Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 07 Feb 2013 15:45

ramana wrote:While it would be nice to have a M(i)RV A-6 to show capability, I dont like the idea of putting all the eggs in one basket for it will invite first strike.

OTH such a vehicle with one payload would be a Vamana.

Ramana, we may slip into a discussion on deterrence policies here, but that may also be relevant here. I believe, that our two immediate nuclear neighbours who pose the greatest nuclear threat to us cannot be trusted at any time not to be the first to strike us. Pakistan has no pretensions at all to NFU and China's NFU can never be trusted because of its past actions, its continued animosity and unwillingness to resolve the border dispute and the encirclement policy. A 'peacefully rising China' may even resort to such a strike against us in order to settle its other disputes with other neighbours favourably to itself. The bottom line is we should expect a first strike and prepare accordingly.

member_19969 · Post by **member_19969** » 07 Feb 2013 18:34

Trends in missile development in India: An interview with DRDO's Avinash Chander

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Feb 2013 21:44

SS, I am pretty sure that the duo wont make a move unless the West back it.
The mythology of the betrayed Nehru in 1962 obscures a lot of behind the scenes moves.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Feb 2013 21:53

shipraM wrote:Trends in missile development in India: An interview with DRDO's Avinash Chander

Very Interesting interview , K-15 Trajectory seems very configurable and for various altitude of flight we might get different range and there is always the ballistic profle to get the longest range.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Feb 2013 22:33

Thats what Arun-S figured out a couple of years ago in that ppt chart on Slideshare.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 07 Feb 2013 22:51

Interesting interview. By "higher leakage probability", I guess he means that, with decoys the main warhead has a higher probability of getting through ABMs

In his last line, he says

So if your error rate is low to begin with, all that you need is a few fixes in between as you approach the target and that cannot be denied to us, as nobody can jam on a global level.

This seems to imply that for at least some long range BMs, we do get a GPS fix for mid course corrections

K-15 is a "Shaped Trajectory System" - I love that terminology!

member_20036 · Post by **member_20036** » 07 Feb 2013 23:18

dhiraj wrote:^^^^^^^^^^^^
IMHO i find it tough to believe that a 50 tonne agni V has a range of only around 5000 - 5500 km even though i take into account a 2 tonne payload and all the MIRV stuffs etc.
Our defence labs good or bad seems to very good in concealing things or creating doubts on the opposition like for ex pokharan 2 , K 15 etc.
Anyway i don't mind

I read in trishul blog comments section that 50 tonnes is the total weight of the Agni-5, its cannister & its TELAR-based communications & fire-control system, i.e. the completeweapon system. And weight of missile is 25 tones only.

I think he may be correct.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 07 Feb 2013 23:44

The relation between these two statements means the error margins are stringent during launch phase:

Saurav Jha: DRDO recently completed developmental tests of the K-15 even as it is moving towards canisterised systems on land. Did this move towards canisterisation grow out of DRDO's underwater launch programmes?

Avinash Chander: Well, activity in this domain has been going on for sometime now. Our success with underwater launch technology did give us added confidence in the domain of canisterised systems. We are now quite confident in this area and all future Agni series missiles are likely to be canisterised and that might include the Agni-4.

Saurav Jha: DRDO now has proven capability in the domain of long range ballistic missile systems. But some would say that achieving precision accuracy from these missiles at very long ranges is dependent on something beyond DRDO's control i.e on the availability of reliable global positioning satellite co-ordinates to remove cumulative errors. Given that India is yet to roll out its own GPS, how would you respond to this?

Avinash Chander: The most important part of a long range missile's journey is actually the launch phase, which if effective provides the greatest accuracy. So if your error rate is low to begin with, all that you need is a few fixes in between as you approach the target and that cannot be denied to us, as nobody can jam on a global level.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 07 Feb 2013 23:52

I was really hoping that DRDO would showcase a model of the Nirbhay at this year's AI. They said it is to be tested this month, but there is no model that they have ever shown of it.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 08 Feb 2013 04:37

nachiket wrote:I was really hoping that DRDO would showcase a model of the Nirbhay at this year's AI. They said it is to be tested this month, but there is no model that they have ever shown of it.

Probably they are thinking

Why show a model when we can showcase the real beast this month

BTB, which missile except Brahmos has been showcased before it has been launched?

Is there any relevance to Trishul SAM anymore? it seems to be surfacing almost in every show of late?!?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Feb 2013 09:23

Shrinivasan wrote: BTB, which missile except Brahmos has been showcased before it has been launched?

Astra. Naag.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 08 Feb 2013 09:37

Just to silence my inner jingo jumping..could last trial of B05 be the first trial from INS Arihant ?

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 08 Feb 2013 09:51

I have a question for all gurus..
In case, may we air lift long range missile( like A -3,5). We nave giangentic air lifter for upto 60 t category.The dimension of the missile would be an issue to uplift in one piece but we may do this with each missile stage seperately.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Feb 2013 09:54

keshavchandra wrote:I have a question for all gurus..
In case, may we air lift long range missile( like A -3,5). We nave giangentic air lifter for upto 60 t category.The dimension of the missile would be an issue to uplift in one piece but we may do this with each missile stage seperately.

Not a guru but why not let the missile airlift itself to wherever it needs to go?

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 08 Feb 2013 09:57

keshavchandra wrote:I have a question for all gurus..
In case, may we air lift long range missile( like A -3,5). We nave giangentic air lifter for upto 60 t category.The dimension of the missile would be an issue to uplift in one piece but we may do this with each missile stage seperately.

Do you want to fire the missile from up above in the sky saar.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 08 Feb 2013 10:01

shiv wrote:
keshavchandra wrote:I have a question for all gurus..
In case, may we air lift long range missile( like A -3,5). We nave giangentic air lifter for upto 60 t category.The dimension of the missile would be an issue to uplift in one piece but we may do this with each missile stage seperately.
Not a guru but why not let the missile airlift itself to wherever it needs to go?

shiv sir, my cencern was to air lift it from the production site to lounch point. As we have have defined road carriers for a give missile system, but in a extreme situation, may it would be a time and quick option to air lift it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Feb 2013 10:11

keshavchandra wrote:my cencern was to air lift it from the production site to lounch point..

That means the launch point will have to sit next to a huge airfield and the missile can be taken out while transporting the last 200 meters from the aircraft or launch prevented by taking out the airfield.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 08 Feb 2013 10:15

SagarAg wrote:Just to silence my inner jingo jumping..could last trial of B05 be the first trial from INS Arihant ?

Not quite what I wanted to show but this is what I came up with 5 minute of cutting and pasting.

The missile emerges from the sea exactly as it would have been if there was a submarine between those 2 points.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 08 Feb 2013 10:16

That took 5 minutes, Sir?

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 08 Feb 2013 10:17

PratikDas wrote:That took 5 minutes, Sir?

Itna bhi bura nahi hai. Image to ulta karne mein time lag gaya.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 08 Feb 2013 10:18

Prem Kumar wrote:K-15 is a "Shaped Trajectory System" - I love that terminology!

SLBMs do exhibit such characteristics as application demands such behaviour. Bulava for example, if shot straight as bullet, covers around 500km.

Prithvi and in turn Dhanush do such characteristics(it can shape its trajectory) as one can gleam from open info. So why K-15 is alone referred as STS?

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 08 Feb 2013 10:44

shiv wrote:
keshavchandra wrote:my cencern was to air lift it from the production site to lounch point..
That means the launch point will have to sit next to a huge airfield and the missile can be taken out while transporting the last 200 meters from the aircraft or launch prevented by taking out the airfield.

It is true, as it would complex in between the supply parts and also statch it further.
As we have many air base close to western and north-eastern border and most of the missile production site are in southern part, so via road it would kill 4 to 5 days during transit period.
As a option, we may re assemble the missile at the air base if require and for further movement to launch site just use the road transport.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 08 Feb 2013 13:06

India developing Agni-VI ballistic missile
PTI | Feb 8, 2013, 12.27 PM IST
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 397389.cms

DRDO has revealed that India is developing Agni VI ballistic missile.

BANGALORE: India is developing a long-range nuclear-capable Agni-VI ballistic missile that would carry multiple warheads allowing one weapon system to take out several targets at a time.

"Agni-V is major strategic defence weapon. Now we want to make Agni-VI which would be a force multiplier," DRDO chief V K Saraswat said here on Friday.

Refusing to divulge the range of the new under-development missile, he said the force multiplier capability of the missile would be because of its multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicle (MIRV) capability. [/b]

The Agni-5 ballistic missile, which was test-fired in April last year, has a range of upto 5,500 kms and it is believed that the Agni-6 would have a range longer than its predecessor.

"It will have force multiplier capability by the MIRV approach which would enable us to deliver many payloads at the same time using only one missile.

"Work is on in this area and designs have been completed. We are now in the hardware realisation phase," he said.

DRDO officials said once the Agni-6 is developed, it would propel India into the elite club of nations with such a capability including the US and Russia.

The DRDO chief said his organisation was also working towards developing a cruise missile defence programme which would enable the armed forces to defend against low-flying cruise missiles and enemy aircraft.

Same News also carried by Deccan Herald
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/310 ... istic.html

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 08 Feb 2013 13:12

~~Is DRDO developing any unguided 70 to 80 mm air to surface rockets?~~
Dr. Saraswat said that DRDO is developing a 57 mm unguided rocket system and that it's first test flight was done in 2007. Which rocket system is he talking about?

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 08 Feb 2013 13:53

^^
Some years back I had read an IDR advert/article of a 'wall in the air' rocket system. Basically all the submunitions ejected from an unguided rocket fired from a helo would drop near the target.

Tried to google for it but got nothing.

What kind of unguided rocket system would require such a long test schedule?

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 08 Feb 2013 14:09

^^^^^ OFB conducted the test is Aug-Sept 2007.
It was suppose to be similar to S-5. Similarly 80 mm S-8 and 240 mm S-24 B was/is being (reverse)-engineered.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 08 Feb 2013 15:05

That means they want to indigenize the whole family of unguided rockets. Were we importing these uptill now?

Alternatively and SPECULATIVELY, they could be trying some of these ideas which I do expect to take that much time:

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusr ... ckets.html

Lockheed/BEI ARS
In 1991, the U.S. Army and Navy issued a request for proposals for the ARS (Advanced Rocket System), which was to be a 2.75-inch rocket to replace existing Hydra 70 and 5-inch Zuni rockets. The ARS requirements called for a rocket to propel a 4.5 kg (10 lb) warhead to a speed of at least 1000 m/s (3280 fps) and an effective range of at least 10000 m (11000 yds). The rocket was to comply with Navy standards for insensitive munitions. Multiple interchangeable types of warhead were to be used, together with an inflight-programmable fuze.

A development contract was awarded to Lockheed Missiles and Space and BEI Defense in July 1992, and full-rate production was at that time expected for 1997. However, the ARS program was cancelled in 1995, after the Army had already pulled out in 1994.

General Dymanics APKWS / BAE APKWS II
In 1996, the U.S. Army formulated a requirement for an APKWS (Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System) to close the gap in capability and cost between the unguided Hydra 70 rockets and the sophisticated AGM-114 Hellfire anti-armour guided missile. The Army needed a small and accurate weapon against non-hardened point targets especially in environments with a high risk of collateral damage, like e.g. in urban warfare. To fulfill the APKWS requirement, a guided development of the Hydra 70 rocket (also known as LCPK (Low Cost Precision Kill) 2.75-inch rocket) was selected. This missile will use the MK 66 motor with a new warhead/guidance section assembly, and will therefore be instantly compatible with all existing 70 mm rocket launchers in the U.S. inventory.

The initial variant of General Dynamics' APKWS was to use the M151 warhead combined with a low-cost semi-active laser seeker and small forward flip-out wings for flight control. The weapon was expected to have an accuracy of better than 1 m (3.3 ft) CEP.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 08 Feb 2013 20:33

^^^^ Sorry to disappoint you.. no fancy technological stuff is causing the delay.
The delay and long indigenization process is because of same-old service vs DRDO and highly ambitious GSQR story. Following 2010 paper by Group Captain Bhanoji Rao answers the intricacies..

http://www.aerospaceindia.org/Air%20Pow ... er%202.pdf

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 08 Feb 2013 20:37

ramana wrote:dinesha, What about ABR-2000? Still goin gon?

No update about the stuff.. will try to find and post..

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 08 Feb 2013 22:24

click for hi-res

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Feb 2013 01:07

Can somebody inquire a little about Smart Anti-airfield Weapon (SAW) System. It is a air launched long-range standoff precision guided air to ground weapon system.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Feb 2013 04:30

dinesha wrote:^^^^ Sorry to disappoint you.. no fancy technological stuff is causing the delay.
The delay and long indigenization process is because of same-old service vs DRDO and highly ambitious GSQR story. Following 2010 paper by Group Captain Bhanoji Rao answers the intricacies..

http://www.aerospaceindia.org/Air%20Pow ... er%202.pdf

Pretty good chapter. Is there more?

one of the IAF who used to visit here said that the CBU was not localized even with A British unit available for reverse engineering.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Feb 2013 07:22

Prem Kumar wrote:Interesting interview. By "higher leakage probability", I guess he means that, with decoys the main warhead has a higher probability of getting through ABMs

In his last line, he says

So if your error rate is low to begin with, all that you need is a few fixes in between as you approach the target and that cannot be denied to us, as nobody can jam on a global level.

This seems to imply that for at least some long range BMs, we do get a GPS fix for mid course corrections

K-15 is a "Shaped Trajectory System" - I love that terminology!

I would not think a "long range" BM would rely on GPS for corrections. It does not take a second to snap it by the khans against detection., and they can take it down by sending in numbers as they would consider even decoys as much worth as a missile.. in the sense, the ground protection value is million times greater than defeating a decoy. just kill it, and continue on killing other BMs., in a typical scenario.

I am sure the cold war heroes have different strategies, but considering their number games, it would be worth while even preventing one to return to earth. And this was all about START and number game theory. equal-equal is what makes them feel safe.

gosh!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Feb 2013 10:17

Indo-Russian Supersonic Cruise Missile, BrahMos - From Concept To Product

Dr. Sivathanu Pillai, speaking at the Aero India 2013 Airshow Seminar

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 09 Feb 2013 15:08

ramana wrote:
dinesha wrote:^^^^ Sorry to disappoint you.. no fancy technological stuff is causing the delay.
The delay and long indigenization process is because of same-old service vs DRDO and highly ambitious GSQR story. Following 2010 paper by Group Captain Bhanoji Rao answers the intricacies..

http://www.aerospaceindia.org/Air%20Pow ... er%202.pdf

Pretty good chapter. Is there more?

one of the IAF who used to visit here said that the CBU was not localized even with A British unit available for reverse engineering.

Other paper from the qrt.

CH:1 FORCE MODERNISATION:CHALLENGES
http://www.aerospaceindia.org/Air%20Pow ... er%201.pdf

CH3:PLAAF IN TRANSITION: 1979-93
http://www.aerospaceindia.org/Air%20Pow ... er%203.pdf

CH4:CHINA’S ELECTRONIC AND CYBER WARFARE CAPABILITIES
http://www.aerospaceindia.org/Air%20Pow ... er%204.pdf

CH5:TOWARDS A NUCLEAR WEAPON FREE WORLD: INDIAN PERSPECTIVES
http://www.aerospaceindia.org/Air%20Pow ... er%205.pdf

CH6: NATIONAL SECURITY MECHANISM AND THE HDO
http://www.aerospaceindia.org/Air%20Pow ... er%206.pdf

CH7:TECHNOLOGY: A HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE
http://www.aerospaceindia.org/Air%20Pow ... er%207.pdf

Archives and current journals : http://www.aerospaceindia.org/journals.htm

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Feb 2013 15:43

Interesting Dr Pillai says in Q&A session that Brahmos range will be increased and that MTCR does not covers cruise missile and that Brahmos will not be equipped with N warhead.

Later the Chairman mentioned such questions wont be answered

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 09 Feb 2013 18:37

Personally I was shocked that Dr pillai spoke in detail about all these issues.
He even mentioned some of the companies and what they were doing. I am not sure such limelight is necessary

I feel that there should be self censorship when the heads are speaking in public.
I wonder, this is why the videshis would love to invite our program directors and top people and ask them questions in the q&a session or informally, and over a period of time with little tid bits they are able to build a whole picture of the true capabilities and thereby make a reasonable assessment of potential weaknesses.

The people in the top really need to know or be made to know how to gracefully side step some questions.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Feb 2013 03:59

Its the Vikrama Vetal *syndrome.

I have seen many times a GOI official just spills the beans to any sundry questioner spouting his own brilliance.

* Vetal tells King Vikrama if you know the truth and you lie your head will explode! Arre baba thats only a story. No need to think everyone is has vetal powers.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Feb 2013 04:24

There is an interesting article in a journal about the Iskander missile.Our Prithvi appears to bear similarities,perhaps K-15 too.The range is in far excess of export models (300km),has a highl;y manoeuverable quasi-ballistic trajectory",alt. 50km,tercom seeker,mixed guidance,no GPS-inertial at initial and medium phases of flight and correlation/extreme at the terminal phase,uses tercom comparisons with computer image.It carry a nuke warhead.Range 500km,but a new version has a range of 2500km (cruise missile version?) is being built in large numbers and will be deployed if NATO continues to station ABMs and anti-ship missiles in Poland,former eastern bloc nations.Incorporates stealth tech,spl. coatings,etc.Touted to be almost impossible to shoot down.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Feb 2013 04:34

well, thank you for the video.. i am happy that vetal can get back to tamrind tree to do the job. all is well.