Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 12 Jan 2013 02:07

SwamyG wrote:Supratik:
You bring very good points. So Modi is never a threat to the followers of any religion, but he will resist EJ activities. This is what most of Hindus would expect. Now how to convince the Christians of this? It is a legitimate question, no? Because the powers to be will blur the distinction, and emotional and gullible people will buy into the blur. How does an aam admi who is not a Hindu get convinced that Modi believes in religious freedom, but will not tolerate NGOs supported by foreign missionaries who are bent on conversion? It is a case of removing the thorn with as little pain as possible.

do Christians go to the same length to convince Hindus of their noble intentions?
that is a legitimate question. let's start from there.

and why only foreign missionaries? I oppose the cancer of Abrahamic proselytizing regardless of the source.
whether it is a desi guy with desi money with desi people, or foreign guy with foreign money with foreign people, or any other combination thereof.

fundamentally, Abrahamism will destroy India. it will destroy any and every vestige of a unified Bharatiya framework.

the idea of Bharat, and the idea of exclusivist-monotheist-proselytizing-genocidal Middle-Eastern Abrahamism are mutually inimical.

there is no "coming together" of these two frameworks.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Jan 2013 02:14

^

All I see is deracinated minds fighting the shadows....

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 12 Jan 2013 02:16

RamaY ji, I am confused...please do expand.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jan 2013 02:20

It is sad that we want people to think about christian, hindu, muslim etc rather just people and their problems. It is very sad indeed. Let me add my curse to whoever started religion shall face immortal death in hell with billions of lice!

So, it appears that religion is the only problem that politicians are facing.. rest is all handled well.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Jan 2013 02:23

Devesh garu - I was just summarizing your thought for my reference.

SaiK garu - For most part, advent of Abrahamic religion is the problem. Before that individuals/groups are punished for their individual acts. With the advent of Abrahamic religion, the Asuric forces got an unifying forum. With the advent of Secularism, these Abrahamic religions got state protection.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jan 2013 02:25

so, we don't want common civil code?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Jan 2013 02:28

if Christians and Muslims can agree on common civil code between themselves, it will be Hindu civil code

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 12 Jan 2013 02:29

I think the thread title should be India vs Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India.

perhaps, it was a mistake to put so much "burden" on Modi's shoulders. only paints a target on his back.

anybody else think a title change is warranted?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 12 Jan 2013 02:34

Bade,

I dunno about that. The last few cycles the north/west/east has fractured itself and ended up dividing the votes or bringing in 3rd party types.

The south is the only region that votes tactically on the national level and is willing to vote for the other party in the center in order to maintain influence. TN in particular has been quite mercenary about this. I fully expect TN to once again end up on the 'winning' side.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 12 Jan 2013 02:35

VijayK:
I am not so sure of things being hunky dory in America. Yet again, we have a case of 'Americanization' of Indian politics. Why bring America into India?

It is really simple, no individual should be barred from having a fair chance to any political position just because he or she already has relatives. All the talk of America is only so much. There are career politicians in America who continue to derail America. The Teabaggers who probably do not have much 'dynasty' are a disaster and crackpots. The Bushes and Kennedys are entrenched.

The 'dynasty' exists because people continue to vote on caste and parochial interests. I have no problems in contrasting Modi and Sonia/Rahul (or even Priyanka) based on their ideas and their actions. Considering India does not elect Presidents directly, and votes a party to govern; one does have to look more holistically than just the leader. Right now we extrapolate, rightly, that considering Modi's performances in Gujarat, he is likely to perform as an able effective PM at the national level. Considering that Sonia/Rahul have proven to be ineffective leaders and instrumental in appeasement and not so sound policies, it is fair to expect they will not turn over a new leaf - at least yet.

Individuals should be measured based on their merits, and should not be penalized because of their connections (or lack of connections). Once that is accorded, it does not really matter if it is 'dynasty' or 'non-dynasty'.

It should not be difficult to create a 25, 50, 75 or 100 points simple list on the flaws of Sonia/Rahul - that can be easily circulated among the Internet and social media crowd, no?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 12 Jan 2013 02:36

Theo...Did you mean Christians when you said "S.TN" ? I know you are participating this thread, so if you do not answer I will assume your answer as an 'yes'.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jan 2013 02:54

I would second anything that considers principles of a party that is driven by a system and process change in mind, focused purely on solving the problem at hand, and ignore the religious ones. So, even if that means bringing an uniform civil code. The fear is the key to change. People should come out and say, jointly we all will behave and subscribe to an uniform law. Is that asking for too much!?

When there is a solution at hand, why would they want to stay away from that? I am sure right thinking christians, muslims et al will accept a common law that is not focused on religion, or just keeps religious issues aside.

Community based living setup like Canada too is fine, but heck is much better than inter-religious fights. shame on India, especially those who don't accept uniform civil laws.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 12 Jan 2013 03:01

Theo, that is why I said the North. It will be the North that will decide Modi's fate for PM's role in 2014. The fractured North is what led to UPA victory. Of course, BJP as a party will remain for decades to come, irrespective of the next election outcome. It will morph even further with changing times to meet new challenges.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Jan 2013 03:47

Theo_Fidel wrote:Bade,

I dunno about that. The last few cycles the north/west/east has fractured itself and ended up dividing the votes or bringing in 3rd party types.

The south is the only region that votes tactically on the national level and is willing to vote for the other party in the center in order to maintain influence. TN in particular has been quite mercenary about this. I fully expect TN to once again end up on the 'winning' side.

Are you saying South is a good/smart satrap at best?

Cute. If they were on the winning side in 1998, then why can't they be on the winning side in 2014?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 12 Jan 2013 04:00

Saik, You do realize the present civil code, followed mostly by Hindus, is based on Roman/Victorian British law right.

SwamyG,

You can think what you want to think.

I have said many time 90% of my extended community is Hindu, though I do not presume to speak for them. S.TN is 80%-85% Hindu. Even Kanyakumari is at least 55% Hindu. There is no conflict between christian and hindu types that I'm aware of. There were some desultory attempts at provocation from both sides in the 60's. They are the two most integrated and most intertwined in marriage groups in India.

There is a well funded and organized effort to fan the flames of hatred and conflict and split these two groups apart.

AFA why there are less christian types in the Nawrth, I have my opinion but it would be OT here.

Bade,

Yes Modi's fate will be decided in the North. I misunderstood your statement. I also think MH will be even more critical to his fate. He needs to get MH on his side, somehow. Right now it is more than a little ambiguous.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jan 2013 04:11

No. I did not realize that so far. Please educate me.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 12 Jan 2013 04:48

Theo: I am aware Saar. My question was a simple one directed at what you said here, nothing personal about you. You or your family are not subject. Just seeking to clarify on what you said, and you do not want to clarify? Why?

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 12 Jan 2013 05:11

I am now pretty sure that the statement that Abrahamic faiths will destroy India is absolutely 100% true. I have seen its mostly the christians and Muslims who have a problem with anything that even remotely smells of Hindu resurgence. I have seen educated IT types Christians calling India a synthetic country and thanking the Brits for 'uniting' the country. The less said about the Muslims the better, all they speak about is Kashmir referendum and Gujarat riots. I am beginning to believe that there is no hope for this country unless the Abrahamic faiths are brutally and violently brought down to earth with their adherents clearly told in no uncertain terms that their only allegiance should be to Bharat and Bharat only.

I know it's quite a blanket statement to make but trust me, I am yet to meet a single person from these faiths who was not oozing with contempt for anything remotely Hindu and our idea of India. This has been so far my experience and I am very bluntly putting it out. If anybody feels offended by this post, I am willing to edit the objectionable parts out.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 12 Jan 2013 05:28

Theo_Fidel wrote:

The south is the only region that votes tactically on the national level and is willing to vote for the other party in the center in order to maintain influence. TN in particular has been quite mercenary about this. I fully expect TN to once again end up on the 'winning' side.

Not always. ex- karnataka has bucked the trend since emergency. Always the loser at centre rules the state.
similarly Kerala- not always like karnataka.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 12 Jan 2013 05:36

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1387796

Rather than take personalities into consideration like NaMo or die nasty,

why dont the worthies on both sides take into consideration the concepts that make our nation better in all respects--
many think of India becoming a emerging or wannabe sooper power.

why not thinks in the terms which will make India along those lines.

Forget caste and religion , think Indians as one group.

This may not win votes in real life situation across india but cant it be discussed here without any polarisation of individuals view..

we can have our favorites--

any takers.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 12 Jan 2013 06:09

Devesh:
First, I have no right to demand any other individual to practice a faith or not. I have no moral right to expect others to not pray to "gods" when I myself pray to some. As there is so no proof of existence or non-existence of my gods or their god, I leave it to the individual to believe.
Second, I believe all organized religions advanced because of preaching and patronization - including Hinduism. Hence, I have no moral right to expect Christians to not preach.
Third, however considering the currency value and to have a level playing field, I think foreign money should be restricted into any country. Hence I oppose Christian missionaries money in millions pouring into India. The millions of dollars convert into crores and crores and with an active support from outside World, the playing field is simply not level. Hence my opposition to foreign currency in religion.

If a desi Christian, using his or her hard earned money wants to spread Christianity, without denigrating local traditions and Indic religions - Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism and Sikhism; then I do not have a problem. As long as that freedom to preach and convert is accorded to the preachers of all religion - including Hindu preachers.

The reason I seek clarification from Theo is to understand his points better. It is to find if the Christian population has takleef with Modi. One cannot discuss Modi and elections, without understanding the feelings of non-Hindus in India. Omitting those calculations and continuing discussion is like ignoring the 1000-lb gorilla in the room. I do not think religion per se is the scope of this thread. Both Arjun and moderators will warn us. I have my own concerns with monotheism and its preachers, and again that is not the scope.

Calls to ignore caste and religion might be good for discussions in BRF; but out in the real World that matters to people. Until all the people have risen above that for voting, it will be a factor all the time in elections. Caste and religion, in personal life is a different matter. And it does require nuance and maturity to discuss without hurting the feelings of others.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 12 Jan 2013 06:13

Swami Vivekananda is my source of inspiration: Mamata

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/swami-viveka ... 60-37.html

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 12 Jan 2013 06:15

devesh wrote:I have learned an important tactic over the last few pages.

we were all a bunch of fools who jumped on the initial "S.TN" comment, rightfully so, yes, but in turn, this also gave more mileage and 'air-time' to the regional diversions. I have to wonder if this is what was intended.

in one fluid stroke, insert an inane comment which at best was ridiculous, and then eventually all the attention makes it a legitimate "viewpoint", and finally it is about "Modi vs. so-and-so-region"....

we all fell for the nautanki hook, line and sinker.

the comment should have been ignored, with the lone poster parroting it would have eventually shut up after seeing the fish not falling for the bait.

important lesson for future reference. for all of us.

THis is right.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 12 Jan 2013 06:20

Watch the ragging of this relic of 70s, HOD economics of some U in Gujarat, Hemant Shah. These are the guys responsible for secular nehruvian growth rate (Which they called Hindu growth rate) of pre 90s.

Is 'Vibrant Gujarat' more hype than reality?

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/india- ... v_also_see

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 12 Jan 2013 06:55

SwamyG wrote:I like to think on a case to case basis (more on the lines of Apad Dharma). So your distaste to Dynasty, is that applicable to all parties including BJP?

100%. One of the very key reasons why I am for the BJP - it is not a dynastic party.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 12 Jan 2013 07:02

vijayk wrote:The progress means we need to go from low level of democracy to higher levels of democracy. We are on a reverse trend. After 60 years, we should moved from nomination of candidates by parties to a Primary system. Instead, we went backwards to inheritance system, all because of a dynasty. Such tendencies should be nipped in the bud.

When JFK nominated RFK as Attorney General, US Congress enacted anti-nepotism law. When one US president got elected thrice, they enacted 2 term limit for President. The democracy and its institutions need to guarded like babies and needs to be rescued from greed and evil taking over the system. A MAFIA took over this nation and it manifests itself as dynasties, civil society and PAID MEDIA.

Again...
A civilization that chooses to close its eyes to its most crucial problems is a stricken civilization." - Aime Cesaire

Very well articulated, Vijayk.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 12 Jan 2013 08:19

Yaa Allah Pakistan isn't secular anymore?.

Pakistan to be part of Vibrant Gujarat for the first time

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/303 ... first.html

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 12 Jan 2013 09:25

SwamyG wrote:If a desi Christian, using his or her hard earned money wants to spread Christianity, without denigrating local traditions and Indic religions - Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism and Sikhism; then I do not have a problem.

Problem is that the "ONLY one God" and "all others are false Gods" formulation, which is intrinsic to Islam and Christianity - does denigrate other religions. So while I agree with your thought process and would agree that Christians who want to evangelize should be allowed as long as they do not do not denigrate other religions, perhaps only 2 - 3% of current Christian missionaries in India would satisfy this requirement (if at all).

The reason I seek clarification from Theo is to understand his points better. It is to find if the Christian population has takleef with Modi. One cannot discuss Modi and elections, without understanding the feelings of non-Hindus in India. Omitting those calculations and continuing discussion is like ignoring the 1000-lb gorilla in the room. I do not think religion per se is the scope of this thread. Both Arjun and moderators will warn us.

I don't think we should allow religion to derail this thread. Having said that, I would add this- Those participating on this thread would be expected to take a stand as regards their personal political choice; and need to be able to defend, if asked, as to how their personal political choice is derived from their personal value system.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 12 Jan 2013 09:26

SwamyG wrote:The reason I seek clarification from Theo is to understand his points better. It is to find if the Christian population has takleef with Modi.

I don't think the Christian groups I have talked to think Modi is relevant or irrelevant to their life situation. I have not heard of anyone speak ill of him or positively of him. My community is mostly too busy making money and acquiring property. We like the slightly unstable political system in TN, it gives us options, and we have prospered under it. We are not inclined to change it. Christians are NOT a monolithic group as well. We are fragmented along geographic, language, caste and cultural lines. It might be more relevant to talk to Gujarat Christians, yes there are a few, and ask what they think.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 12 Jan 2013 09:27

Cong discovers Swami Vivekananda

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 12 Jan 2013 09:35

^ The Dynasty using such masculinely fascist and polarizing personalities ?? Wouldn't Wendy Doniger, the Secular Goddess, find suppressed homo-erotic tendencies latent in that picture ??

This is appalling !

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 Jan 2013 09:46

^^ Damn, that masculine pose is oozing resurgent saffron Hindutva...how can secular INC be associated with it?

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 12 Jan 2013 09:54

I seriously think all Dalit, Christian, Muslim, WKK and Marxist organizations should unite and massively protest at this example of extreme Hindutva inflitrating the 'Secular' party ('read' minority-owned dead-beat party). Would personally support them on the issue.

And I am not trying to be sarcastic out here. It would do a world of good if the Dynasty were forced to take a stand on this matter.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jan 2013 10:03

“The ~~fire~~strategy that warms usthem can also consume usthem; it is not the fault of the ~~fire~~strategy.”
― ~~Swami Vivekananda~~ modified

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jan 2013 10:06

Ab Chindu thera kya hoga?

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 12 Jan 2013 10:13

^^ As per twitter they have come out with 3-4 page special on Swamiji.

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 Jan 2013 10:19

^^ yes, saw the same in print today!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Jan 2013 10:52

devesh wrote:I think the thread title should be India vs Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India.

perhaps, it was a mistake to put so much "burden" on Modi's shoulders. only paints a target on his back.

anybody else think a title change is warranted?

Well I have always been saying that.

disha · Post by **disha** » 12 Jan 2013 11:04

Theo_Fidel wrote:
I don't think the Christian groups I have talked to think Modi is relevant or irrelevant to their life situation. I have not heard of anyone speak ill of him or positively of him. My community is mostly too busy making money and acquiring property. We like the slightly unstable political system in TN, it gives us options, and we have prospered under it. We are not inclined to change it. Christians are NOT a monolithic group as well. We are fragmented along geographic, language, caste and cultural lines. It might be more relevant to talk to Gujarat Christians, yes there are a few, and ask what they think.

Is not your community perpetuating a caste and a class? I have interacted with several christians from S. TN. Some have reverted back to Hindu fold and within the family some have gone full force back into catholic faith. It is interesting, in such families - religion becomes personal rather than blindly following the frock.

Remember there are few Gujarati christians - you are more likely to run into rice christians from the Dangs rather or portugeese (forcibly or natural) descendants from diu/daman., simply because Chennai (Madras) was a British Presidency and their conversion project was under full swing there for several decades. Most of Gujarat was not under direct British rule (british rule was by proxy). So their opinion is a minority.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 12 Jan 2013 11:04

devesh wrote:I think the thread title should be India vs Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India.

perhaps, it was a mistake to put so much "burden" on Modi's shoulders. only paints a target on his back.

anybody else think a title change is warranted?

Certainly not !

Moditva as a political ideology and one that has been validated by successful implementation in a major Indian region - is a revolutionary concept and fresh new hope for India. Especially in contrast to the prevailing Dynastic consensus of the last several decades. That is the raison d'etre for this thread.

Moditva is independent of Modi - though one hopes that Modi will remain its torchbearer for at least the next decade.

The target on the back of Modi - has been there for the last decade or more. Lets not get sidetracked by such trivialities.