Non-Western Worldview

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devesh
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by devesh »

here's a commentary on Fukuyama's latest book "Foundations of Political Order." I haven't read the book, but there is a general outline in the link below.

http://www.slate.com/id/2292546/
By contrast, Fukuyama suggests, we might look at ancient India. Here, where warfare played a smaller role, the rise of Brahmin priests embedded kings in tangled networks of religious obligations—but at the price of preventing governments from centralizing enough power to function properly. India and China, he insists, are not parts of an undifferentiated "orient." Each followed a different path of state formation, getting one part of the package right but the rest of it wrong; and the consequences of these differences persist to this day, in China's over-mighty state and India's chronic chaos.
Fukuyama is content to leave a question mark over the reasons for Europe's uniqueness, emphasizing "historically contingent circumstances of European development" and "the extreme fragmentation of power in Europe."
what fragmentation of power??? this is news to me. Europe was the classic example of entrenched aristocratic power. war after war were fought b/c few people had the power to direct entire societies into war.......what is Fukuyama talking about?
Marx and Lenin, instead decided that non-European societies must be shocked out of their slumber by revolutionary vanguards that would shatter the old, fossilized order, at whatever cost.
this is another myth....Marx couldn't give a sh** about Asia. he was only interested in applying his theories to Europe. Asia ruled by colonial powers was just fine with him b/c he believed they weren't worthy of self rule.

what is it with western historians trying to push Marxism on to the shoulders of the East and Asia??? it is a European product. born and bred in Europe. and these idiots interpret it as if it was created in Asia!!!

also, in analyzing India, the impact of British rule is completely ignored. how the British disrupted, and threw into chaos the various administrative and economic structures of India is not even discussed at all. it is as if these things don't even matter in creating modern India....India's present situation is blamed on Indian society's 'lack of imagination!' once again the Brahmins are blamed for "meddling" in state affairs! and of course the brainwashing of Brahmins into becoming colonial front men is not even spoken of, b/c that was only enlightening the racist Brahmins, after all.....

one thing is clear. western historians will never consider the effects of British rule on India. Britain's systematic efforts of undoing India's economic might are insidiously ignored....

and recently, have been reading a lot of articles "analyzing" the rise of Europe. there seems to be a lot of interest in figuring out "why" Europe became developed.....they are forming the narrative b/c they want to implement their interpretation in Asia.....so, basically they are saying look this is why Europe advanced, so this is how you should do it too.....another form of Macaulay'ism. the imperialists telling us how we should "enlighten" ourselves.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by brihaspati »

Europe's primary point of departure was realizing that they themselves were not good enough to produce all that they desired, and in order to satisfy this desire they needed to go out and control the places and people who did produce what they desired.

They also figured out that the key to ensuring such a control over production and supply, was the ability to impose physical hegemony, or at least the proof that such physically coercive hegemony would be unhesitatingly used in order to enforce that control.

It was the capacity to successfully wage war, that drove European expansion into global control of trade and production. More than success, it was the political realization that war and military dominance created space for projection of economic power and economic control, and no shyness or coyness in acknowledging it and carrying out preparations to enforce that line.

China in the modern Communist phase took several steps - which made it attractive for USA to invest in, politically and international power-terms wise, which led to greater economic ties. Throughout it showed its willingness to play the military hand, and a tactical shrewdness to play ball against perceived US enemies. Right from the crossing over the rivers from north to the south in the 1948-1949 stage, to the Korean War, and subsequent south-East Asian moves, or the incursion into Tibet and India - PRC has always played the military card. It has rarely shown hesitation in going after territorial and influence expansion moves - with detailed planning and military moves made under complete cover of diplomatic deception.

China's "strong state" may seem "incomplete" to Fukuyama, but that was also true of Europe. In trying to become a strong state, it diluted and drove out religion - which brought in a reinvention of religiosity to fill in the blanks - in the form of similar, fanatical, unreasoning, and closed-door devotion to Nazism or Communism. These are "religions" too - in the classic ME and European organized form. The same ills fundamentally plague both China and Europe, only Fukuyama may not be in a position to acknowledge that.

As for India, who says it is not centralized enough! We have a dynasty around which the core of the rashtra now revolves. The "priesthood" of classical "Brahmins" are gone [even if their replacements are uncannily drawn from similar birth pool]- replaced by a new priesthood of academics/experts/eminent historians/civil society champions/juridical luminaries - who are immensely devoted and entwined with this "centralization". If that is not a balanced centralization- strong state-priesthood combination, what is!
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by Sanku »

Connections between India and South America

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howler_Monkey_Gods
devesh
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by devesh »

Crossposted from Geopolitics thread:

__________________________________________
^^^

Niall Ferguson is an imperialist with deep takleef for the "trauma" that Empire suffered in the last century. he keeps fantasizing about British glory and about how British shouldn't be ashamed of it.

also, don't buy the non sense about America intervening and destroying UK's empire. had American not intervened, and Germany prevailed in WWI, Empire would have met a quick and ruthless death with the British standards of living reduced to a pittance within 20 years of WWI.

remember that Germany made peace with Russia right before America intervened. what you had was a situation where Europe, all the way from Franco-German border to the Far East, could have been integrated in a "common market." in the Russo-German peace, trade and economy were major factors and Germany assured Russia that it wouldn't be held hostage and in turn Russia assured Germany that they would be given a share in Central Asian economies. had this happened, British India would have collapsed like dominoes.

Russia and British India were fighting for influence and power over CA for several decades by then. had Germany and Russia decided to build a pan-Eurasian network, Britain's power would have been crushed simply b/c British had no control or even temperament for controlling overland routes. Russia was dominant in that. and Germany had invested heavily in trans-land routes.

Britain's hold on India would have crumbled b/c under the new circumstances the British way of administration and economic thinking were completely unsuitable. and the indigenous Indian thinking would have fit right in place, b/c we had done the same in the past for thousands of years. CA, Afghanistan, Iran, were all part of our trading and influence networks.

the greatest tragedy of the 20th century was not the Russian Revolution (advent of Communism), as the West would like us to believe, but American intervention in WWI. who knows what a Russo-German Eurasia could have been like. Russia itself might have become more open or economically productive without resorting to Stalinist dictatorship. had America not intervened, rise of Hitler, WWII genocides, consequent destruction of Europe, emergence of bi-polar "locked in" world, the continuation of Western colonial domination of Asia and Latam for several more decades (through proxy wars), etc, all or even a few of them could have been avoided.

American intervention in WWI is the greatest tragedy of the past 100 years. and the British had a clear hand in this. they used many levers of influence to goad US into war. and Woodrow Wilson, the naive idiot, fell for it. the propaganda about American intervention destroying UK's empire is a myth created to cloak the truth in half-truths and carefully constructed fallacies that have a very convincing appeal on the surface.

added on advice from ramana garu,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram

the above is a primer on the Zimmerman telegram, which supposedly was a correspondence between Germany and Mexico, that moved US decisively into war. British intel has always played convoluted games and this could be one of those. the sheer megalomania of the British imperialists is astounding and terrifying. if ever there was a nation full of power hungry mad men, it surely must rank second compared to UK.

the truth might never come out, but there are interesting events that happened during the whole Zimmerman fiasco.
Last edited by devesh on 02 Jun 2011 23:01, edited 1 time in total.
svinayak
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by svinayak »

How crimean war shaped India and war in 1857
This war has a bearing on how Indians started view the British in the 19th century and becoming aware of the weakness of the British people.

Image


http://www.salon.com/books/2011/05/18/c ... index.html

"The Crimean War": The forgotten conflict that changed history
A new book uncovers the causes and momentous consequences of the bloody Crimean War
Viewed from this distance, across the killing fields of the First and Second World Wars, the Crimean War of 1853-1856 seems a rather desultory and unnecessary conflict -- an accidental war fought by bungling combatants in an obscure and strategically unimportant corner of southeast Europe and southern Russia. We remember the melodrama -- the epic blunder of the Charge of the Light Brigade, Florence Nightingale and her lamp. We forget the rationale for it all, and what, if anything, it amounted to.

This impressively detailed book by the British historian Orlando Figes should help change that. Stepping, without an apparent unease, outside his usual area of expertise -- Soviet-era Russia -- Figes, the author of "The Whisperers" and "A People's Tragedy," gives back to the conflict its meaning and its wider historical importance.
Mixing exhaustive diplomatic analysis (the first shot isn't fired in the book until about a third of the way through) with acute strategic awareness, he makes clear just how pivotal this odd and disjointed little conflict was in the volatile history of 19th-century Europe.

Though it wasn't actually that little. A remarkable 750,000 soldiers died on the plains and hills of the western Crimea, the Caucasus, and the Danube basin in pursuit of great-power rivalry, the vast majority of them from disease and illness. (Compare that to the 620,000-odd soldiers who died in the American Civil War.) Russia alone, which through the belligerence of its emperor Nicholas I found itself facing a strange alliance of France, Britain, Turkey, and the Italian kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia, lost anywhere between 400,000 and 600,000 men, upward of 127,000 of them buried in mass graves around the besieged port of Sevastopol.

The level of suffering endured by the combatants, too, was appalling. Soldiers on both sides were treated disgracefully by their superiors. The rations of dry bread handed out to starving Russian soldiers early in the campaign were so devoid of nutrition, commented one French officer, that not even rats or dogs would eat them; of the 4,000 Turkish troops who fought at the battle of Balaklava in October 1854, half had died by the end of the year from malnutrition. Cholera swept through all the armies, and the conditions for ordinary British soldiers both at the freezing front (they initially had no winter clothes) and in the stinking and unsanitary hospitals in the rear became a national scandal back in London.

Though the spark for war was provided by a dispute between France and Russia over sovereignty of holy sites in Jerusalem (both saw themselves as defenders of their faiths), the causes went much deeper, involving overweening Russian ambitions in Europe, British advances in the Mediterranean and India, a resurgent France under Napoleon III, and a collapsing Ottoman empire. Venturing back to the 1820s, Figes deftly traces the growing tension between Russia and its future enemies and the complex maneuverings for ascendancy.

But if the causes are clear to Figes, the military aims of individual countries were not always clear to the combatants themselves. After the initial declaration of war, the allies spent months negotiating about where exactly they should fight, and what exactly they wanted to achieve. In essence, the war was about protecting a collapsing Ottoman empire from the attentions of the Russians, but Britain, whipped into a frenzy by its anti-Slavic press and the bellicose politician Lord Palmerston, wanted nothing less than the emasculation of its enemy. There was talk of giving Russian-occupied Finland to Sweden, the Tsar's Baltic provinces to Prussia, bits of the Balkans to Austria, the Crimea and Georgia to Turkey, and making Poland into a buffer state. St. Petersburg was to be attacked and Russia comprehensively neutered.

The battles themselves -- Alma, Inkerman, Balaklava -- were curiously unsatisfactory affairs that lacked the devastating strategic impact of many earlier Napoleonic engagements. All three of the main engagements took place within two months of the French and British landing in the Crimean peninsula in 1854; after that the allies sat down to starve and bombard the Russians out of Sevastopol.

The eventual Russian defeat, though not as comprehensive as Palmerston had wished, did nevertheless have momentous consequences for European history, as Figes makes clear. Most vitally, Austria's armed neutrality during the war severed forever the Russo-Austrian imperial alliance. The resulting Austrian isolation made the unification of Germany and Italy much easier (it was beaten out of both territories), and led to its steady retreat in the Balkans -- a retreat whose consequences in 1914 were felt by us all.

Andrew Holgate is the Literary Editor of The Sunday Times (London).
devesh
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by devesh »

ramana garu,
before your pointer I never really researched Zimmerman telegram too much. the entire fiasco has so many loopholes now that I looked into it.....

anyways, the 1857 War of Independence changed the course of Central Asia and Iran-Afghanistan region. the British used to meddle with that region with gusto before the War, but after the uprising they left it alone for Russia to dominate and build their networks for decades to come. the British were so paranoid of getting distracted in that region and losing track of the Crown Jewel that they gladly left the field open for Russia without much care. that is how deeply 1857 shook Britain and influenced their thinking even in arenas like Russia, CA, and Iran.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by svinayak »

devesh wrote:ramana garu,
before your pointer I never really researched Zimmerman telegram too much. the entire fiasco has so many loopholes now that I looked into it.....

anyways, the 1857 War of Independence changed the course of Central Asia and Iran-Afghanistan region. the British used to meddle with that region with gusto before the War, but after the uprising they left it alone for Russia to dominate and build their networks for decades to come. the British were so paranoid of getting distracted in that region and losing track of the Crown Jewel that they gladly left the field open for Russia without much care. that is how deeply 1857 shook Britain and influenced their thinking even in arenas like Russia, CA, and Iran.
This British insecurity after 1857 and the closing in of the Russian influence in CAR made them to plot the middle east and the break of the Ottoman empire and secure Iraq region in 1915 - WWI.

Similar thinking is going after 1990 during the Gulf War I in 1991 and after the break of the Soviet Union and formation of Central asia republic states.
There is link between the Central asia(Af Pak) control and the Iraq region control by the Anglo American powers.
After 911 they have both the region under their direct control which they had wished hundred years ago. They are looking for expansion from this region and hence Kashmir.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by ramana »

It also had an effact on US South. The money they got by trading in cotton fibre with Liverpool, which had depended on Indian supplies till then, convicned them they could secede. And that led to 1861 start of US Civil War.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by svinayak »

There is something about the civil war which is being dismissed

Was Abe Lincoln a Jewish pawn of the Rothschilds?
He freed the slaves, preserved the Union and pushed major banking reform. That last part still gets people upset
http://www.salon.com/books/history/inde ... othschilds
When I asked what relevance a revisionist reading of Lincoln's religion or ethnicity might have to the historical record, I was informed that a) "he would want to free the black slaves because his ancestors were traumatized about being slaves in Egypt" and b) "he would try to help the European Jews (Rothschilds) in taking over the United States by starting a war and having Americans fight one another while they take control of our banking system."

News like this can make a person reconsider celebrating Presidents' Day, if you take it seriously, which, initially, I did not. You didn't have to be Jewish to think slavery was an abomination, and what I can glean from the historical record seems to indicate that the Rothschilds thought an American Civil War would be bad for business. But I still felt compelled to do some googling to see if I could get a sense of where the "Abe Lincoln as Jewish Rothschild pawn" ranked on the Birther/911 Truther conspiracy theory Richter scale.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by devesh »

^^^

Anglo dream of Iraq+Afg domination is interesting. basically they're targeting regions which are in the "transit" areas. they're not the hubs of activity (though Iraq has significant oil), but you have to go through these regions to get to important places. Iraq is the elephant sitting between Turkey and Iran. Afghanistan is the elephant sitting between Iran+CA and India.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by svinayak »

devesh wrote:^^^

Anglo dream of Iraq+Afg domination is interesting. basically they're targeting regions which are in the "transit" areas. they're not the hubs of activity (though Iraq has significant oil), but you have to go through these regions to get to important places. Iraq is the elephant sitting between Turkey and Iran. Afghanistan is the elephant sitting between Iran+CA and India.
These regions are called strategic crossroads.
They are also civilization fault lines.
They are trade transit corridors.

By controlling them one can control the hinterland region.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by ramana »

Its more than Oil or energy. They were there before oil was found.

Its about religions, history and politics and then energy.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by svinayak »

Iraq+Afg are also cross roads of civilization and if a new order and new global foundation has to be put in these are the region they will start from.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by ramana »

Unfortunately the regions encounter with the new improved religion has taken the civilization out of them! It has left them at the cross roads or chaurasta.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by UBanerjee »

devesh wrote:here's a commentary on Fukuyama's latest book "Foundations of Political Order." I haven't read the book, but there is a general outline in the link below.
I just recently read the book.. the parts about India are fairly poisonous, and simple-minded, with barely any research... simply parrots simplistic tropes about varna system and all that. There are some real nasty gems he includes as well which I won't go over. Give it a skip unless you want to see it for yourself.

He's not much better towards China, the book is very much written from a POV of Western exceptionalism and he states flat-out that modern society's big challenge is "how to get to Denmark" where Denmark is the ideal for all nations and societies :roll:
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by devesh »

^^^

another deracinated Asian convert who tries his best to fit in. though in Fukuyama's case, it stretches back 2 generations before him.

i posted that link just to outline the kind of thinking that pervades the West, including such blatant misappropriation of historic movements/incidents like assigning Marxism on the shoulders of the East.....I figured the Non-Western Worldview is the best thread for this.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by UBanerjee »

Good thing is Fukuyama isn't really taken seriously in political science circles, ever since End of History which has become the benchmark for poorly conceived political science.

There are some interesting parts of the book amidst the dribble, about evolutionary biology and combating nepotism, which are fairly relevant for modern day India. But there are better sources to explore that.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by ramana »

Couple of posts from TSP discussion thread for archival purposes and continuity....
Theo_Fidel wrote:
Sadler wrote:Not quite. I did not mean to say "Indians" and therefore did not write "Indians." An attack on a church in India with the slaughter of innocent indian christians (or the jewish equivalent) would evoke a far greater (emotive) response in the US than would the murder of an equal number of hindus. I will plead mea culpa to blunt talk. Even the LET trial in the US is because some of the victims were my fellow jews and americans. Were it not for these six (?)-odd victims, there would be no such trial in the US and news coverage of the Nov 26 carnage would disappear from US media and american conciousness without a trace.
Actually it is not that simple. There are Christians and then there are Christians. SDRE Christians have been eliminated in much of TSP with nary a comment from the West. Christians have been slowly exterminated in much of Iraq & the Middle East with little resistance. As recently as a century ago the Middle East was 25% Christian. One must also remember Rwanda.

The American machine does not think in religious terms at the very top despite media mouth frothing.

One thing amongst many that the American machine appears to react to is any attack on a group that it perceives to have future necessity/influence in. Thus it is the South Sudan Animists/Christians get a state (Oil), East Timor gets a State (Oil), Libyan rebels are supported (Oil), but Syrian rebels are not supported (no oil) and Christian Copts are not supported (no Oil).
Theo,
The Roman Church ingnored the troubles of the Syrian (later day orthodox church) and Nestorian church in Middle East and concentrated on expanding in Europe from 800AD. America is a continuation of the Roman Chruch without a Pope but with elected Caeser. Hence the myopia towards the plight of other Christians. Its the Roman emphasis on Europe or Caucasians.

Lalmohan said it best in BENIS- BO is Obamus Africanus.

Next

Gagan wrote:A few points that I would like to raise:
1. I don't agree with the west's christian mindset coming into play. This argument is a bit too simplistic.

One can understand that a caucasian christian president can make a certain policy, but then are all the diplomats, advisors, GOTUS all in tune and in harmony with policy just because it is christian inspired?

Not at all. The US isn't a super power because they have a 'christian' thought process.
They would not be courting Ayub and the various Middle eastern arab states if things were so simplistic.

Attributing everything to some christian suspicions about a pagan religion is to me a shallow argument.

My thinking is that India's leadership did not build bridges with the superpowers in that era. They did well right after independence, because hollywood tended to show indians as great scientists. I remember a 50s era movie about a mars mission with an indian scientist dressed like JLN who was supposedly one of the 3 greatest minds on earth! I think that after JLN, there were a string of SDRE leaders and ambassadors and interlocuters who for whatever reasons were unable to further develop partnerships that were built initially after independence.

Events took a certain course, the US made certain set of choices based on their impressions about India, that resulted in them and India ending up opposing each other rather than working together. They needed a munna, we are too proud to be one. Pakistan presented itself as both TFTA and eagerly willing to satisfy all demands.
Some fault has to lie with us also. We also have to look at how much we invested in building relationships, were we pontificating all the time, and yet had huge social and economic issues that were unresolved?

2. I feel that we should not take the argument about, only India being able to help pakistan out of their current crisis, any forward. That thought is begining to take root in Pakistan too with Nawaz Sharif talking about economic integration with India.

Pakistan after murdering 50,000 Indians shouldn't be allowed to go scot free, trade with us, build itself economically and then to stab us in the future.

No Sir!

There is no evidence that they have changed their anti-india ideology. This is just another taquiya.

It is along the lines of them wanting to settle the 'Siachen' issue. What phucking Siachen issue hain ji? Those guys can't even see the siachen glacier from where they are located. They are sitting in the lower glaciers that approach the Saltoro range, with the Indian Army on top of the saltoro range, and brushing off, frustrating any feeble attempts they make to come up the mountains. And we are discussing 'Siachen' with them. They don't even want to authenticate the AGPL, that is the hard reality, 100% meaning that they want to take on the negotiating table what they could never take on the ground militarily.

Our think tanks wanted greater trade with Pakistan all these years didn't they? This MFN thing? What happens if they actually say they want to trade with us? We will only be postponing Pakistan's day of judgement to another day, delaying it by a decade, and in the process lose a few thousand innocent indian citizens along the way. They are not going to change, they can't control the armies of armed terrorists who will be unemployed after the US draws down.

Not in India's interest at all. The only way India can have peace in the foreseeable future is dismantling Pakistan altogether, THEN solving Kashmir once and for all.

3. This dismantling Pakistan is actually going to be a blessing for everyone around. The people most benefited by this will be the people who live in Pakistan today. The best example I can come up with is India's division of states that happened earlier this decade. India carved out three states out of larger states which were under performing. The result is that the smaller states are better managed, are harnessing resources much better.

This analogy can't be applied straightforward to Pakistan's plan of dividing their states into smaller sub states. That is a bad idea. The reason this was successful in India was because the country was doing well, but these states were under performing. In Pakistan's case, both the country and the states are under performing, creating new smaller states within that country will see expenditures rise with new power centres, new bureaucracies come into being, it will be too expensive for them to manage. The only reasonable solution is division of that country itself.

I believe that the people of Pakistan will heave a sigh of relief should Pakistan be divided. They are currently trapped in a nation that has the military as the all-powerful entity that is sucking them dry, there are Jihadists and terrorists who want to destroy everything that is sensible, in order to enforce their bigoted viewpoint. There is no economy, no security, no peace, no healthcare, no education other than a madarsa, and consequently no future. If one were to read between the lines, I believe that the people of Pakistan are pleading for deliverance from Pakistan. I say division of Pakistan, because between them, the Army, the Jihadis and the Feudals, they are prospering with the current state of affairs. Their power and hold of the nation is such that they will take the nation down with them but will not release their grip. And nothing on earth can get them to release that grip short of a WW2 style invasion and complete military defeat - something that no one seems willing to want to do.

Division is the only sensible solution, that will be acceptable to the vast majority of people of Pakistan. The only people who will be cribbing about it will be the Army and the Feudals. The Jihadis I suspect will divide along the lines of those that want a division and those that don't want it. The pashtuns would want such a division, while the Punjabis won't.

So let us all deliver the people of Pakistan from the mess that they are in.

My do naya paisa.
and
svenkat wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:the US did indeed embrace a non judeo-christian culture whole heartedly when it suited its purpose - I am thinking of Thailand during the Vietnam war, and perhaps even South Vietnam and South Korea, possibly even Japan. During WW2, the US was starting to feel this love for the Chinese nationalists too
In South Vietnam,the ruling elite were Catholic and hostile to Buddhists.True in South Korea as well.Even in Hong Kong movies,the police officers are Christian and the criminals Buddhists,according to some one who I trust.I cannot verify the Hong Kong fact.But you can look up to Wikepedia on South Korea and Vietnam and these accounts are biased in favour of West.

From a western perspective,contempt for Nehrus sanctimonious socialism was understandable.From a protestant christian perspective,contempt for what passes as Hinduism and the religion of Buddhism is understandable.But the deliberate distortions of India and support for pakistan is deep rooted 'fear' of the bluff of binary cult of Western superiority being called and exposed.Again perfectly understandable from an imperial view.The Russian Revolution made US a conservative power which was conserving a modern version of Imperial Europe in a continent founded on liberal ideals for the white people.

The end of Soviet Union has made US less jaundiced and things have improved from then on all fronts excluding porkistan.

See my comments on Theo's post..

Soviet Union was Orthodoxy in a Marxist cloak. Once they realised its a dead end they shed it. Its as simple as that. The first Tsar adopted Orthodoxy as a state religion for at that time, Constantinopole was at its zenith. With Putin its back to the future between new Rome (Washington DC) and Old Constantinopole (Moscow).


and
JE Menon wrote:It is also instructive to study in detail about the American role just before and just after we got independence. According to the Brits themselves, they were a pain in the ass on the India question. Narendra Singh Sarila's book is very forthcoming on the subject.

It does not help to look at everything through the "Christian" prism. American policies are influenced by many factors, and this is an admittedly important one among them. Have they harmed us deliberately? Yes they have (Punjab). Have they turned a blind eye? Yes they have (decades of Pakjihad). Are their continued arms supplies to Pakistan, especially when the know that these will be used only against India, cynical or worse malevolent? Yes it is (for now I will stick with cynical). But note that they are also (at least reportedly) making an effort to monitor end-use - to a degree we would never countenance where India is concerned.

The picture is not black and white, in my opinion. And America has many uses. While all the above is true, it is also true that America is doing a lot of things in Pakistan now that we wish to do, but have neither the financial nor technological wherewithal to do - at the moment. I mean guys, we have gotten used to it

On the other hand, I do not believe anyone here is suggesting disengagement from the US. It is also not useful to look at things through that perspective. What almost everybody seems to be saying is treat them with extreme caution, and clearmindedness. Who will oppose that?

We also seem to differ on tactics. Absent any real information on the internals of our relationship (and it is clear that there is far more than meets the eye), there is not much else we can do. Yet, I'm sure positions on both sides will be amended somewhat when things gradually get clearer.

It is also not always useful to see India as some whimpering, spineless weakling that is unwilling to do anything against Pakistan. Look at the trajectory that Pakistan has been on since the late 1980s. Is it all due to their stupidity? India, and our babus in the defence/foreign/home ministries - as well as many politicians, are by no means walkovers. Personally, I'm confident we will ensure through calibrated action and inaction that Pakistan changes itself from within, or it will be changed from without.

China is a different story. The great PVNR had some useful things to say on the subject in one of his final interviews IIRC.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by ramana »

[
Andre Gunder Frank, "ReORIENT: Global Economy in the Asian Age"
Publisher: University of California Press | 1998 | ISBN: 0520214749 | 416 pages |
Andre Gunder Frank asks us to ReOrient our views away from Eurocentrism--to see the rise of the West as a mere blip in what was, and is again becoming, an Asia-centered world. In a bold challenge to received historiography and social theory he turns on its head the world according to Marx, Weber, and other theorists, including Polanyi, Rostow, Braudel, and Wallerstein. Frank explains the Rise of the West in world economic and demographic terms that relate it in a single historical sweep to the decline of the East around 1800. European states, he says, used the silver extracted from the American colonies to buy entry into an expanding Asian market that already flourished in the global economy. Resorting to import substitution and export promotion in the world market, they became Newly Industrializing Economies and tipped the global economic balance to the West. That is precisely what East Asia is doing today, Frank points out, to recover its traditional dominance. As a result, the "center" of the world economy is once again moving to the "Middle Kingdom" of China. Anyone interested in Asia, in world systems and world economic and social history, in international relations, and in comparative area studies, will have to take into account Frank's exciting reassessment of our global economic past and future.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by abhischekcc »

Ramana, Acharya, and Parag (if you visit this thread),

Is there are writings/proof that the British encouraged the South to declare independence in the Aerican civil war?
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by abhischekcc »

I have a request for information:

I am trying to compile a list of the shareholders of British EIC (and if it is nottoo much trouble, French and Dutch as well). I am not making much headway.

Could someone point the right sources where I can get this information?

TIA
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by svinayak »

abhischekcc wrote:Ramana, Acharya, and Parag (if you visit this thread),

Is there are writings/proof that the British encouraged the South to declare independence in the Aerican civil war?
Check this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain_in ... _Civil_War
Check how cotton and India indirectly was an important factor during the civil war.
The Confederacy, and its president Jefferson Davis, believed from the beginning that British dependence on cotton for its large textile industry would lead to diplomatic recognition and mediation or military intervention. Historian Charles Hubbard writes:
Davis left foreign policy to others in government and, rather than developing an aggressive diplomatic effort, tended to expect events to accomplish diplomatic objectives. The new president was committed to the notion that cotton would secure recognition and legitimacy from the powers of Europe. The men Davis selected as secretary of state and emissaries to Europe were chosen for political and personal reasons – not for their diplomatic potential. This was due, in part, to the belief that cotton could accomplish the Confederate objectives with little help from Confederate diplomats.[3]
[edit]
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by shyam »

^^^
Can extrapolate and say that the first war of independence in India indirectly created civil war in the US?
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by abhischekcc »

Thanks Acharya.

Do you have any info on the shareholders of British EIC?
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by svinayak »

East India Companies (EICs)
What we Know

East India Company, a group of British Merchants or British Government joined together and formed a company and British Dutch French Belgium Kings Gave unbridled charter rights to Trade over vast India China, Far East Asia and Africa. All believe that the same structure identically followed when Bank of England was Chartered a year later. Same thing continued with Lloyds which was chartered a year later. It was also told that this EIC was dissolved in 1857 and British Queen took over the India.

Commodities of EICs

EICs bought tea, spices from South East Asia. But what did they sell. What ever they sold gave them incredible profits and with this they maintained huge private army, traveled thousands of miles to do business conquering all nations in South East Asia. We know that they sold cotton and clothes to India. The other magical commodity which they sold is to Chinese was grown in India, after EICs forced poor Indian farmers at point to abandon all other agricultural production, the name of which if Indians hear probably they first laugh and then faint, it is the most addictive drug Opium.

Another exciting product that was dealt on large scale by EICs (all) was selling slaves from all places to South America to work in sugar, tea plantations and ranches. From India they called them coolies, from china they are called pigs and from Africa proper they are called slaves. British EIC sold close to million slaves (these products are terrific as the cost production is zero and what ever the sale price is it is pure profit) till the beginning of 20th century.

The East India Company (the “Company”) was one of the institutions created as a product of the Venetian Merchants takeover of England’s commerce. In England it was called British East India Company. The Levant Company, set up to trade with the East, had been formed in 1592 as a fusion of the Turkey Company (with predominant partnership by house of Sassoon, fathers-in-law of Rothschild) and the Venice Company (probably the House of Rothschild). In 1600. The East India Company was formed as a spin-off (subsidiary of) of the Levant Company. It received a perpetual charter from the British Monarchy for a monopoly on trade with the East Indies. This east india company had many partners under various names belonging to various nations, Dutch, British, Belgium and French East India Companies and Dutch, British and French East African Companies and received same perpetual charters from all these countries.

Most importantly The Levant Company or Turkey Company or The Venice Company and East India Companies are all partnerships. Meaning they need not declare their profits, nor assets nor the partner names or addresses. An appointed representative of the company will file returns and act as liaison of the principal owners. Worst with East india company was, it was a subsidiary of The Levant Company. As we see with many Multi National Companies (MNCs) that are forming partnership in India are also Subsidiaries of some other holding companies, and these holding companies in turn are subsidiaries of another set of numbered companies and these numbered companies in turn are held in trusts and these trusts are held in partnership, and the partnership address is a P.O. Box number some where in Central London or in New York. We see only the officers and lawyers of these MNCs not the real owners. It is the identification of the ownership of these MNCs and EICs will solve the puzzle of dis appeared EICs, a puzzle probably except Japan none in Asia ever understood, Indians never thought of it so never worried about it and do not care about it.

This company had 40 owners. They elected a governor, a deputy governor and a board consisting of 24 directors. The same structure identically followed when Bank of England was Chartered. Who are these 40 share holders/owners of this company. But in reality East India Companies-British East India Company, French East India Company and Dutch East India Company-in their noble cause of civilizing mankind looted close to $ 1.6 trillion worth of wealth from the countries they traded with. Ruthlessly exploited more than dozen countries by selling their subjects as slaves. Killed more than 100 million people in order to maximize their profit and minimize their cost, encouraged wholesale addiction of opium among 30 million people, created more than 30 famines all across the nations. These gigantic behemouth East India Companies were the true Multinationals of their time. They dis appeared from the face of earth-we should believe so-and reappeared as Multi National Corporations controlled by the same owners their heirs successors. This part examines the origin of these industrial houses that owned EICs and the other industrial houses that were involved with these East India Companies.


Who are these 40 persons who owned this company? Why did British government pledged its soldiers for this company for next 400 years conquering every land this company touched? Where did the money they made in the company went? To British government or to the owners? How much money they made? What are the commodities these traders traded?
Why after 275 years after its inception when this British East India company was dissolved, all properties were absorbed by Lloyds-a behemoth of Shipping Insurance under writing and investment Bank- which is a subsidiary of N.M. Rothschild & Co.
Though after Mrs. Victoria proclaimed India as part of British Empire why the Indian affairs were run by Privy Council with Managing partnership of EIC, and Chancellor Exchequer of British Treasury who happened to be all the time the Chairman of Bank of England, another Family bank of House of Rothschild.

These families constitute a financier oligarchy; they are the power behind the Windsor throne. They view themselves as the heirs to the Venetian oligarchy, which infiltrated and subverted England from the period 1509-1715, and established a new, more virulent, Anglo-Dutch-Swiss strain of the oligarchic system of imperial Babylon, Persia, Rome, and Byzantium....
  The City of London dominates the world's speculative markets. A tightly interlocking group of corporations, involved in raw materials extraction, finance, insurance, transportation, and food production, controls the lion's share of the world market, and exerts virtual "choke point'' control over world industry." http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/largest.htm
  Steinberg belongs to a group of historians associated with economist Lyndon Larouche. They have traced this scourge to the migration of the Venetian mercantile oligarchy to England more than 300 years ago. http://members.tripod.com/~american_alm ... nlowry.htm
 
Although the Larouche historians do not say so, it appears that many members of this oligarchy were Jews. Cecil Roth writes: "The trade of Venice was overwhelmingly concentrated in the hands of the Jews, the wealthiest of the mercantile class." (/The History of the Jews in Venice, 1930) /
  The Jewish banking families made it a practice to marry their female offspring to spendthrift European aristocrats. In Jewish law, the mixed offspring of a Jewish mother is Jewish. (The male heirs always marry Jews.) The daughter of Jewish banker Ernest Cassel married Lord Louis Montbatten, who was related to Queen Victoria and Prince Philip.

The British East India Company who snuck into India under the guise of traders first initiated colonisation. You can read about their Illuminati links at this page http://user.pa.net/~drivera/fw5.htm which says that "They were closely related to the Levant Company, and the Anglo-Muscovy Company, and spawned the London Company, which was chartered in 1606 by King James I, to establish the Virginia Plantation on a communistic basis, and the Plymouth Colony in 1621." And again "Every year, 24 Directors were elected by the Court of Proprietors (or shareholders, a majority of which were English Masons)."
The British traders were not allowed to own property in India but one of them managed to gain the favors of Mughal emperor Aurangzeb by curing his ill wife. In return, he asked for land. This piece of land became the Madras Headquarters of the East India Company.

EIC 1815 Rothschilds MNC 1975 Lib & Pvt
Free Trade in Action
EIC and Indian Gold for British paychecks
On the orders of Nathan Rothschild then Chairman Bank of England, Eight hundred thousand pounds of gold (close to 350 tons) was shipped out of India from East India Company to his brother James Rothschild in Paris to be sent to Admiral Nelson to pay salaries of British/Spanish soldiers fighting with Napoleon.
Nathan was billed $ 2 per kilogram of Gold by East India Company. Historians believe that this $ 2 dollars is nothing but the shipping charges that were paid to the shipping company, Lloyds (at $ 2 per kilogram of gold), to carry the gold to James in Paris.
Essentially East India Company shipped the Indian gold Free obtained from Indian Free Trade to Nathan to be paid for British soldiers’ salaries who were fighting a European battle for British supremacy.


In the year 1600 East India Company was formed and given exclusive right to trade with India and south east Asia by British Monarchy under the concept of Free Trade and Globalization. The Charter was renewed in 1690. It was also given the right to civilize India. In the year 1965 club of Rome (top industrial houses- real owners of EICs or MNCs) divided the world in 10 economic segments and gave unbridled authority to ruthlessly exploit Segment 9 (India belongs to this segment 9) a group of mineral (diamond, gold, uranium, life saving medicinal plants, organic food and drinking water) oil natural gas rich south east Asian nations consisting one third of population of world- under liberalization (liberalize domestic economy to globalize its owners) and privatization (privatize so that Free Trade can further control domestic economy via global owners) to a group of MNCs.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by abhischekcc »

Thanks Acharya.

I was not aware of the Venetian links of the EIC. However, what I really want are the names of these shareholders :). I know that there were 40 to begin with in 1600, and by 1858 it had reached 125.

I am not so sure about Rothschilds being shareholders in the company for two reasons:
1. EIC was started in 1600, NM Rothschilds reached England much later, hence could not have been a founder.
2. Upon reading Caroll Quigley's "Tragedy and Hope..." I got the impression that Rothschild was not a shareholder, while the English king was.

I checked out the website of the British Library, but nothing there.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by devesh »

^^^
I would think the specific names of shareholder would be extremely hard to come by. they probably directly dealt with the King or high authorities and gained access into EIC. and their names would have been specifically not mentioned by the higher officials. and even later research isn't likely to find much when there are no primary sources. whatever "deep" info probably exists only in British Intelligence archives and databases with security clearance for those documents given only to a few. it is unlikely that these things will ever see the light of day. if Indian minds decide to extract revenge, then perhaps there will be some serious covert efforts to dig deeper into it, but till then, there can be no "conclusive" evidence of the participation of an elite and rich cabal of predatory business interests.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by devesh »

Image
The Dutch East India Company (VOC), founded in 1602, is often considered as the first true multinational corporation. From the 17th to the 18th century trading companies such as VOC (and its British counterpart; the East India Trading Company) acted on behalf of European governments in Asia. As joint stock companies they were private mercantilist tools with a guarantied trade monopoly in exchange of rights paid to their respective governments. They were almost states by themselves with their own ships (military and merchant) and military forces. Their initial goal was to develop trade links for prized commodities such as pepper and as time progressed they became increasingly involved in the control and development of their respective territories.

In 1610, VOC gained a foothold in Batavia (Indonesia / Dutch East Indies) and conquered most of the island of Ceylon (Sri Lanka) by 1640, establishing the stronghold of Galle. The major trading hub of Malacca was taken from the Portuguese in 1641. By the mid seventeen century VOC has replaced most local trading networks with their own with a series of fortified trading posts. Cape Town (South Africa) was also founded in 1650 as a crucial stage for the long Europe-Asia voyage. Later, plantations, which forced the introduction of new forms of cultivation such as coffee in West Java (1723), were established. It resulted in a growing quantity and variety of cargo being traded. The company essentially achieved for about a century a monopoly on nutmeg (meat preserver) and cinnamon trade and raked substantial profits. Most of it was coming from the "Spice Islands" in the Dutch East Indies. By 1750, VOC employed around 25,000 people and was doing business in 10 Asian countries. However, mainly due to corruption and mismanagement the company faced bankruptcy in 1799 with its holdings transferred to the Dutch Crown.

When VOC first came to Asia, ships made the long distance trip back and forth from Europe. Later, a trade network composed of two layers was established, reminiscent of a hub-and-spoke structure. A regional trade network was serviced by smaller ships that called along coastal trading routes a variety of ports throughout the region. The goods where then collected in large warehouses in protected strongholds; Batavia (Indonesia) and Galle (Sri Lanka) were the most significant. Traded commodities included textiles, pepper and yarn from India; cinnamon, cardamon, and gems from Sri Lanka. Some were traded only over short distances, while others traveled greater distances, such as between Indonesia, China and Japan. Other commodities, such a cinnamon and nutmeg were mainly exported back to Europe. To do so, much larger "return ships" of 500 to 1,000 tons were used for the long haul which included a stopover in Cape Town. The route and the season these ships traveled was configured to take maximum advantage of dominant winds. On the inbound route from Amsterdam, ships essentially crossed the Atlantic to reach the South American coast and then catch the fast Westerlies that would bring them to Cape Town. From there, the Westerlies brought the ships straight across the Indian Ocean towards Australia and then a sharp turn north to Batavia or Galle. The return route was more direct and took advantage of the southeast bound winter monsoon winds.

added later:
link: http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ ... twork.html
Last edited by devesh on 15 Jun 2011 18:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by devesh »

http://www.oldest-share.com/
Trade in Asian spices, and above all pepper, was subject to contracts set up by the crown with fixed prices that had to be followed by the traders (contradores). They then sold on the goods to retailers such as the Dutch trading house Cunertorf & Snel in Lisbon which in turn supplied the the north European market via trading agencies in Antwerp.

In order to finance the ships and equipment , companies were formed such as the Brabantse Compagnie, the Rotterdamse Compagnie, the Compagnie van Verre, which in turn merged with the Second Compagnie in Amsterdam and was called the Old (Oude) Compagnie.

On 20 March 1602 the prime companies of Holland merged to form a large company called "Vereinigte Ostindische Compagnie (VOC) on the suggestion of the "landsadvocat" of the province of Holland Johan van Oldenbarnevelt (1547-1619) and the later General Governor Prinz Johann Moritz von Nassau (1606 - 1679).

At the beginning the company was run by six chambers in signification trading centres: Amsterdam as the main focus, Seeland, Delft, Rotterdam, Hoorn and Enkhuizen.
Each chamber appointed its own directors to Board of Directors that was 75 strong. From these the actual executive board was elected and consisted of 17 members.

The original paid up share capital was 6,424,588 Guilders, a huge sum at that time. The key to success in the raising of capital was the decision taken by the owners to to open up access to a wide public and to accept shareholders as part-owners. Thus the shares were sold rapidly, mostly at a nominal value of 3000 Guilders, and they were tradable, as any Dutchman could buy and sell them. The share price was not set by the government of the country but by an independent joint-stock corporation interested in profit. The company shareholders (the term came into use after about 1606) had to produce the subscribed capital in four part payments and they were called up by the VOC between 1603 and 1606.

The shareholder received a receipt (Part) for the payment to the nominal value of the share, just as was customary at the British East India Company over 100 years later. A share certificate documenting payment and ownership such as we know today was not issued but was instead entered in the companiy's share register. Purchases and sales of shares were effected by a new entry in the VOC's share register in the presence of two directors, who needed to confirm the share transfer by signature. Thus the Amsterdam Kontor of the VOC became the "first stock exchange in the world" by trading in its own shares.

The VOC's start-up capital was never increased apart from a few small adjustments to 6,440,200 Guilders. The company covered its short-term capital requirement by issuing bonds with a term of 3 to 12 months. Later, after 1655, capital was taken up for longer terms so that loan capital increased at times to 10-12 million Guilders. The state privilege granted the company wide-ranging rights, such as exclusive trading rights east of the Cape of Good Hope, the right to negotiate on behalf of the General State, to conclude contracts and alliances, to build forts, to appoint governors and to raise its own army. In this way the company became a "state within the state" and disposed of an incredible commercial and political power, entirely above the state that granted privileges up to the minting of its own coins.
"Finally, the VOC ruled over eight foreign governments in Amboyna, Banda, Ternate, Macassar, Malacca, Ceylon, Java and on the Cape of Good Hope. Factories stood in Bengal, on the Coromandel coast, in Surat, Thailand and on the Persian Gulf. In the end, the Dutch East Indies Company was the richest company in the world; it helped to finance the blossoming of Dutch civilisation: Rembrandt, Vermeer, Frans Hals, Vondel, Grotius, Spinoza, the largest publishing operation in the world in the 17th century with numerous authors and poets, some forgotten today, all the painters architects and above all the patrons.

abhishekcc ji,

my gut tells me that the answers to your questions won't be easy to come by. you'll have to start going into details and start mapping out the various entities and people related to or directly involved in each of the several trading companies, import/export houses, etc. once all those details are gathered, I suspect that a general pattern of linkages will be discovered all of which have the same power brokers supporting them. it will be arduous research and data collection. but that might be the only way to get to the info.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by abhischekcc »

devesh wrote: abhishekcc ji,

my gut tells me that the answers to your questions won't be easy to come by. you'll have to start going into details and start mapping out the various entities and people related to or directly involved in each of the several trading companies, import/export houses, etc. once all those details are gathered, I suspect that a general pattern of linkages will be discovered all of which have the same power brokers supporting them. it will be arduous research and data collection. but that might be the only way to get to the info.
I agree. That is what I was trying to avoid :)

But it will be an exercise worth it.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by svinayak »

abhischekcc wrote:Thanks Acharya.
However, what I really want are the names of these shareholders :). I know that there were 40 to begin with in 1600, and by 1858 it had reached 125.
Let me see. I will send a letter to the current address of the Rothschild and ask them about the names of the original board members of the company. There could be some records kept which they might share.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by ramana »

Why don't you send it to jamai babu (son-in-law) Amartya Senji?
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:Why don't you send it to jamai babu (son-in-law) Amartya Senji?
We have to go directly to London and not through some third party.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by abhischekcc »

Acharya wrote:
abhischekcc wrote:Thanks Acharya.
However, what I really want are the names of these shareholders :). I know that there were 40 to begin with in 1600, and by 1858 it had reached 125.
Let me see. I will send a letter to the current address of the Rothschild and ask them about the names of the original board members of the company. There could be some records kept which they might share.
Ha bludy ha :lol:

It would be better to send a letter to the British Privy Council, since they were the ones that issued the charter in the first place.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by ramana »

Can we take this off line as it appears non-serious line of enquiry?
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by abhischekcc »

Ramana,

I am serious about making a list of such people. I will start a separate thread when I have enough material.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by svinayak »

Dont ask openly for this kind of list. Also lot of information is hidden and they have been covering all the information for the last 50 years. Just the pattern of hiding the information tells a lot.
Enormous amount of funding done by EIC in Oxford and Cambridge to study India and this continues.

You might find something here

http://peopleofindia1868-1875photos.blo ... chive.html

(100)
-PAINTINGS BY-THOMAS WILLIAMSON OF BENGAL ARMY -18...
1782-PAINTING ,OF INDIAN CARPENTER
1782 PAINTING OF INDIAN LIFE--IRON SMITH;WOOD CARV...
1782-PAINTING OF:-INDIAN OF SIVA SECT;INDIAN BRAHM...
1782 -French Explorer Pierre Sonnerat -Illustratio...
1870-FISHER FOLK-MADRAS(CHENNAI)
WOMEN PORTERS TAKING CLAY JARS-1920-MADRAS(CHENNAI...
chepauk palace madras(chennai) 1890.Chepauk Palace...


Image
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by Sushupti »

‘Brain surgery' during Harappan civilisation?

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/history-an ... epage=true
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by devesh »

http://www.odinsvolk.ca/WhyAsatru1.htm
Asatru is the ancient ethnic indigenous spirituality of the Germanic peoples. As a religion it preceeds Christianity by thousands of years, and is as old as this unique branch of humanity itself.

When the Germanic tribes appeared out of the Northern Scandinavian mist and fell upon Europe with fire and conquest they forever changed the course of history for the entire world. They brought terror. But they also brought a tradition of equality, tolerance and a new concept of a democratic society with a representative government that emphasized individual liberty and rights, the basic principles that would become the basis for English Law and judicial system, the Magna Carta, and the seeds of the American Revolution.

Our ancient ancestors were a bold and venturesome people. From Northern Germany, Holland, Denmark, Norway and Sweden they spread through the entirety of Europe in the several periods of vigorous expansion and migrations (AD 400-1150) known as the 'Migration Age' and the 'Viking Age'. Although they are primarily often thought of as barbarian raiders, the heathen Germanic peoples were also artists, traders, merchants, farmers, explorers, settlers and warriors. Our Germanic ancestors, through wide ranging migrations, settlements, trade and conquests gave rise to the English, Dutch, French, German, Swiss, Austrian, Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, North Italic and Icelandic peoples and nations, who are all directly descended from this single ancient source. They also they left their indelible mark on the peoples and cultures of Ireland, Scotland, France, Spain and Italy, eastward to Russia and the Black Sea, and laid the foundation of many early Kingdoms and States in these lands and many others that still exist today.

They developed a ship so advanced that made the Baltic their own, and they were held in high regard by the Byzantine emperors whose Varangian guard was made up entirely of Viking warriors, they thumbed their nose at Charlemagne in the Mediterranean; they laid siege to Paris, and settled a large part of France that became known as Normandy; they conquered England and made it a Danish Kingdom; they colonized much of Ireland and founded all of the main cities there (Dublin, Cork, Limerick...) they settled in large numbers in Scotland, Iceland, the Hebrides and the Orkneys. They became the first European people to navigate the Atlantic Ocean where they discovered Greenland and North America, and even established several temporary colonies there.
They brought their traditions of individual rights and privileges with them in their new homelands. They left a legacy not only of archaeological remains, but also of family names, place names and fieldnames. Their "remains" can be found in local dialects and customs, in folk tales and oral traditions, and of course in the genetic make up of the local people themselves who are descended from this ancient source.

The religion of our ancestors consisted of several Goddesses and Gods, giving them a holistic and balanced view of equality between the sexes, this ancient traditional view permeated their society. The Northmen had a history of democracy stretching back well over a thousand years, to the beginning of the Iron Age, when various hardships caused the distinction between the classes to blur.

The Germanic peoples have a native, natural organic spiritual tradition of art, religion, mythology and magic unique unto themselves, which is embodied in Asatru. Asatru is a polytheistic, animistic, and shamanic form of spirituality. Contrary to Christian assertions, Heathens are not Godless; in reality, they believed in many Gods, Goddesses, and other spiritual beings. Our ancestors lived in harmony with the earth, which gave their spiritual nature a balanced, holistic view of the deities, which consisted of several Goddesses and Gods, each embodying the various cosmic aspects of physical, mental and spiritual being.

The ancient Goddesses and Gods are viewed as the root of our people, our most ancient family members and inspirational role models, honoured and revered for their gifts of the mind, body and spirit. We approach our Gods and Goddesses to honour them, never to grovel before them on our knees. They are our role models, inspirations, and even family, but never are they our masters nor are we their slaves. We hold our heads up high before our Gods, we do not bow or kneel before them when we call on them, nor do we surrender our human sovereignty to them. We do not pray and beg from them, sacrificing freedom for a handout.

Asatru is a living faith in which we each have the opportunity to form vital personal relationships directly with our deities. Although Heathenism is a personal religion without dogma, and the actual personal spiritual practices of Heathen-folk vary as widely as do the people themselves, there are some concepts Heathens hold in common: the belief that everything is alive, that the Earth is holy, that we can speak directly to our Gods and Goddesses, that we are responsible for our own souls and behaviour, that freedom, honour, duty, loyalty, love, hospitality and courage are our highest principles. Our Gods and Goddesses are benevolent, and are aligned against the forces of destruction. Heathens respect all life, and our spiritual texts teach us that we are connected to all creation. According to the laws of Örlög what we do comes back to us.

Asatru represents a return to the natural faith and traditional values of our people, the religion of our ancestors. These values of family, equality, human freedom, individuality along with our virtues of Courage, Truth, Honour, Fidelity (loyalty), Discipline, Hospitality, Self Reliance, Industriousness, and Perseverance are needed now more than even in in today’s challenging world.

Equality of the sexes is one of the more outstanding features of the values of our cultural inheritance. Women were very highly respected in ancient Germanic society as healers, mothers, priestesses and magic workers. Ancient Germanic women had equal rights to men and possessed substantial powers far beyond anything else found in the rest of the ancient world in particular as well as the modern world in general: They had the right to own and inherit property, choose who she wanted to marry ( or re-marry), and even initiate a divorce from her husband if she so wished.

Most women's lives were usually bounded by hearth and home, but they had great influence within this sphere. The keys with which many were buried symbolize their responsibility for, and control over, the distribution of food and clothing to the household. Most women would have been engaged in spinning and other textile production much of the time.There are even legends that tell of women warriors. Some women made their mark through exceptional status or achievement. One of the richest burials of Viking Age Scandinavia is that of the Oseberg 'queen', buried in a very grand style with a richly-decorated ship and large numbers of high-quality grave goods

Both farming and trading were family businesses, and women were often left in charge when their husbands were away or dead. Also evidence that Women also could have made a living in trade and business commerce. Merchants' scales and weights found in female graves in Scandinavia and other Germanic lands are evidence of a strong association between women and trade. Unfortunately, the Judeo basis of Christianity is very negative towards women. The Christianization of Germanic Europe & Scandinavia gave women new roles and reduced them to second class citizens in the view of the religion, stature in society, and in the eyes of the law.

The Germanic peoples also had a highly developed legal system, perhaps the most democratic in the ancient world. Decisions were reached by voting at open meetings where all free men had the right to speak.
These ideals are manifest most clearly in Iceland, a colony settled by heathen Norwegians that were being persecuted and killed by the Christian king Olaf Tyrggvasson. In Iceland an aristo-democratic government was developed. This government was based on the ancient Althing; the Germanic judicial and legislative body made up of the entire population of Iceland. Thirty-six chieftains whose authority rested on the voluntary allegiance of the individual free-holding farmers controlled the Althing. These people were so dedicated to their ideals of freedom and equality that in 1000AD they passed a law forever abolishing slavery in Iceland.

The Germanic peoples introduced the concepts of democracy and a trail by Jury consisting of twelve jurors. This guaranteed the adherence to the ancient laws as the members of the Juries were committed to these laws. In this way, the "law flowed from the people." The concept of the Jury was unlike anything that had been previously seen on the mainland.

Another notable contribution of the Vikings is to the English legal system. Today the English-speaking peoples all over the world are governed by English Common Law instead of Roman law. Christianity tried, but could not change the underlying structure and ethos of the Germanic peoples as they clung too stubbornly to their old ways.
The Germanic peoples are contributed with the creation of the House of Commons and its parliamentary system of government. For as the people were all considered equal, they all gathered together to aid in the decision making process.
There was a version of the althing in all other Germanic countries as well. However, the thing began to loose power as Christianity and Feudalism came to be dominating factor and power structure throughout continental Europe.

Through their representative government were laws were made, altered and acted upon, called the Althing, they had elected their Chieftain who were called kings. These kings were democratically chosen for their intelligence, capabilities and strength in battle and were followed only so long as they proved themselves worthy. After the Viking invasion, the English had also chosen their kings through a process in which the royal council chose the most suitable member of the royal family. Because of this system, the English did not reconcile the concept of Legitimacy until well after the Norman invasion. They believed that the king was not above the law, and that the King existed only to serve their people. If they were dissatisfied with the ruling king they had the option of replacing him. The Magna Carta was the result of this ideal of Kingship. The lords were dissatisfied with their king, and therefore created a treaty to limit his power. The ancient Danish Saga of Beowulf was written in the 5th century, speaks of this ideal. It talks of a King who "Heaped troubles on his unhappy people's heads." He had become so swelled with his own wealth and power that "He deserved to suffer and die." Over a millennium after these words were first written they were echoed by the revolutionary writings of John Locke in the Declaration of Independence.

The commitment to compromise was brought to England first by the Angles, Saxons and Jutes. Later, it was reinforced by the Viking settlers. Most court cases then ( and now) were settled by compromise. The accepted tradition of fines for crimes evolved into the system of lawsuits, which is prevalent in this country. As is England a thousand years ago, every injury done to another citizen can be repaid through money.

The Viking's laws and customs dovetailed neatly into almost forgotten Anglo-Saxon traditions because they were the same people removed by a few hundred years. Their language and culture was similar, although continental notions of feudalism had influenced the English.

Far from being merely primitive plunderers, conquerors and uncouth barbarians, in more recent years, researchers have been piecing together a more accurate and complex picture of our heathen Germanic ancestors that sharply contradicts the stereotype of uncivilized and unkempt barbarians. Farming, husbandry, and the first attempts at shipbuilding began 6,000 years ago. There was active commercial contact with Mediterranean countries 4,000 years ago, when Baltic amber began flowing south in exchange for copper and tin. Highly ornamented art, jewelry and crafts were important to early Germanic culture. They offer further evidence that they were not just warriors, they were farmers, artists, poets, shipbuilders, inventors and innovators. More than anything, they were excellent traders and explorers who connected peoples from Baghdad to Scandinavia to the mainland of North America.

Germanic art found its expression in everyday objects—in furniture, swords, belts, horse harnesses. The Germanic artists & craftsmen used indigenous motifs from their ancestral religion and passed it on to the Celts in to what is now commonly known as "Celtic" art but is actually called "Hiberno Saxon" art.

But the Germanic Vikings were also driven by their innate pioneering spirit. Their most spectacular trek took them across the Atlantic Ocean to Iceland, Greenland, and eventually North America. Around A.D. 1000, hundreds of years before Christopher Columbus arrived in the New World, the Vikings landed in Newfoundland, Canada, a land they reportedly named Vinland.

The Germans from the Vikings Age are best known for their sea voyages. Along the coasts of Western Europe, they traveled to the Mediterranean and North Africa. By way of the Russian rivers, they reached Constantinople (present-day Istanbul) and beyond to Baghdad in Asia.

The Vikings quickly developed a fierce reputation. In letters to their bishops, Christian priests in Britain and France chronicled the violent deeds of the Vikings, which included attacking wealthy monasteries and killing women and children. (Many churchmen believed the Viking raids were God's punishment on the Anglo-Saxons for their sins.) But it was also in the interest of the churchmen to exaggerate the atrocities of the Vikings in their reports. Many of the Christian rulers at the time behaved equally unpleasantly, without being condemned on religious grounds.
Since many of the people of the various Germanic Tribes were unable to write, much of their history was recorded by Roman historians, British and French clergy—the very people who fell victim to their raids. It is no wonder that the Vikings have a reputation for mindless savagery.

In sharp contrast to the God of the Judaic Based religions ( Christianity, Islam, Judaism), who demands that their followers submit and subjugate themselves with fear by being meek & subservient. Our native Gods and Goddesses want us to live life to the fullest, and be smart, strong, sexual, courageous and creative beings.

The values and teachings of our ancient Gods emphasize intelligence, freedom, courage, strength, vigorous actions, responsibility, loyalty, fruitfulness and family. So popular were they, their names were given to the days of the week that are still used today:
The Ancient Germanic Gods and the days of the week

Environmentalism and ecology is a natural & integral part of our native religion, whereas Christianity advises to " seek dominion over the Earth and all the creatures wherein" and seeks to treat the earth as something to be used and controlled, Asatru promotes the concept of living in harmony with the earth, our fellow creatures, and the spirits of the land as a sign of respect for the divinity flowing throughout nature. We recognized that innumerable spirits inhabiting everything from stones to trees. All in the cosmos is alive, and has some level of consciousness.

Our ancient religion is highly evolved, and is as rich in symbolism and moral teachings as the ancient Greeks. Christianity did not displace the native Germanic heathenism because it was better, but because Christianity was organized, centralized and had made the eradication of heathenism one of its main goals!

During the early Middle Ages most of Europe was organized and unified by the Roman Catholic Church, who had turned the teachings of Christ into a political tool and was attempting to recreate the Roman Empire.
The Christian Kings and missionaries preached Christianity to their neighbours with fire, sword and murder. Their goals were nothing short of converting, killing or driving out every heathen from their midst. By brutal acts of Coercion, murder, torture, and rape they forced Christianity upon the Germanic peoples , Literally hundreds of thousands of innocent men, woman and children were killed and horrible atrocities were committed. Babies were burned alive, young woman were raped and torched in the name of Christ.
Fortunately due to our ancestors’ stubborn refusal to fully give up their religion, it was never eradicated. The spirituality, culture, and values of our native religion have been directly continued up to this very day in many forms.
Asatru is a religion in revival as opposed to a reconstructed spiritual practice. Asatru is a living tradition and has been continued in many forms that are thoroughly heathen in origin and practice yet have managed to survive virtually intact and unchanged by hiding under a thin veneer of Christianity laid upon that saved it from total destruction. In fact, much of the traditional and popular aspects of our present culture in the Western world is derived from our heathen Germanic ancestors. Our Religious and Cultural inheritance is immense; The majority of people in the western world unwittingly still celebrate the Germanic heathen holy calendar virtually unchanged from its Heathen origins with all their symbols, meanings and trappings: From the "12 Days of Yule" and Santa Claus, to Easter and the rabbit, and the Thanksgiving Harvest feast, the Heathen holy tides have clung to the Anglo-Germanic world. We still use the names of the days of the week, We still speak English - a Germanic language. The principles and methods in our legal system of law, and the very ethic of our society, revering honour and sacrifice for the community are hallmarks of our ancient religions endurance. Whether one has seen Lord of the Rings or read Grimm's Fairytales, reveled in the exploits of Beowulf - the ancient religion has survived albeit relegated to Myth and Legend or absorbed into Christianity. The Poetic Edda and Sagas, and other the remnants of our lore, remain in spite of the thin veneer of Christianity in the European world.

In modern times Asa-folk place their trust in the Aesir and Vanir families of Gods, just as our Heathen ancestors did long ago. Many wonderful Sagas, songs and legends survive to inform the practice of modern Asatru. Heathens today often are quite educated about and interested in these surviving Heathen texts, such as the Icelandic Eddas and Sagas, for they give us insight into the historic practice of our religion.
devesh
BRF Oldie
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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Post by devesh »

from the same website, a background lesson on the Germanic peoples. it's a different point of view from the usual Western narrative. interesting read.

http://www.odinsvolk.ca/GermanicPeoples.htm
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