Funny how the pics go in reverse order. Like Paki thinking,Anujan wrote:BBC urdu has photos of rescue operations for the ghazis who got their 72 in Siachen
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/multimedia/20 ... e_tk.shtml
Lately, however, having found the human and financial cost of maintaining its troops there unmanageable, the Indians have reportedly been making diplomatic moves to persuade Pakistan to disengage from Siachen. Pakistan, however, maintains that Siachen has always been part of Pakistan; hence, India should vacate the area, as it was the aggressor to occupy a portion of it back in 1984.
Rsoami- which link are you quoting from , its really laughable.RSoami wrote:This is what the ghazis have to say about Siachen
Lately, however, having found the human and financial cost of maintaining its troops there unmanageable, the Indians have reportedly been making diplomatic moves to persuade Pakistan to disengage from Siachen. Pakistan, however, maintains that Siachen has always been part of Pakistan; hence, India should vacate the area, as it was the aggressor to occupy a portion of it back in 1984.
Except in the BENIS thread or is it now taboo there as well?Anujan wrote:deff and dumb links are not halal.
Shiv,shiv wrote:It was Noam Chomsky who sort of opened my eyes to something that I used to wonder about. Chomsky put words to descibe the thought. "Right wing" or "Extreme" regimes are dumb only in fairy tales or Mad magazine. They have reached the top because they are rational players.
More to the point, the Pakistani army, while openly admitting that it is focused against India and openly supporting everything that is anti-India, is clever enough to understand that if they suppressed all sentiment that goes against their "anti-India" stance they end up "looking like" extremists/right wingers. Looking like extremists extracts a price of its own because friends and aid givers have their own dynamics and do not want to be seen helping a Hitler, but would be happy to help a more moderate looking despot/regime.
It is absolutely Chankian for the Pakistan army to tolerate Zardari like moves - including One friggin million in greenbacks to a dargah. This may be Zardari's private money but we know how Zardari made his money.
The lesson here is that India too cannot afford to act anti-Pakistan all the time. With Pakistanis being Chankian enough to make gestures that appear like friendship, India will ultimately end up being branded the extremist. It always pays to keep extreme viewpoints hidden from view or expressed as a footnote. That is why India cannot always spurn and reject everything that Pakistan says.
Now consider this. Pakistan makes a move that appears like conciliation/friendship. We all know that Pakistan is not honest in doing that. We detect deceit and guile in what Pakistan is doing. Because we (BRF) know that Pakistan is actually deceitful, we want India to reject that outright. But for reasons I mentioned above India cannot reject such things outright. This is not weakness or softness, it is the way the world works. As a digression I think many of you read the reaction on the forum when one member expressed extreme views on homosexuality instead of nodding, smiling and going with the "moderate, tolerant" flow. In real life it is not always wise to say up front what you believe. Better to pretend and not make waves. That applies to international diplomacy as much as interpersonal relationships. With Zardari being allowed to stay in power AND visit India AND donate money to a shrine in India, the Pakistan army comes across as moderate and tolerant, playing second fiddle to the civilian "administration" under Zardari. If India makes aggressive statements and actions it will be India that gets branded on the international stage as an aggressor who means ill will to its neighbours. Ultimately these things matter.
It is partly because many on BRF always see Indian moves as stupid or weakness and we brand certain people such as MMS as useless that we are unable to see a funny move when it hits us in the face. Manmohan's offer of "helping Pakistan in the rescue work after the avalanche" was actually a hilarious masterstroke and returned the compliment given when Pakis offered to help after the Bhuj earthquake. It puts Pakis in an Ajit liquid oxygen situation. If they refuse help, India can say "We offered, Pakistan refused". If they accept, it would be hilarious to see the Indian army crawling all over a Pakistan army battalion HQ in the name of humanitarian work - to be splashed in the media all over the world.
Unlike most men accused in acid attacks, Mr. Khar comes from a wealthy, powerful background. His family owns vast swaths of rich farmland in Punjab Province; his father, Mustafa, is a former provincial governor; his first cousin Hina Rabbani Khar is Pakistan's foreign minister.
Mr. Khar went on the run, and was declared a fugitive in early 2002. But when the trial started a year later, after Mr. Khar had been caught and arrested, the case quickly crumbled. Although four witnesses testified to seeing him enter Ms. Younas's home the night of the attack, all later retracted their statements. Earlier, they had complained of intimidation by Mr. Khar, but the judge paid little notice, and in December 2003 he dismissed the case.
"Had she been a politician's daughter or a general's daughter, then we would have seen what would have happened," Ms. Durrani said. "But who was going to fight for a dancing girl?"
Other Pakistanis, however, showed little interest in the case. Newspapers, even liberal ones, gave the story scant coverage. Gen. Pervez Musharraf's government dragged its heels over issuing a passport to Ms. Younas, concerned that the case would hurt Pakistan's image.
Neela you have to answer your own questions. I can only say what I can see. I have written much about some of the things you ask and will not repeat them here. India has every need to show itself as a victim of terror. Only short memories will forget that in the 80s and 90s the terrorism India faced was from freedom fighters and supported by freedom loving countries. So it was not terorism at all. Terrorism started in the world only after September 9th 2001. If you feel Indian diplomats have failed I cannot argue against that. India is a failed nation on many counts and Indians know that better than most. Arguing that india has not failed somewhere is much more difficult than agreeing with it and "going with the flow". But you must remember that Pakistan is also the victim of terror, and Pakistan has lost more men in the war against terror than India.- India has no need to shown as the victim of aggression here. If India needs to do that, it shows that our diplomats/policy have/has failed in the media/whatever war to capitalise on
real, palpable events that have happened.
India has been a victim of terror only after 9-11. Before that there was an insurgency in various places where freedom loving people were fighting against the tyrannical Hindu dominated armed forces of India. Even so Indians terrorized and killed thousands of Muslims in Guj-rat in 2003 showing that Pakistan's fears and accusations are not entirely false.- How long should a country be seen as a victim of aggression, 5, 10, 20 or 30 years. ?Why has GoI not pushed for complete disarming of Pakistan?
Of course the government is incompetent. The next government will always do better. I have observed that since 1975 at least.Riddle me this then - _what_ _does_ _that_ _tell_ _you_ of _GoIs _problem_ _solving_abilities_?
Ask an Indian intelligence official about the challenge involved in tracking Lashkar-e-Taiba operatives inside Pakistan and they all give the same answer . Most officers who have served in Pakistan say that India has the capability to hit the terror group in Pakistan, but the government doesn't allow such covert actions. "We don't do covert operations like the CIA, MI6 and Mossad. This doesn't mean that we don't have the capability. Given a chance, we could prove equal to all these agencies," says a former officer.
But sources in the R&AW , India's external agency, say India lacks both political will and the capability to carry out a hit inside Pakistan. "We do not have the mandate to do what Mossad does. Our charter does not include the job of getting (or assassinating) people from other countries. If such political will is there, the agency would be able to do it," says a senior RAW official.
In fact, over the past two decades the agency has even lost some of its capability for covert operations abroad. "During the 1980s, the agency used to have two Counter Intelligence Teams (CITs) in Pakistan: one targeting the country and the other targeting Khalistani militant infrastructure. However, during Prime Minister I K Gujral's time, both these teams were dismantled and the extensive human intelligence network in Pakistan was scaled down," says another official. "Done purely on moral grounds, this severely affected our capability. That structure has as yet not been restored as the political class here believes that covert operations spoil bilateral relations," he adds. The agency, sources say, now conducts operations primarily by paying money to local operatives in Pakistan instead of its own agents. But such groups can't hit out at ISI-protected figures like Hafiz Saeed and Dawood Ibrahim. Another former officer , who has spent a considerable time studying these outfits, attributes it to the fundamental difference between India and Pakistan in dealing with espionage. "It takes a great deal of money and time to cultivate sources in foreign soil. We don't have either in plenty, unlike countries in the West. Pakistan's ISI is better off in this as the state sponsors terrorism ," he says.
In order to surmount the challenges on the ground, most intelligence officers believe that they need better equipment for surveillance as well as the go-ahead for covert tactics. "The direction finders we used before would give us kilometre per square information about somebody we wanted to track. We knew he was there somewhere but couldn't pinpoint his location. Now, of course, we have better technology . But if you pit it against what the Americans use, there is a lot of catching up to do. However, even with smarter technology we cannot do much unless our government allows us to do covert operations. You will see the difference then."
It seem that TSP is on same ship as Iran with one exception Iranians do know & understand the word 'strategy' .Iran: Special comment: Summary. On the eve of nuclear talks, the talks themselves are the best evidence that sanctions are influencing the leaders in Tehran. (TSP establishment's move in sending Zardari to be read can be seen in same light) Life is not normal in Iranian towns, based on anecdotal reporting, but the sanctions are not causing serious distortions to daily normal life so as to force changes to national policy. They are beginning to impoverish working families, but appear to be having the greatest negative impact on merchants and government agents who depend on international trade, which is the primary target pool.(We have heard the expected Lahori response on Indo-TSP trade but at same time we have not heard a single voice from the main trading hub of TSP ie Karachi & its the Karachi trader that runs the show when it comes to their sea trade , yes pakjabis have land & industries but ultimately its the Karachi trader that does the deals for their rice & pickles in Europe via their Middle East companies . Its the same pool that wants to trade with India & Zardari's visit also had this angle for most of these Karachi traders lahoris are completely unreliable bunch & they want an alternative & want to become a power center on their own & guess who will help !) That probably includes transactions related to the nuclear program. The sanctions do not appear to have built pressure to stop existing programs, but appear to have succeeded in inhibiting future technological breakthroughs.(again very true what fellow BRFites have said about more than likely possibility of averting deadlier 26/11 . US arm twisting & PRC's advise carries the same message not now & new no for time being) The Iranians must make do with what they have.(so guess what the Jihadis will do , they become politicians & start demonstrations under a new banner) Background Government's under stress fall inward, seeking to find a quantity, set and quality of services they can sustain within a defined, but shrinking territory in usually longer time intervals. For example, if garbage collection covers a whole city twice a week in normal times, it will be less frequent and cover only parts of the city under conditions of austerity or other forms of stress. Thus garbage collection is, in fact, a diagnostic indicator of the health of a government. The public health system depends on it. As part of this contraction, governments will give up programs in order to conserve a diminishing resource pool. They also begin new programs to conserve resources. Iran is doing all of this. (so is TSPA , it cannot attack India , it cannot stand its off duty soldiers on another 26/11 but it can always send them on demonstrations where else but in Karachi to show its working & sending the message top down , need to defend the citadel & Unkil's reward on Hafiz Saeed makes it more convincing . Its not essential that US & TSPA came up together on the reward thing but both had their motives . For TSPA it fits fine with its current objective of keeping Jihadis in check this coming summer !)
In violent instability scenarios, the fallback often includes temporarily abandoning difficult-to-defend pieces of the national territory in order to shorten internal supply lines and reduce the strain on an over-extended military force. This is a process called finding the lines the government can hold -- civil, military and geographic. The situation in Iran - new normality The Iranian government is managing to maintain normality in the quality, quantity and set of services that it provides nationwide. That means the sanctions have created no reasons for popular pressure to alter national defense and foreign policy, including the nuclear program.( TSPA doing the same keeping the pot boiling this time in TSP land not in J&K ie place changed but not the content & intent ) Living conditions are getting more difficult, but are not yet unbearable so as to generate public civil disorders. Effects on national programs One near immediate impact was the suspension of the second phase of President Ahmadi-nejad's subsidy restructuring program, which aims to end gradually the government practice of making cash payouts to citizens for food and energy. Parliament passed the subsidy reform plan in January 2010. The increased sanctions have forced the government to restore subsidies and created strain between Ahmadi-nejad and the Parliament because Parliament must approve the changes the president has ordered ex parte. Ahmadi-nejad's government appears to be drawing on Iran's hard currency reserves to finance this and other adjustments to maintain civil normality. (TSP establishment being told over & over again by messangers from its 3 & half friends to increase revenue yet at same time they will not allow situation to get worse . MMS's offer of power export under pressure from 3 & 1/2 friends but true to his Babu background it won't happen ) . Another programmatic impact is Iran also has had to buy extra wheat on the international market in the first quarter of 2012 and probably will be required to do so later this year. Iran purchased up to 3 million metric tons of wheat in March - nearly a year's worth, at least partially in anticipation of worsening sanctions. Vendors have included the United States because the sanctions do not extend to food. Iran bought 120,000 metric tons of US wheat in March and another 60,000 tons in April, as part of the program of stockpiling grain against more sanctions. Stockpiling is an important indicator of government stress. It is a non-normal government action aimed at maintaining reasonable living standards for the population under worsening conditions. Agricultural experts judge Iran's grain harvests will be low because of poor rainfall, forcing Iran to continue to be active in the agricultural commodities markets all year. The government has devalued the money and imposed currency controls. It also has banned the import of 600 items. Imports and exports have declined, because everything relies on petroleum products and on access to international banking facilities, which are suspended for Iran's largest banks. Belgium's termination of Iranian access to SWIFT - the international banking telecommunications grid -- has been the single most effective sanction imposed on Iran thus far and is responsible for almost all the hardships discussed in this evaluation. Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei personally announced a 'Buy made in Iran" campaign on 3 April. Parliament speaker Larijani urged Iranians to not buy foreign goods. This is without recent precedent. Iranian crude production has dropped 700,000 barrels per day owing to cuts by customers. It is expected to drop another 300,000 barrels per day by July, according to oil experts. The irony is that the high price of crude has provided a windfall for Iran, which it has a hard time liquidating or spending because the largest Iranian banks are not connected to the international grid. Effects on Iranians The economy is predicted to be stagnant in 2012: no growth because Iran cannot sell its products or compensate unless it sells more crude. Unemployment is 15.3% and is expected to grow as businesses close or lay off workers. The official inflation rate is 21.5% in 2011, up from 4.25% in 2010 and higher than the inflation rate in Egypt or Syria. The real rate is probably much higher because governments tend to peg inflation to rises in the cost of durable goods, not food and energy. Iran is experiencing, or near to experiencing, hyper-inflation, which is a spark for public protests and pressure on the government. Iranians have been hit with an official devaluation of the rial for any purchases from abroad as well as an internal devaluation of their labor because of the domestic inflation rate. As yet there are no reports of food and goods shortages that cannot be ascribed to distribution problems, not including imported items. Shortages of essential commodities - grain, cooking oil, and heating oil - that cannot be obtained at any price lead to government overthrows. Watch for distress slaughtering of farm animals as a leading indicator of food shortages. (We will know if situation is/ will be getting worse for TSPA if it ever decides to put Hafij Saeed & some of his followers on table for offer. For me this will be a good benchmark on the real situation of TSPA & co ). Essential imports, such as spare and repair parts for key industries, remain subsidized. Iran is willing to pay a high premium to use work-around arrangements to maintain essential foreign trade. (too good to miss in coming days we will know via open sources what TSPA has brought on table more than in past in order to get bare minimal military assistance from US . This will happen for sure as its minimal required to keep their equipment working . We all remember Mushy's days & his glorious achievement in rendering iirc 1/3 rd of frontline TSPA div.s out of order sign during Op. Prakaram) Sadly Gen. Kayani changed that ) However, no countries want to be paid in Iranian rials. The sanctions might have already succeeded in cutting foreign assistance, purchased or donated, to the Iranian nuclear program. The Iranians appear to be on their own for high technology support. = TSPA on its own when it comes to getting nuke sub & gen 5 fighter jet & what ever is its equal on ground so no new game changers for TSPA from its traditional supporters As for low technology, the one mixed blessing for Iran is that China is willing to work with Iran and sell second and third hand production knockouts to Iran to replace much higher quality goods from Europe and the US. One probably unanticipated side-effect of the sanctions is to drive Iran into greater dependency on China for daily consumer items. Against this backdrop, the Iranian leadership's decision to agree to talks appears to be a damage control measure. Against the outsiders, it is another temporizing gesture to help weaken the momentum of sanctions. Towards Iranians, talks appear intended to reassure the electorate that the leadership is reasonable, has walked the extra mile, and is not to blame for the coming hardship. The record of the past few months suggests that the western policy of collective punishment of all Iranians for leadership decisions will work in time. Hyperinflation and shortages of food and essential oils will produce civil disturbances, but not until after the next harvest.
Or maybe dus percenti was asking for asylum if things get too hot in return for dus percent of his...er savings as donation to .. er some trusts which arevdutta wrote:It has been bothering me since last few days. what did they talk in 10 min "private and one to one meeting" between zardari and MMS. in fact what can you talk in 10 mins. its hardly any time to discuss even your hair style. and why private meeting? why cant they talk in front of their aides.
may be zardari wanted to talk about his inability to control the army or brought a confidential message from his establishment.
or did he bring some document to exchange with singh which he couldnt have done through establishment monitored official channels?
ramana, the importance of the location is with respect to AGPL on Saltoro and not LOC. Just for reference, it is 35kms due north of Turtok on LOC.ramana wrote:<SNIP>Rohitvats how far from LOC are these avalanches in POK?
Passion for cricket in Pakistan remains undiminished, however, and corporate interest has reignited the PCB’s efforts to start a Pakistan Premier League (PPL), modelled on the megabucks Indian Premier League.
But Pakistani players, who are usually a major draw in India
It is not the first time the PPL idea has been floated. Former PCB chairman Naseem Ashraf wanted to launch a league to rival the IPL, but he had to quit after military ruler Pervez Musharraf was ousted and the idea was dropped.
I sincerely request pakis to deliver this message to those done and dusted 135Chinese Embassy here Tuesday said it was shocked to learn that about 135 people were buried due to the avalanche occurred on April 7 at Siachen glacier. Condolences for those who have lost their lives, and sympathy to their families have been conveyed through the government and military leaders of Pakistan, the Embassy said. A spokesman of the embassy said, they are worried about the safety of the buried persons and wished to convey the same to the government and the people of Pakistan.
And to top thisOnce we are assured of a God-fearing, honest head of government, we can all do our bit. Then, perhaps, the common man will follow suit - my dhoodh wallah will not mix water in his milk; my kaam wali will not need supervision while working in my house; we’ll start respecting the law again; my children will not think it is okay for them to cheat or plagiarise; we will stop misusing our job authority or facilities for personal use; we won’t stand gaping as two kids are beaten to death in front of us or make videos of another dying of blood loss after being shot; we will stop giving bribery as a matter of course because we will stop demanding it; we will stop evading taxes because that money will be utilised for developing infrastructure all over Pakistan without discrimination, instead of being squandered in maintaining a fleet of cars for countless ministers, secretaries, generals, etc.
So in short this guy will start behaving like a responsible citizen in the US IF IK becomes prime minster of pakistan.The writer is a freelance columnist based in the US.
An important meeting between the representatives of Business Train administration and Pakistan Railways representatives is expected this week.
According to sources, Business Train has defaulter of 750 millions of Pakistan Railways within two months since coming into operation.
Sources said that it issues between PR and Business Train officials not settled, it is feared that Business Train could be closed.
So it was indeed part of a project that the Chini bhais were part of. They are indeed preparing seriously.abhijitm wrote:Read to believe. Pakis are rocking today
[url=xxxhttp://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspap ... d-soldiers]China concerned over safety of 135 buried soldiers[/url]I sincerely request pakis to deliver this message to those done and dusted 135Chinese Embassy here Tuesday said it was shocked to learn that about 135 people were buried due to the avalanche occurred on April 7 at Siachen glacier. Condolences for those who have lost their lives, and sympathy to their families have been conveyed through the government and military leaders of Pakistan, the Embassy said. A spokesman of the embassy said, they are worried about the safety of the buried persons and wished to convey the same to the government and the people of Pakistan.
Translation: There are Chinese buried under that avalanche.abhijitm wrote:Read to believe. Pakis are rocking today
[url=xxxhttp://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspap ... d-soldiers]China concerned over safety of 135 buried soldiers[/url]I sincerely request pakis to deliver this message to those done and dusted 135Chinese Embassy here Tuesday said it was shocked to learn that about 135 people were buried due to the avalanche occurred on April 7 at Siachen glacier. Condolences for those who have lost their lives, and sympathy to their families have been conveyed through the government and military leaders of Pakistan, the Embassy said. A spokesman of the embassy said, they are worried about the safety of the buried persons and wished to convey the same to the government and the people of Pakistan.
The Siachen issue between India [ Images ] and Pakistan is to be primarily resolved through dialogue, but the United States is willing to help the two neighbors in whatever way it could, a State Department official said on Monday."We have made clear to both India and Pakistan that we are prepared to be supportive in any way that might be helpful, but that primarily we see this being settled by dialogue between them," State Department spokesperson Victoria Nuland told reporters at her daily news conference.The US, she said, has sent a team for search and rescue operation in Siachen where nearly 150 Pakistani soldiers were buried after being hit by an avalanche on Saturday."At the request of the government of Pakistan, the USG did deploy an eight-man US military alpine search-and-rescue team from Kabul to Islamabad [ Images ]. They arrived yesterday. The team is currently in Islamabad, has not yet deployed to the region.We're discussing with the Pakistani military how best they might be used," she said.
from WikiWhile speaking to The Express Tribune, an army officer said five helicopters were taking part in the operation and heavy machinery and technical experts from the NDMA and Strategic Plans Division have also been flown from Islamabad to the site.
National Command Authority is responsible for policy formulation and will exercise employment and development control over all strategic nuclear forces and strategic organizations. It consists of an Employment Control Committee and a Development Control Committee, as well as the Strategic Plans Division (SPD) which acts as its Secretariat. The Strategic Plans Division is responsible for the management and administration of the country's tactical and strategic nuclear weapons stockpile. It was created the same year as the NCA was formed.
vdutta wrote:It has been bothering me since last few days. what did they talk in 10 min "private and one to one meeting" between zardari and MMS. in fact what can you talk in 10 mins. its hardly any time to discuss even your hair style. and why private meeting? why cant they talk in front of their aides.
may be zardari wanted to talk about his inability to control the army or brought a confidential message from his establishment.
or did he bring some document to exchange with singh which he couldnt have done through establishment monitored official channels?
Why didn't Pakistan ask its taller than Himalayas friend China to help out?Anujan wrote:Apparently Unkil has deployed a team in Siachen too.
Knew it. Something is black in the lentils, Saar. It just ain't cut and dry.Anujan wrote:http://tribune.com.pk/story/362307/siac ... w-dangers/Strategic Plans Division have also been flown from Islamabad to the site.
I suspected and asked the same question yesterday. The small tactcial Nuke handled by Chinese , located in the cave nearby can easily be stolen by the local "terrorists' and used anywhere in China or WEST.Anujan wrote:http://tribune.com.pk/story/362307/siac ... w-dangers/Knew it. Something is black in the lentils, Saar. It just ain't cut and dry.Strategic Plans Division have also been flown from Islamabad to the site.
( Poaqs have no Money for new building)ATTARI - India and Pakistan scripted a new chapter at the Attari-Wagha border as both the nations threw open the new gates of the Integrated Check Posts (ICP) for the cross-border truck movement on Monday, reported Hindustan Times.However, as far as passenger movement was concerned, the deadlock continued on the second day as well, as Pakistan did not agree on sending passengers through new gates. The passengers on Monday were also moved through the old existing gate but their immigration and customs was done in the new ICP. The ICP is to be formally inaugurated on April 13 by Indian Home Minister P Chidambaram.Till now the trucks carrying goods were commuted through the old gate but since the ICP is all set to be formally inaugurated in few days’ time, both the nations on Monday started the truck movement through new gates.After a religious ceremony on Indian side, the gates were opened at around 8:00 AM. Till 3:00 PM about 48 Pakistani trucks carrying dry fruits, dry dates, and gypsum had reached India through the new gates.Both the countries had done a trial run for passengers on Sunday through new ICP but differences had emerged when Pakistan refused to send or receive passengers through new gates.Pakistan had been adamant saying that since it has recently constructed the immigration and customs facilities at old gates, it is not viable for it to shift passenger movement to new gate.The deadlock did not end on Monday as well and passengers operation continued through old gates.Talking to HT, Indian Deputy Commissioner Customs at the Attari Border, RK Duggal said, “The new gates have been opened for trade but passengers are still using the old gates. Pakistan till now has not agreed on new gate for passengers. Talks are on at highest level and we hope that soon it will be resolved.”“We are ready to receive and send passengers through new gates. It is up to Pakistan now. However for the convenience of passengers we have arranged three buses to ferry the passengers,” he added.