Bharat Rakshak

Ok. But why India?

^ I wonder if you are really being slyly sarcastic.. (I hope so)

If not, then do you really think that the Russians and the Chinese will really be OK with including the Yanks and the Japs and also the other way round?

rsingh wrote:Ok. But why India?

India holds its traditional multi-vector course in foreign affairs for decades I think. Nothing new.

Manish_P wrote:... do you really think that the Russians and the Chinese will really be OK with including the Yanks and the Japs and also the other way round?

The Israelis are included, although in other competitions (driving).

2-nd day, the participants in the competition compete in arranging an ambush and conducting sabotage actions. Indians can be seen at 5:10, 5:55 minutes.


In addition:
INDIA, RUSSIA TO FORM PERMANENT HIGH-LEVEL CONSULTATION CHANNEL

We take part in events like the Tank biathlon (which also has the chinese), Spec-Ops CT drills among others...

Our founding fathers wisely chose not to put all our eggs in a single basket...

Igorr wrote:

rsingh wrote:ONE ASK SIMPLE QUESTION ..... WHY?

For Quad movement balancing I guess.

By showing tactical decisions to Chinese . Well Our MOD has sent them. May be they know better.

Manish_P wrote:We take part in events like the Tank biathlon (which also has the chinese), Spec-Ops CT drills among others...

Those competitions that I know and in which India takes part are as follows: 1) Competitions of army special forces and intelligence near Novosibirsk, together with Russia, China, Belarus and others. 2) Competitions of engineering troops to overcome enemy lines of defense, together with the same countries. 3) Competitions of combat swimmers in Iran, together with Russia, China, Iran, Vietnam and other countries. 4) Sniper competition in Belarus, along with Russia, China, Pakistan and many countries, the flags of which can be seen in the following video:





In addition to the direct participants, as we found out, at these international army games, there are also observers from more than a dozen countries, including Japan, Australia and Turkey, although not at every competition. Games are simultaneously held in 11 states (Russia, Belarus, China, Vietnam, Mongolia, Serbia, Qatar, Algeria and others) in various types of military art, including pilots competition.

^^^
I hear about such exercises every now and I know MOD India knows better. But some time is important to hold back and ask.........What is going on here. Common person like me asks question. We were standing eye to eye with China recently in Ladakh region. Chinese killed 20 brave solders by thugs. Why are we telling him how we think in different situations. This Hind-Chini Bhai Bhai is complete nonsense. I do not understand. What we will learn from Serbia,Qatar and Algeria is a mystery to me. If I am not wrong there were such exercises between Germany and Russia before WW2. Germany came to know unpreparedness of Soviet forces. They even left some pieces of artillery as souvenir. I think I saw it in some of the film (by Mosfilm). It was on Belorussian boundary.
I understand exercise with Russia. Most of our equipment is Russian and Russia is a friendly country. Rest was not needed. I am sorry to bring this post out of context. It is not and attempt undermine Igorrs fantastic posts.

rsingh wrote:^^^
If I am not wrong there were such exercises between Germany and Russia before WW2. Germany came to know unpreparedness of Soviet forces. They even left some pieces of artillery as souvenir. I think I saw it in some of the film (by Mosfilm). It was on Belorussian boundary.

Both sides learn something. It is true that Hitler has outsmarted Stalin mainly because the last didnt listen to his generals. But I dont think Indians less smart than Chinese in any way.

You guys forget in 1962 the Chinese came for similar assessment of Menon, Nehru General Thapar etc and felt they could pull it off Military aggression since the Indian Military preparedness was poor and leadership was pretty pathetic.

rsingh wrote:ONE ASK SIMPLE QUESTION ..... WHY?

to know the enemy better. While they observe us...we also observe them. Let's not lose our sleep over this. These exercises are highly tactical in nature and dont involve larger board games.. well if our military preparedness is that poor then perhaps we deserve to be flogged...but i doubt that it is that bad..as for hitler/stalin..we all know how that ended for both of hitler and stalin..so as much painful as it was for russians..i would rather be on the side of stalin than of hitler...

There is a series on Stalin available on the BBC. Not for the fainthearted, very realistic narrative of Stalin's brutality and his great misadventure with Hitler. Series explains much how modern European borders were redrawn after WW2.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... -episode-1

The only thing Brits will not tell you is just Stalin wanted west to fight Hitler while he watched, the British wanted Polish German fight against the Russians, that was the main object behind Munich, turning a blind eye to Fasict involvement in the Spanish with armaments in clear violation of the Versailles Treaty etc.

Poland was sacrificed as Hitler became too uncompromising and completely changed the game with Molotov Ribbentrop pact. And after the victory in France in 1940, the true German Nazi behaviour came out. It was with operation Barborossa that thier real behavior started, Holocaust with bullets killing 2.5 million Jews- till then the policy was to make Jews emigrate to Madagascar or somewhere else, starving 2 million Soviet POW , it was Hitler who stopped some of the madness since Germans needed workers. Over all I think Germans killed 7-8 million Soviets other people in non combat killings, plus 2.25 million Soviet battle deaths. After that it was a Total war between the Germans and Soviets.

This does mean Stalins and the Soviet-Russian regime's, Holodamor, Purges and Gulag emigration, genocide against the Poles in 39-41, Katyn etc. Should be forgotten, Putin blaming Poland for WW 2 was laughable

Lisa wrote:There is a series on Stalin available on the BBC. Not for the fainthearted, very realistic narrative of Stalin's brutality and his great misadventure with Hitler. Series explains much how modern European borders were redrawn after WW2.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... -episode-1

How can watch this in India?

Youtube has it. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL72D4B62B2B520F47

Thanks

Rudradevji,

Thank you. Learnt something today.

Lisa wrote:There is a series on Stalin available on the BBC. Not for the fainthearted, very realistic narrative of Stalin's brutality and his great misadventure with Hitler. Series explains much how modern European borders were redrawn after WW2.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... -episode-1

This is very distorted version by BBC. UK youth thinks that WW2 was won by RAF bombing. It is not fair. One has to go deep into Soviet propaganda material and filter the truth out of junk. One need nerve of steel to stand up to Nazis on doors of Moscow. Churchill was a foggy character. In Soviet films and history material, Soviet hate-red for him is clear.
Roosevelt was much appreciated .Montgomery is a joke. Stalin was bad. Very bad. But he crushed Nazis. One need really strong leadership in such times. I am rare specimen who admire Stalin. What Churchill did to India is not well covered by Indian Media. Why there is no film about his brutality in India?
I lived for 5 years in USSR/ Russia. There was no internet in those days. Went trough documentaries, film and propaganda material. Heck, one of my professor lost one leg in war . He threw grenade on a German tank. Guy had 7 tanks on his count. Meet hundreds of such people. Still like steel. More josh than a young man. Just like have seen such people in India. But none in Western Europe. First decree by Brussels Mayer ( after German occupation) Explains the situation. Decree says "It is shameful that while our men are fighting on front, every house hold has became brothel for Germans. This is depressing for our man. The guy was a real patriot. Nazis were soft in Western Europe. Just my observation. JMO

Sir, Have you seen the series yet?

Indian team in the Spec-op competition near Novosibirsk, on 16:00

Lisa wrote:Sir, Have you seen the series yet?

Lisa ji Such series are not available in Brusselabad. I remind you that i wrote "Just my Observation" at the end of my post.BBC Mass media is regionalised. The series you mentioned is based upon historical facts (according to British) . What I am saying is look at different prospectives according to different cultures. . Series gave so much importance to to Churchill, his views.........for Russia he was a no man. Intact he delayed Second front. He waited till he was clear that Russia will win on Eastern front. Who the hell was Churchill to discuss Polish Issue. I have never seen any historical document that talk about Stalin discussing Polish territories with Churchill. Now that is a shock to some people. in no battle , front, tactical or strategic , there is any mention of British involvement. They had some elements of polish resistance based in UK, which was beaten to death in British Media. In reality it was Soviets who decided.
Incident like Hatini where Soviets kill top Polish officers. It is portrayed in a very simple form. It is very complicated. Will write some other day . Cheers

Ji, Just politely asking if you have actually seen the series that you are commenting on, it appears that you have not.

Secondly, I do not recommend its watching in passing but because I have as a hobby studied European history from 1914 to the current date and believe that there are facts, that are new and that some people may find them interesting, particularly Stalin's complete failure to understand Hitler and his responsibility in the calamity he caused by failing to listen to his military high commands recommendations and furthermore, information on Stalin's material support of both the German state and logistics for its military operations.

Thirdly, I am very surprised that you write "Who the hell was Churchill to discuss Polish Issue", Britain went to war because of Poland! It was the failure of this matters resolution post-war that caused the Cold War that has framed much of this World's current miseries.

Rudradevji, has provided YouTube links, please watch them first and then I will happily discus the BBC's bias as you point it out.

Lisa ji, I any such series made by BBC is not available in Belgium. Not even on YouTube. All you get is 1 min Clip.same with yes minister type.
My kids went to English education system . At SPA , Exeter, Oxford and Edinbriugh. We had long discussions on UK history books,film,serials etc. I am following BBC and Economist mag since 1979. There is a pattern in the British culture. And that pattern says hate all slave countries. Hate Russia and try to incite the smaller Slavic countries against countries. Do you really think Englad went to war to save Poland? It was a calculated move because Churchill thought it will never come to bombs on English soil. It was a war far away and Hitler will never attack English interests. Who care about Poland. Englad is a great world power and it has to show it is still relevant. Just like Tony Blair was batting for Turky . He wanted Turkey to be in EU.
AnywY, Russia never gave UK any importance. You know the story of Story Of Light Brigade. Well I know other side of the story......the Russian side. You won't belive the farce that is propagated by by British. The same way in such series they are trying to show that Stalin was taking in Churchill seriously. Well Churchill was tried to project power but was ultimately saved by US. Well post some clips of where Soviet thinking is expressed.
If you have time to watch please do watch Polish series " Polskie Dorigi" about ww2. I do not think you will get it in English . So my posts are based upon media that you are not exposed to. Any way any discussion about Churchill in Russian and German media is to add some sense of humor to the grim saga and not because he counted much. JUST MY HONEST OBSERVATION JMHO.

Please do not curse me for my Grammer and spellings. I am not very careful. I have to speak 6 languages daily. Word "of" is "or" Dutch for eg. So you may find such mistakes. Currently trying hand on German
Dutch , French and English for client contacts
Hindi and English with my kids
Russian with my SHQ for some expressions which I can not express in any other language.

I binge-watched the whole series. You can access the entire thing here. It should be noted that it is a British perspective of Stalin and the high level diplomatic intrigues. I knew about the Katyn massacre and Warsaw uprising, but this sheds a whole new light on Polish history.

But for a military perspective of 2nd World War eastern front, I strongly recommend the "Soviet Storm" series.

Btw, when would we create a documentary series with the Indian perspective of Churchill and how he genocided millions of Indians ?

Follow-on of the competitions in Siberia, the Indian team can be seen on 3:10, 4:20, 5:45

https://youtu.be/j0t5CHhsuaM

Example of Russian prospective, based upon actual actual historic documents.
Watch from 1:15:00. English subtitles. There are many more. BTV all machinery used were real and real Soviet army solders were used.jut the scale of machinery movement is amazing. I personally like these. I am still waiting for Indian film on Churchill. Yes it Soviet propaganda film. But narrative about Churchill is same.

rsingh wrote: It was a calculated move because Churchill thought it will never come to bombs on English soil. It was a war far away and Hitler will never attack English interests. Who care about Poland. Englad is a great world power and it has to show it is still relevant.

Ji, My last post on the matter. Churchill became PM on May 10, 1940, war was declared on Germany 8 months earlier by Chamberlain on 3 September 1939. Cause,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Pol ... y_alliance

"This morning the British ambassador in Berlin handed the German government a final note stating that unless we heard from them by 11 o'clock that they were prepared at once to withdraw their troops from Poland, a state of war would exist between us. I have to tell you now that no such undertaking has been received, and that consequently this country is at war with Germany."

Srinji, If and when you have time, please lookup/read

Hitler's Greatest Defeat: The Collapse of Army Group Centre, June 1944 by Paul Adair. Referenced by

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration

" The Soviet Union destroyed 28 of 34 divisions of Army Group Centre and completely shattered the German front line.[17] It was the biggest defeat in German military history and the fifth deadliest campaign in Europe, killing around 450,000 soldiers,[18] while 300,000 others were cut off in the Courland Pocket."

To put into perspective, total number of German divisions on the entire western front was 59.

One Churchillian speech was worth 10 Soviet divisions.

My last post. too. What I am saying is one must gather information from different prospective. Simple. Govts make important policy decisions after much deliberation with professional buerocatrs. In this way PM may come and go but policy stays. UK has habit of showiing an image of Super power. Example
Why on earth UK will send her latest ship to Japan . It has not that big naval of navel power. US is doing main show of strength and UK it just taking benefit . No body asked any question but they declared that it has nothing to do with situation in South China sea. As if China was worried.
So no one is worried in about what cobre meeting will decide about an incidents in Afganistan. Who cares. US was actual player. Churchill personal contribution was tp put up am image of a bold and decisive character. But he opinions were never taken seriously by Stalin and Russia. He had to follow the decisions of Stalin and Roosevelt. JMO

sanjaykumar wrote:One Churchillian speech was worth 10 Soviet divisions.

Yes. If only he made those speeches without US help.

Lisa, I have watched carefully the episodes of this historical BBC film. I agree with rsingh that this is skillful propaganda, at least no less skillful than Soviet historical films on this topic.

To make your view of the subject more balanced, consider the following facts:

1) Russia went through the hardest war with Poland in 1920, when the Poles, taking advantage of the weakening of Russia in World War I and the subsequent revolution, treacherously attacked the Russia and Ukraine, capturing the ancient capital of Russia, the city of Kiev. The Poles would have captured more if the Russian army had not launched a counteroffensive. In this war, they was lucky to free only a part of the territory that was captured by the Poles. Another part remained under Polish occupation until 1939, when the USSR became finally able to liberate these lands from the invaders.

2) The Poles treated Russian prisoners of war extremely cruelly in 1920. Many were shot without trial or investigation. For some reason, until now, this fact does not bother anyone except the Russians. But the Russians themselves, of course, could not forget this, and this circumstance, the motive for revenge, influenced Stalin's decision to destroy a significant part of the Polish officers. I personally consider the extermination of prisoners of war to be an illegal event, but I perfectly understand the motives of the Russian leadership, acting on the principle: that next time the Poles do not have to kill Russians.


3) In 1920, the British supported the Polish aggression against the Russians, the memory of those events inspired Stalin's distrust of Churchill, no less, but even more, than he had towards Hitler. Churchill's Russophobia was one of the reasons for the erroneous policy of the Russians in relation to the German threat.

4) The Poles, together with Hitler, participated in the partition of Czechoslovakia, so their catastrophe was, in a sense, historical justice.


5) Many European countries, after giving Hitler the opportunity to tear to pieces Czechoslovakia, concluded non-aggression pacts with Hitler. Among such countries were France and Poland proper. Russia was the last country to enter into a similar pact with Hitler in Europe.

6) Stalin took from Poland only those lands that the Poles illegally seized (with the assistance of Britts) in 1920 from the Russians. Instead of these economically underdeveloped lands with a Ukrainian population extremely hostile to the Poles, Poland received huge compensation in the form of economically developed lands of native Germany: West and half of East Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia, Brandenburg and other lands. Moreover, Poland received these lands without any German population, which the Poles robbed and forced to flee to Germany. Thus, Poland has turned from a multinational country with an aggressive Ukrainian minority into a mono-ethnic country. If before the war Poland had only a small outlet to the Baltic Sea, now it has the widest outlet to the sea at the expense of the primordially German lands. There is no need to explain that Poland has not won a single war with Germany in its history, and its expansion has been paid for exclusively with the blood of the Russians. Clever Poles still thank Stalin for territorial changes that are extremely important for the fate of Poland. The fact is that Poland has never challenged and does not dispute these changes, which means only one thing: the Polish leadership recognizes the territorial changes carried out by Stalin, completely just and beneficial for the Polish nation.

7) The very same Ukrainian nationalists, about whose fate the filmmakers are so crying, killed many more Poles than all Soviet security services. And among the victims of Ukrainian nationalists were tens of thousands of raped and murdered Polish women, children and old people. And for all these crimes, just a certain Ukrainian lady who supported the Ukrainian nationalists received a rubber truncheon on the head from Soviet investigators. Not a very big compensation for the suffering of the Poles from the Ukrainians, who burned children alive and pricked pregnant Poles with a pitchfork.


Before lamenting about the fate of the displaced peoples in the USSR, one should remember the Japanese in the United States, who were all gathered in concentration camps, where many of them died.

9) For some reason, the British did not remember about the artificial famine in Bengal during the Second World War, which they themselves organized, exporting food for their needs in Europe. And if we dig deeper, then let's remember the artificial famine in Ireland, which the British organized back in the 19th century, and from whom, in fact, Stalin and Hitler learned 'philanthropy'. Hitler called for treating the Russians as 'Indians'. It is clear what he meant ...


10) For some reason, the destruction from the air of the civilian population of Germany by the British is not perceived as a crime, although in the course of these raids, the Anglo-Americans killed many more people than Stalin did with Polish officers. More civilians were killed during the British bombing of Dresden alone than during the atomic bombing of Hiroshima. In addition, the vast majority of the victims of the Anglo-American bombing were civilians. The Russians, even in the most difficult period of the war, did not allow themselves to do this. The Russians also did not massacre German prisoners, although the feeling of revenge demanded this. Only SS men were shot on the spot.

We must not forget that continental Europe was waging a war of destruction against the Russians, and the lasts did not have the English Channel, and even more so the Atlantic Ocean, to hide behind it from the hordes of invaders. The only salvation was a tough central leadership. Look at what the Japanese were doing in China, and you will understand better why the Russians and Chinese were susceptible to the red dictatorship.

Thanks for the perspective Igorr.

There is some slight introspection among liberal Brits about the role of Bomber Harris and the fire bombing of Dresden.

I am always at a loss for why the virulent Russophobia in Europe.

But I must let you know, even in the 21st century many Europeans fear Germans more than Russians.

Igoorji, Thank you very much for your perspective. I read it with interest and will in time investigate further that part of this history.

Interesting, it is always in the interest of the stronger power to influence and gain concessions/treaties so that they can focus on the weaker powers first.

Liza, the history of contemporary Europe has many black spots. Here on the map the territory of the Kingdom of Poland indicated as a part of the Russian Empire. These are the territories in which the Poles actually constituted the majority of the population, and to which they had all rights after the secession:


And here are the territories that the Poles captured in 1920 with the support of Great Britain and France. Besides getting lands of defeated Germany and Austria Poland seized the lands of Russia on which the Eastern Slavs lived for a thousand years differing from the Poles in religion and culture:


The Poles could not but understand that Russia will try to return these lands at the earliest opportunity. What could they count on? Only for an alliance with Great Britain, France and Germany directed against Russia. But it didn't work out for them, as you know ... Sorry.

About the Warsaw Uprising and why the Soviet Union did not help the Poles then. To begin with, the Polish resistance was clearly divided. One part, the Home Army (Armiya Krayova), relied on the support of Great Britain, and the other, the People Army (Armiya Ludova), relied on the support of the Russians. The Home Army organized the uprising in Warsaw, and the purpose of this uprising was to capture Warsaw before the Russians came there. The British promised support and in every possible way pushed the Home Army command to this uprising. But they underestimated the strength of the German divisions, and they were still very far from the strength of the Red Army. Proceeding from this, they themselves did not ask the Russians for help, as this would mean the Russians entering Warsaw. The whole point of the uprising was precisely to prevent the Russians from entering Warsaw! Now imagine if Stalin fell into this Churchill's trap and entered Warsaw: the pro-British Poles would immediately yell that their victory 'was solen'! Instead, Stalin gave the Home Army an opportunity to show itself at its best. If everything went wrong for them, this is already a problem of their own leadership and trust in British guarantees, which turned out to be no more reliable than the US guarantees to secular Afghanistan.

This series also raises the question of why the Russians did not help the Poles even with aviation. This is not entirely true: assistance was provided by artillery strikes from the eastern suburbs of Warsaw, lying across the river, where Russian and Polish soldiers of the People Army were already stationed. Then it was more precise support than aviation in city fighting.

By the way, it was the units of the Ludova's Army that took part in the storming of Berlin, and therefore, for example, the units of the Polish Army are always invited to the Victory parades in Moscow.

In addition the film does not reflect the Jewish uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, which took place on the eve of the Polish uprising. Thus, a legitimate question immediately arises: why did not such 'democratic' Poles or 'noble' British give the Jews any support? British could destroy the Auschwitz's installations as well but they didn’t. Why?

Igorrji,
Thank you again. One question, how different is spoken Polish from spoken Russian?

If you want to learn about European history please go to Apostolic Majesty youtube channel,
he is very through and his knack for detail is amazing...

He covers the Tsar, Lenin and Bolsheviks............ everything from beginnings of greece into rome
to WW2... catholic church etc..... Austria Hungarian Empire..

https://www.youtube.com/c/ApostolicMajesty/featured

I dont wish to derail the Russia thread so please move if required.

For those that make the effort and see what he produces...
Is there any equivalent person from which I can learn about Indian history, Thanks

Please check out the detail with which he talk to see what I am after.

I know that channel. It narrates European history through a very, very Christian Supremacist lens. Listen to their episode on the Roman Emperor Julian-- whom they dismissively call "Julian the Apostate", in line with Church propaganda.

Julian was the grand-nephew of the Emperor Constantine, who had adopted Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire. All non-Christians began to be brutally & systematically persecuted, their temples demolished, their property seized etc.

When Julian became the Emperor, he made a brave effort to go back to the old Hellenic gods and restore the ancient glory of Greco-Roman culture. Predictably, he was widely slandered and then assassinated by the Church. Christianity then metastasized across Rome and the result was the collapse of civilization, followed by the Dark Ages.

That Apostolic Majesty decides to continue with the slander of Julian tells me all I need to know about him. He is an apologist for Christist barbarism.

End of OT.

Lisa ji it is not same but we can make out what are they talking about.it is both way.

Lisa wrote: Srinji, If and when you have time, please lookup/read

Hitler's Greatest Defeat: The Collapse of Army Group Centre, June 1944 by Paul Adair. Referenced by

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration

" The Soviet Union destroyed 28 of 34 divisions of Army Group Centre and completely shattered the German front line.[17] It was the biggest defeat in German military history and the fifth deadliest campaign in Europe, killing around 450,000 soldiers,[18] while 300,000 others were cut off in the Courland Pocket."

To put into perspective, total number of German divisions on the entire western front was 59.

I know about Bagration. Didn't know before, but I watched the Soviet Storm a few years ago and was just blown away. The sheer numbers and causalities on Eastern Front is mind boggling. School textbooks (even here in India) stop at Stalingrad at the Eastern Front and glorify D-Day like it won the war.



Parading the defeated Germans on streets of Moscow, as well as keeping the bottles of salt water of Riga in Kremlin are just bloody genius things to do.