India-US Strategic News and Discussion

saumitra_j · Post by **saumitra_j** » 20 Dec 2013 11:59

pankajs wrote:Agree sirji. Do not we remember the USS <whatever> sailing into the Bay of Bengal during the '71 war?

Sir, that was not a direct kick on the backside of somebody in the IFS. This one is, as evident from the above report by Kati.....

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Dec 2013 12:00

Karan M wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:{quote="Rahul M"}we are alone and should plan that way.{/quote}

This not entirely true. There is much genuine affection for India within the USA. Something we would be well advised not to pi$$ away in a H&D funk. America & Americans want to see India succeed. They are thrilled with India's rapid growth.

India needs the USA more than the USA needs us. We need get stronger before we get emotional. Cool blood please...

Quick question. Average American may dislike the PRC and Russia. Are they stronger than India economically and technologically, respectively, even so? So does the rise of nations depend on how much average citizens like those nations or on real politik and what those nations themselves do? I believe that is what Rahul M is getting at.
Strength comes from within, not without.

Putin and the PRC would simply and routinely have jailed, raped and shot a few US diplomats retaliation and the US would just have to suck it up. The bharara's wouldn't dare take the chance of comparing d!ck sizes with putin or the PRC

With India, the GOTUS does not ever see such a possibility. We are weak because we are too compromised with our slimy, grubbing politicos, corrupted babus, NGO's, DDM and EJs in bed with them. The US can bank on these entities to undermine and suborn the Indian process in the US's favor without a sense of right or wrong.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Dec 2013 12:01

Damn. Forgot the link. - http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-bu ... /301928?hp

Hear KC talk about how this has been a practice in place for nearly 2 decades and has come under strain only in the last 2-3 years under the democrats who have been highlighting 'human trafficking offenses' and going after them. Uttam also mentions that they paid Richard more than the $1600 in total split between india and the us.

RCase · Post by **RCase** » 20 Dec 2013 12:01

Talking of filling out forms and dotting the i's and crossing the t's, I have a question:

For bringing over same sex partners or unmarried girl/boy friends for consular folks, does the GoI forms have a provision for that? Would they be entered under 'Spouse' for Indian visa purposes? If true, wouldn't this just be similar legalese for visa purposes?

If I recall there was some ruckus in accomodating Carla Bruni of France with protocol (at that time she was not married to the President but was his companion).

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Dec 2013 12:05

In Beijing, the Chinese Foreign Ministry lodged a formal complaint with the United States over the arrest of Mr. Yu, noting that the police had violated international treaties by following Mr. Yu onto the consulate’s grounds.

The United States responded with a promise to investigate the episode quickly and fully. “The department takes this incident very seriously and has been in touch with the Chinese Embassy about what occurred,” a spokeswoman at the State Department, Nicole Thompson, said.

Sister of Chinese embassy official in New York arrested for 'shoplifting $150 worth of clothes' from Macy's
By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
PUBLISHED: 16:36 EST, 25 May 2013 | UPDATED: 16:36 EST, 25 May 2013

The sister of a Chinese diplomat was arrested in New York on Thursday after allegedly shoplifting two shirts and a dress worth around $150 from Macy's flagship store in midtown Manhattan.
Officers charged Guo Wang, 37, with criminal possession of stolen property and petit larceny before members of her family kicked up a fuss trying to get her released, as reported by the New York Post.
Her brother Bangfu Wang is a chief at the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs in New York while Guo is visiting the US on a tourist visa.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z2nzqAT01R

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Dec 2013 12:06

They were given visas as family members I think.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Dec 2013 12:11

Devyani Khobragade row LIVE: India must take a strong route, says BJP

12:01 pm: BJP on Devyani case

Bharatiya Janata Party leader Ravi Shankar Prasad said India must take a strong route and should not let a prosecutor govern the foreign policy.

So clearly this is going to be an election issue.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Dec 2013 12:12

11.32 am: India can't be taken for granted, US must apologise, says Kamal Nath Refusing to step down from its stand, India today said the United States has to apologise and drop the charges against diplomat Devyani and there were no two ways about it. Speaking to reporters today, Union Minister Kamal Nath said India was not going to be kicked around and the United States must apologise."Times have changed, India has changed... we cannot be taken for granted by the United States... they must apologise and drop charges."

Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/world/devyani- ... ef_article

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Dec 2013 12:16

Modi will probably wait for the next hearing set for January 13.

More Chai anyone?

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 20 Dec 2013 12:18

Rcase wrote: However revolting it is to use TSP as an example, I think the mirror needs to be held for these so called editors. I am disgusted with the pompous tripe that they are dishing out. I am surprised that the media never highlights the Raymond Davis case and the work around was found with everyone of the aggrieved parties 'voluntarily' agreeing to pardon the accused. They didn't have to be evacuated to ensure there was no threats from the TSP gobermint to these parties

Diplomatic Abuse of Servants: Not Just for Indians
By: Peter Van Buren Wednesday December 18, 2013 6:57 am

A federal judge awarded $3.3 million to an Ethiopian woman who accused U.S. diplomat Linda Howard and her husband of raping and enslaving her. Howard subsequently retired with full benefits.

News reports out of New York highlight the arrest of an Indian consular official for allegedly underpaying her domestic servant, and for misrepresenting the salary on a U.S. visa application. The U.S. State Department assisted in the arrest, claiming for itself a “victory” in the war on human trafficking. Not paying a fair wage is wrong. What is also wrong is for the State Department to be following a double-standard in what it expects from foreign diplomats, and what it expects from its own.

Rape

According to court documents, a U.S. Department of State diplomat and her husband tricked an Ethiopian woman into accompanying them as their domestic servant to Japan, where they held her virtually as a prisoner in their home and forced her to work for them for less than $1 per hour and where the husband repeatedly raped the woman with his diplomat wife’s consent. A Virginia federal judge awarded the victim $3.3 million in damages on a default judgment against the couple. The diplomat retired from the State Department with full pension and then fled the country.

The victim, identified only as “Jane Doe,” told the court she was hired by the Howards in 2008 as a live-in housekeeper at the couple’s home in Yemen, where Linda Howard worked at the U.S. embassy. Doe says she agreed to move with the couple to Japan after Linda Howard was transferred to the embassy there and that she was promised wages of $300 per month, time off each week, health insurance and a safe place to live and work.

Once in Japan, Doe says, Russell Howard repeatedly raped her, forced her to perform oral sex and sexually assaulted her. Doe says Linda Howard was complicit in her husband’s sexual abuse, telling Doe that she should gratify her husband and make him happy. Doe, who speaks little English and no Japanese, says the Howards also used nonphysical force, such as isolation and threats of deportation, to coerce her into servitude.

Justice?

After five months in Japan, Doe says, she fled the Howards’ home in the middle of the night. She says that after she reported the abuse, the State Department removed Linda Howard from her overseas post and launched an investigation into the Howards.

Once back in Washington and while the so-called investigation took place, Howard, according to her LinkedIn profile, worked among other places as a recruiter and assessor for people seeking jobs with the State Department. She tells us on LinkedIn that she received a Superior Honor Award, with cash bonus, from State in June 2011, which would have been well after any investigation commenced. Her LinkedIn profile also references Cleared Connections, an employment site for government workers, suggesting she retained her security clearance from State.

Linda Howard acted in bad faith by telling the court that she was unaware of any upcoming overseas job-related travel and then two weeks later retiring and leaving the country, the magistrate judge said. She also refused to appear for a deposition as ordered by the court and refused to communicate with Doe’s attorneys to facilitate discovery as ordered by the court, Magistrate Judge Jones said.

Now, a question: if the allegations are true– and a Virginia court says they are– Mr. and Mrs. Howard committed felonies on federal property. Mr. Howard is an Australian citizen, so maybe it is a huge guess to wonder if they are outback there. Has the FBI been called in by State, as the FBI has jurisdiction over crimes on federal property.

Murder

Earlier this year in Kenya, an American diplomat who police say was speeding crossed the center line in his SUV and rammed into a full mini-bus, killing a father of three whose widow is six months pregnant. The embassy then rushed the American and his family out of Kenya the next day, leaving the crash victims with no financial assistance to pay for a funeral and for hospital bills for the eight or so others who were seriously injured.

“It is difficult for me to handle this matter because my kids need to go to school. They need everything, basic needs,” the widow said. “And we have no place to stay because we have to pay the rent. We have no money. … Even if my kids are sick I have no money to take them to hospital.”

The U.S. embassy commented “The embassy is fully cooperating with the Kenyan authorities as they investigate the accident and work to aid the victims.”

Abuse and Visa Fraud

Harold Countryman, along with his spouse Kimberly, was a U.S. diplomat assigned to Seoul, Korea. Before leaving the country, he and his wife hired a Cambodian woman to work for them in the U.S. Harold falsified the necessary U.S. visa application to get the Cambodian woman into the U.S., falsely claiming he would pay her minimum wage. Instead, once in the U.S., the Countrymans “Held her passport,” says Chuck Rosenberg, the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia. “Her wages came out to roughly a dollar an hour.” The woman was berated and sometimes assaulted. She was not allowed to leave the Countrymans’ house. Luckily, a neighbor noticed something wrong and called the cops, who luckily took it all seriously. This story has a semi-happy ending of sorts: The couple pleaded guilty to visa fraud, and are paying the Cambodian woman $50,000 in restitution. Harold Countryman, the diplomat, only received probation, however.

Alleged Forced Abortions and Inter-Office Sex

Ms. Kerry Howard, the community-liaison officer at the U.S. Consulate in Naples, claims she was run out of her job with the State Department after complaining about the consul general’s alleged office trysts with subordinates and hookers. One subordinate was allegedly forced to have an abortion.

Ms. Howard stated she had been bullied, harassed and forced to resign after she exposed U.S. Consul General Donald Moore’s alleged security-threatening shenanigans in the Naples, Italy, office. She explained that when she revealed allegations about her boss, State Department officials swept it under the rug, according to an Equal Employment Opportunity complaint she filed with the Department’s Office of Civil Rights. State tried to disappear the issue by transferring Moore out of the country, but now the FBI is allegedly involved.

Sexual Assault

Chuck Lisenbee, a former State Department Beirut security officer who was being probed for allegedly sexually assaulting local guards, is now a special agent in Washington for the Office of Diplomatic Vehicles, Enforcement and Outreach, according to a State Department phone directory. Agents were only given three days to investigate the allegations against him, according to a memo seen by the Post. It is alleged that Lisenbee first got into trouble when he tried to make out with a fellow (male) security officer in Baghdad. His depredations against local guards in Liberia were then discovered. Lisenbee started every lunch with prayer because “Jesus Christ, my lord and savior, is the most important thing in my life” (exact quote heard by this source on at least 50 occasions).

U.S. Embassy Prostitution

The U.S. Embassy in Tokyo has had its share of problems. In the early part of this decade, the embassy paid-for-dormitory for domestics (so they did not have to live with their diplomatic masters) was found full of women not connected with the embassy, some of whom were prostituting themselves on and out of U.S. government property. The public restroom just outside the dorm was a known quickie spot for night time taxi drivers looking for sex. Things were handled nice and quietly by State and the story stayed out of the news and out of the taxpayers’ attention.

Sexual Solicitation of a Minor

Former U.S. Ambassador to Belgium Howard Gutman was allowed to retire in July of this year. A State Department investigator believed Gutman solicited “sexual favors from both prostitutes and minor children.” Gutman and members of Clinton’s security detail were also accused of hired prostitutes.

Sex Tapes and Affairs

Brett McGurk — a former senior adviser to the ambassador to Iraq — was appointed the deputy assistant secretary for Iraq and Iran in August, according to the State Department Web site. He was President Obama’s nominee for ambassador to Iraq but withdrew after his extramarital affair with a Wall Street Journal reporter was exposed, alongside saucy emails sent from his official government account and an alleged sex tape. Apparently, investigators never interviewed McGurk because Clinton’s chief of staff, Cheryl Mills, intervened.

Economic Enslavement?

A bit further back, one Tokyo embassy U.S. diplomat identified here as Thurmond Borden, had domestic troubles. The story is that in 1993, 40 year-old Lucia Martel was working as a domestic in Manila. In March of that same year, Mr. Borden was visiting the Philippines on vacation with his Filipino wife, and the couple was looking for a woman. Mr. and Mrs. Borden offered Lucia a monthly wage of about Y30,000 (USD300). To comply with the Japanese immigration regulations, a written contract was signed that contained very different language. The contract stated her working conditions as six days/week, eight hours/day, a monthly salary of Y150,000 (USD1500), and an overtime pay of 125%. The contract papers were submitted both to the U.S. Embassy and to the Japanese Immigration Bureau.

Lucia started working at Borden’s residence October 16, 1993. Despite her contract, she was forced to work from six in the morning to ten in the evening, and was not allowed to rest even on Christmas and New Years according to reports.

On May 22, 1994, reports were that Lucia complained to Mrs. Borden and the latter confiscated Lucia’s original contract, return air-ticket and Alien Registration Certificate. This Certificate is very important for expatriates in Japan. It must be carried at all times and if caught without it, one may end up being taken into custody by the police. Lucia went to the Naka-ward municipal office to have a new card issued. The shocked office staff who heard her story contacted the police. A Japanese cop visited the Borden’s residence to take Lucia’s Registration Certificate back from Mrs. Borden. Mr. Borden, returning from his work, was said to have become enraged. He allegedly shouted, “Go back to the Philippines!” to Lucia. Lucia feared that she might be assaulted. She fled the residence taking none of her belongings except the clothes she was wearing.

Lucia eventually tried to sue the Borden’s, and organized protest marches outside the U.S. embassy. The State Department, however, claimed diplomatic immunity on Borden’s behalf and the Japanese legal system dropped the case. State Department records list Borden now as the head of the Consular Section in Jakarta where, among other tasks, he has responsibility for issuing maid visas to U.S. diplomats’ domestic help bound for the U.S.

—————————————-

Peter Van Buren blew the whistle on State Department waste and mismanagement during Iraqi reconstruction in his first book, We Meant Well, and writes about current events at his blog. Van Buren’s next book, Ghosts of Tom Joad: A Story of the #99Percent, will be available April 2014 from Luminis Books

[/quote]

Rcase ji,

Forget the murdering rampage seen in Raymond Davis case. See how american diplomats literally prey on the helpless in their turd world postings in the above account . Original link posted by Sanjeevkumar ji.
Let's see how many of our media reproduce this account.

Any way this is one link that must be widely circulated in Twitter and Facebook walls.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Dec 2013 12:19

Theo_Fidel wrote:Well then she should not have gone to USA. This is simply how all Americans are treated.

Theo, she is:
(a) Not an American
(b) A diplomat with rights under the Vienna Convention which an ordinary American or US resident is not entitled to.

Therefore, saying this is how America works is lahori logic.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 20 Dec 2013 12:21

Daliton ke doosre deshon mein apmaan ! This is definitely going to be a major election issue unless the US apologies or India retaliates by putting an American diplomat behind bars.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 20 Dec 2013 12:21

rohitvats wrote:As per Kabil Sibal on one of the news channel,

You mean Kanwal Sibal. Kapil is the idiot brother who only ever turns up to talk about throttling the internet.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Dec 2013 12:21

Austin wrote:US says UN immunity for Khobragade not retroactive

Then how was it retroactive for Raymond Davis??

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Dec 2013 12:22

12:20 pm: India must insist that charges against Devyani be dropped, says Sinha

BJP leader Yashwant Sinha said India must insist that charges against Devyani be dropped and US must apologise. There are many people in India who are living against the law and don't deserve the diplomatic status, they must be arrested, added Sinha.

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/de ... 98098.html

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Dec 2013 12:22

So Nirupama Rao, our former ambassador the us tweeted a few points. One of them being

Second: since she was an accredited diplomat, Embassy should have been informed about impending move to arrest her. Stealth was ill advised.

Violation of vienna regs?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Dec 2013 12:24

Does CON fear US more or Modi?
Will CON be able to defend a dalit ki beti ka aapman?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 20 Dec 2013 12:25

after watching that NDTV show with Barhka......I reiterate my earlier statement: we are morons of the first order. we deserve what we get.

except for KC Singh, and the victim's families, all other are spewing gunga-din nonsense.

and this brings me back to another point: the gunadins should be made to suffer the things that they justify as "law and order" when it happens to their fellow Indians, either by terrorists, or maoists, or foreign govts.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 Dec 2013 12:26

KLNMurthy wrote:
We might say they are preparing the ground for a Modi PMship, during which India will be turned into a "bad actor" in US and much of world media, worthy of US punishment. That would be a way out of having to walk back the insult to Modi.
.

I suspect as much. Congis and US are not so innocent. Both may be together in this.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Dec 2013 12:28

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, this moron doesn't want to be left behind onlee

Azam Khan offers SP ticket to Devyani Khobragade

While taking strong exception to the arrest and humiliation of Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade, Uttar Pradesh’s all powerful Samajwadi Party leader and Urban Development Minister Azam Khan has offered her a party ticket to contest the 2014 Lok Sabha polls.

“I would urge her to quit her service and contest the next general election from my hometown Rampur on a Samajwadi Party ticket”, he told media persons.

“Once she reaches Parliament, she would be in a position to officially register her protest against the United States more effectively”, he emphasised.

Recalling how he had himself been humiliated by the UP immigration officials during his visit on an official invitation by the BostonUniversity, Azam said, “India and Indians have always been given a raw deal by the US government and this was not the first time that an Indian has been humiliated.”

He said, “There have been several occasions when prominent Indians have been subjected to gross harassment and insult, which was also done with me. But I lodged immediate protest and made it known to them that I am not the types who would take that lying down.”

He however lamented that some other “Well-known Indians chose to suffer the humiliation and talked about it only years later.”

The minister also wondered, “Why organisations such as the Bharatiya Janata Party and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad had failed to rise to the occasion in registering a strong protest, when the treatment meted out to Devyani was in gross contravention to the fundamental principles of morality --- a cause they often claim to champion.”

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 Dec 2013 12:29

Dipanker wrote:
venug wrote:No she doesnt habve proper visa for her to work outside her employment. So she cannot leave as she pleases. So what is your point again? Visa rules make her employment restricted, may be you want to call that bonded labour

My point was that Sangeeta is an adult and if she does not want to work for DK and walk out ( and in the process become an illiegal immigrant in US), right or wrong, it is totally her choice.

When you say it is not her choice, I can't agree with you.

That is the point. She had no choice as per her official passport and terms of employment legally. So what she has done is patently wrong and in addition blackmail and threat etc. Now USA is a party to this charade as well. If she had gone on personal passport then it is a different issue.

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Dec 2013 12:31

How come nobody talking about Union Carbide Bhopa Gas Tragedy case which has been recently reopened by Indian Supreme Court.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 20 Dec 2013 12:33

Vriksh wrote:Can we game out the worst case and best case scenario using this incident as a template. The way I see it the USA has carefully thought this through the consequences given the more than 6 months preparation time. CIA and State Dept probably ran some simulations involving various outcomes and how to manage them to suit their interests.

Likely scenarios why this happened are explained below.

India/Indians/Indian System by omission or commission has not be able to deliver something of "great significance" to the US perhaps in the last 6-12 months{I think its more like 6-8 years} and the matter has been simmering ever since. What this "great significant" thing is something that can fall into the following categories 1) Continued Leverage over Indian Govt Functions in the long term as evidenced by the likely exit of the thoroughly compromised UPA leadership 2) Shorter Term access to things like Bangladesh SOFA 3) Mid-term controlled Handover of Kashmir to Pakistan or the US itself.
OR
4) This is simple Cockup which has snowballed .{ with details emerging over past few days, this possibility is now completely eliminated}

I discount item 4 since this was apparently well planned by the US State Department/CIA.

1+2+3) Could be attributed to the rise of NaMo
2+3) Could be attributed to adamance of IFS cadre {its a Bingo} on some issue and/or non deliverance of UPA govt

In order to Punish IFS or GoI or even the Indian people for leaning towards NaMo this jhapad has been given. Logical progression from now on will be as follows
1) USASD will not back down or apologize to India (US considers apologies after it has achieved its goals and maybe in 30 years from now: akin to Internment of Japanese People during WW2 for which the US has not apologized as far as I know, some POTUS may have expressed regret).
2) Media propaganda of Indians and India Govt as a elitist, supporting slavery, being casteist, rapist and christian,muslim,women oppressing society in the western controlled press has already started and will reach a fever pitch.
3) Given the atmosphere the Judicial system in the US will be managed to get a conviction and Jail sentence for DK.
4) GoI cannot do anything since it is compromised and is looking desperately for a face saving exit either from the US or by managing the IFS or Indian Public opinion.
5) Indian escalation Like Pakistan we will have useless effigy burning parades and processions to bring back DK ala Dr Afia of Osama fame which the US has till date only laughed about. A similar template will be used for DK.

What are the options for India?

This incident is more a public humiliation of India's IFS cadre which has been a consistent thorn to the Massa hegemony when ever it comes to protecting Indian turf being encroached in the Indo-Massa embrace (more a one sided strangle) of the past decade.

I remember a wikileak(paraphrasing here) where the Massa foreign service types were whining that IFS babus (unlike most of the turd world whom they managed to bring to heel} are jealously guarding of our foreign policy sovereignty (as opposed to our politicos) and threw up the hands at the end of the cable saying that onlee a generational change in IFS cadre can allow Massa "control".

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Dec 2013 12:38

I think the Congress cannot allow to be seen going soft on the issue. If any unfavorable development was to happen with respect to the lady in question, it will give a very powerful point to NM and BJP. On top of that, she hails from the SC category. This is the last thing Congress wants....I doubt MMS would be willing to go the whole hog (the news bite notwithstanding) but the election compulsion may force his hand. SG has not spoken on the subject for that would give a clear idea about the GOI's stand...RG has made some noises and I don't think GOI can be seen to go in opposite direction to that.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 20 Dec 2013 12:40

chaanakya wrote:

That is the point. She had no choice as per her official passport and terms of employment legally. So what she has done is patently wrong and in addition blackmail and threat etc. Now USA is a party to this charade as well. If she had gone on personal passport then it is a different issue.

So basically she is slave labor? Now I can fully understand why the Indian consul is being prosecuted.
And why the Indian diplomats are morons if they have system like this.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Dec 2013 12:45

The conditions of her employment is also dictated by the US visa. So if the conditionality of passport and visa makes one a slave labour ..Why all aliens working in US from India and other countries, on H1-B etc, are slave labor wonlee.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 20 Dec 2013 12:46

I pointed out earlier, Congress has been soft on whole lot of issues, this now is election time.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Dec 2013 12:47

Theo_Fidel wrote:No way the USA backs down over this. People don't understand how the US works.
Diplomat committed a personal error in judgement and must now pay the personal price. The US system is built on extracting this price.
Hiding behind diplomatic immunity for personal action is weak.

BTW the optics of this in American public opinion is horrible. It is impossible for folks to defend India in this when pointed questions are asked in USA. Back away folks, we are not yet strong enough to challenge. American media is unhappy over the way India has defended the perpetrator. The whole thing looks like feudal privilege gone wrong from outside. There will be consequences for India one way or another if we persist.

It was not DK's personal error; for years, there was an unspoken understanding that the procedure she followed in bringing Sangeeta was the accepted practice for Indian diplos and accepted by the American hosts, letter of the law notwithstanding. This was considered an accepted way to get around the arithmetic of the expected "minimum" salary of the assistant being more than the actual income of DK. So, if there was an error on the Indian side, it was institutional, not personal.

India has not defended any perpetrator (a word which implies a prejudgment in a sub judice matter) so much as reacted to a gross abuse of an Indian diplomat accused of a non-violent crime. You can't gloss over it by talking about perpetrators, caste system and other blah blah. There is only way to interpret DK's mistreatment, and it is that it is a deliberate insult aimed at India.

DK does not, in fact represent a feudal structure. By virtue of her being a Dalit, she represents the exact opposite, the crumbling of that social edifice, not by simple historical decay but by a deliberate choice by India to make it crumble. Her posting to New York itself (when so many Brahmin officers would be eager for that posting) is evidence of this choice by India.

This information above is available to anyone who is capable of reading and comprehending public information sources. On this forum, one is supposed to be biased in favor of India. But even without that, anyone who is even neutral in the matter should be able to see the above, provided they are given the information.

There, that is a cogent defense I have come up with in a matter of minutes. So, I am curious why you think it is "impossible to defend" India.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Dec 2013 12:47

Dipanker wrote:
chaanakya wrote:

That is the point. She had no choice as per her official passport and terms of employment legally. So what she has done is patently wrong and in addition blackmail and threat etc. Now USA is a party to this charade as well. If she had gone on personal passport then it is a different issue.
So basically she is slave labor? Now I can fully understand why is the Indian consul is being prosecuted.

Can you please stop peddling this nonsense? Having contrary POV is one point but to argue and debate w/o checking facts is trolling.

The terms of the A-3 Visa issued to her by the US EMBASSY state that the domestic help cannot work at any other place apart from the one stated in the Visa.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/full-text-co ... 456-2.html

l . "Description of Duties. The contract must describe the work to be performed, e.g., housekeeping, gardening, child care, and also must include a statement that the domestic employee shall work only for the employer who signed the contract.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 20 Dec 2013 12:48

Dipanker wrote:
chaanakya wrote:

That is the point. She had no choice as per her official passport and terms of employment legally. So what she has done is patently wrong and in addition blackmail and threat etc. Now USA is a party to this charade as well. If she had gone on personal passport then it is a different issue.

So basically she is slave labor? Now I can fully understand why the Indian consul is being prosecuted.
And why the Indian diplomats are morons if they have system like this.

Dipanker ji,
For the nth time ,don't divert the issue.
What gives Massa the rights to strip the woman Diplomat completely , make a full cavity search which among other things involves (mentioned explicitly in USMC guidelines, though such details wont come into open) being made to bend on on all four like a dog and parting the butt cheeks to display the anus for inspection , then spreading legs for inspection vagina etc.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 20 Dec 2013 12:49

pankajs wrote:The conditions of her employment is also dictated by the US visa. So if the conditionality of passport and visa makes one a slave labour ..Why all aliens working in US from India and other countries, on H1-B etc, are slave labor wonlee.

CNR Rao has been very emphatic on this subject. He calls all Indian IT professionals working lower level jobs in US as `IT Coolies'. Maybe the US is just employing a new type of slave labour?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Dec 2013 12:51

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
@ lilo
Can we do without the graphic descriptions, please.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2013 12:52

pankajs wrote:So Modi has already started the dictating our foreign policy without being anywhere near the power center in Delhi. Quite an achievement for a Chaiwalla! More pawa to him and more Chai for all of us I say.

Frankly, I do not want this episode to be politicized and it take a different turn dimming the focus and the seriousness it deserves.

The US has erred grievously in multiple ways notwithstanding what their standard procedure is in treating American citizens. Devyani was not an American citizen, the maid was not an American citizen, both are covered by Vienna 1963 conventions, especially Clause 47. We cannot accept that the US Law was above Vienna convention. Then there is the US arrogance of luring away Indians under the guise of 'witness protection' which clearly does not apply to Indian citizens. To top it all, the US has the temerity to cast aspersions on Indian juridical process. We must therefore rise in one voice, except those who see virtues in US actions, cutting above political or other considerations.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Dec 2013 12:53

The maid had a choice not to work for Dr. K or was she coerced by the Indian gov?
The maid had a choice to accept or reject a proposal from Dr. K on her employment terms and that is slavery?
The maid was given an option of returning to India and getting a normal passport via the usual rule? Is that slavery?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Dec 2013 12:55

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Rahul M wrote:we are alone and should plan that way.
This not entirely true. There is much genuine affection for India within the USA. Something we would be well advised not to pi$$ away in a H&D funk. America & Americans want to see India succeed. They are thrilled with India's rapid growth.

India needs the USA more than the USA needs us. We need get stronger before we get emotional. Cool blood please...

It sounds like you are describing an abusive marriage in which all is fine as long as the wife is subservient to the husband. The moment the wife becomes assertive in any way, the husband shows his nasty side, and then "elders" rush in to warn the wife that she would be ill-advised to fritter away the marriage for the sake of her honor and dignity. Nothing is said to the husband, as he is, after all, "the man."

Another way to look at the problem is to put the honor and dignity of both parties up front, with particular attention to that of the wife, since she is the suppressed one so far, and ask whether the relationship can be structured in a way that both can be satisfied and grow. If the answer is no, and the wife considers a separation, then genuine friends of the wife have to support her in her choice.

I hope you get the analogy and understand what is wrong with your thinking.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 20 Dec 2013 12:57

chetak wrote:^^^^^^^^^^^^^
@ lilo
Can we do without the graphic descriptions, please.

Why not ?
Some people on this thread are still living in cloud cuckoo land regarding Massa uprightness aren't they ?
Better to jolt them with facts related to what one can imply by a full cavity search as laid down in their Cuntry of residence's (aka massa's) own USMC rule book - where such "enlightened" rules are enshrined in the "saintly" US justice system.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Dec 2013 12:58

Theo_Fidel wrote:There was no rape. Folks in India can not understand that this is how all americans are processed. Even Ken Lay CEO of $50 Billion company was strip searched and thrown into drunk tank.

Someday India will be the same and there will be no privilege for anyone in India as well.

She is not an American, she is not even an ordinary Indian. As an Indian diplomat in America, she is by definition a member of a different and privileged class and should be treated with the courtesy and deference that is due to her special status. This is standard, this is how international relations work. In an perfectly egalitarian utopia, this would still be the one place where there will be inequality by design.l

Are you actually ignorant of this, or are you willfully ignoring it?

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 20 Dec 2013 13:00

This not entirely true. There is much genuine affection for India within the USA. Something we would be well advised not to pi$$ away in a H&D funk. America & Americans want to see India succeed. They are thrilled with India's rapid growth.

India needs the USA more than the USA needs us. We need get stronger before we get emotional. Cool blood please...

Haha this is a joke ! Americans love nobody in the world not even Brits. They helped everyone in world wars because they knew if they did not they will be burned down to ashes by Germany once everyone else is done and dusted with. Off late they have policy of arm twisting non nuclear nations to its way.

Let me tell you plain and simple here. India does not need us of a. It never needed it in the past and it will not need it in future. They need us for only one thing --> harvesting souls for evangelicals, nothing else. Give me one reason why would they want us to succeed let alone anyone else. Give me one example in the world where a manager has loved when his employee becomes his manager. It is virtually impossible to find anywhere. You will see this in twenty years when our economy will be way over us of a and the day we will have our own passenger planes, thorium reactor, Indian version of GPS and computer chip manufacturing capacity. It in fact will not need anyone as self sufficient nation like France.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2013 13:02

Dipanker wrote:
chaanakya wrote:That is the point. She had no choice as per her official passport and terms of employment legally. So what she has done is patently wrong and in addition blackmail and threat etc. Now USA is a party to this charade as well. If she had gone on personal passport then it is a different issue.
So basically she is slave labor? Now I can fully understand why the Indian consul is being prosecuted.
And why the Indian diplomats are morons if they have system like this.

Dipanker, no employment contract gives complete freedom for either party to do as they please. There will always be some circumscriptions on both. Here, the US visa laws prevent her from leaving the job and seeking another in the open job market. It is the same as the US government itself encouraging IT Coolies or other coolies as they need. If the maid was allowed to go like that, the employer faces retribution as well. One cannot speak from both corners of the mouth.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 20 Dec 2013 13:03

@rohitvats

Can you please stop peddling this nonsense? Having contrary POV is one point but to argue and debate w/o checking facts is trolling.

The terms of the A-3 Visa issued to her by the US EMBASSY state that the domestic help cannot work at any other place apart from the one stated in the Visa.

I have not said that in any of my posts.

The point I have made is:

1. Sangeeta is an adult and if she likes she can quit her job.
2. When she quits her job she becomes an illegal alien in US but it is still her prerogative.