Bharat Rakshak

Great Vivek is Back in Action. Good to see you posting again. But do take care of your health issues.

Good to know that you are recovered sir.

Viveksahib, very well written. But I wonder why armor is deployed without air cover, which, especially the helicopters would have attacked the M109s. What about UCAVS?

There must be support to negate enemy units that are out of reach of armor, especially those that can destroy armor.

Just my thoughts, please excuse.

Welcome back !!!
Good to see you back with a BANG!!!

Sorry to hear about your shoulder
Glad to see you back.

THIRTY KILOMETERS EAST OF RAHIM YAR KHAN
PAKISTAN
DAY 1 + 0925 HRS

“Copper-two-five, do you…do you see that cloud of dust, half kilometer east of that wavy set of sand dunes? Over.” The confused voice on the radio asked.

There was a silence of several seconds before another voice chimed in: “Uh…‘wavy’ set of dunes, Copper-actual? What wavy set of dunes? Nothing but wavy sets of dunes down there. Over.”

“Come around on my six, enemy convoy on my three, relative. Do you see it?

“Hang on. Coming around…” the second voice said and the increased noise of jet engines lit up the comms for several seconds. “…okay, I see the cloud on your three, Copper-actual. But they are friendly convoys returning from the front?”

“What? Aren’t we on the right grid?”

“It’s the right grid, sir. Just that the targets have moved. I cannot tell whether I am seeing friendly IR strobes, enemy decoy strobes or just the damned hot sand flying all over!”
“And,” the first voice added, “I have radar warning spiking up from the west. This is not a friendly place to be. Goddamn it, two-five. Standby,” the original voice answered with a rasp punctuated with gasps of air taken through an oxygen mask. “Copper-actual to Copper-central. We can’t distinguish between friend and foe over here. Thermal markers are ineffective in the heat and we cannot, repeat: cannot, eyeball targets visually. Friendly armor has moved since we arrived on station and comms are noisy. Suggest we scrap this one off the board and RTB. Over.”

“Negative, Copper-actual! You are to deploy weapons on target! Over!”

“You want me to bomb our own guys, Copper-central? I am not deploying weapons without positive ID on targets. You want to circumvent that directive, I suggest you come here and do it yourselves! Addendum: find that incompetent flying-officer directing this from the ground who fu@ked this one up and strap him to the next round of cruise missiles you launch into the enemy! Copper-actual is aborting this strike on local authority. Over and out.” A few seconds later: “Let’s get out of here, two-five.”

“Roger. Egressing.”



Kulkarni had had his helmet headset pressed to his left ear and his eyes closed through the entire conversation between the air-force pilots circling above and their airborne commanders further east. Past experience against the Chinese in Ladakh had taught Kulkarni the hard way that whenever friendly aircraft were overhead with precision munitions and looking for targets, hearing in on their chatter was sometimes the difference between a successful strike and a catastrophic friendly-fire incident.

And he wasn’t relying of hear-say either. He had seen for himself how the 10TH Mechanized Battalion had lost two BMP-II armored vehicles and an entire platoon worth of nearby soldiers to a mistaken strike from a lone air-force Jaguar strike aircraft in the final days of the brutal Ladakh campaign. The pilot of that aircraft had mistaken the retreating pair of vehicles as advancing enemy armored personnel carriers and had taken them both out with dumb bombs. After-action analysis had absolved the pilot of error and attributed the incident to chaotic combat and unclear frontlines…as well as lack of cooperation between the land and air services.

Now he was seeing the pendulum swing the other way. Air-force pilots were following close-air-support protocol to the letter. Which unfortunately meant that strike packages would return without delivering their ordinance rather than risk striking friendly forces. Personally, Kulkarni wished he could have joined the conversation that had just taken place and ordered the pilots to take the risk and drop their payloads. Every enemy tank that was destroyed before it engaged Rhino was a tank that would not exact casualties from Indian tankers.

My tankers! Kulkarni fumed as he opened his eyes and his mind adjusted back to the insides of his Arjun tank. Despite the rumble and chatter going on within his tanks, he could swear he heard the bitter noise of the two Jaguar strike aircraft receding away to the west, weapons and payload intact…

Kulkarni’s commander comms frequency flared up: “What the hell just happened? Where’s our strike?” Kulkarni recognized Rhino-three commander’s voice instantly.
“No go, -three. The pilots cannot distinguish foes and friendlies. Strike has been aborted.”

He heard what amounted to a very passionate muttering of Hindi expletives on the comms before Rhino-three chimed back: “Typical.”
“Looks like we will have to do this the hard way!” Kulkarni stated blandly.
“Negative, leader. It’s our way, not the hard way! Rhino-three out!”

Kulkarni allowed himself a brief smile at the corner of his mouth on that one. But a glance at the ABAMS screen took that smile away. They were now close enough to the Pakistani armor force from their 1ST Armored Division that he was forced to zoom in further to separate his forces from the enemy. Blue markers showed his force advancing roughly north. The opposing green markers were shown as moving south-east, towards the Islamgarh breach point on the border. Kulkarni was under no illusion that the Pakistani armor commanders intended to overrun Rhino and make a break to the border to reclaim the enlarging chunk of land that had now fallen under the treads of Indian tanks out here.

And the ABAMS screen showed Kulkarni that should they succeed in overrunning Rhino, there was not much to prevent the enemy from achieving that goal. The Trishul mechanized convoys would not survive a frontal attack by heavy tanks. Not for long, anyway.

Kulkarni swiveled the ABAMS screen out of his way and peered into his commander sights. He brought up his comms mouthpiece:
“Rhino-actual to all elements, -one and –three. Imminent enemy contact! Fix bayonets and prepare for a knife fight! Out.” He chimed out.

“Targets?” He asked his gunner as the tank rumbled over yet another large dune. Kulkarni could see Arjun tanks on either side of him doing the same. The way Rhino-one and Rhino-three were staggered, there were echelon groups of Arjun tanks rolling over the uneven terrain here. Rhino-three was to his south and was his “right hook”, which would swing down from the east on the enemy’s left flank if such an opportunity presented itself. Of course, if Rhino-one took excessive casualties, Rhino-three was also positioned to provide the second layer of tanks to reinforce the first group. It was all about the commander’s options. Kulkarni wanted to have as many of them as he could as the fluid battle shaped itself…

“Just a mass of dust clouds rising into the sky from the north,” the gunner replied without looking away from his optics. “Our friends are still rolling south.”

“Keep our welcome presents hot and ready!” Kulkarni noted to his loader, who was now sweating profusely and showing visible signs of nervousness. Kulkarni worried about his driver and loader more than his gunner. Partly because his gunner seemed to thrive on the chaos of combat and had ice water in his veins and partly because he had seen armor combat alongside Kulkarni in Ladakh. His other crew members were more raw and had no prior combat experience. This would be their first taste of armor combat.

Their baptism by fire.

“Contact! I have contact! Three kilometers at twelve-o-clock!” the gunner shouted, causing the loader to jerk in shock. Kulkarni peered back through his optics.
“Wait for a clear shot!” Kulkarni shouted and then switched comms: “Rhino-actual to all elements! Contact! Contact! Maneuver offset by forty degrees! Take your shots!”

On that command, the twenty-three Rhino-one tanks swiveled by forty degrees to east, but kept their turrets aimed north on independent stabilization on targets. This presented the enemy with a sideways moving force which was harder to adjust for in the fire-control-systems than a head-on charging force. To further complicate matters, Kulkarni had tasked his force to follow a zig-zag maneuver where the enemy gunners could not apply a constant lead on the sideways motion on the Indian tanks. For its part, the advanced fire-control computers on the Arjun compensated for the motion and stabilized the turret and evaluated the motion leads without too much hassle for the gunner. It wasn’t as easy as point-n-shoot, but it was close…

Kulkarni felt his tank shudder and the turret fill up with slight smoke as the main gun recoiled and dumped an empty shell casing.

“Shot away!” The gunner shouted. Kulkarni watched the round rip up the sandy terrain as it flew horizontal and low and went into the front glacis armor of the incoming Pakistani Al-khalid tank. The shot splattered into a fireball of sparks and smoke and then dissipated as the enemy tank shuddered to a halt. Moments later the engine compartment of that tank started spewing smoke.

“On target! Move-on!” Kulkarni confirmed for his gunner. The turret was already swiveling to the left. His optics flared white as the next shot shook the tank and went on its way. It missed its intended foe and flew over the latter’s turret.

“Too high! Compensating!”

Kulkarni turned his attention to other matters. He swiveled his optics left and right and saw that a massive tank battle was now underway. Both sides were trading shots and the cohesiveness of Rhino-one was dissipating away. That was to be expected, of course. Which is exactly why Rhino-three was sitting further south: its tanks were rolled into a cohesive fist of steel…

“Hold on,” the driver interrupted. “We are going over a dune!”

Kulkarni and three Arjun tanks to his north went over the dunes almost in formation. As they came over the dunes and went down the other side, the gunners got back into action again. The Arjun tank furthest to the north exploded in a fireball. Its debris flew radially in all directions.

“Oh god! Rhino-one-ten is gone! I say again, one-ten is burning up!”

The comms were instantly alive with the shocked voices of novice tankers. The hardened veterans just kept their heads down.

Kulkarni turned his optics north just as his tank shuddered again. The smoke and smell inside his turret was becoming unbearable already. But what he saw outside was even worse. There were now seventeen pillars of black smoke rising into the blue skies above. Dust was everywhere and the ground was a churned mush of tank treads. Visibility was fast diminishing and his initial initiative was giving way to a chaotic melee. Kulkarni swiped the sweat dripping into his eyes now and made observations.

As he watched, a Pakistani Al-Khalid tank rumbled around the burning chassis of another Pakistani tank and made its way out of the bellowing smoke…straight in front of Kulkarni’s tank and another to his right. Kulkarni’s gunner was aimed the other way to engage some other tank behind this one…

Kulkarni shouted the warning: “Oh shit! Gunner! Enemy armor contact point blank! Twelve-o-clo…!” The sentence was killed midsentence by the fire of the main gun on the Pakistani tank. A split second later the forward chassis of the Arjun tank on Kulkarni’s right exploded into a million pieces and showered the entire area nearby with falling debris. The burning Arjun tank shuddered to a halt with the main gun bent at an awkward angle and the front chassis burning furiously.

Kulkarni turned in horror to see the Pakistani gunner swivel his main gun by thirty degrees to point at Kulkarni’s tank just around the same time as Kulkarni’s gunner did the same. He expected death to come instantly. Kulkarni’s tank shuddered and the Al-khalid tank literally fell backwards against the momentum of the point-blank sabot round fired by Kulkarni’s gunner. A second later it exploded from the bottom up and the turret fell to the side amidst a tower of flame…

“Target destroyed!”

Kulkarni allowed himself to breathe again and could see his heart pounding against his ribcage. That was too fu@king close!

He turned his optics right and saw that they were now leaving Rhino-one-five behind now. The two enemy tanks three hundred meters to his north were burning into blackened hulls already. But the smoke from these tanks and all the others were obscuring all visibility around the surviving tanks. A haze of brown and black had now replaced the blue skies and sunlight. The scenery reminded Kulkarni of the Kuwaiti battlefields from the first Gulf war. The only light that seemed to enter this haze was from the flashes of main gun rounds as they left their barrels.

That was where ABAMS came into its own. As the blue-force-tracker that it was, Kulkarni could see all of his tanks against a terrain overlay. Those that were alive, anyway. The Pakistanis had no such capability. This allowed Kulkarni to maneuver his force regardless of outside visibility, detrimental as it was to the gunners. He could, if he wished, extricate his force from chaos and regroup further away.

Had that moment arrived?

That was the key question. And the answer was that Kulkarni couldn’t say. He had lost six tanks so far based on their absence from the ABAMS screen. Four others were mobility killed and were fighting as standing-pillboxes. Three others were reporting minor damage.

The enemy was doing much worse. One of the features in ABAMS was the ability for each crew to mark targets for the others. That way, all tanks connected to the ABAMS net could coordinate strikes and maneuvers. But right now the ABAMS screen was only showing a handful of enemy targets marked. Could it be that in the heat of battle, his tank commanders were not updating the net?
Kulkarni opened Rhino-one comms: “Rhino-actual to all Rhino-one tanks on this net: mark targets and status! Out.”

He turned back to the screen and saw that the status was reiterated as before, but of the five remaining enemy tanks, only three got marked. They had destroyed this enemy armor force.

Or had they? Kulkarni zoomed the view out and saw that they had indeed run into about a battalion of enemy armor here. There was another battalion of the 1ST Pakistani Armored Division to his east. And they had no clue what had knifed through their sister battalion on their left flank. Could he now dig into this second battalion from their rear by cutting north from here? Maybe. But first, he needed to extricate Rhino-one from this mess.

“Driver, traverse north. Get us out of here!” Kulkarni ordered.
He felt his tank shudder to a halt and then swivel northerly, raking sand up all around as the two treads moved opposite to each other. Then the sudden burst of acceleration and increased rumble from his diesel engines. He switched comms:

“Rhino-actual to all Rhino-one tanks: follow my lead. Those that are mobility-killed will hold positions. All others, form up! Rhino-three: bring yourself up. Rhino-actual is taking over –one and –three. Over.”
“Rhino-three copies all, leader. All yours.”

“Good. We have driven the bayonet into the enemy’s gut, gentlemen. Now’s the time to twist it and watch him die! Rhino-actual out.”

Thanks vivek i was waiting for you to continue the story and Get well soon

Viveksahib,

Is there no communication between forward troops/armor and overhead CAS aircraft?

Isnt there an artillery element following up, maybe 20Km or even 30Km behind the armor thrust?

Should not helicopters be available to support the armor?

Do NAG carriers travel with armor?

Armor seems naked. In the 21st century we should not fight as in WWII.

Just some thoughts.

I guess the following questions have been asked me several times in different formats, so perhaps I should clarify:

Is there no communication between forward troops/armor and overhead CAS aircraft?

Typically, the forward air controllers on the ground are the ones who coordinate air strikes whilst deployed with frontline troops. The standard army units do not maintain any direct contacts with the air units. Mostly to avoid confusion, chaos and errors. If the group controller screws up (say, provides the incorrect grid references, incorrect target ID or markers), then the pilots overhead have the authority to override and abort strikes. The main communication is between these two groups of personnel. The other units could, possibly, listen in on the comms, but otherwise are not authorized to jump in unless say, friendly positions are about to be hit accidentally.

Isnt there an artillery element following up, maybe 20Km or even 30Km behind the armor thrust?

There is. If you look up the previous posts, units under the code-tag "Bushfire" are the designated arty for "Rhino". Composed of Pinaka and Prahaar missile units. Also the Corps level Brahmos unit (Bushfire-zulu). That said, the speed of advance of fast moving armor columns means that arty is not as effective as say, against fixed bunkers, enemy arty batteries and command centers. Especially, firing arty against fast closing armor columns is very inefficient. Plus risky, considering how close the friendly and enemy armor columns can get in a short while. So in this scenario, Bushfire stays back and supports by taking out enemy command centers, arty batteries and other targets of opportunity.

Should not helicopters be available to support the armor?

Yes, they should. And they are. Thats all I will say for now on that front.

Do NAG carriers travel with armor?

Not always. The mechanized columns can carry them alongside packets of assigned armor. But a purely armor column will not carry these. The time it takes to deploy the missiles from a carrier, the weak armor and generally less mobility compared to standard armor means that these are more defensive weapons than they are offensive ones. They can be used to ambush incoming enemy armor from hidden locations where they can offset their weak armor. Also, they can deploy missiles when stationary (or at best slowly moving on flat terrain) and are restricted by line-of-sight problems. So they are not useful for close-in armor engagements that happen fast and over very uneven terrain.

Armor seems naked. In the 21st century we should not fight as in WWII.

It only seems that way. The technology allowed inside a tank like the Arjun allows that level of freedom and autonomy that most other units cannot afford. They may not be directly ahead of other units, but the increased range of all projectile weapons and increased network-centric environment (Arjun ABAMS, for example) allow much much higher distances between supporting elements of a battle group. This is something completely unlike previous wars.

As a mental exercise, see for yourself how the typical gap between engaging elements of two sides has been increasing in every consecutive war since the first world war. Also consider what the trend is for the distance between supporting elements in each such war.

Vivek ... the read could be possibly lost here...
May I play this for you

THIRTY KILOMETERS EAST OF RAHIM YAR KHAN
PAKISTAN
DAY 1 + 0925 HRS


As he watched, a Pakistani Al-Khalid tank rumbled around the burning chassis of another Pakistani tank and made its way out of the bellowing smoke…straight in front of Kulkarni’s tank and another to his right. Kulkarni’s gunner was aimed the other way to engage some other tank behind this one…
Comments: Understood that a PAKI tank makes it past the burning chasis of another PAKI Tank and Kulkarni's gun(turret) is aimed at another tank. However I am going to call this tank LT1

Kulkarni shouted the warning: “Oh shit! Gunner! Enemy armor contact point blank! Twelve-o-clo…!” The sentence was killed midsentence by the fire of the main gun on the Pakistani tank.
Comments: Kulkarni asks his gunner to swivel straight and engage the tank that is directly opposite his tank (LT1) and I assume here that the LT1 has fired back at another Arjun Tank (not Kulkarni).

A split second later the forward chassis of the Arjun tank on Kulkarni’s right exploded into a million pieces and showered the entire area nearby with falling debris. The burning Arjun tank shuddered to a halt with the main gun bent at an awkward angle and the front chassis burning furiously.
Comments: Kulkarni observes LT1 killing an Arjun and the description around chasis burning and gun being bent is of another Arjun.

Kulkarni turned in horror to see the Pakistani gunner swivel his main gun by thirty degrees to point at Kulkarni’s tank just around the same time as Kulkarni’s gunner did the same. He expected death to come instantly. Kulkarni’s tank shuddered and the Al-khalid tank literally fell backwards against the momentum of the point-blank sabot round fired by Kulkarni’s gunner. A second later it exploded from the bottom up and the turret fell to the side amidst a tower of flame…
Comments: Kulkarni tank engages the LT1 mere seconds before the LT1 fires at Kulkarni and kills LT1.
“Target destroyed!”

Comments: Perhaps my only suggestion is to write in another line about LT1's intentions and the view from LT1's scope.
i.e. you are telling the viewers that while Kulkarni's gunner is engaging a different Al Khalid.
LT1 is engaging a different Arjun. Meanwhile the commanders are eyeing each other.


Many thanks

Hope your shoulder is well my friend
So bloody good to have you back.

Welcome Back Vivek <Thumbs Up>

vivek ji, thank you. get well soon!

@Khalsa Ji..

My first impression was that kulkarni's Gunner some how managed to destroy the paki armour with its bent gun. then accelerated away to join the Rhino3 with its forward chassis destroyed(???)

I had to read this part three times carefully and then realized that the Paki tank had engaged a different Arjun.

apart from that, Excellent narration as usual..

vivek_ahuja wrote:I guess the following questions have been asked me several times in different formats, so perhaps I should clarify:

Is there no communication between forward troops/armor and overhead CAS aircraft?

Typically, the forward air controllers on the ground are the ones who coordinate air strikes whilst deployed with frontline troops. The standard army units do not maintain any direct contacts with the air units. Mostly to avoid confusion, chaos and errors. If the group controller screws up (say, provides the incorrect grid references, incorrect target ID or markers), then the pilots overhead have the authority to override and abort strikes. The main communication is between these two groups of personnel. The other units could, possibly, listen in on the comms, but otherwise are not authorized to jump in unless say, friendly positions are about to be hit accidentally.

Isnt there an artillery element following up, maybe 20Km or even 30Km behind the armor thrust?

There is. If you look up the previous posts, units under the code-tag "Bushfire" are the designated arty for "Rhino". Composed of Pinaka and Prahaar missile units. Also the Corps level Brahmos unit (Bushfire-zulu). That said, the speed of advance of fast moving armor columns means that arty is not as effective as say, against fixed bunkers, enemy arty batteries and command centers. Especially, firing arty against fast closing armor columns is very inefficient. Plus risky, considering how close the friendly and enemy armor columns can get in a short while. So in this scenario, Bushfire stays back and supports by taking out enemy command centers, arty batteries and other targets of opportunity.

Should not helicopters be available to support the armor?

Yes, they should. And they are. Thats all I will say for now on that front.

Do NAG carriers travel with armor?

Not always. The mechanized columns can carry them alongside packets of assigned armor. But a purely armor column will not carry these. The time it takes to deploy the missiles from a carrier, the weak armor and generally less mobility compared to standard armor means that these are more defensive weapons than they are offensive ones. They can be used to ambush incoming enemy armor from hidden locations where they can offset their weak armor. Also, they can deploy missiles when stationary (or at best slowly moving on flat terrain) and are restricted by line-of-sight problems. So they are not useful for close-in armor engagements that happen fast and over very uneven terrain.

Armor seems naked. In the 21st century we should not fight as in WWII.

It only seems that way. The technology allowed inside a tank like the Arjun allows that level of freedom and autonomy that most other units cannot afford. They may not be directly ahead of other units, but the increased range of all projectile weapons and increased network-centric environment (Arjun ABAMS, for example) allow much much higher distances between supporting elements of a battle group. This is something completely unlike previous wars.

As a mental exercise, see for yourself how the typical gap between engaging elements of two sides has been increasing in every consecutive war since the first world war. Also consider what the trend is for the distance between supporting elements in each such war.

Vivek sahib,

Thank you for setting me right, as usual.

Can I ask if such a thrust would be without CAP and without an AWACS somewhere in the background?

AND whether the AWACS would be able to read the ground situation and guide the CAS?

Thanks.

One mango man question - How good is Kanchan against the 126MM round from a tank of Al Kalid or some other such rubbish. Will one shot at a fairly close distance like the one described above will be ok to kill a Arjun?

My understanding was tanks with very good protection can withstand even a direct hit at a reasonable distance.

I think the Pakistanis use DU rounds..

Ya. May be that is the answer.

Also note that the hit to the Arjun was in the chassis, not the front panels of the turret. You don't need to blow up the entire tank to destroy it.

Dear Vivek sahib,

Should an IBG not have turret mounted artillery to move along with armor?

VKumar wrote:Dear Vivek sahib,

Should an IBG not have turret mounted artillery to move along with armor?

If we ever buy any, it will.

I guess Vivek is assuming the artillery situation in the IA, in the time-frame of his scenario, to be similar to what it is now, except for the induction of additional rocket artillery systems and Prahaar and Brahmos missile regiments.

nachiket wrote:

VKumar wrote:Dear Vivek sahib,

Should an IBG not have turret mounted artillery to move along with armor?

If we ever buy any, it will.

I guess Vivek is assuming the artillery situation in the IA, in the time-frame of his scenario, to be similar to what it is now, except for the induction of additional rocket artillery systems and Prahaar and Brahmos missile regiments.

Correct. The idea is to keep things realistic with logical and accepted extrapolations. Weapon systems that are deployed now or are planned to be deployed in the next few years are included. And even then in quantities and capacities as reflected by their deployment timelines.

Trying to stay away from fantasies here. One such clear fantasy is the Indian army ever getting decent artillery designed to win wars in a mechanized battlefield.

-Vivek

NEW DELHI
DAY 1 + 1110 HRS

Those b@stards.

Ravoof said as he watched the video of the local Pakistani channels showing the massive cloud of dust rising from Indian missile strikes against Pakistani targets near Rahim Yar Khan and other places near Lahore. The Indian military was at work dismantling the Pakistani armed forces. The latter’s air force was already on the defensive in all sectors. It was as though the attack was unstoppable.
Almost.

The one thing that was always a card with the Pakistanis was the nuclear one. If nuclear weapons would be used was not really a question. When and how will they be used? The ‘how’ was not on Ravoof’s mind though. The ‘when’ part was.

What would be the trigger? The threshold? The invisible line in the sand beyond which there was no turning back?

Could this be one? He thought as he watched the Pakistani channels fixated on the largish mushroom clouds that had flattened the outskirts of the village east of Rahim Yar Khan. Some of his army contacts at Army HQ had confirmed these as tactical missile strikes inside Pakistan by the X Corps forces in Rajasthan. But that was the point. They were large tactical missiles. Not nuclear ones. The Pakistani news channels, however, were whipping up a frenzy by running banners and streamers calling these clouds as nuclear detonations.

And that, Ravoof reasoned, was fu@king dangerous! Not least because there was as yet no sign of the Pakistani Prime Minister. There were rumors that the Pakistani military had taken over and had detained him. Perhaps he had been killed in one of the Indian air-force strikes against high value targets in Islamabad and Rawalpindi. Perhaps he was choosing to stay low and keep his head down until things stabilized. Either way, he was out of the picture. At least according to the RAW people. General Sharkreil Hussein was now that man to watch, as far as Ravoof was concerned. And that b@stard was shrewd and ruthless. What was his nuclear trigger? His threshold?

Ravoof walked over to the phone on the desk and dialed a number from memory. The number rang two times before going through the secure encryption tag noises. Few seconds later a familiar voice came on the line.

“Basu, are your people watching what the Pakistani media is spewing to their citizens?” Ravoof asked calmly.
“We are,” Basu noted and then let out a deep breath. “It’s not good. They are whipping up a lot of rabid jihadis across the streets of Pakistan with this stuff. The demand for the deployment of nuclear warheads against us is growing on the streets there.”

“Well, can’t you shut them down?” Ravoof asked incredulously.
“Not with express orders to do so, no…” Basu’s voice trailed off and got replaced with background chatter.
“You there?” Ravoof asked impatiently after a couple seconds.

“Yes. I am here. Look, I got things to do over here, so unless you have something specific for me in mind…”

“Look,” Ravoof asked, rubbing his forehead above the phone as he put his other arm on the desk., “assume for a second that we get you the authorization to shut these channels down, can you do it?”
“Maybe,” Basu replied after consideration. “But these guys are using commercial satellites and other towers too numerous or risky to take down. But take down the power and we take down everything. Comms, electricity, television and the internet.”

Dear god! Ravoof thought. That would shut down their entire country!

“Can’t we do anything short of shutting their entire country down?”
“Not really,” Basu stated as matter of fact. “Maybe you should talk to the army brass and see if they have any ideas. I sure as hell don’t! What the hell is your hesitation anyway? The Pakistanis are already used to having only few hours of electricity a day. Shut them down completely or not is not really sparing them much! The power grid takedown is an economic targeting which has a direct relevance militarily. I suggest you consider it.”

“I will.” Ravoof nodded and made a mental note to do that via the Prime Minister and the army brass as soon as he was done here. “Now, what about this Shakreil fellow? How’s he going to respond?”
“Everything,” Basu replied, “that we have been able to gather about the strike on Mumbai points to the complicity of that son of a bitch. He’s involved. He knew. In what capacity? We have no idea. But his hands have felt the feel of nuclear warheads deployed against the infidels. He will not hesitate to use them again to stop us.”

“So why wait? Why haven’t they used them yet?” Ravoof asked.

“No idea. Maybe they thought they could keep us in check without resorting to nuclear weapons, considering our weakened state after the China war. Maybe they are struggling to maintain command and control. But now that these deep strikes by the army are progressing into Pakistani soil on all fronts, the timer has started.”
“What the hell do you mean by that?” Ravoof asked as a chill went down his spine.

“It means,” Basu said with patience, “get your people out of New Delhi. Now!”

SOUTHWEST OF LAHORE
DAY 1 + 1230 HRS

“Sparrow-two-two, this is Pathfinder. Target is lit. You have the ball.”

Pathanya turned to see Vik talking on the radio even as the operated the laser designator pod. The sounds of jets above was now nothing more than background noise over Lahore. Along with the brutal artillery detonations to the east and the tank fire now easily heard from the city, the place was a blistering cacophony of military noises. Pathanya rubbed his eyes with his gloved hand to remove the sweat and then watched as the dozens of columns of smoke rose from what had been the Allama Iqbal International Airport in Lahore. Now it was nothing more than smoldering wreckage after the Indian air and missile strikes had levelled it. Pathanya could see the black and brown pillars of smoke on the horizon rising and dissipating into the blue skies above.

But that was not Pathfinder team’s concern. The battle for Lahore was in full swing. The Indian army units east of here were pushing gradually towards the city limits. Although he couldn’t see any of that action from where he was, Pathanya and his men could swear that they could see the battle between armored vehicles raging on the horizon. Even so, he was out to the southwest of the city and west of the important N5 highway that ran to Lahore from the south. The Jhok forestry reserve was an obvious vantage point for him and his team. It was west of what the Pakistanis were focused on, it had large vegetation and relatively less urbanization. All of which meant lesser chances of discovery. Additionally, it allowed Pathfinder to stay in sight of the N5 and also be in a vantage point to whack any high value targets that came this way when the Indian army started to flush out the enemy.

“Pathfinder, this is Sparrow-two-two,” the radio crackled in his ears. “I have the marker to my five. Standby…”

Pathanya brought up his binoculars and focused on the N5 to his east. The highway was a mass of clogged cars heading southwest, away from the city, as civilians were leaving in droves before Lahore became a battlefield. But the other side of the road was cleared and was a highway filled with incoming convoys of military vehicles. Trucks, jeeps, tanks and artillery. The Pakistani army was throwing everything at the Indian army in this sector. Striking any of these targets would kill civilians in their hundreds on the other side of the highway. But that couldn’t be helped. There was a war on. And right now his sights were fixed on the convoy of twelve T-80s painted in desert camouflage that were rolling up towards the city ahead of a dozen other trucks and other vehicles.

“Sparrow-two-two has one away…and two away. Steady on the marker. Sparrow-two-three has the ball.”

Pathanya tightened his grip on the binoculars. He had seen this show before. He knew how it ended. Captain Kamidalla shifted in his concealed position within the trees ten meters away and looked up through the scattered shadows of the leaves. Of course there was nothing to see visually…

Three seconds he caught the faint glimmer of the fins of a laser guided bomb as it slammed into the lead T-80 tank on the road. The explosion was catastrophic and the T-80 was shredded underneath an inverted cone of flames and smoke. Chunks of concrete off the road flew off in all directions along with inverted civilian cars by their dozens on the other side as the shockwave expanded out. The second bomb slammed into the fourth T-80 from the lead and similarly disappeared inside another massive detonation.

The twin shockwaves dissipated as it expanded out. Even so, it whipped past the Pathfinder team positions and the trees ruffled and shook gently. The smell of burning metal and petroleum came with it. Vikram spat out the dirt that made it into his mouth.

“Goddamn it!” He said disgustedly and spat out some more to clear the taste in his mouth.

Pathanya ignored the team members and focused on the mission and keyed his comms: “Sparrow-two-two, this is Pathfinder. Good drop. Extensive damage to convoy. Seven T-80s destroyed or disabled. Multiple secondaries. Additional ancillary damage to convoy and extensive collateral damage. Pleasure doing business with you!”

The radio crackled: “Likewise, Pathfinder. Have a nice day. Sparrow-two-two is bugging out.” The comms were replaced with static.

Pathanya continued to look through his binoculars and surveyed the damage. It was extensive. He could see the bright yellow-orange flames furiously churning their way through what was left of the first six T-80s in the convoy. The seventh one was intact but spewing light smoke. He could see other Pakistani soldiers from the trucks behind rushing up to get survivors out of the turret. Civilians were moving about in chaos from the site of dozens of burning and blackened cars. Bodies and body parts were strewn all over the place.

“Dear god!” Kamidalla said reflexively.
“Didn’t you say to me at Vairengte that you wanted combat?” Pathanya said as he slowly crawled back from his position into the small depression behind them and towed away his binoculars. “Well, here’s your fu@king combat!”

Kamidalla didn’t respond. Neither did Vikram, who was quietly stowing away the laser designator between himself and another soldier. Kamidalla finally swallowed. Pathanya noted it.

“You have something to add, Captain?” He asked brutally.
“Have our rules of engagement changed? We just ended up killing a lot of civilians out there.” Kamidalla asked hesitantly.

Pathanya hefted his rifle closer to this chest before facing the Captain:
“The enemy didn’t ask the citizens of Mumbai what they wanted. They just nuked them. So spare me your sensibilities about the enemy’s civilians. I find that I just don’t give a damn.”

vivek_ahuja wrote:Pathanya hefted his rifle closer to this chest before facing the Captain:
“The enemy didn’t ask the citizens of Mumbai what they wanted. They just nuked them. So spare me your sensibilities about the enemy’s civilians. I find that I just don’t give a damn.”

That's a damn good answer, that dialogue is a keeper. Kudos Vivekji.

sattili wrote:

vivek_ahuja wrote:Pathanya hefted his rifle closer to this chest before facing the Captain:
“The enemy didn’t ask the citizens of Mumbai what they wanted. They just nuked them. So spare me your sensibilities about the enemy’s civilians. I find that I just don’t give a damn.”

That's a damn good answer, that dialogue is a keeper. Kudos Vivekji.

Would have to take a different view on that.

The question was a valid one: Its about rules-of-engagement.
The rules-of-engagement say that the nuclear device must be stopped at all costs. Sounds about right.
The rules-of-engagement say that its ok to wipe out a village to kill any spies. That's questionable IMO.

And the answer looks like its from some-one on the verge of a mental breakdown (in the middle of combat).
Now thats scary.

--Ashish.

I agree with Vivek on this one. When the enemy has thrown the rules out of the window, if you still hold on to your rules, you will be destroyed. Therefore, in a war, all rules get thrown out, specifically when the enemy has already done that. Soldiers that fight on the front line, who have had families in Mumbai who got wiped out, would definitely want to destroy pakistan. Not consider the rules of the engagement.

All is fair in love and war.

Well. The rules of engagement are meant to destroy Pakistan more effectively.
I am not talking about humanitarian reasons here.
I am talking about rules to achieve the task more successfully, with less effort and less risk to our own soldiers.

For eg: what if you bombing the highway, makes civilians think that its safer to hide within the city.
Then, when you enter the city, you have a f**k**g nightmare on your hands.

A soldier on ground may not have the right information to make more strategic decisions.
Thats why rules-of-engagement exist.

--Ashish.

These are just hypothesis and semantics. Highways are not the only way to get in or out. Outside of cities are not always the safest.
In this chapter, the soldiers had a mission to destroy Paki tanks before they could kill more Indians. They did what was more logical to the commanders. Pathfinders were lasing targets for Air Force. They were not acting as an independent team either. The directions were coming from their commanders who had access to bigger picture. How long could they wait to find a spot on convoy's route free of civilians ? Rules of engagements don't ask for taking unnecessary risks.

Allies firebombed numerous German and Japanese cities to ashes during World War 2 to meet their strategic objectives. I don't condone attacking civilians, but war is an ugly thing.

^^^
Fair point. Agreed.
From the story-line, I got the impression that rules-of-engagement *appeared* to have changed.

--Ashish

Rules of Engagement in such a scenario would be to target Enemy Military Assets with minimum loss to civilian Life. (not ZERO civilian life).

So what constitutes change of ROW

The Rules of Engagement would change if Civilians are also targeted as well?

OR

Military assets are targeted with NO regard to Civilian Life? - This one is highly subjective.

What if in the given Senario and Proximity of Mil Assets to Civilian Population the above WAS the minimum loss? It was a precision strike after all. The Onus to keep Civilian's out of harms way will also ultimately lie with the Pakistani Military.
(Argument that Israel ofcourse has used repeatedly in the past)

By moving forward armoured columns close to civilian populations with the intent to use it in action against attacking forces, the TSP military risked civilian lives or was using civilians as cover. Indian forces or attacking forces are at a liberty to target any military component which could help in the enemies war making effort.

The areas under consideration are heavily populated and sanitized military targets are rare if any. Loss of Civilian life even in precision attacks will happen in the context of Indian Subcontinent. So, if one is thinking of zero Civilian casualties or aborting missions if Civilians are around it will be impossible to attack or wage war with such limitations.

Deliberate and exclusive targeting of Civilian Population will be to terrorize the population. These should and will be treated as beyond the Rules of Engagement. Expect TSP to try this even in a real war. IMO, it will be their principal strategy.

@Misraji - please watch a documentary "Dirty Wars" produced by a war journalist on how ugly the war on terror campaign has become. Rules of engagement didn't exist for US JSOC - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2532528/

At least this scenario above didn't go to that brazen extreme as putting a cruise missile on civilian population in a country where there is no declared war and didn't care to even explain its rationale.

Vivek Saar waiting waiting waiting .....

Ahuja saab, Can you write a bunch of posts and then post them once a day or two keeping a buffer of 7-8 posts ?

The way things are going right now, I have to read a few old posts just to refresh what's going on whenever a new one is published.

Ahujaji helping us by doing the posts and and we can not ask more than what he is already doing gurus. I am sure he has some other personal works etc to do. He was also not well for a long time and by the Gods grace now doing well.

While I do wish he can be more active, I feel that we need to let him do the posts at his own pace.

sattili wrote:@Misraji - please watch a documentary "Dirty Wars" produced by a war journalist on how ugly the war on terror campaign has become. Rules of engagement didn't exist for US JSOC - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2532528/

Will do. Thanks.

--Ashish

Why do we care sirji? Only a dead peaceful is good peaceful as for as Indics are concerned. World is going back to some 1300 years to the peaceful expansion. Khan is the new kid in the block and doing basically Mangol job ( a half job at that). Whether this will end up khans being peaceful or not is the only question. This time both crusaders and jigadis are fighting among themselves for the good of whole world. Let them kill each other. We need to worry about us only for the time being.

Now this thread can also have Nirbhay taking party.

sattili wrote:
@Misraji - please watch a documentary "Dirty Wars" produced by a war journalist on how ugly the war on terror campaign has become. Rules of engagement didn't exist for US JSOC - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2532528/

Will do. Thanks.

IN my opinion the analogy is not correct for the following reasons:


1\Based on the documentary you must also know what JSOC has become now. Completely out of control and burnt out and hitting out at anything the see. I believe the quote was that the Americans had created a very effective hammer that was constantly looking for a Nail.

2\ Scenario here is for a short Conventional War where as the the JSOC analogy is a continuous state of the world seemingly playing out into eternity

3\ JSOC works outside of Official Channels and doesnt show up on TV or in the Press and the Party has official deniability.
(cant except Tank Crews to work with the the same ROE laxation as SOF units)

4\ Relaxing ROE (collatoral damage) has a side effect on line troops (PTSD, etc) - A human being is a human being and a sociopath is a minority. Statistically SOF units have a far lower incidence of PTSD than regular troops.

Vivek Sir - Diwali pai kuch to Phatakey aur Mithai banti hai... few post please

I am starting a new storyline here which may contain loaded political matters at a later stage. Since I have negligible knowledge in Military matters please try to be kind with your remarks.

Here we do:



ABOUT TWO AND HALF YEARS BEFORE PRESNET
The mobile rang. Landline call from Mumbai? Chandra immediately could not remember any Mumbaikar knowing his personal mobile number... Warily Chandra took the call wondering if it is some telemarketing boy/girl. Chandra was wrong, just like he was wrong about many other more important things in his life.
A deep voice said “Hello Chandra”. He could immediately place the voice. It has lost its deepness due to old age. Chandra was surprised to hear it.
“Yes. General” Chandra said.
“Come to Mumbai and meet me” The line was dead before Chandra could respond.
Chandra’s mobile got a sms saying “Welcome to Kerala” The Kerala state starts on the other side of the mountain on which Chandra was standing. There are big windmills in Kerala side visible even from miles. Chandra looked at the green hills and slowly turned back to down the hill and to the Temple complex of Talakaveri, the birth place of Kaveri wherein Maharishi Agasya created the river and started back the journey to Bangalore and to Mumbai.
Slowly he began to realize the call may not be ordinary one. Why would a long retired Head of Indian Military Intelligence would him and ask meet him with personally without giving any reasons.
The General is the least social person one can meet even in the days Chandra knew him. . In any event he does not have any work and not exactly need of doing any job. Something serious must afoot, but what it could be, He wondered. Nothing remote came to his mind and finally he gave up and started on concentrating on driving. It took two days of journey for Chandra to Mumbai and ring the bell at the General’s flat.
The General personally opened the door. The General really retired and has no work to do, Chandra thought, but kept quite. The General is not someone with whom you can close and make such small talk.
“Come in” the General said and went inside. Chandra sat in the chair he pointed to him.
“Meet Mr. Anil Deodhar”, the General said introducing the third person sitting in the hall.
“He is my walking mate these days”. He said. “Let us go for out otherwise it will be traffic, pollution, sound and all that after half an hour”.
He started to take the newspapers on the table and started to walk outside the flat saying “come me”. No small talk as usual, Chandra thought.
But why he called me here Chandra wondered. Surely not to accompany him on his morning walk. For that he already has one older friend and I am hardly his age or can be called his friend. In fact he was surprised that the General has any friends.
The General’s walk was brisk and all of them walked into Oval Ground nearby. The General started walking around it. God only knows how many rounds I need to walk now Chandra thought before the General to speak. Fortunately for him after few minutes of walking, the General said “ Anil used to work for the Secretary (R) before his retirement” and paused and continue to walk as if that alone answers Chandra’s unasked questions. Now Chabdra need to walk more Chandra thought trying to catch up with the brisk walking of both old men.
“I need you to do something very important for all of us”
All of us??? Chandra thought.
“You will receive a cover containing a brief in your mother language which Anil knows. Read and destroy it. Once you read it you will know how serious the matter is. I know you got no one to discuss this matter or use any computer etc which can be hacked all that rubbish. Do not go on line with any specific data mining also. In your case I think it may not be needed.
Please go through it, destroy the letter. Go back to Bangalore immediately and prepare a detailed plan on solutions needed. This job is a full time one need serious commitment from you. You naturally get nothing for doing it. I am sure you can manage without money.
It will be a risky one so starting improving your physical stamina You may need it in future. After today please do not contact Anil, except something happens to me.”
The General stopped and turned with panting Chandra and said
“Now go”.
With that the General and his friend walked straight ahead. Chandra waited for some time and slowly started across the park to the entrance. He knows where I stay. Chandra thought. Otherwise he would have asked me. Chandra did not bothered to think how the General knows it, of course I stayed in the Hotel where I normally stay and General knows it.
Chandra wondered about the report he will read in few minutes and speculated. The General knew his father, though the nature of their relationship he does not know. The General asked him do few odd jobs while he was in his early twenties and encouraged him to write Civil Services which Chandra failed miserably. After the General’s retirement and death of Chandra’s father four years back there was intermediate contact between them with Chandra enquiring about the health of General from time to time. General telephoned Chandra after his family was killed and offered his condolences etc. But that was over a year back.
At the reception of his hotel the receptionist handed over Chandra a brown cover with his name on it. Chandra opened it in his room and started reading the neatly handwritten pages. It took him some time to read it all. But after the first few sentences he started feeling sick and it took all his meagre courage and will to finish it without stop and he rushed to wash room and vomited. It took him some time to comprehend report and control his emotions to some measure. His sickness and fear continued though. Slowly he walked to the bed and sat on it. After getting his wits he telephoned his travel agent to book his ticket back to Bangalore and after making travel arrangements drank some water and closed his eyes. Even with his closed eye he could see the letters on the report which is short and to the point. Obviously the writer has no time or confident of covering all important details in short report.
The brief in the form of a letter addressed to Chandra by Anil Deodhar reads
Dear Chandra,
A meeting was conducted about two months back wherein the Politburo of the Communist party of China has discussed in detail a wide ranging strategic effort including a simultaneous armed attack on India by China and Pakistan. It will not be limited to the border war like in 1962 but will be aimed at complete destruction of India as a nation state and thereby prevent any Indian or other strategic challenge to China. Most surprisingly no discussion was held in the meeting on possible US or Nato reaction to such war. When one of the participants tried the President of China said “We need not worry about that”. This is a clear indication that
1. either the Chinese think US is of no consequence which is quite surprising, or
2. China knows or was assured that any possible US involvement can be prevented or managed by it or
3. There is a most unpleasant possibility of US or the establishment in US supports such a Chinese war on India.
Other Nato powers are of no consequence anyway.
I am told by our friend that you regularly follow the national security related matters and have serious interest in military history and other items and is extremely intelligent. Most importantly you can be trusted partly our Mutual friend knows you from your childhood and knows you political and other views. Further I am sorry to write that he felt that loss of your wife and son in terror attack makes it near impossible to for you to betray your nation. I am using the word nation and not the Indian State. Our friend said you were very particular about the distinction. It may sound brutal that you are selected to join few of us who are now doing what we can to meet this serious threat on our nation due to your loss and personal tragedy. Needless to say the consequences of a failure of to stop this Chinese attack will be catastrophic and we as a nation and civilization will seize to exist.
As you may be aware that after the Pokharan II various nations realised the limitations of technical intelligence in case of India. Since then we are seriously penetrated various sectors critical to our national security. It is near impossible to believe anyone now. Anyone and everyone seem to be compromised in our highly corrupt polity. We are also hard pressed for resources and men as we cannot raise money etc as we are out of the game for a long time.
It is unlikely we are being watched but one can never be sure of these things. So please be careful. Even now your room is being watched by one of our men who ensured only you get this letter. Any effort to stop this Chinese plan if not restricted or hidden properly will result in possible elimination all of us. While I do not care or fear to due for a good cause after living full life, failure is not an option available to us when it will result in another 1000 year genocide of our people and possible extinction of Sanathana Dharma in our nation and I do not wish any patriotic person joining us should never be put to personal risk due to negligence. Hence security is paramount. Please destroy this letter immediately after reading.
While it may be near impossible to stop the war, the availability of more than two years of time will give us a chance even a very tiny one to stop the destruction of our nation. If the war starts now we cannot do anything. Naturally I am not informing you how we got hold of this plan. We do not know all the specific details but can confirm that the information is authentic.
Please put your full efforts and give your prospective on the matter and call our friend as soon as you are ready.
The letter went on to write a brief description of the Chinese plans and ended. Chandra destroyed that letter and waited for his cab to Airport.
The next morning Chandra went to nearby book shop and purchased some writing pads and started to write the details of the Chinese plan on the pad. As the General described Chandra got a very good memory and after completing the reproduction of his report he checked it to find if he missed out anything. He was sure that the General and his other colleagues will check his report for any omissions etc and not discounted the possibility of the General himself will recollect all the details and will not miss anything.