Saw the very impressive clip about the 4th Horse (Hodson's). Didn't see Shukla.nelson wrote:Yes, Col Shukla commanded this 4th Horse an Armoured Regiment. Watch...Ashutosh Malik wrote:...
Col. Shukla seems to have clearly made a deft manoeuvre to build his career further! Was he an Armoured Corps officer?
...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqjYi-k78EM
Dear Amitabh.Amitabh wrote: He did not pursue the Tatra case until very late in the day,
Amitabh,
Shukla's article is in v poor taste and casts Shukla in a terrible light. He should have reflected deeply before publishing such an appalling article on a fellow officer, that too the Chief.
Shukla's article is appaling not only because of the poor arguments he makes (there is not one shred of hard evidence to link VKS to Rajput-ism), the poor choice of language ("Last Friday, the outgoing chief proved that he had lost any lingering trace of judgement.") , but because of its timing (with VKS about to retire, and the new Chief about to assume office). The timing of the article can only lead one to draw the most ungenerous conclusions about Shukla's motives, loyalties, character and judgment. The article shows that Shukla is the sort of man who would kick another man when he is down / on the way out, and suck up to another man on the way up. The technical term for a person of such character is lickspittle.
Whatever be his motives (maybe he is a fighter for truth and justice, maybe all he wanted was 10 months more in office, I don't know, and I don't care), VKS has done the Army and the country a great service by (i) Taking on the accused in the Sukhna case, (ii) Taking on the accused in the Adarsh case, (iii) Taking on the accused in the TATRA case, (iv) highlighting the equipment shortages faced by the Army (even though the letter was leaked by someone in the PMO itself), (v) Highlighting the poor behaviour of the Army in the raid conducted in the NE, (vi) Taking a strong stance on AFSPA in J&K, (vii) Taking a strong stance on Siachen, etc etc etc
VKS has been a huge thorn in the side for the establishment. I really wish more people in his position and authority are also thorns in the side of the establishment.
One more dirty little secret: communalism/casteism/state-ism is a fact of life in India, a terrible fact of life; guess what, its also infected the armed forces, not as bad as the rest of the country, but its there. Like most forms of discrimination, it can be subtle / difficult to expose / insidious. If we care about our Army, we also need to reflect about how to deal with this problem. First step is to acknowledge it.
This man, Amitabh, is incorrigible. And there is no murky depth to which he will not descend.Eklavya,
You may be right about (i) and (ii) but I would not give him extra credit for the remaining points. He did not pursue the Tatra case until very late in the day, and the remaining points are either what any army chief should do or matters of army policy that go beyond chief x or y. The reason I am being contrarian here is that:
(1) I have heard from a number of army sources that he has played the communal card and that too in pursuit of personal goals. The army is not the terrain for caste battles to promote individual interests;
(2) Contrary to what everyone here and in the wider public believes there is I believe some truth to Shekhar Gupta's report of the non-coup; obviously it was not a real coup attempt (since there are other larger units in Delhi that would attempt that) but (a) the unit movements were highly unusual in that they were in the direction of Delhi and (b) the government did activate certain protocols that are put in place when it believes an armed takeover might be in the offing.
I do not expect most people here to accept my argument since it is non-verifiable, but I am entitled to my own views. Logically, if I believe that the army chief is playing a communal card and that he (even if slightly) threatened the sanctity of civilian control of the military, then I can only conclude that he is guilty of poor judgment.
In fact VKS action as called for by Defence Service Regulations was complete the day the bribe was offered to him. It was AKA who pursued it late in the day based on what VKS reported to him one and a half years back.Sanku wrote:Dear Amitabh.Amitabh wrote: He did not pursue the Tatra case until very late in the day,
what is your definition of very late in the day? By all reports he was acting on it within a year of taking office, of the two years he was given.
Please let us know, because people have a way of defending "I can call A as B" because "A and B are not merely letters they are PoVs."
Sanku wrote:Dear Amitabh.Amitabh wrote: He did not pursue the Tatra case until very late in the day,
what is your definition of very late in the day? By all reports he was acting on it within a year of taking office, of the two years he was given.
Please let us know, because people have a way of defending "I can call A as B" because "A and B are not merely letters they are PoVs."
Most importantly, a military leader has to have the right kind of moral and ethical values. In no case, self will get precedence over the organisation; never shall personal gains, override official and professional needs. Please keep it in your mind that it is your sacred duty to uphold the stature, honour and the glorious tradition of the armed forces at all times.
In your career, you would have to make difficult choices; your decision has to be always guided by the motto of NDA 'Service Before Self'-- and the 'Harder Right than the Easier Wrong' phrase as recited by you in the NDA prayer.
"Murky depth", "wild", "discredited", "rubbish", "garbage", "despicable", "low-life". Glad you're here to share your personality and elevate the discourse.Jaybhatt wrote:This man, Amitabh, is incorrigible. And there is no murky depth to which he will not descend.
Now he says there is "some truth" in Shekhar Gupta's wild and totally discredited report. I would agree with Singha when he questions Amitabh's sudden return from hibernation.
The final straw in the egregious rubbish that he peddles is when he says that his "argument is non - verifiable". He can bet his bottom paisa that it is indeed non-verifiable. Quite logically so.
This is because it is a load of rubbish and garbage. Making despicable allegations (in tandem with a low-life like Shekhar Gupta) and inflicting them on a BR discussion thread puts him beyond the pale.
Seriously??(2) Contrary to what everyone here and in the wider public believes there is I believe some truth to Shekhar Gupta's report of the non-coup; obviously it was not a real coup attempt (since there are other larger units in Delhi that would attempt that) but (a) the unit movements were highly unusual in that they were in the direction of Delhi and (b) the government did activate certain protocols that are put in place when it believes an armed takeover might be in the offing.
Amitabh,Amitabh wrote:[Logically, if I believe that the army chief is playing a communal card and that he (even if slightly) threatened the sanctity of civilian control of the military, then I can only conclude that he is guilty of poor judgment.
All these words about you and Gupta are carefully chosen. And used after introspection.Amitabh wrote:"Murky depth", "wild", "discredited", "rubbish", "garbage", "despicable", "low-life". Glad you're here to share your personality and elevate the discourse.Jaybhatt wrote:This man, Amitabh, is incorrigible. And there is no murky depth to which he will not descend.
Now he says there is "some truth" in Shekhar Gupta's wild and totally discredited report. I would agree with Singha when he questions Amitabh's sudden return from hibernation.
The final straw in the egregious rubbish that he peddles is when he says that his "argument is non - verifiable". He can bet his bottom paisa that it is indeed non-verifiable. Quite logically so.
This is because it is a load of rubbish and garbage. Making despicable allegations (in tandem with a low-life like Shekhar Gupta) and inflicting them on a BR discussion thread puts him beyond the pale.
The CBI comes very handy when needed. Very sad to see this trend. The constitutional bodies are being compromised.nelson wrote:7 Adarsh case accused get bail as CBI fails to file charge sheet
http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/oth ... 470298.ece
Sir sometimes timing should also be considered... look at the timing...ASPuar wrote:The complaint was made, and the Minister is duty bound to act on it. It will be given a quick burial.
This will be a test of Sri Antony me thinks, as well a dipstick to see how deep the rot goes.ASPuar wrote:The complaint was made, and the Minister is duty bound to act on it. It will be given a quick burial.
Antony said this on the floor of the house just a few weeks back: Antony to seek hike in defence outlay to counter twin threats from Pakistan, ChinaRony wrote:Well, I dont expect him to say that china is our enemy publickly.That will be a PR problem. But the real problem for the nation would be if he truly beleives it. His godfather JJ Singh raised hackles before by saying that we need to compromise with China on Arunachal or something along those lines ! Hope that Bikram Singh does not share his godfather's views on china. I sincerely hope and pray that Gen.Bikram Singh will prove the naysayers wrong and will emerge as one of the best chiefs of the Indian Army.
Defence minister AK Antony on Tuesday told Rajya Sabha he would seek a hike in the Rs 1,93,408 crore (around $39 billion) defence outlay in the 2012-13 budget due to "new ground realities and the changing security scenario".
"The growing proximity of China and Pakistan is a cause of worry...I know the gravity of the situation. We have to take a second look at the defence budget in light of the changing threat perceptions,'' he said.
It is not my case -- or that of Shekhar Gupta's as is clear from anyone who actually read his story -- that VKS was actually planning a coup. You are setting up a straw man here (nothing new on these pages or in our public discourse). The issue is that two military formations undertook unusual mobilisation in the direction of Delhi, and that the government reacted by implementing certain protocols that are reserved for a potential military coup. There are the facts and are verifiable in principle. I have at least one paramilitary contact who has told me that the second event did occur. I choose to believe him.eklavya wrote:Amitabh,Amitabh wrote:[Logically, if I believe that the army chief is playing a communal card and that he (even if slightly) threatened the sanctity of civilian control of the military, then I can only conclude that he is guilty of poor judgment.
As you know, many people believe (and for very good reasons) that the Government and a former Army Chief played the communal card in manipulating VKS' year of birth to ensure a certain desired "line of succession". It is (at the very least) a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Please open the Pandora's Box, should you wish ...
If the Chief had initiated a coup, he should have been HUNG. What's he doing in Army House, giving interviews to NDTV, should he not be in Tihar Jail?
A coup is not something one dreams up over 9 holes of golf; it requires a huge amount of planning and conspiring. Given the number of enemies VKS has (in the army and the government), do you think there would be some corroborating evidence if he was planning to overthrow the constitution. You are discrediting your own judgment by falling for such a cock-and-bull story ....
Another lie.Amitabh wrote: He has also attended overtly political events in uniform, which also shows poor judgment.
With more than 25000 soldiers available to him in New Delhi itself for the republic day parade, he somehow chose formations which are 300-500 kms away. I mean how daft can one getAmitabh wrote: It is not my case -- or that of Shekhar Gupta's as is clear from anyone who actually read his story -- that VKS was actually planning a coup. You are setting up a straw man here (nothing new on these pages or in our public discourse). The issue is that two military formations undertook unusual mobilisation in the direction of Delhi, and that the government reacted by implementing certain protocols that are reserved for a potential military coup. There are the facts and are verifiable in principle. I have at least one paramilitary contact who has told me that the second event did occur. I choose to believe him.
Where exactly did he challenge the civilian authority? Civilian authority doesnt mean kowtowing to political masters & their whims and being chamchas of Nehru-Gandhi parivar like Thapar was. Going to court is NOT challenging the civilian authority, whatever chankian spin you want to give. It infact shows that even COAS comes under the civilian judiciary, which actually means he has just enhanced civilian authority over the army.In my view VKS was trying to unnerve a weak and paranoid government. Again, in my view, whatever the merits of his age argument, he has played divisive politics and challenged civilian authority for a deeply personal agenda. If as you say the government (personally I disagree -- MMS is not some petty ethnic lobbyist) or some army lobby plays minority card x, it does not entitle the serving army chief to play minority card y. He has also attended overtly political events in uniform, which also shows poor judgment. He is welcome to do as he likes once he has doffed his uniform, but there are limits to how far you can pursue a personal agenda as Army chief.
Verifiable? Prove it. Let us test your honesty.Amitabh wrote:The issue is that two military formations undertook unusual mobilisation in the direction of Delhi, and that the government reacted by implementing certain protocols that are reserved for a potential military coup. There are the facts and are verifiable in principle.
Its not only Gen VK Singh who has said the movement was very normal.peter wrote:Verifiable? Prove it. Let us test your honesty.Amitabh wrote:The issue is that two military formations undertook unusual mobilisation in the direction of Delhi, and that the government reacted by implementing certain protocols that are reserved for a potential military coup. There are the facts and are verifiable in principle.
General VKS has said nothing unusual about the movement. You are saying the opposite. Whom do we believe? You over the General? How/Why?
Are the mods watching or is blatant lying from Amitabh and his ilk acceptable?
Agreed. Though this brings me back to the question why should'nt a journalist be taken to the court for outrageous lying?Sanku wrote:
So its not only Gen VKS over Shekar Gupta, It is entire Indian setup over Shekar Gupta.
Would your same logic of rushing to defence of Shri BS not apply to your explicit accusations (not implicit) against VKS or "unknown" ideological colored glasses get in your wayYou may wish to familiarise yourself with COAS selection procedures before peddling such foolish conspiracy theories. And also reconsider your implicit accusation against Lt Gen Bikram Singh, GOC Eastern Command.
There is a glowing article about Gen. Bikky in undie teevee website. Whenever undie teevee writes some good about someone, it must be taken with a drum of NaCl.Rony wrote:I sincerely hope and pray that Gen.Bikram Singh will prove the naysayers wrong and will emerge as one of the best chiefs of the Indian Army.
Very sorry state of affairs. Wish the Govt banned all procurement related-officers from holding jobs with any company that has a business interest with the Services.THURSDAY, 31 MAY 2012
Army chief slams BEML on Tatra, awards it Rs 1,500-cr deal
by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 31st May 12
The outgoing army chief, General V K Singh, claims he scuttled a Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML) bid to sell overpriced Tatra vehicles to the Indian Army. But, in February 2012, the army quietly signed a contract with BEML for an even larger and more controversial purchase: a $275-million (about Rs 1,500 crore) contract for 204 armoured recovery vehicles (ARVs).
Last week, the army chief declared in a television interview that he knew the WZT-3 ARV contract was a scam and BEML should be investigated in detail. He called the Tatra deal “a wake-up call for us to start examining other areas where things could have gone wrong”.
But in February, BEML was nominated, without bidding, for the lucrative order for additional WZT-3 ARVs. Disregarded entirely was the fact that in three previous contracts for a total of 352 WZT-3 ARVs (44 in 1999; 80 in 2002; and 228 in 2005), BEML had disregarded the contractual stipulation to indigenise the ARV. Instead, the Indian defence public sector undertaking (DPSU) imported fully built ARVs from a Polish company, Bumar, fitted cosmetic Indian components and supplied these to the army.
The WZT-3 ARVs are essentially T-72 tanks kitted for repair and recovery, rather than for fighting. Instead of a gun and turret, the T-72 is fitted with a heavy-duty crane, winch and repair equipment. This allows the ARV to travel cross-country with tank columns, repairing tanks that break down.
The purchase of these essential vehicles has been fraught with controversy. In 2003, Brigadier Inder Mohan Singh was a Deputy Director General in the Master General of Ordnance (MGO) Branch, which handles the procurement of “in-service equipment,” as the WZT-3 was since 1999. He has told Business Standard the tendering process was manipulated to ensure BEML emerged the lone bidder. The tender was sent out to only two PSUs, Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd (BHEL) and BEML; only BEML bid. When Larsen & Toubro threw its hat in the ring, the defence ministry’s acquisitions chief ruled it out as an “unsolicited bid”. That left BEML, the single vendor, at liberty to dictate terms.
Top L&T officials verify this happened, though the company has declined to comment officially, since it had not been invited to bid.
Brig I M Singh says Ukraine then wrote in, offering their T-72 based ARV for trials. This was an attractive offer, since Ukraine was willing to use the T-72 chassis and running gear that India was already building near Chennai, while importing only the recovery gear. This, saysby Singh, would have made their ARV 30-40 per cent cheaper than the WZT-3. He put up an official proposal that the Ukrainian ARV be invited for trials, since this was a Rs 1,000-crore contract that should not go to a single bidder.
That idea was quickly shot down by the MGO himself, Lt General V K Jetley, whose brother, Colonel Virendar Jetley, had been employed by Bumar India, a joint venture between Bumar Poland and the New Delhi-based Chemon Group, headed by prominent Delhi cigar baron, Chetan Seth. “Within days, I was removed from the ARV cost negotiation committee,” says Brig Singh.
Chetan Seth, interviewed by Business Standard, confirms Col Virendar Jetley was his employee. However, he denies any influence was exercised.
Arms dealers have long sought a link with the MGO’s office, which controls a large chunk of the defence budget.
The owner of Vectra, Ravi Rishi, now under the CBI scanner in the Tatra case, employed two successive MGOs soon after they retired: Lt Gen R I S Kahlon, from the time he retired till his death last year; and Lt Gen S J S Saighal, who hit the limelight when Eurocopter, which employed his brother, Lt Gen H S Saighal, won a massive Indian contract for 197 light helicopters. The defence ministry overturned that decision after rivals protested.
With the contract for 228 WZT-3 signed in 2005, Bumar Poland began sending shiploads of ARVs to Mumbai. While BEML was supposed to indigenise these quickly, Brig I M Singh says BEML did absolutely no work on the ARVs.
“The Bumar ARVs did not even go to the BEML plant. When the ship from Poland reached Mumbai, we would send drivers to unload the ARVs. They would load the ARVs onto a train to Ordnance Depot, Kirkee, from where the frontline units would collect them,” says Brig Singh.
Chetan Seth admits the ARVs never went to BEML but claims some Indian parts would be fitted onto the ARVs in Ordnance Depot, Kirkee. “It took some time, but we indigenised drivers’ periscope sights; drivers’ adjustable seats; periscopes; and radios. We had a team of five Polish engineers in Kirkee,” avers Seth.
Approached for comments, BEML chief, V R S Natarajan, said he would respond in a press conference once the army chief retired. When pressed for answers, he asked for an emailed list of questions, to which he has not responded.
Meanwhile, another Chetan Seth company, Optic Electronics, was providing an illustration of how “indigenisation” worked in the WZT-3.
According to a senior Chetan Seth employee, Optic Electronics functioned from an SEZ in Noida, importing surplus parts from East Europe depots, touching these up, and then re-exporting them at a 500 per cent profit.
“Optic Electronics would import the day sights for each WZT-3 ARV for $5,500. These stained, often rusty, parts would be cleaned up and re-exported to Bumar Poland for around $25,000. These would then be fitted onto the WZT-3,” says the Seth employee on condition of anonymity.
Chetan Seth says he built day sights in partnership with a Polish company called PCO. He admits providing day sights for the WZT-3, but denies they were surplus parts from junkyards.
Ironically, the “indigenisation” of the WZT-3, which never crossed even 20 per cent, was being done through low-tech routes like ploughs, driver sights, towing ropes and seats, even as India was running a full T-72 tank manufacturing line at Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi, and building T-72 engines at the Engine Factory, Avadi.
Business Standard learned during a visit to Avadi last November that the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) had quoted a price of Rs 40-50 lakh per engine for the WZT-3, but BEML rejected this as too high. Consequently, Bumar continues to source the engine from East Europe. The OFB’s quote has also been rejected for the latest order for 204 WZT-3 ARVs, which bodes ill for any prospect of indigenisation.
The ministry of defence has not responded to an emailed request for comments.