Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

[shaun]

Azerbaijan mi17 equipped with spike NLOS and data link

[ks_sachin]

Shaun the question is why the Mi17?

[shaun]

Shaun the question is why the Mi17?

Yes , because we already have so many dedicated platform like LCH , Apache , Hind

[Pratyush]

Shaun the question is why the Mi17?

It's payload is over 4 tons. It can deploy multiple missiles in a single sorties.

It also has the ability to operate at all operational locations of the Indian armed forces.

[uddu]

Any news on SANT?

There was a test from Mi-35

[ks_sachin]

Shaun the question is why the Mi17?

It's payload is over 4 tons. It can deploy multiple missiles in a single sorties.

It also has the ability to operate at all operational locations of the Indian armed forces.

Pratyush I am not convinced by that reason. Is it all Mi17s or select squadrons.

What armr will a Mi17 in Tawang or Chabua encounter?

There has to be some other reason or some other way The weapon will be employed.

[Pratyush]

I am not suggesting that it will be used as an anti tank gun ship at all locations.

If it can operate at a specific location. It also has the ability to kill enemy tube artillery. Or Short range Anti air assets, from a range where the enemy anti air assets can't shoot our choppers. Or for that matter supply depots.

Gives a whole lot of tactical options to us.

[ks_sachin]

Pratyush are we seeing the beginning of a leyered anti armr Etc capability starting from the inf bn backwards.

[Pratyush]

I don't believe so.

I am seeing the Indian military is getting serious about precision strikes against deep areas of the enemy.

The spike NLOS, the Pinaka Mk2, the Excalibur purchase and long standing efforts to develop a domestic PGK fuse for the 155 mm shells. The domestic sourcing of MALE.

This will also have an effect in terms of significant improvement in Anti armour capacity of Indian army at different levels.
But that's not all this is doing.

This is beginning to change the tactical capacity of the Indian army in a way, that is not being discussed openly.

I think we can call it RMA with Indian characteristics. If you consider the improvement in the capacity of infantry platoon in the northern regions. With magnified day sights and light weight thermal imaging divices for the new 7.62 NATO firearms.

The leathality of Indian army is reaching a different level.

[shaun]

Shaun the question is why the Mi17?

It's payload is over 4 tons. It can deploy multiple missiles in a single sorties.

It also has the ability to operate at all operational locations of the Indian armed forces.

In the absence of any defensive aids , these hepters are sitting ducks in a contested air space . Moreover , apart from Canisterised missiles there should be operator console and data link pods adding to the weight .

[ks_sachin]

I don't believe so.

I am seeing the Indian military is getting serious about precision strikes against deep areas of the enemy.

The spike NLOS, the Pinaka Mk2, the Excalibur purchase and long standing efforts to develop a domestic PGK fuse for the 155 mm shells. The domestic sourcing of MALE.

This will also have an effect in terms of significant improvement in Anti armour capacity of Indian army at different levels.
But that's not all this is doing.

This is beginning to change the tactical capacity of the Indian army in a way, that is not being discussed openly.

I think we can call it RMA with Indian characteristics. If you consider the improvement in the capacity of infantry platoon in the northern regions. With magnified day sights and light weight thermal imaging divices for the new 7.62 NATO firearms.

The leathality of Indian army is reaching a different level.

That is what I was alluding to.

[ks_sachin]

It's payload is over 4 tons. It can deploy multiple missiles in a single sorties.

It also has the ability to operate at all operational locations of the Indian armed forces.

In the absence of any defensive aids , these hepters are sitting ducks in a contested air space . Moreover , apart from Canisterised missiles there should be operator console and data link pods adding to the weight .

You are assuming that they will be used like other attack heptrs.

[Pratyush]

The missiles are 70 kg a piece. 16 missiles in will be under 1.2 tons. The control systems and data links will be another 50 kgs max. The machine has MFD which can take the inputs provided by the control systems.

So the machine it self doesn't require much changes. If the IAF is comfortable with the co pilot being the Gunner.

Or they can just add a seperate console with a missile shooter. Total added weight will be another 200 kg for operator seat and console. The machines are already fitted with a self defence suit

[Pratyush]

I don't believe so.


Snip.
That is what I was alluding to.

Then I misunderstood what you were asking and am happy that we are arriving at the same conclusion.

[shaun]

The missiles are 70 kg a piece. 16 missiles in will be under 1.2 tons. The control systems and data links will be another 50 kgs max. The machine has MFD which can take the inputs provided by the control systems.

So the machine it self doesn't require much changes. If the IAF is comfortable with the co pilot being the Gunner.

Or they can just add a seperate console with a missile shooter. Total added weight will be another 200 kg for operator seat and console. The machines are already fitted with a self defence suit

Yes but even Israelis and khans comfortable with their attack hepters taking that role with combination of both helfire and spike . And " there is not yet a way to automate and consolidate the Salvo concept onto to a single helicopter "

[Pratyush]

Yes but even Israelis and khans comfortable with their attack hepters taking that role with combination of both helfire and spike . And " there is not yet a way to automate and consolidate the Salvo concept onto to a single helicopter "

We are not US or Isreal. We don't have to follow the SOP established by those countries. Just because we are going to use a missile manufactured by one of the two.

We are perfectly capable of developing our own SOP and employment doctrine.

[kit]

India arming Russian Mi-17 helicopters with Israeli NLOS anti-tank guided missiles (Non Line of Sight) . the missiles will have a strike range of 30 kms excerpts

am still trying to understand the rationale for buying the israeli missiles., dont we have the helina and dhruvastra..and sant ?

Toi has carried the news that the spike is the next best thing to whatever.. nice PR

[Aditya_V]

I guess SANT is taking time and we want to see really see how good the NLOS is in reality so that we don't try to achive best of Brochure for it and then delay its acquisition.

We need these type of missiles on UCAV and Fighters taking out Paki tanks and artillery in numbers from high altitude.

[shaun]

SANT or helina derivatives are off different class compared to spike NLOS in terms of range and sensors . SANT have both dual Seeker mmwave and IR

[ldev]

It's payload is over 4 tons. It can deploy multiple missiles in a single sorties.

It also has the ability to operate at all operational locations of the Indian armed forces.

Pratyush I am not convinced by that reason. Is it all Mi17s or select squadrons.

What armr will a Mi17 in Tawang or Chabua encounter?

There has to be some other reason or some other way The weapon will be employed.

If you were the IAF would you prefer to let HAL/DRDO tinker with integration on Dhruv with uncertain timelines on when the project will be completed or will you prefer to outsource the entire integration to Israel who will also supply the missile and who also have been integrating various members of the Spike family including NCLOS missiles onto MI-17 helicopters for the Azerbaijani airforce for the last 10+ years? Plus the MI-17 can carry 4 NCLOS missiles on underwing slots and is also capable of operating at altitudes in Leh/Ladakh. And the IAF has a substantial fleet of MI-17s. And while the MI-17 is not an attack helicopter, the NCLOS range will enable the MI-17 to be used as a stand off platform against armor.

[ks_sachin]

Pratyush I am not convinced by that reason. Is it all Mi17s or select squadrons.

What armr will a Mi17 in Tawang or Chabua encounter?

There has to be some other reason or some other way The weapon will be employed.

If you were the IAF would you prefer to let HAL/DRDO tinker with integration on Dhruv with uncertain timelines on when the project will be completed or will you prefer to outsource the entire integration to Israel who will also supply the missile and who also have been integrating various members of the Spike family including NCLOS missiles onto MI-17 helicopters for the Azerbaijani airforce for the last 10+ years? Plus the MI-17 can carry 4 NCLOS missiles on underwing slots and is also capable of operating at altitudes in Leh/Ladakh. And the IAF has a substantial fleet of MI-17s. And while the MI-17 is not an attack helicopter, the NCLOS range will enable the MI-17 to be used as a stand off platform against armor.

???
Please read what I have written.
The last 3 or 4 words in my post.
Don’t go of on a tangent mate.

[ldev]

If you were the IAF would you prefer to let HAL/DRDO tinker with integration on Dhruv with uncertain timelines on when the project will be completed or will you prefer to outsource the entire integration to Israel who will also supply the missile and who also have been integrating various members of the Spike family including NCLOS missiles onto MI-17 helicopters for the Azerbaijani airforce for the last 10+ years? Plus the MI-17 can carry 4 NCLOS missiles on underwing slots and is also capable of operating at altitudes in Leh/Ladakh. And the IAF has a substantial fleet of MI-17s. And while the MI-17 is not an attack helicopter, the NCLOS range will enable the MI-17 to be used as a stand off platform against armor.

???
Please read what I have written.
The last 3 or 4 words in my post.
Don’t go of on a tangent mate.

There can be multiple objectives. Ease of integration with Israel is one of them. To the extent that Mi-17 can operate at 6000 meters it reduces the burden of deploying tanks in Ladakh with all the attendant problems of cold weather operation and maintenance. Not that the IA will stop deploying armor in Ladakh, but it adds one more arrow in the quiver against Chinese armor. The Apache fleet is far too small even though we saw numerous photographs of Apaches being deployed in Ladakh during the height of the tensions. An NCLOS equipped Mi-17 will add to the helicopter borne ATGM force.

[ramana]

It gives flexibility to Indian military. And 30km standoff range is great asset. It can be used on variety of targets.
Why do our members question every move of the military?

[ks_sachin]

???
Please read what I have written.
The last 3 or 4 words in my post.
Don’t go of on a tangent mate.

There can be multiple objectives. Ease of integration with Israel is one of them. To the extent that Mi-17 can operate at 6000 meters it reduces the burden of deploying tanks in Ladakh with all the attendant problems of cold weather operation and maintenance. Not that the IA will stop deploying armor in Ladakh, but it adds one more arrow in the quiver against Chinese armor. The Apache fleet is far too small even though we saw numerous photographs of Apaches being deployed in Ladakh during the height of the tensions. An NCLOS equipped Mi-17 will add to the helicopter borne ATGM force.

Ease of integration is no objective.
I am convinced of the weapon but it’s use with Mi17 picques my curiosity.
While it can operate at 6000 Myra how effective is it at that altitude.
I think we need Hari Nair Sirs input to put a stop to these arm chair discussions.

[Pratyush]

It gives flexibility to Indian military. And 30km standoff range is great asset. It can be used on variety of targets.
Why do our members question every move of the military?

Because it is an import and most members including me are unhappy imports.

This one I am quite happy with.

However, in the next 5 years. I will want to see an Indian equivalent of this in service with all rotary wing assets.

[Prem Kumar]

Spike-NLOS seems like a good buy. We don't have anything in that range in our indigenous kitty. Not just Mi-17, it could even be mounted on a truck and hidden well behind mountains, with SF troops, UAVs etc feeding target coordinates. But a truck-mounted Spike-NLOS might belong to the IA domain - hope they go for that option too.

I wish the IA & IAF also show the same alacrity in ordering Helina/SANT/Dhruvastra (& spare the endless-trials which they have waived off for Spike)

[kit]

It gives flexibility to Indian military. And 30km standoff range is great asset. It can be used on variety of targets.
Why do our members question every move of the military?

Boss, thats how we understand why ! That said it seems as one member said the versatility of the missile is one reason with availability of the Sant in a similar capability still years down the line (?) , upgrading the hundreds of Mi17 in an Anti tank role is indeed a significant boost to anti armour ops.. also it seems it is the doctrinal philosophy of IA ..looking at preferences of the Rudra ... over LCH., they seem to prefer attacking armour at stand off ranges rather than short range duels

So combining the preference of Rudra with Spike NLOS makes the IA anti armour doctrine more clear , i think

[Prem Kumar]

I hope the IA & IAF philosophy doesn't stop with Mi-17/Rudra with standoff missiles. All contact will not happen at luxurious NLOS ranges (we are not the USA) and we need machines that will rough it out at shorter ranges & the corresponding missiles as well

This cold-shouldering of LCH is truly bizarre

[Pratyush]

Snip....

This cold-shouldering of LCH is truly bizarre

Perhaps the main issue is the human resource base for these machines. For the transport gun ship the IAF has no HR issues. As it already exists. But getting HR for additional attack helo might be a training infrastructure issue.

[kit]

I hope the IA & IAF philosophy doesn't stop with Mi-17/Rudra with standoff missiles. All contact will not happen at luxurious NLOS ranges (we are not the USA) and we need machines that will rough it out at shorter ranges & the corresponding missiles as well

This cold-shouldering of LCH is truly bizarre

Indeed how this plays out in the Himalayan heights i don't really understand. maybe makes better sense in the plains/ desert aka against the pakis . NLOS brochures don't mention its performance in high altitudes do they

[ramana]

Kit this is one rapid lesson from Ukraine Crisis.
The need to bolster anti-armor/mobility missiles.
Also, recall PLA had deployed many combat battalions across LAC.

[A Deshmukh]

We have seen Chinese strength in good roads and vehicles/mobility & armor.
Any anti-armor capability is a good step in a right direction.
LCH airframes are being built, and will take time to get in numbers required.
MI-17 augmentation will be faster.

With the current govt stress on Indian solutions, it will be Apache + Rudra + MI17 + LCH
its not MI17 or LCH. LCH will come.

[hnair]

As per wiki-chacha, India has 223 Mi17s. We might not think in those terms, but after first few NLOS lands on their laps, the PLA will develop a certain respect for its sound echoing in the valleys and will have to take a quick decision on whether to disperse a high-value convoy or not.

It certainly adds cost to the PLA logistics and impacts ease of operations due to the abundance of the launch platform (mi17). On the Indian side, it is an instantly available platform with proven logistics and maintenance infra in the higher reaches. A plug in solution for short term, to cover gaps exposed by Russian losses.

[fanne]

I am very happy with this purchase. IAF/IA holds an inventory of nearly 50,000 -60,000 1st and 2nd generation ATGM that could be used against tanks, vehicles, bunkers...troop concentration...you name it. An extended, precise, .1KM (100 meters)-4 KM munition against both static and moving targets. (beyond ranges of Grenades, LMG, HMG; Mortars is too imprecise at this range, Artillery and airplanes, these are too near for comfort to be used). In the range of .1-4 KM, the best option is ATGM - perhaps the only option against tanks and armored vehicles, that too if they are moving.
With 1st and 2nd generation, ATGM that we have, the operator is exposed, and it may not be ideal. While we make Nag, SANT, Helina, we will ideally need 60,000 to 80,000 of them to replace the current inventory. I am glad the govt is not penny-pinching and realized that these are needed in numbers, not for just anti-tank but other stuff as well (in fact a heli was brought down by ATGM in current UK/RU conflict).
With these 3rd and 4th generations, the ATGM range moves from .1KM -4 KM range to .1-30 Km range. Spike NLOS is proven, lets get some 1000s of it, hopefully, made in India under license and fast (they are ready for some action in Oct/Nov 2022 if China so chooses). Some 80,000 - few thousand spike will still have to be fulfilled with current and future versions of NAG, Helina, SANT in the next 20-30 years. The pie is too big for few thousand spikes to make a difference and if I recall right, Israel was offering it quite cheap. Maybe we can get the NLOS versions and not buy the 10 Km version and let our SANT fill it (it has just finished testing, I doubt we have a production capacity of more than few 100/yr. In time it will reach 1000s/year, but that is few years down the line.)

[shaun]

As Hnair Sir said , this have more deterrence value . The most important feature is its live feed of target , acts as BDA , recce of target area . Will be game changer if the same set of munitions have the ability to communicate with each other , when fired in Salvo mode and its AI can prioritize targets , with one munitions (pack leader ) keeping constant link with its lunch platforms and the rest prosecuting targets . Right now spike NLOS don't support Salvo mode .

[Prem Kumar]

1) At 30 Km ranges, its effectively a BVR missile for an anti-armor role
2) The infographic specifically shows its utility in the mountains - to attack a target on the other side of a mountain

What's interesting is the kind of trajectory shaping the Spike would need, in order to achieve this (assuming this is not just brochure-speak). In the tests, we can see it do a pop-up after launch. But how does it know "how much" to pop-up and when to descend in a highly mountainous region like the Himalayas? Does it have to be pre-fed coordinates in order to avoid peaks, does it use a radar altimeter ......?

[ks_sachin]

1) At 30 Km ranges, its effectively a BVR missile for an anti-armor role
2) The infographic specifically shows its utility in the mountains - to attack a target on the other side of a mountain

What's interesting is the kind of trajectory shaping the Spike would need, in order to achieve this (assuming this is not just brochure-speak). In the tests, we can see it do a pop-up after launch. But how does it know "how much" to pop-up and when to descend in a highly mountainous region like the Himalayas? Does it have to be pre-fed coordinates in order to avoid peaks, does it use a radar altimeter ......?

Remember while LAdakh has Armour country the IA has been building defences in this for donkey's years. We know all the logical approaches for armour ingress. Do we need to take out all the armr with expensive ATGM's when we could just need to choke them and then hit them with massive arty which is also well established there? Anti tank mines also come into the mix.

[shaun]

1) At 30 Km ranges, its effectively a BVR missile for an anti-armor role
2) The infographic specifically shows its utility in the mountains - to attack a target on the other side of a mountain

What's interesting is the kind of trajectory shaping the Spike would need, in order to achieve this (assuming this is not just brochure-speak). In the tests, we can see it do a pop-up after launch. But how does it know "how much" to pop-up and when to descend in a highly mountainous region like the Himalayas? Does it have to be pre-fed coordinates in order to avoid peaks, does it use a radar altimeter ......?

Don't think it got radar altimeter , got control structures for navigating to target and it requires good release altitude for achieving it brochure range and more. I am skeptical of its range from ground based platforms or from "ground hugging" hepters for targets behind hill / mountains etc . What altitude was that apache at when it released the missile for that record breaking strike??

We inducted spike ER even though its IIR seeker failed in identifying targets at thar summer trials , as the 2 way data link with video feed is its main adavantage over indigenous equivalents.

[Prem Kumar]

2 way datalink with video feed was demonstrated in Helina at least 4 years ago! I remember AeroIndia videos about it. Some were arguing that it was dropped in favor of a longer range IIR for a LOBL solution. That logic never made sense to me because, beyond certain ranges, you need LOAL. Plus this is the kind of tech thats re-usable across UAVs, loitering munitions and ATGMs. Am positive that our solution is fairly mature, even among private players like Tonbo Imaging.

So yes, we do have the same capability. If the IA/IAF wish to induct them...

[shaun]

2 way datalink with video feed was demonstrated in Helina at least 4 years ago! I remember AeroIndia videos about it. Some were arguing that it was dropped in favor of a longer range IIR for a LOBL solution. That logic never made sense to me because, beyond certain ranges, you need LOAL. Plus this is the kind of tech thats re-usable across UAVs, loitering munitions and ATGMs. Am positive that our solution is fairly mature, even among private players like Tonbo Imaging.

So yes, we do have the same capability. If the IA/IAF wish to induct them...

Sorry to ask again was it IR Feed of target or tele-vision feed like spike NLOS ?