J & K news and discussion

Ashley Kravitz · Post by **Ashley Kravitz** » 27 Sep 2010 04:35

Anybody here has links to news reports in which India has admitted and/or punished Police/Paramilitary/Army personnel involved in HR violations ?

Some Pakis are claiming in a gora forum that Indian government always suppresses credible investigation when such allegations are made. Need to prove them wrong.

Kindly PM me the links.

TIA

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Sep 2010 05:33

Pakis can claim what they want. No need for any rebuttal. They already showed their capability by shooting those poor kids.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 27 Sep 2010 08:49

Ashley Kravitz wrote:Anybody here has links to news reports in which India has admitted and/or punished Police/Paramilitary/Army personnel involved in HR violations ?

Some Pakis are claiming in a gora forum that Indian government always suppresses credible investigation when such allegations are made. Need to prove them wrong.

Kindly PM me the links.

TIA

http://sify.com/news/indian-army-acts-a ... ibjga.html

Interview with Army chief
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/speci ... ndtv-36856
NDTV: The allegations that is constantly brought in by human rights group is the abuse and the misuse by the Army.

Gen Singh: To date let me be very categorical. 98 per cent or more of these allegations when investigated have been found to be false. A lot of allegations are instigated. Unfortunately what happens is that the NGO or Human Rights organizations, they don't know in what circumstances we operate in. They feel anything can be possible. I think we need to be careful, but I think a great amount of care is taken that we do not...our troops have got strict instructions. Well, in somewhat manner aberrations may have occurred, but that doesn't means that act has been misused.

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 27 Sep 2010 10:18

All the subsidies given to J&K comes from Indian tax payers money, then why shouldn't Indians be allowed to settle there. Dump Article 370 written decades ago. so called J&K separatists needs India's money, but they wont respect our constituency. Why this double standard ? Why the heck are we allowing this ?
I hate this rediff - is it run by CIA agents ? Looks like they want J&K separated from India and given as a gift to Pak for their Af-Pak contributions.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 27 Sep 2010 12:15

Nihat wrote:There has recently been an announcement of a Rs. 100 Cr. education grant. I really do hope that a massive university does come up with this money, one which has all modern facilities but it MUST be based in Jammu for the simple reason that a lot of Kashmiri students need to get out and see the rest of India. They should not remained isolated in their confined forever. Till now, since they got everything @ home, there was never any reason to get out.

And on one good friday..after a religious gathering...KMs will torch the University bringing them to ground...all money waste...what International Airport? what visa offices?....everything will be torched....Nihat saar...what kashmir wants is not money and buildings....it needs discipline, responsibility and civic sense.

0 out of 100 in all three factors

.......even Lord Kubera will go bankrupt after touching Kashmir.

dada · Post by **dada** » 27 Sep 2010 12:40

deleted

Ramesh · Post by **Ramesh** » 27 Sep 2010 14:16

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... z10fktPcd3

It was inevitable.
P.s: Does anyone have the information on ownership of TOI.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Sep 2010 14:21

bennett coleman group.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 27 Sep 2010 17:48

delete

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 27 Sep 2010 18:17

@dada
Religious discussions, and discussion of Indian politics are NOT encouraged and discussions that have these topics in them are liable to be locked or deleted at the discretion of the forum admins. We need your knowledge and experience - and as far as possible please try not to post idle speculation.

@Nihat
Cooperation and understanding is actively sought from forum members, as well as well thought out intellectual contributions. If you have knowledge, don't display it as fancy jargon. Write an article, or put up your thoughts and opinions so that others can understand and gain from you. And remember - opinions will vary, so don't be upset if someone disagrees with you - or if you are upset - don't reply with an angry post. There will always be someone who disagrees with your viewpoint.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 27 Sep 2010 18:41

Sure, I understand - Sorry for the spontanious reply but when someone talks out of their musharaf just like that then feels like a personal insult. I would be more careful in the future.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 27 Sep 2010 18:50

Nihat wrote: when someone talks out of their musharaf just like that

That is open for debate but
Religious discussions, and discussion of Indian politics are NOT encouraged and discussions that have these topics in them are liable to be locked or deleted at the discretion of the forum admins. We need your knowledge and experience - and as far as possible please try not to post idle speculation.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 Sep 2010 19:16

I think Nihat post is very understandble given the post by DADA which way out of the line, if predators are there anywhere I think he might invite a ban.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 27 Sep 2010 19:29

^Two wrongs is not equal to right(IMO).

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Sep 2010 19:45

hulaku wrote: They deserve to be a part of the the piss and pork land so be it. Why is it so hard for people to understand ?

Why give them what they want? What do we get in return? They can go to Pakistan by all means. But not for free.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Sep 2010 19:48

Ashley Kravitz wrote:
Some Pakis are claiming in a gora forum that Indian government always suppresses credible investigation when such allegations are made. Need to prove them wrong.

You know - you are showing Indic dharmic honesty by trying to tell the truth. The way to deal with this is to deny that any rights have been abused at all. Paki are all liars. Call them liars first. Go on the offensive. Get them ranting. Explanations can come later. We lose nothing. We have all spent too many years trying to be honest and sincere.

archan · Post by **archan** » 27 Sep 2010 20:07

dada, you post has been deleted and we hope you won't repeat that kind of stuff here. No official warnings this time, as you past record is clean. Generalizations are seldom true. Others, it is just easy to report such posts instead of arguing with the user in question. Then someone comes and mediates and the purpose of the thread is lost. Enough OT now, lets get back on J&K.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Sep 2010 20:16

Thomas Kolarek wrote:All the subsidies given to J&K comes from Indian tax payers money, then why shouldn't Indians be allowed to settle there. Dump Article 370 written decades ago. so called J&K separatists needs India's money, but they wont respect our constituency. Why this double standard ? Why the heck are we allowing this ?
I hate this rediff - is it run by CIA agents ? Looks like they want J&K separated from India and given as a gift to Pak for their Af-Pak contributions.

Thomas you have hit upon modern India's dilemma. Your idea that the golden rule applies : he who gives the gold should make the rules is at variance with the pseudo-feudal democracy of India. kashmir is a fedual setup which survives on baksheesh from Dilli darbar. The PM is still called Wazir-e-alam in Kashmir.

The fight between the Abdullahs and the Sayeeds is a feudal fight to see who gets to recieve the baksheesh. In the drama the Wahabis snatched/staged a coup on the movement.

As to Rediff, look at the simple test: Do their arguements advance Indian interests- political, economic, cultural and security. Its simple up or down in each sphere. Tally the total and make your determination.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 27 Sep 2010 20:17

shiv wrote:
Ashley Kravitz wrote:
Some Pakis are claiming in a gora forum that Indian government always suppresses credible investigation when such allegations are made. Need to prove them wrong.
You know - you are showing Indic dharmic honesty by trying to tell the truth. The way to deal with this is to deny that any rights have been abused at all. Paki are all liars. Call them liars first. Go on the offensive. Get them ranting. Explanations can come later. We lose nothing. We have all spent too many years trying to be honest and sincere.

Usually I say that I 400% agree especially since it comes from GOP who have 400% credibility built up over the years by "U2 did not take off from Pakistan, Pak did not support Soviet Jihad, AQ Khan acted alone, Pak army did not kill anyone in Bangladesh, Pak army was not in Kargil, Kasab is not Pakistani, Pak does not support Taliban...." and ask them if they have any other 400% credible allegations to make. And watch the tamasha when they tie themselves into a knot on why each one of these statements was in fact true and/or were made due to contingency

This is how you lay IED Mubaraks.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 27 Sep 2010 20:40

Anujan wrote: You know - you are showing Indic dharmic honesty by trying to tell the truth. The way to deal with this is to deny that any rights have been abused at all. Paki are all liars. Call them liars first. Go on the offensive. Get them ranting. Explanations can come later. We lose nothing. We have all spent too many years trying to be honest and sincere.

Usually I say that I 400% agree especially since it comes from GOP who have 400% credibility built up over the years by "U2 did not take off from Pakistan, Pak did not support Soviet Jihad, AQ Khan acted alone, Pak army did not kill anyone in Bangladesh, Pak army was not in Kargil, Kasab is not Pakistani, Pak does not support Taliban...." and ask them if they have any other 400% credible allegations to make. And watch the tamasha when they tie themselves into a knot on why each one of these statements was in fact true and/or were made due to contingency

This is how you lay IED Mubaraks.[/quote]

And in the context of J&K: "we only support right of self determination" not intention to grab the valley, and of course the mother of all lies: "we give only moral and diplomatic support" when we all know that but for TSPA/LET/ISI, tjhere is no "core issue" worth talking about.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 27 Sep 2010 21:32

Nihat wrote:Sure, I understand - Sorry for the spontanious reply but when someone talks out of their musharaf just like that then feels like a personal insult. I would be more careful in the future.

Nihatji..am I that someone? I missed your reply{you've edited}..I am now wondering if my reply to your post sounded like a personal insult....in that case..I am really sorry...its just an attempt to understand psyche of an average kashmiri..apologies again.

Peace

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 27 Sep 2010 22:10

hulaku wrote:^^^^ Sirji

I give you a link of my discussion with some purelanders and goras on Kashmir. Go through it

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... adly-riots

And this
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ost5205550

And my favourite
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ost5194933

Dear Hulaku

I went through the links you provided and of course I could not proceed further as those threads look like rants or flame.
I do not want to answer some of the points raised there in this forum as it would be wrong as members here won't get the benefit of what I am replying to or those ranters won't get to read the reply to their points.

I I would advise you to make those points here and members including I would strive best to reply to that.

But first , I think you need to change your attitude towards Kashmiris , be it Muslims or non Muslims , Hindus or non Hindus.

And Please DO not use F word for them.

Kashmir is a long standing problem aggravated , not in the least, by Pakistan and few of their cronies in J&K. And they do not represent the popular will of the State.

As regards legal position of J&K , its accession to India and UN resolution and Art 370 and Law and Order all are different issues to be discussed separately as different points are argued.

I also hope you make your point when you are not drunk.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 27 Sep 2010 22:28

shiv wrote:
hulaku wrote: They deserve to be a part of the the piss and pork land so be it. Why is it so hard for people to understand ?
Why give them what they want? What do we get in return? They can go to Pakistan by all means. But not for free.

I dont know if there is ban for them to move to their "peeloved"land of Poakland. They are free to settle in Lahore , Karachi, Queta,Peshawar or Islamabad. Soon in due course of time , there will cease to exist any distiction and become 400% Pakistani in and out with hardened Musharraf.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 27 Sep 2010 22:58

hulaku wrote:^^^
Sir the Hindus have already left/ driven out / killed.

What could be a better punishment for these imbeciles than to hand them over to Paquistan?

And treat every Kashmiri Muslim in India where they have shops in all 5* hotels and tourist destinations as Pakistanis and tell them to leave and join the Land of the Pure.

People ranting here doesnt help. See the reality and do it. As I said before I dont want to see a single soldier of ours to lose his life because of the aspirations of these Kashmiri Islaimists. They deserve to be a part of the the piss and pork land so be it. Why is it so hard for people to understand ?

Wrong

Last time I checked there were Hindus in Jammu , Ladakh and in Kashmir. So not all Hindus have left.

Pakistan doesn't want KMs , they want all of J&K. mostly opinion are divided and there are at least three choices and accordingly groupings
-Merger with Pakistan. This group doesn't give a damn to what happens to Ladakh and Jammu. Pakistan uses them but want other province as well .

-Freedom from both India and Pakistan This group wants a separate country. Those living in India occasionally side with the first group and also gets help from Pakistan in so far as this help keeps India occupied.

-Third group is most problematic. This group know the reality and uses all these sentiments to exact high prices from India and retain their hold on power , be it Muftis or Sheikhs.

Besides these there is what a member called a silent majority and support full integration with India.That includes both KMs and others.

But just like silent majority in other areas they are not able to come out and support their cause. It is just like one criminal silences many by use of forces and threat of violence.They need support of the state to ensure that peace is restored and their voices can be heard above the din created by noisy few. You would have seen how Parliament is held up by few MPs going to the well. Same prevails here as well. Hence the State Machinery has to restore the calm by various means, contain violence and make sure people go about their life in normal manner. Then one can talk to civil society and understand what they want.

What these people in first and second group fear is that if calm is restored then their lies would be exposed for what they are.

The moment Pakistan stops interfering in J&K the three groups would loose their hold and voices of people would be heard.
So India has to deal with Pakistan and neutralise their capacity to hold Kashmir to ransom through their mouthpieces.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 27 Sep 2010 23:13

Venkarl wrote:
Nihat wrote:Sure, I understand - Sorry for the spontanious reply but when someone talks out of their musharaf just like that then feels like a personal insult. I would be more careful in the future.
Nihatji..am I that someone? I missed your reply{you've edited}..I am now wondering if my reply to your post sounded like a personal insult....in that case..I am really sorry...its just an attempt to understand psyche of an average kashmiri..apologies again.

Peace

No, i was not referring to your post. I was talking about a certain poster named 'dada'.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 28 Sep 2010 01:09

chanakya, exactly right. The stone chucking protests are fuelled by people in Islamabad and their slaves in Srinagar who fear that the people of J&K may come to live normal peaceful happy lives and enjoy all the social, political and economic advantages and opportunities that come from being a part of the great democratic Republic of India. In many ways these protests are a sign of the opposite of what is being claimed by the islamist terrorists. The islamist terrorists claim that there is general discontent in J&K and the protests are a manifestation of the discontent. The reality is that the peaceful silent majority in J&K is increasingly content, are looking to lead normal lives as citizens of India resident in J&K, and this is what the islamist terrorists cannot tolerate or accept. So, the islamist terrorists have to look for ways and means of spreading discontent, and lying about the actions of the security forces and the government is one such method. As the lies were not working, the islamist terrorists are trying to manufacture 'repression' by throwing stones at security forces, attacking public property, etc. They know that the security forces are duty bound to respond to these acts of criminal vandalism and assault, and in their hearts of hearts the islamist terrorists are hoping that the security forces somewhere loose their cool and massacre a few protesters, which will obviously make the security forces and the Government of India 'look bad'. Thus far our security forces have behaved with great competence, and the plans of the islamist terrorists are being frustrated. That old fool Gilani is such an idiot: telling people to not send their children to school.

Also, this stuff about 'suffocating' presence of security forces is such hogwash. Most people are delighted to have lots of security forces in their area as it means less scope for chors, badmaash, etc to create trouble. Cantonments all over India are the safest and cleanest place for anyone to live and work!

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 28 Sep 2010 01:38

Not only that. Outside the urban centers of the Kashmir valley, who do you suppose is the BIGGEST customer in J&K for the local wood-choppers, goat-herders, cart-pullers, poultry farmers, vegetable vendors, tailors, mechanics, construction labourers, drivers, mule tenders, small manufacturers, barbers, cooks, sweepers etc. etc. etc.?

Who pays money for the goods and services, that these people provide for a living? As it is, Article 370 has severely limited the extent to which all these products of J&K can enjoy a market in other parts of India.

Take the army out of J&K and the state's economy will collapse entirely. As it already has in the urban centers where honest hardworking shopkeepers and merchants are routinely threatened into closing down their shutters by the voices of freedom and democracy.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 28 Sep 2010 01:45

Taser's

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/09/ ... shock.html

I felt at one time that Taser's were a good idea to distribute amongst police/CRPF forces in the valley but seems that even this is too mild for the Radicals and will only raise the temperature without any substantial benefits.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 28 Sep 2010 01:55

Letters to the Editor

http://www.hindu.com/2010/09/28/stories ... 081202.htm

Geelani's call

Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Geelani's appeal to parents not to send their wards to school and join the complete strike programme (Sept. 27) is absolutely wrong. Children are the future of Kashmir. If they are forced to stay at home, who will run the State? I am also a student in Kashmir. Let us assume I do not go to school and, some time later, my State gets ‘freedom.' Of what use will it be to illiterate people? If I remain illiterate and I am not able to communicate with others effectively due to illiteracy ... is it freedom for me?

Kashmiris say we want freedom, but I think they must know what freedom means. If India gives us freedom, we have to draw new borders. We will become a closed society. First, there was a conflict between India and Britain, then between India and Pakistan, and now the Indian troops and the people of Kashmir. In future, there will be fights among Sikhs, Shias, Sunnis, etc.

The solution to issues does not lie in fighting one another and confining ourselves to little borders. We all need to cooperate with one another. All of us are human beings. There is no religion — there is only humanity. We have to cultivate friendly ties with one another. That alone will provide the solution to Kashmir and India.

Rohool Nissar Banka,

Student,

Srinagar

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 28 Sep 2010 02:50

NYT report on Schools re-opening

Nice bait by PC to TSP

“How can any right thinking person pelt stones on school buses?” he asked in a statement.

Wonder how TSP will respond. If the situation continues to remain normal, especially as Obama arrives, TSP won't have much to show for all this circus

. But then again ISI nust be working overtime with a strategy to get Obama's attention. Stay tuned.

Ashley Kravitz · Post by **Ashley Kravitz** » 28 Sep 2010 03:52

NDTV: Burkha Mutt's interview with Arun Jaitley . Mr. Jaitley handled Burkha in an excellent manner.
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-bu ... ley/165922

James B · Post by **James B** » 28 Sep 2010 05:20

Ashley Kravitz wrote:NDTV: Burkha Mutt's interview with Arun Jaitley . Mr. Jaitley handled Burkha in an excellent manner.
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-bu ... ley/165922

I think current GoI doesn't even have 10% clarity of what Arun Jaitley has. I hope GoI listens to his suggestions on J&K. Very well articulated.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 28 Sep 2010 05:43

Arun Jaitley was very articulate while presenting the understanding of the ground situation. My guess is Barkha Madam is also convinced enough that the separatists' viewpoint is only to obfuscate people into believing that Azadi is the main cause.

Btw, Shri Jaitley should take care of his health, he was once a more fitter man than what he is now.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 28 Sep 2010 06:19

suryag wrote:Arun Jaitley was very articulate while presenting the understanding of the ground situation. My guess is Barkha Madam is also convinced enough that the separatists' viewpoint is only to obfuscate people into believing that Azadi is the main cause.

Btw, Shri Jaitley should take care of his health, he was once a more fitter man than what he is now.

I agree, he is a leader of national standing and the guy is articulate. I read somewhere he does have high BP problems. All of us we go into mid 40's have t take care of our health. (I better go now and sweat it in the gym

). I look forward to watching the whole interview later tonight.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 28 Sep 2010 06:56

Excellent interview....Barkha tried to trouble Jaitely ji but woww..Jaitely saahab's points are full of substance that Burkha couldn't disagree with......she might have realized that her views would be against the State of India if she disagrees with Jaitely saahab....hats off to him.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 28 Sep 2010 07:15

^^^Also, it helped that barkha wasn't holding ~~fort~~ court in 'we the people' or some such scripted BS to breathe life into anti-nationalitis. Barqa couldn't inveigle, tweed, twist and manipulate as easily as she does in a place where she sets the rules. In interviews, rules are agreed between the 2 people concerned, so the field is far less unbalanced.

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Sep 2010 09:25

Manishw wrote:Taser's

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/09/ ... shock.html

I felt at one time that Taser's were a good idea to distribute amongst police/CRPF forces in the valley but seems that even this is too mild for the Radicals and will only raise the temperature without any substantial benefits.

IIRC, useless tool when murderous mobs are coming to lynch you..the Taser will have only a few feet range and by the time one protestor is tased and the wires pulled back, rest of the crowd will be onto the policeman since he is anyways so close to get into TASER range...

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 28 Sep 2010 10:32

I don't understand why can't they employ water canons? They should have at least a few dozens of them always ready. Filling them up quickly is no problem, there is Dal lake in Srinagar and there are rivers and streams everywhere else.

If they don't have them they should buy them from abroad on an emergency basis.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 28 Sep 2010 10:52

I finally got to watch the entire interview with Jaitly. Pity guys like him don't get to be PM. And its even more of a pity that Steve Coll like US strategist morons will label him a "Hindu extremist" for opposing US strategy of diluting Indian soverignty in the valley to appease TSP. Excellent interview, and I am sure most of the residents in the valley except the worst separatist scum listening to him would come away agreeing with his reasonable & humane approach to the common man, and a no nonsense approach to the Paki puppets. None of this "willing to walk the extra mile" or "India's & TSP's destinies are linked" crap which Jaitly rightly labels as kneeling before the separatists.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 28 Sep 2010 11:41

CRamS wrote:I finally got to watch the entire interview with Jaitly. Pity guys like him don't get to be PM. And its even more of a pity that Steve Coll like US strategist morons will label him a "Hindu extremist" for opposing US strategy of diluting Indian soverignty in the valley to appease TSP. Excellent interview, and I am sure most of the residents in the valley except the worst separatist scum listening to him would come away agreeing with his reasonable & humane approach to the common man, and a no nonsense approach to the Paki puppets. None of this "willing to walk the extra mile" or "India's & TSP's destinies are linked" crap which Jaitly rightly labels as kneeling before the separatists.

his insight into matters like Kashmir is marked by amazing clarity, there is no look here shhot there in his talk. I do hope, wish and pray that one day he can be India's PM.

On a different note, here's something beyond stupid which assumes that CRPF troopers will risk being killed for Rs. 2500.

Jawans to get cash rewards for restraint in J&K