Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

[mody]

Finally explosive charge for propulsion instead of rocket engine! Dreams do come true!

The Sivakasi Diwali variants do have tech. Maybe DRDO upscaled it for the Agni series and added guidance as well

[mody]

https://twitter.com/8r02s125558/status/ ... LlU9iud8gw ---> Ground trials of DRDO NASM-SR on a Sea King helicopter of Indian Navy. This anti-ship missile will go on all naval helicopters used by Navy.

I do think missile should have much higher range launched from ACs, I do hope we work on integrating them with our ACs while we wait for ER.

For aircrafts we already have the Brahmos for the Su-30MKI and the for the rest of the fleet, the development of the Brahmos-NG is ongoing. No need for a short range anti-ship missile launched from aircraft. The heli NASM-SR launched is supposed to have a range of about 55 Kms. Launched from the high and fast flying aircraft, it would be increased to max 100 Kms. However, the aircraft would be easily detected.

[Kakarat]

https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... xLR5jbD64A

Extended Range Version of the #BrahMos Air-Launched missile was successfully fired from Su-30 MKI fighter aircraft. The missile achieved a direct hit on the designated target in Bay of Bengal region, as planned.
Press Release: https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1824795

[Vips]

'A direct hit’: IAF successfully fires extended range version of Brahmos missile from Su-30 MKI.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) said it has successfully fired extended-range version of the BrahMos Air Launched missile from Su-30 MKI fighter aircraft. The launch from the aircraft was as planned and the missile achieved a direct hit on the designated target in the Bay of Bengal region, news agency ANI reported.

It was the first launch of the extended range version of the BrahMos missile from Su-30MKI aircraft. With this, the IAF has achieved the capability to carry out precision strikes from Su-30MKI aircraft against a land and sea target over very long ranges, it added.

BrahMos Aerospace, an India-Russian joint venture, produces supersonic cruise missiles that can be launched from submarines, ships, aircraft, or land platforms. BrahMos missile flies at a speed of 2.8 Mach or almost three times the speed of sound.

The range of the advanced version of the missile is learnt to have been extended to around 350 km from the original 290 km.

Last month, an anti-ship version of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile was successfully test-fired jointly by the Indian Navy and the Andaman and Nicobar Command. In a tweet, the Andaman and Nicobar Command said the test-firing was carried out.

[bharathp]

dear sirs - is there any danger of brahmos missile parts (the ones supposed to be russia's side of the agreement in the jv) being constrained in supply chain issues due to ukr/roos yudh now and roos building up their stocks later?
i hope we have indiginised every nut and bolt of that strike missile and no longer dependent on roos - but wont that make roos unhappy with us for other tech (akulas, other sub / sensitive tech that no other western nation would give)?

[SSridhar]

So, this was a a 350-Km extended range missile that hit a ground target from a Su-30 MKI.

[Rakesh]

So, this was a a 350-Km extended range missile that hit a ground target from a Su-30 MKI.

That too at supersonic speed and that is the published extended range figure for us aam junta to digest on.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... jS0zCVBFtg ---> Extended Range Brahmos successfully tested fired from Su-30MKI.

[John]

I do think missile should have much higher range launched from ACs, I do hope we work on integrating them with our ACs while we wait for ER.

For aircrafts we already have the Brahmos for the Su-30MKI and the for the rest of the fleet, the development of the Brahmos-NG is ongoing. No need for a short range anti-ship missile launched from aircraft. The heli NASM-SR launched is supposed to have a range of about 55 Kms. Launched from the high and fast flying aircraft, it would be increased to max 100 Kms. However, the aircraft would be easily detected.

Think you got cut off at “the for the rest of the fleet”? Currently Brahmos is limited to 40 or so Mki that have structural changes to carry it IIRC. NG still hasn’t hit testing we are looking at atleast 2030+ before it is inducted. NASM SR could serve as short term/cheaper option for time being IMO.

[Prem Kumar]

Rajat Pandit claims that this was tested to a range of 450 Km after the Rambha was refueled.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 525694.cms

Another very interesting snippet about the Brahmos 800 Km gorilla in the article. He says that it was first tested in Jan 2022 & that it will be ready for production by end of 2023!

[ramana]

dear sirs - is there any danger of brahmos missile parts (the ones supposed to be russia's side of the agreement in the jv) being constrained in supply chain issues due to ukr/roos yudh now and roos building up their stocks later?
i hope we have indiginised every nut and bolt of that strike missile and no longer dependent on roos - but wont that make roos unhappy with us for other tech (akulas, other sub / sensitive tech that no other western nation would give)?

From what is public the engine is Russian-made.
I thought by now it's made locally.
Ukraine War shows the wisdom of full indigenization.

[Aditya_V]

So, this was a a 350-Km extended range missile that hit a ground target from a Su-30 MKI.

That too at supersonic speed and that is the published extended range figure for us aam junta to digest on.

Not 350Km, 450Km as articles today.

[A Deshmukh]

The range of the advanced version of the missile is learnt to have been extended to around 350 km from the original 290 km.

What the range of the air launched version earlier?

[Prem Kumar]

^ It was 290. Its now 450.

[Prem Kumar]

Ukraine War shows the wisdom of full indigenization.

That would be the logical conclusion, sir. But the Chandigarh lobby's twisted conclusion will be to diversify the gravy train to include imports from the West.

[Vips]

There have been multiple reports of what the range of the 'extended version' is. Early trials for the Army version had mentioned 400 kms. This figure started coming out as soon as the MTCR restrictions became non-applicable for India. There were also reports that the original range of Brahmos was always more but due to the MTCR restrictions it was limited to 290 Kms by a software lock.

[mody]

450 Kms seems to be the range of the extended version. There was reports earlier of a 600Km range. However, for now the range has been extended to 450Kms with an indigenous seeker. The next phase in the development is a 800Kms range version. The 450Kms has now been tested from ground, ship launched in both anti ship and ship to surface role and air launched.

[mody]

For aircrafts we already have the Brahmos for the Su-30MKI and the for the rest of the fleet, the development of the Brahmos-NG is ongoing. No need for a short range anti-ship missile launched from aircraft. The heli NASM-SR launched is supposed to have a range of about 55 Kms. Launched from the high and fast flying aircraft, it would be increased to max 100 Kms. However, the aircraft would be easily detected.

Think you got cut off at “the for the rest of the fleet”? Currently Brahmos is limited to 40 or so Mki that have structural changes to carry it IIRC. NG still hasn’t hit testing we are looking at atleast 2030+ before it is inducted. NASM SR could serve as short term/cheaper option for time being IMO.

For the current fleet, the Il-38s and Mig-29K carry the air launched version of the Kh-35 Uran, The Jaguar IM's and P8I's carry the Harpoon Block-II and 42 Su-30 MKI's have been upgraded to carry the Brahmos. All of these missiles have a longer range as compared to Nasm-ER. The Brahmos-NG development is ongoing and will most likely enter production within the 2-3 years. Already a production facility for the same is being earmarked in the UP defense corridor. Once the Brahmos-NG enters service, the Kh-35 Urans might be relegated to being carried only by the Il-38s. The Tejas MK1/MK1A, Su-30 MKI, Mig-29K and possibly even the Rafael might carry the Brahmos-NG.

[A Deshmukh]

There have been multiple reports of what the range of the 'extended version' is. Early trials for the Army version had mentioned 400 kms. This figure started coming out as soon as the MTCR restrictions became non-applicable for India. There were also reports that the original range of Brahmos was always more but due to the MTCR restrictions it was limited to 290 Kms by a software lock.

Ground / ship launched would be different from air-launched version.
Air-launched needs to be lighter, as carried by Su30. but also does not need energy to boost to a height and launch speed.

[SSridhar]

dear sirs - is there any danger of brahmos missile parts (the ones supposed to be russia's side of the agreement in the jv) being constrained in supply chain issues due to ukr/roos yudh now and roos building up their stocks later?
i hope we have indiginised every nut and bolt of that strike missile and no longer dependent on roos - but wont that make roos unhappy with us for other tech (akulas, other sub / sensitive tech that no other western nation would give)?

From what is public the engine is Russian-made.
I thought by now it's made locally.
Ukraine War shows the wisdom of full indigenization.

Yes, I agree with the bolded part.

Making a ramjet engine would not be difficult for DRDO/Indian industries. We already have one for Akash and are fairly well-advanced in SCRAMJET. It may only be a political decision, IMO.

Here is a history of increased indigenization of BrahMos.

Originally, Russia supplied the airframe, engine and seeker, while India contributed the inertial navigation and fire control systems. After the July 2014 Chandipur ITR test, it was announced that the airframe (both composite & metallic that were tested in the flight) was also indigenous.

In c. 2018, Godrej Aerospace began to ship BrahMos airframes for the air-launched version. It had already been supplying airframes for the ground-launched BrahMos version. By c. 2019, Godrej Aerospace also started supplying BrahMos boosters. Godrej Aerospace is also making the fuel-management system of BrahMos responsible for managing the liquid propellent and controlled flow combustion of fuel.

With these, the only Russian component in BrahMos is the ramjet engine. On September 30, 2019, a BrahMos missile was tested successfully with its slew of Indian-built systems that have boosted Indian content in the weapon to 65%. In a statement, the Indian MoD said the BrahMos had been tested today (Sep. 30, 2019) with an ‘Indian propulsion system, airframe, power supply and other major indigenous components’.

In an interview after a successful BrahMos test in September 2020, the CEO of BrahMos said that Indian-made RF seekers were used in two tests, one involving a land target and another a ship and it performed well. He expected the Indian seeker to go into production in about six months (i.e. by first half of 2021).

[shaun]

^^ boosters too considered part of propulsion.

[ShivS]

Any records of a Brahmos being fired on moving targets- say a manouvering ship?

After nearly 21 years (first test was on 12 June 2001) of test firings, if the missile is not capable of striking a moving target, then...

I have not come across such a video myself, but maybe other posters have. As per this news report, the BrahMos can engage a moving target.

With BrahMos Missile, Air Force Can Hit Enemy Ship In Minutes
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/with-br ... es-1778799

The BrahMos used today is 500 kilos lighter than the versions used by the Army and Navy which weigh 3 tonnes. The BrahMos can strike fixed targets like terrorist camps using pre-programmed coordinates which are entered into the system prior to the mission.

Alternatively, the BrahMos can be guided to a moving target such as a ship using inputs from Indian military satellites or through a data-link between the missile or friendly warships or maritime reconnaissance aircraft.

All the destroyers (Delhi, Kolkata, Visakhapatnam and Rajput) and frigates (Nilgiri, Talwar and Shivalik) in the Indian Navy are armed with this missile. As far as I know, they have all tested (or will test) their missiles against static targets. Perhaps the IN believes enemy vessels will stay anchored at a fixed location

You would be surprised as to how rare tests against manouvering targets are - if there is a public release about one, I would be keen to see it.

Most of the information you have referenced is about getting the missile to a point where the active seeker can take over. The hard part in targeting and hitting a manouvering target comes after that.

[SinghS]

Most of the information you have referenced is about getting the missile to a point where the active seeker can take over. The hard part in targeting and hitting a manouvering target comes after that.

Is it really so hard when the relative velocity of the target wrt incoming missile makes the target almost stationary?

[ldev]

You would be surprised as to how rare tests against manouvering targets are - if there is a public release about one, I would be keen to see it.

Most of the information you have referenced is about getting the missile to a point where the active seeker can take over. The hard part in targeting and hitting a manouvering target comes after that.

That is the case for Indian tests. The US has long ago demonstrated that capability. The video below is an early demonstration/test in 2015 with an un-armed Tomahawk anti ship missile. The latest version now operational has a range of more than 1000 miles i.e. means that the target ship sailing at say 20 knots could have moved 70 km + in the time that the missile is in transit for 2 hours.

[Tanaji]

How does it work against a typical ship superstructure that is moving as opposed to one loaded with containers providing more of a target face? The missile cant manoeuvre at the last instant which can be a difference between a hit and a miss.

Still no doubt very impressive.

[ldev]

How does it work against a typical ship superstructure that is moving as opposed to one loaded with containers providing more of a target face?

This was an early test, actually the footage was released in 2013. From my reading the current generation of seekers in the Tomahawk & Long Range Anti ship Missile can target specific parts of the moving ship i.e. bridge, deck, waterline etc.....

[Tanaji]

9 years old… things would have definitely come a long ways then. The US MIC is unparalleled.

[brar_w]

How does it work against a typical ship superstructure that is moving as opposed to one loaded with containers providing more of a target face? The missile cant manoeuvre at the last instant which can be a difference between a hit and a miss.

Still no doubt very impressive.

They do SINXEX's fairly regularly so most of the AshM's and munitions get tested using decommissioned ships. Also, loading a ship with containers doesn't degrade the test much. Of course you can't test for lethality in such a case but then most of the times these tests don't do that anyhow. Most ships that load up with containers are simulating an actual deck of an actual ship which is hundred of feet in height. Most of the time when you are at the stage of testing you have verified your seekers ability to identify, discriminate, and track .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TCxsKS9jIY

[ShivS]

Most of the information you have referenced is about getting the missile to a point where the active seeker can take over. The hard part in targeting and hitting a manouvering target comes after that.

Is it really so hard when the relative velocity of the target wrt incoming missile makes the target almost stationary?

Speed works both ways. Makes it much harder for the missile to manoeuvre too - esp with the G forces on it.

Some of the most advanced navies do these tests as a matter of course - as many boarders pointed out. The results (part of) are also released. So I would argue that the evidence needs to show that the tests are not needed.

Manoeuver, chaff and ECM would be key to defeating a Bramhos. Seeing tests against a target moving at 25 knots and an AESA seeker would be very important.

[nash]

NASM Test fired

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 0286011392

Vishnu Som
@VishnuNDTV
First indigenous developed anti-ship missile successfully test fired. #IndianNavy

[Prem Kumar]

Super cool!

Am trying to understand the usage here. What kind of surface targets will allow a Sea King to get within 50 Kms to launch the missile?

Is it for prosecuting targets like ASW Corvettes which may not have an anti-air element? Or anti-piracy or just plain old intimidation?

[Kakarat]

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/15 ... TvaEebsYPw

[Pratyush]

Super hot. Now give it glide wings and a small turbo fan to give it 400 km range.

[Kakarat]

https://twitter.com/DRDO_India/status/1 ... TvaEebsYPw (DRDO Video)

#DRDOforIndia |Naval Anti Ship Missile successfully flight tested today from ITR, Chandipur. This is the first indigenous air launched Anti-Ship Missile system for @indiannavy.

[Kakarat]

DRDO & Indian Navy conduct successful maiden flight-test of indigenously-developed Naval Anti-Ship Missile off Odisha coast

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Indian Navy successfully conducted maiden flight-test of indigenously-developed Naval Anti-Ship Missile launched from a Naval Helicopter from Integrated Test Range (ITR), Chandipur off the coast of Odisha on May 18, 2022. The mission met all its objectives. It is the first indigenous air launched anti-ship missile system for the Indian Navy.

The missile followed the desired sea skimming trajectory and reached the designated target with high degree of accuracy, validating the control, guidance and mission algorithms. All the sub-systems performed satisfactorily. The sensors deployed across the test range and near impact point tracked the missile trajectory and captured all the events.

The missile employed many new technologies, including an indigenously developed launcher for the helicopter. The missile guidance system includes state-of-the-art navigation system and integrated avionics. The flight test was witnessed by senior officers of DRDO and the Indian Navy.

Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh congratulated DRDO, Indian Navy and associated teams for the maiden developmental flight test. He said, India attained a high level of capability in the indigenous design and development of Missile systems.

Secretary Department of Defence R&D and Chairman DRDO Dr G Satheesh Reddy appreciated the efforts of the project team for successfully proving mission objectives. He complimented the Indian Navy and Naval Flight Test Squadron for their support to the project and said that the system will strengthen offensive capability of Indian Navy.

3033x2137

[John]

Super cool!

Am trying to understand the usage here. What kind of surface targets will allow a Sea King to get within 50 Kms to launch the missile?

Is it for prosecuting targets like ASW Corvettes which may not have an anti-air element? Or anti-piracy or just plain old intimidation?

Sea Kings will fly lo and stay below radar horizon, no ship can detect and target a low flying target that far away (30 km for a target flying 10-20 meters above the sea level).

[sohamn]

Super cool!

Am trying to understand the usage here. What kind of surface targets will allow a Sea King to get within 50 Kms to launch the missile?

Is it for prosecuting targets like ASW Corvettes which may not have an anti-air element? Or anti-piracy or just plain old intimidation?

Sea Kings will fly lo and stay below radar horizon, no ship can detect and target a low flying target that far away (30 km for a target flying 10-20 meters above the sea level).

You are assuming enemy is not flying CAP defending its capital assets. I think this missile is only useful against lightly armed littoral targets like patrol boats, corvettes, a surfaced sub etc. its a good start, and may be effective against an adversary like pkstn. But for Cheen, they will defend their assets with CAP - possibly with AEW heli's as well. Our helicopters won't be allowed to get into a 50 km radius of a Cheen destroyer.

What puzzled me is - how effective is a IR seeker at long ranges in an open sea during day. I think it has to have some mid course guidance, but how will a sea king offer any mid course guidance without a proper radar? Or, is the mid course guidance provided by the mother ship? Even if the helicopter knew the coordinates of an enemy combatant, by the time the missile travels the 50 kms ( around 5 mins ) a high speed patrol boat ( 30 knts/hr ) would have moved away by 5 kms.

[John]

Sea Kings will fly lo and stay below radar horizon, no ship can detect and target a low flying target that far away (30 km for a target flying 10-20 meters above the sea level).

You are assuming enemy is not flying CAP defending its capital assets. I think this missile is only useful against lightly armed littoral targets like patrol boats, corvettes, a surfaced sub etc. its a good start, and may be effective against an adversary like pkstn. But for Cheen, they will defend their assets with CAP - possibly with AEW heli's as well. Our helicopters won't be allowed to get into a 50 km radius of a Cheen destroyer.

What puzzled me is - how effective is a IR seeker at long ranges in an open sea during day. I think it has to have some mid course guidance, but how will a sea king offer any mid course guidance without a proper radar? Or, is the mid course guidance provided by the mother ship? Even if the helicopter knew the coordinates of an enemy combatant, by the time the missile travels the 50 kms ( around 5 mins ) a high speed patrol boat ( 30 knts/hr ) would have moved away by 5 kms.

Helos should be operating under the air defense coverage of surface combatants with STAR+barak-8 you are looking at 100 km bubble and once XR SAM comes that should increase to 200. Ashm from Helos will be mainly used to target smaller surface combatants like missile boat swarm which we probably don't want to waste a Brahmos on.

As for IIR seeker effectiveness and need for datalink it would take the missile about 3 mins to travel max range I can’t see a ship moving away that far. But this image does indicate it does have datalink to deal with faster moving vessels this should increase its kill probability against fast moving missile boats than even Brahmos to be honest (which may have trouble detecting a small missile boat with its active seeker where as NASM-SR can utilize the datalink to get few km away from target before locking on using its seeker).

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/123 ... k4xifZ9A3A

[ramana]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASM-SR

NASM-SR is a helicopter launched naval anti-ship missile being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation for Indian Navy. DRDO mentioned for the first time in 2018 has broken cover at the ongoing Defence Expo show in Lucknow. This project is possibly being developed for a number of platforms, having different ranges. ‘SR’, or Short Range, means that development of other longer range versions is expected as well.[2] Indian Navy successfully carried out the first test of the missile from Seaking helicopter.[3] NASM-SR approaches the target at 5m above sea level making it difficult to intercept.[4]

Testing
Indian Navy successfully carried out the first test of the missile from Seaking helicopter.[5]

and from The Week
https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2022/ ... tters.html

...
The weapon would have a warhead of 100kg, capable of sinking patrol boats and damaging larger warships. The NASM-SR, on approach to its target, can cruise at just 5metres above sea level, making it difficult for enemy radars to detect and track and shoot down with surface-to-air missiles or guns. This low-level capability of anti-ship missiles is known as sea-skimming...

The Indian Navy is not new to helicopter-launched anti-ship missiles. It had equipped its Sea King helicopters with the British-built Sea Eagle missiles in the 1980s. The Sea Eagle had a range of around 100km and a weight of around 600kg and used a radar seeker. The heavier weight of the missile would increase the take-off weight of the Sea King helicopter, reducing its range in flight. In comparison, the NASM-SR imposes a lower weight penalty on the Sea King and similar helicopters.

Moreover, the use of an IIR seeker means the NASM-SR is impervious to radar jamming by enemy warships and also less likely to be detected on approach as it is not using a radar to track its target....

The lighter warhead of the NASM-SR is capable of doing significant damage. The recent sinking of the Russian warship Moskva in the Black Sea and the loss of British warships in the Falklands War of 1982 show that modern navy ships have enough flammable material on board (fuel, wiring, weapons, electronics, etc.) that can exacerbate the damage done by even small anti-ship missiles.

Usually, the explosives are 40 to 50% of the warhead's weight. As the writer is alluding to fire damage there could be pyro material like Aluminium etc in the metal casing.
Looks like a new type of warhead is developed.

[Rakesh]

Nice video of the missile launch ---> https://twitter.com/DRDO_India/status/1 ... LfPysa5gjQ