Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 26 Nov 2015 00:27

the one time the target missile failed to take off or crashed soon after launch, it was counted as a test failure probably by the media, this binary counting may continue until deployment happens at which time benching marking is done against say Patriot or Thaad kind of systems, deriding the local program using the same number. So, validating target missile modifications by itself is good.

The other reason is they might move to testing over sea completely unless they decide to use retiring Agnis

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Nov 2015 01:19

perhaps that tells AAD is not ready for exo-atmospheric BMD targets

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 26 Nov 2015 12:08

Yawn... another Prithvi test fired..

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 26 Nov 2015 13:10

vasu raya wrote:the one time the target missile failed to take off or crashed soon after launch, it was counted as a test failure probably by the media, this binary counting may continue until deployment happens at which time benching marking is done against say Patriot or Thaad kind of systems, deriding the local program using the same number. So, validating target missile modifications by itself is good.

The other reason is they might move to testing over sea completely unless they decide to use retiring Agnis

http://idrw.org/dhanush-a-disguise-for-asbm-technology/

Is that you janaab?

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 26 Nov 2015 13:31

I consider all Prithvi tests from now as a lungi that cleverly conceals a top secret missile test. Very soon we will hear how K-4 has been tested 15 times already..

A halal lungi check is needed to reveal the truth..

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 26 Nov 2015 15:13

Prithvi II Missile successfully test fired in Odisha

The Strategic Forces Command of India successfully test-fired its indigenously developed Surface to Surface nuclear capable Prithvi-II Short Range Ballistic missile (SRBM) on November 26, 2015 in Odisha. The Prithvi II Missile can strike targets up to the range of 350 kms. The trial was conducted as part of a user trial by the Indian armed forces under the Strategic Forces Command (SFC). The missile test was carried out from a mobile launcher from launch complex-3 of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur, Odisha. The surface-to-surface Prithvi-II missile is capable of carrying 500 kg to 1,000 kg of warheads including Nuclear war heads and has a thrust enabled by liquid propulsion twin engines. It uses advanced inertial guidance system with manoeuvring trajectory to hit its target.

The missile was randomly chosen from the production stock and the entire launch activities were carried out by the specially formed SFC (Strategic Forces Command) and was also monitored by the scientists of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) as part of training exercise.The missile trajectory was tracked by DRDO radars, electro-optical tracking systems and telemetry stations located along the coast of Odisha.

The downrange teams on board a ship deployed near the designated impact point in the Bay of Bengal monitored the terminal events and splashdown. The Prithvi Missile was Inducted into India’s armed forces in 2003, Prithvi II was the first missile to be developed by DRDO under India’s prestigious IGMDP (Integrated Guided Missile Development Program) Such training launches clearly indicate India’s operational readiness to meet any eventuality and also establishes the reliability of this deterrent component of the country’s strategic arsenal. The last user trial of Prithvi-II was successfully conducted on February 19, 2015 from the same test range in Odisha.

Prithvi

The Government of India launched the Integrated Guided Missile Development Program in 1983 which was run by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The DRDO developed three variants of the Prithvi missile, producing the Prithvi I missile in 1988 developed mainly for the Indian Army as the Prime user in battlefield. The Prithi II missile was produced in 1996 and was developed mainly for the Indian Air Force as the Prime user. Prithvi III was produced in 2004 developed mainly for the Indian Navy as Prime User.

Strategic Forces Command

The Strategic Forces Command (SFC) was established on November 4, 2003 by the Government of India and is part of the Nuclear Command Authority (NCA) of India. The SFC is responsible for the management and administration of tactical and strategic nuclear weapons of India. The command has elements of all three defence services of India namely Indian Army, Indian Air Force and the Indian Navy, and a high ranking officer is selected from among one of the three services as the commander in chief.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 26 Nov 2015 17:02

Missile ejection test from Arihant successful. Dummy B4 was used.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 27 Nov 2015 00:52

Ranjan saab, not a blogger by any means more a rambler

ASBM would be a good development, with the Prithvi donning the role of a target in the BMD scenario, they get to simulate many trajectories, some with high terminal velocities, and they keeping the precision is important as velocities go up.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 27 Nov 2015 12:32

Late Diwali fireworks... Agni-1 test fired today...

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 27 Nov 2015 13:16

Possibly K-4

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 27 Nov 2015 17:43

intense lungi dance time - LRSAM testfired

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/11/ ... um=twitter

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 27 Nov 2015 18:45

^^ Video of an old test probably, what we want to see is a test fire from our own heavyweight bruiser, the INS Kolkata

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 27 Nov 2015 18:52

This is the video of today's Israeli Barak-8 test.

vina · Post by **vina** » 27 Nov 2015 19:47

maxratul wrote:intense lungi dance time - LRSAM testfired

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/11/ ... um=twitter

Brilliant. Direct hit on a small manoeuvring drone target.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 27 Nov 2015 19:58

Agni-I ballistic missile test fired successfully off Odisha coast.

Agni-I nuclear capable ballistic missile user trail was conducted from the launch pad 4 off test range Dr Abdul Kalam Island in Odisha today.

The successful trial of the medium range ballistic missile Agni-I was conducted at 10.02 am today, the user trail of the missile was carried out by the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) of Indian Army.

The surface-to-surface missile can destroy targets nearly 700 km away. The missile is only 15 meters and powered by solid and liquid propellants at a speed of 2.5 km per seconds.

The missile, weighs around 12 tonnes and can carry both conventional and nuclear payload of about 1000 kg. It was first launched on January 25, 2002, and can be fired from road and rail mobile launchers. Senior officials of the Army and Tessy Thomas, Director of Agni Project of Defence Ministry, and senior scientists were present at the island during the user trial.

The DRDO had launched the Agni project in 1983 as Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme in India.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Nov 2015 06:06

All set for long-range missile launch from ship - S. Anandan, The Hindu

Close on the heels of the successful firing of a long-range surface-to-air-missile (LR-SAM), often referred to as Barak-8, from an Israel naval platform on Thursday, the missile jointly developed by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) will now be test-fired from India’s new class of stealth destroyers under P15-A, INS Kolkata and INS Kochi.

Technicians from the DRDO, the IAI and BDL (Bharat Dynamics Limited which is producing the advanced missile) are configuring the sensors, especially the MFSTAR (multifunction surveillance and threat alert radar) active phased array radar, and ancillary systems on board INS Kolkata to fire the missile from the ship in December.

This will be followed by another flight of the missile from INS Kochi some time in March-April next year, said sources.

DRDL director and programme director of LRSAM, K. Jayaraman told The Hindu that the vertically-launched missile met all parameters and successfully decimated its target, an oncoming pilotless target aircraft, during its test-flight on Wednesday. “Ship-borne sensors and support equipment were used to steer the flight and acquire target, which has proven that all safety standards have been met,” he said.

‘DRDO playeda key role’

The DRDO played a key role in the joint programme by designing and developing dual pulse propulsion for the vertically-launched missile’s solid propulsion system which enhanced its range nearly 1.5 times besides expanding its flight envelope and target engagement capability, said Mr. Jayaraman.

The project is headed by Patrick D’ Silva.

Navy keen to take delivery

Naval sources said the MFSTAR and related components aboard the 7,500 tonne Kolkata-class ships were being calibrated right now and that Indian Navy was keen to take delivery of the missile from BDL.

Meanwhile, plans were afoot to take the programme forward with the development of an extended range surface-to-air missile (ERSAM) which would greatly enhance its range form the present 70 km, they indicated.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 29 Nov 2015 19:17

maxratul wrote:intense lungi dance time - LRSAM testfired

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/11/ ... um=twitter

Was that a kinetic HIT to KILL shot ?

‘DRDO playeda key role’

The DRDO played a key role in the joint programme by designing and developing dual pulse propulsion for the vertically-launched missile’s solid propulsion system which enhanced its range nearly 1.5 times besides expanding its flight envelope and target engagement capability, said Mr. Jayaraman.

The project is headed by Patrick D’ Silva.

Navy keen to take delivery

Naval sources said the MFSTAR and related components aboard the 7,500 tonne Kolkata-class ships were being calibrated right now and that Indian Navy was keen to take delivery of the missile from BDL.

Meanwhile, plans were afoot to take the programme forward with the development of an extended range surface-to-air missile (ERSAM) which would greatly enhance its range form the present 70 km, they indicated.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/watch-isra ... se-system/

The system is intended to be mounted either on naval vessels or on the ground, in a battery formation. It can identify and destroy airborne threats like UAVs, jets, missiles and rockets — including projectiles launched simultaneously.

Though the senior officer said he could not reveal the maximum range of the Barak 8 system, an executive vice president of Israel Aerospace Industries, which helped develop the defense system, revealed to Jane’s Defense News earlier this summer that some of the missiles being used can shoot down targets at a range of 150 kilometers (93 miles).

The system is also intended to defend the coastline and reportedly can tackle missiles larger than those within the capabilities of the Iron Dome system.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 29 Nov 2015 20:18

LRSAM has practically no major Indian Input. In value terms Indian input would be less than 5%. It will also kill off Akash.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 29 Nov 2015 20:19

Gyan wrote:LRSAM has practically no major Indian Input. In value terms Indian input would be less than 5%. It will also kill off Akash.

Hmmm, rather sweeping statement! Care to back it up with some references?

John · Post by **John** » 29 Nov 2015 22:54

Gyan wrote:LRSAM has practically no major Indian Input. In value terms Indian input would be less than 5%. It will also kill off Akash.

There is no naval variant of Akash and as for the army/af LRSAM is more of threat to Ashwin and any future S300 procurement than Akash. It will provide long range air defense which we are lacking.

IMO i think it will be while before they are procured for land based air defense its expensive missile like aster 30 or patroit where as Akash cost less than million a piece. Akash range in other hand overlaps with SRSAM.

raghava · Post by **raghava** » 30 Nov 2015 16:45

Recently, a senior scientist involved in the "indiagenization" of the "two-river mijjile" was pondering long and hard over a technical problem. To clear his head, he went to a chaiwalla and ordered some strong chai. As the said vaigyanik was thinking out aloud, the chaiwalla listened. This chaiwalla is my friend's brother-in-law's uncle's neighbour and so I came to know that according to the burn rate characteristics of the "sriram jet" fuel, the "makjimum" range is around 450 km - "phiphty percent moar"

Lungi Dance ???

raghava · Post by **raghava** » 30 Nov 2015 16:47

There are a few more tidbits I can post if the admins permit.

kit · Post by **kit** » 30 Nov 2015 16:59

raghava wrote:Recently, a senior scientist involved in the "indiagenization" of the "two-river mijjile" was pondering long and hard over a technical problem. To clear his head, he went to a chaiwalla and ordered some strong chai. As the said vaigyanik was thinking out aloud, the chaiwalla listened. This chaiwalla is my friend's brother-in-law's uncle's neighbour and so I came to know that according to the burn rate characteristics of the "sriram jet" fuel, the "makjimum" range is around 450 km - "phiphty percent moar"

Lungi Dance ???

well ,,at those ranges it goes over the horizon ..how does it get the target data from the ELTA radar ? ..as far as i know India has not yet got the kind of targeting capability from multiple sources like khan !

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 30 Nov 2015 17:13

kit wrote:
raghava wrote:Recently, a senior scientist involved in the "indiagenization" of the "two-river mijjile" was pondering long and hard over a technical problem. To clear his head, he went to a chaiwalla and ordered some strong chai. As the said vaigyanik was thinking out aloud, the chaiwalla listened. This chaiwalla is my friend's brother-in-law's uncle's neighbour and so I came to know that according to the burn rate characteristics of the "sriram jet" fuel, the "makjimum" range is around 450 km - "phiphty percent moar"

Lungi Dance ???
well ,,at those ranges it goes over the horizon ..how does it get the target data from the ELTA radar ? ..as far as i know India has not yet got the kind of targeting capability from multiple sources like khan !

just a wild guess: for ashm version it can use rukmini(gsat7) and for land attack version maybe the gagan/irnss/glonass. since india is not likely to fight war beyond ior both above systems are sufficient.

durairaaj · Post by **durairaaj** » 30 Nov 2015 17:26

U guys are confusing raghava's post.
2 river missile is Brahmos, which does not require ELTA or any other radar for that matter.It just needs coordinates of the target. 450 km range violates the MTCR regulation hence kept as open secret. Could be drawn out during war.

ELTA or any other RADAR is needed for *(S/M/L)*RSAM.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 30 Nov 2015 17:32

Not sure if we should post it as such. Its max range is a common speculation and should remain so until we grant porkies their wish.

I will request to remove this info as its not open source.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 30 Nov 2015 18:10

Dr Saraswat himself said that the max range was over 600 km when flown at 18 km altitude. Nothing new in that.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Nov 2015 18:15

Indo-Israeli Barak-8 missile may win orders worth billions - Economic Times

India and Israel are likely to win orders worth billions of dollars following the successful test last week of the jointly developed multi-purpose Barak-8 missile system, a media report said.

"In addition to India and Israel, which are procuring it, other armies around the world have signed with IAI ( Israel Aerospace Industries) to procure the advanced system. Assembly line production of the missiles and their accompanying systems has already begun", IAI Programme Director for Air & Missile Defence Systems Boaz Levy told Globes business daily.

"The recent trial has given the system a substantial boost among countries that are still considering whether to procure it, and we believe that in the coming years, we will increase the number of signed contracts for its procurement. This is the spearhead of the defence systems, and a key growth engine for us," Levy said.

Representatives of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), an equal partner in the joint venture right from the outset, also participated in the recent trial with the next test of the system likely to happen onboard Indian naval vessel INS Kolkata in December this year, defence officials here told PTI.

Designed to defend against a variety of short-to-long -range airborne threats, including fixed-wing aircraft, helicopters, drones and projectiles, Barak-8 incorporates a state-of-the-art phased array multi-mission radar, two-way data link, and a flexible command and control system, enabling users to simultaneously engage multiple targets day and night and in all weather conditions.

The missile system is being jointly developed by IAI, DRDO, Israel's Administration for the Development of Weapons and Technological Infrastructure, Elta Systems, Rafael and other companies.

Sources involved in the development of the missile system told the business daily they believe that the Israeli Navy will be able to declare it operational within a few months.

A Barak-8 battery, including the Adir radar system made by IAI subsidiary Elta Systems, a command and control system, and the missile launchers, is already installed on the deck of Israeli Navy ship Lahav, from which the new interceptor was fired last week as part of a complete trial of the system.

"All of the instruments related to the weapons system had been tested in the recent trial at the height of which an interceptor missile had been fired from the Lahav's deck," Levy was quoted as saying.

"The missile was aimed at a UAV simulating an enemy target. The system's radar spotted the threat, monitored it in flight, and the data were transferred from it to the Barak-8 command and control centre, which launched the interceptor missile at the UAV.

"Using its homing-in device, the missile aimed itself at the target, made an accurate hit, and destroyed it completely. The missile blew it into fragments. The Barak 8 system, including all of its components, successfully met all the objectives set for it," Levy said.

The trial focused on the system's capability in its naval application and the interceptor missile launched at the target was simulating a deep-sea target.

IAI is also testing land-based applications of the system.

The radar and command and control systems stationed on land are said to have also successfully identified and monitored the target, and calculated its trajectory, but did not launch an interceptor missile at it.

The Barak 8's interceptor range is said to be 70 kilometres, making it capable of handling several threats posed against Israel's defence, including missiles like the Yakhont which the Israeli army believes is a part of Lebanese Shia militant group Hezbollah's arsenal and can be used to hit Israel's ports, navy ships, merchant vessels, and Mediterranean natural gas facilities.

Professional sources told the Globes that Barak-8 is also capable of providing a solution for surface-to-surface missiles and accurate rockets possessed by Hezbollah that threatens infrastructure facilities in Israel and essential Israel Defence Forces (IDF) bases all over the country.

Barak-8, an upgraded version of the missile Barak system already being used by India and Israel, is designed to defend naval vessels against incoming missiles, planes and drones.

India's Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) will be assigned the task of producing the missiles with 32 initial ones to be fitted on INS Kolkata.

Israel made MF-STAR radar system, which is capable of simultaneously tracking hundreds of airborne targets to a range of more than 250 kilometres, adds value to the marketing potential of the new system.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Nov 2015 18:16

OK. Suppose Brahmos violates MTCR. What the frick is anyone going to do about it. There is nothing to fear or hide. I think it is hilrious that Brahmos flies to 297 km and then simply dives into the sea and commits soosai.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Nov 2015 18:20

In October, 2012, it was announced by DRDO that Brahmos has been integrated with the satellite navigation system used in the Russian strategic missiles, Kh-101 & Kh-555. It was also announced that this would extend the range of the missile to 500 Kms and also make it a strategic missile capable of carrying a nuclear warhead. The new guidance technology, which uses Glonass has been added to the BrahMos’ Doppler-inertial guidance system to increase its range and precision.

vina · Post by **vina** » 30 Nov 2015 18:48

India and Israel are likely to win orders worth billions of dollars following the successful test last week of the jointly developed multi-purpose Barak-8 missile system, a media report said.

"In addition to India and Israel, which are procuring it, other armies around the world have signed with IAI ( Israel Aerospace Industries) to procure the advanced system. Assembly line production of the missiles and their accompanying systems has already begun", IAI Programme Director for Air & Missile Defence Systems Boaz Levy told Globes business daily

Yes. This is the way to go. Partner with interested parties to bring best capabilities to the table from all sides, increase potential market size for everyone (this LRSAM business is shaping out to be a $10b opporunity, if the air defense requirements of India and Isreal alone are considered, and some potential of $2b more if there are 3rd party sales). These kind of numbers will make all including global biggies like LM and Raytheon etc, give an arm and a leg for it.

Expect more JV proposals , especially from US and others for new systems where there is an overlap .

This LRSAM/.Barak-8 is clearly a top drawer system, easily among the best in the world there is in it's class. DRDO seems to have done a brilliant job with the dual pulse propulsion by all accounts and the Isrealis have done a great job with the guidance , air frame and of course the multi fuction AESA radar.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 30 Nov 2015 19:21

For all those who are into MTCR limitation angle, key take is

Recently, a senior scientist involved in the "indiagenization" of the "two-river mijjile"

"indiagenization" : for long we are hearing this..ie form end to end full "indiagenization".

Q: with "indiagenization" is MTCR valid ?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 30 Nov 2015 19:38

vina wrote:
India and Israel are likely to win orders worth billions of dollars following the successful test last week of the jointly developed multi-purpose Barak-8 missile system, a media report said.

"In addition to India and Israel, which are procuring it, other armies around the world have signed with IAI ( Israel Aerospace Industries) to procure the advanced system. Assembly line production of the missiles and their accompanying systems has already begun", IAI Programme Director for Air & Missile Defence Systems Boaz Levy told Globes business daily
Yes. This is the way to go. Partner with interested parties to bring best capabilities to the table from all sides, increase potential market size for everyone (this LRSAM business is shaping out to be a $10b opporunity, if the air defense requirements of India and Isreal alone are considered, and some potential of $2b more if there are 3rd party sales). These kind of numbers will make all including global biggies like LM and Raytheon etc, give an arm and a leg for it.

Expect more JV proposals , especially from US and others for new systems where there is an overlap .

This LRSAM/.Barak-8 is clearly a top drawer system, easily among the best in the world there is in it's class. DRDO seems to have done a brilliant job with the dual pulse propulsion by all accounts and the Isrealis have done a great job with the guidance , air frame and of course the multi fuction AESA radar.

Cost will be a major deciding factor. I recall that the ESSM Blk2 specifications were in many ways dictated by costs and how much performance was 'affordable' for that type of a missile. The same holds true for Astor 30. Beyond the ESSM customers (10-14 nations iirc) there will be a significant ME market that may be possible if India leads the marketing and a quick surface launched program. The market for such systems is getting crowded however both in the sea launched and surface launched categories so cost will be very important. Also, both sea launched and surface launched missile programs practically run on future proofing and upgrade funding (hence lack of global interest in MEADS) so assuring potential customers in continuous enhancement and development would be crucial.

raghava · Post by **raghava** » 30 Nov 2015 20:32

Thakur_B wrote:Dr Saraswat himself said that the max range was over 600 km when flown at 18 km altitude. Nothing new in that.

Thakur_B Sir,

the burn rates I mentioned were calculated for sea level.

Also IIRC, Dr Saraswat talked about 600 km @ 18km altitude as a forthcoming research area during a lecture at IITB in 2013.

at the risk of being very simplistic, there are broadly three ways to increase the range of such a mijjile.

1 - circumvent or remove a software lock (if there is one) on the on-board-computer. This runs the risk of breaching the JV contract with the Bear. They will not willingly provide the key as it will certainly go against MTCR. Maybe under very dire circumstances like war, - a one off exception might be made but there is no guarantee.

2 - altering the flight profile - to Hi-Hi with glide etc. Though this does increase the range, it will no longer have the radar evading advantage of a low flying trajectory.

3 - slow and painful R&D - subsystem by subsystem where things are improved step by step. "Indiagenised" liquid fuel is just one subsystem which allows for increased range, lower cost, faster manufacturing, and the knowledge gained will feed into future projects.

I apologise for the vague details, but I hope you will understand.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Nov 2015 20:39

Kanson wrote: Q: with "indiagenization" is MTCR valid ?

Kanson you are well enough informed to be able to understand the implications of MTCR if you Googal for the MTCR document and read it. It means jackshit. No one is under any obligation to stick to it. Not even signatories.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Nov 2015 21:27

Raghava, any more tid bits?

raghava · Post by **raghava** » 30 Nov 2015 22:26

Karan M wrote:Raghava, any more tid bits?

Karan M garu,

Let me pose a multiple choice question to you...

Which of the following have ordered the land based systems of the "2 river" mijjile?

a - thal guys
b - nau guys
c - vayu guys
d - a & b only

or
.
.
.
.
e - a, b & c

Take this as a question or as a tidbit - it is upto you

*forgive the one smiley

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Nov 2015 22:53

e

I'd wager.

army is known. so is AF. (i dug the latter out of some document sometime back)

navy was looking for styx replacements..so may have ordered it as well.

John · Post by **John** » 01 Dec 2015 04:09

We have discussed this topic to death range of almost any Ashm is double or triple its advertised range if flight path is altered and terminal phased is reduced.

Heck even Saddam had silkworm modified into close to 300 km eange land atttack missiles and many articles have brought out the risk possed if countries like pakistan modify harpoons for similar purpose.

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Dec 2015 04:14

shiv wrote:OK. Suppose Brahmos violates MTCR. What the frick is anyone going to do about it. There is nothing to fear or hide. I think it is hilrious that Brahmos flies to 297 km and then simply dives into the sea and commits soosai.

India won't be able to export it

There can always be an export variant that is "restricted" to less than 300km range. Maybe replace some fuel with ballast to make it so.