to see India not putting all its eggs in one basket.

India knows that USA is extremely unpopular in the Muslim West Asia, Russia and not the best friend of China. That leaves very few options for USA and NATO in Asia. So USA would like to keep close to India anyway, not to lose its last toe-hold on strategic sympathy.

Now is the time to develop the other side of the scales, and influence the interests of the other side.

Pakistan in which case does not get any side.

The last time JLN was advised by the British to seek UN help, and this time its Medveyev giving the same advise! This too will just end up causing more problems for our children in the future, just like JLN's UN approach did for us.

The UN is not going to sanction a war against pakistan. Indeed I fear this approach may even limit India's options, since there is nothing preventing a UN resolution binding India not to attack pakistan tagged along with a UN resolution condemning pakistan. Moreover with China as a permanent member of the Security Council, its certain there will be no UN ultimatum against pakistan. IMO all it would do is dilute and water down the rage. At this point what is wrong with a little rage against the gnat?

Furthermore any country which needs permission from others to defend itself should not be calling itself a free democracy. India's leaders should be answerable to only to India's voters.

RajeshA wrote:

India knows that USA is extremely unpopular in the Muslim West Asia, Russia and not the best friend of China. That leaves very few options for USA and NATO in Asia.

Not sure if that can be stated unconditionally, that would depend on the USA/NATO plans for Afghanisthan -- reading reports of NATO soldiers just drinking beer and watching TV, it seems clear that NATO/US are only interested in a denial of use of strategic territory w.r.t. Russia. They are not actively trying to regain control and use of that area. OTOH, China and Russia will be interested in a stable central Asia, as they are in the neighbourhood and would be affected by turmoil....the Europeans and Amir khans are fine with creating chaos in the region because their power is being projected from a greater distance, and therefore less susceptible to blowback. IMO, this is also why Russia has created a point of power projection in Venezuela in the US's backyard or maybe that is just a warning to the US to keep off the CAR (not that the US will back off).

JMTs etc.

I have never quite been convinced about why we need UN permission to punish Pakistan for an act of terror that is showing every characteristic of having been planned and organised there, and executed with the support of the Pakistani Army and Navy as well as its intelligence service. Will UN permission make things easier in terms of the action we have to take? Will it give us further "legitimacy"?

Why, EXACTLY, should we go to the UN - at a time when we have no real control over the outcome, and at best can exercise influence through third parties who have their own interests to consider and will consider them, no matter what predicament India faces?

To label Pakistan as a "terrorist state"? This is a move the P5 should take of their own accord, given the more than ample evidence that has accumulated against Pakistan... It has nothing to do with India, per se. It is a matter of global interest.

At the end of the day, these attacks are rehearsals for what will happen elsewhere. They will be modified, but it will happen.

Immediately after 9/11 it was pointed out on BR that - in the final analysis - an effective victory over Islam-based terrorism cannot be achieved without a complete internalisation, on the part of those fighting this war, of the true scope and ambition of the Pakistani military - which was concretized during the war against the Soviets. They really believe that they are the nucleus of a future worldwide caliphate. Even the names of key mentors were mentioned, almost identical to the four being bandied about now. I don't know why they missed out Asad Durrani, maybe because he is more CNN friendly.

The objective of the Jihadis let loose on the world is merely the reflection of that ambition. While some Pakistani generals may have mild reservations, so long as the ambition can be furthered with a minimal cost to them personally and to their control over the state and people which facilitates their goal, we will be merely applying band-aid where surgery is needed.

The only wild-card, so to speak, in this situation is the viability of the principal-agent relationship between the generals and the jihadis. So far, it seems to have been manageable - give or take an attack here or there. But it is in the nature of the generals and the jihadis to keep pushing. Whether the generals will continue to be successful in merely keep the pot simmering without flowing over remains to be seen. The idiocy on our part, and that of the other major powers, is in apparently not recognising - or if that, not acting upon - the reality that we need to cut the hand setting the fire.

We have to grant, however, that it is difficult for the P5 to work towards that end, because if that is done - the main beneficiary will be India, just as it is the main victim now. Who will want to give up the leverage, such as it is, that they can exercise over India through a controllable rogue?

JEM,Bush Sr. whom I hold in high regard,realised the need for a UN mandate to kick Saddam out of Kuwait.This allowed him to organise an international military coalition force.Bush the son did not when he invaded Iraq and suffered the consequences.Moreover,the international community must be given evidence of Pak's complicity.We want the global community to also impose sanctions on Pak in equipping its forces with aid,arms and weaponry.Its military leadership should become international pariahs.Hamid Gul must be extradited along with the other conspirators.Mrs.G. first went on an international campaign to educate the world about Pak's atrocities in E-Pak before the war.The war was lost for Pak as it had already lost the propaganda war.This war must also be won.Notwithstanding this fact,as you say,when a nation is attacked with such brazen impunity,we really need no UN mandate to strike back.When we do,the world must undberstand that we hit back after exhausting all other means.

Moscow: Drug baron Dawood Ibrahim was directly involved in last month's terror attacks in Mumbai, according to a top Russian official.

"The gathered inputs testify that infamous regional drug baron Dawood Ibrahim had provided his logistics network for preparing and carrying out the Mumbai terror attacks by the militants," Director of Russia's federal anti-narcotics service Viktor Ivanov said.

In an interview to the government daily 'Rossiskaya Gazeta' published today Ivanov said the Mumbai mayhem is a 'burning example' of the use of illegal drug trafficking network for perpetrating terrorism.

"The super profits of the narco-mafia through Afghan heroin trafficking have become a powerful source of financing organised crime and terrorist networks, destabilising the political systems, including in Central Asia and Caucasus," Ivanov said.

Dawood Ibrahim sought by India for 1993 Mumbai serial blasts, is said to be among the list of wanted persons sent to Islamabad in the wake of last month's Mumbai terror attacks organised by Lashkar-e-Taiba, 'Rossiskaya Gazeta' noted.

© Copyright 2008 PTI. All rights reserved.

http://news.in.msn.com/international/ar ... id=1721690

Surely now with the Russian intel input,we can ask Russia to impose sanctions on military supplies to Pak?AS each nation makes statements like these from official or media sources,the GOI should follow up with these govts. to impose sanctions upon Pak,unless the guilty are handed over to India and the terror camps destroyed,though frankly,with so much of Wahabi fundamental Islamisation that the Saudis have financed in pak ,there is little chance of this happening.

Bush Sr. whom I hold in high regard,realised the need for a UN mandate to kick Saddam out of Kuwait.
...
Moreover,the international community must be given evidence of Pak's complicity.We want the global community to also impose sanctions on Pak in equipping its forces with aid,arms and weaponry.Its military leadership should become international pariahs.
...
Mrs.G. first went on an international campaign to educate the world about Pak's atrocities in E-Pak before the war.

There are two very significant differences between Bush Sr. position then and India's now.

1. Everyone agreed the invasion of Kuwait was a naked land-grab and no one wanted Saddam with that much control over the world's oil. A UN mandate was certain, given Russia's weak position under Yeltsin, and the European P5 members in agreement. There was never any doubt a UN mandate would be granted.

2. The US could always veto any decision unfavourable to it at any time.

What does the provision of evidence against pakistan in the UN get us? It is certain any severe sanctions WILL be vetoed by China. They are not going to allow their boy to suffer significant restrictions.

Furthermore, India is not a P5 member with veto power. So what happens if any sort of resolution against pakistan is tagged alongwith a binding resolution on India to never attack pakistan without a UN mandate? This is a scenario which could crop up.

We cannot control how the UN will vote and what factors will be put into play during the discussions, and what power games will be played prior to a UN vote. We cannot even reject the outcome of such a vote if it is not to our liking. It will be binding on us if we are ever foolish enough to let other countries into our decision making.

I agree with you about the propaganda war in 1970/71, but remember Mrs. G. did learn from her father's mistake and never approached the UN for any sort of mandate. It was only after the war started that the UN got involved, that too because the US introduced a resolution and not because India brought it to the UN. She knew she would be vetoed by the US and China if she ever let it go before the security council before taking action. Like her, if we think we need international support, we should do it like she did it, with individual countries without ever approaching the UN. Let others approach the UN asking for the war to stop (if it comes to that), rather than asking for permission to start a war.

Philip wrote:Surely now with the Russian intel input,we can ask Russia to impose sanctions on military supplies to Pak?AS each nation makes statements like these from official or media sources,the GOI should follow up with these govts. to impose sanctions upon Pak,unless the guilty are handed over to India and the terror camps destroyed,though frankly,with so much of Wahabi fundamental Islamisation that the Saudis have financed in pak ,there is little chance of this happening.

Ha!! Expecting the Indian Govt to do tough talking with other nation Govts, sorry Philip, will never happen....India is 2 scared of breaking its "Mr Nice" image from the world-over....