Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

[Muppalla]

While PM is addressing Suvarna TV is transmitting repeat telecast of Modi's speech. Headlines are all on the lines of "Modi storms Karnataka"

[James B]

R Jagannathan, Editor of Firstpost chimes in. Indirectly compares Rahul Gandhi to Duryodhana.

Narendra Modi, Rahul Gandhi and the Power of One

Good article by the author as usual. Mahabharata is a good pointer towards all that which needs to be done and the way it needs to be done.

BTW, Jamesullah, no gussa, but is your journey with Aam Admi types up ?

I still support AAP whenever I can on corruption issues but I may not agree with them on Economic issues. Delhi elections will show what is the effect of AAP. I hope AAP will act as a pressure point on all main stream political parties including BJP to shun their corrupt ways of governance. I still believe in a strong Lokpal and CBI under it (or even independent) given the current shenanigans one can see of UPA in coal scam issue.

[Sanku]

While PM is addressing Suvarna TV is transmitting repeat telecast of Modi's speech. Headlines are all on the lines of "Modi storms Karnataka"

Thank you Saar.

[Muppalla]

In addition BJP is using these kind of vehicles and Modi's speech is transmitted using these vehicles at 20 other locations



The worst part is KA still hate Ananthakumar and others. Yesterday Modi has to get up and say, I came all the way from Ahmedabad to listen to them to cool down the crowd. They want Modi to speak and no one else.


More coverage here:
https://twitter.com/harshaperla

[James B]

Modi will campaign in Mangalore and Belgaum as well.

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/manga ... 130429.htm

[Misra]

There is nothing wrong in criticizing NM for making that unneeded statement. In fact he must be reminded EVERYDAY that he is supposed to be a Hindu leader only. Denying it is equal to denying his very identity. He has taken the first step towards secularism by saying this....

People ridicule this thought by saying there is nothing wrong in equality, Hindutva means equality bla bla. Everyone knows that. But what people are pissed off today is the nuisance and notoriousness of muslims. They want.... Will NM do this? His supporters definitely think he will and NM has no right to put a doubt in the voters' mind. I understand that all these cannot be done in one single (full)term and the priority should be to root out congi first. But that doesn't mean he should alienate himself from what is expected from him.

Also, this election is just the entrance test of NM. His real test will be when he comes to power. The last NDA govt failed in this test. We will see how the great man performs in his real test.

This is an incomplete understanding of Narendra Modi. NM is clearly not the leader for you, at least when it comes to your personal expectations from him. His method and mindset has been on full display in Gujarat for years. He has not had to deny his identity to implement it. Rather his implementation has reaffirmed his identity.

Your generalization of Muslims is unfortunate and cannot be condoned. Narendra Modi himself will advise you to rinse your thoughts. Read Madhu Kishwar's recent account of NM reading and trying to understand the Koran, for instance. More power to him for having the guts to be himself. Whether the likes of you like it or not. Whether the likes of you continue to support him or not. The Togadias have fully deserved to be sidelined by NM. Time to move on.

I'm sure your laundry list for him will happen if/when he assumes a larger role nationally. But I'm not sure it will happen the way you currently think it should.

[Sanku]

Meanwhile the world remains business as usual...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 773104.cms

They will caste their vote: Karnataka still remains extremely caste-conscious

The survey found Dharwad, Gadag, Chitradurga and Haveri districts much more caste-conscious than the coastal or Hyderabad-Karnatak regions. Fully, 97% of the survey's respondents from Dharwad pronounce caste as the most important factor when it comes to choosing a candidate. Nearly 88% of respondents from Gadag, 76% from Chitradurga and 70% from Haveri are caste-conscious. On the other side of the spectrum, Udupi, Kodagu and Dakshina Kannada districts show fewer than 1% of respondents believing caste is important.

There is a excellent graphic in the link which I can not copy but should be looked at.

[Chandragupta]

There is nothing wrong in criticizing NM for making that unneeded statement. In fact he must be reminded EVERYDAY that he is supposed to be a Hindu leader only. Denying it is equal to denying his very identity. He has taken the first step towards secularism by saying this....

People ridicule this thought by saying there is nothing wrong in equality, Hindutva means equality bla bla. Everyone knows that. But what people are pissed off today is the nuisance and notoriousness of muslims. They want.... Will NM do this? His supporters definitely think he will and NM has no right to put a doubt in the voters' mind. I understand that all these cannot be done in one single (full)term and the priority should be to root out congi first. But that doesn't mean he should alienate himself from what is expected from him.

Also, this election is just the entrance test of NM. His real test will be when he comes to power. The last NDA govt failed in this test. We will see how the great man performs in his real test.

This is an incomplete understanding of Narendra Modi. NM is clearly not the leader for you, at least when it comes to your personal expectations from him. His method and mindset has been on full display in Gujarat for years. He has not had to deny his identity to implement it. Rather his implementation has reaffirmed his identity.

Your generalization of Muslims is unfortunate and cannot be condoned. Narendra Modi himself will advise you to rinse your thoughts. Read Madhu Kishwar's recent account of NM reading and trying to understand the Koran, for instance. More power to him for having the guts to be himself. Whether the likes of you like it or not. Whether the likes of you continue to support him or not. The Togadias have fully deserved to be sidelined by NM. Time to move on.

I'm sure your laundry list for him will happen if/when he assumes a larger role nationally. But I'm not sure it will happen the way you currently think it should.

Absolutely agree with you Misra ji. From Kapil's post, he makes it seem as if Muslims are the cause of all terrorism and communal hate in India & present the most danger to our internal & external national security.

[member_20317]

^^^ survey sample is 10,772 voters.

And caste-consciousness is increasing with education and incomes. Never thought that could be the case.

Can any Kannadiga explain the mechanics.

[Lilo]

I'm bit late getting into the 'No Hindu Neta' remark from NM but would still point out my view.
......

This is a slippery slope and if Political leaders emerge that claim to represent their religion in preference to rest - the community will go to dogs (watch the below video frm 15:00 to next few minutes). If some one wants exclusive representation for his or her group in preference to other communities they can always find one in the religious leaders of religious groups which claim to represent those groups (Sants , Babas , religious groups, Pirs , Gurus etc) .

[youtube]YqYqYvWjOZE&hl=en_US&start=880[/youtube]

[RajeshA]

Your generalization of Muslims is unfortunate and cannot be condoned. Narendra Modi himself will advise you to rinse your thoughts. Read Madhu Kishwar's recent account of NM reading and trying to understand the Koran, for instance.

Just a little kanphoosed! What exactly should one try to understand in Koran?

[RajeshA]

Some Humor

Published on Apr 26, 2013
By Anand Walunjkar
When Mrs Modika Patel and Mrs Nitishree Kumari met in a shopping mall: the Unreal Times

[panduranghari]

In an exclusive interview with TIMES NOW, Shiv Sena Chief Uddhav Thackeray says that he is open to supporting LK Advani in the PM's race - http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4426232.cms

PS - just watched the interview ... the headline is a little misleading. Uddhav was fairly guarded. Although Saamna editorials have been against Modi it seems he is now hedging his bets.

IMHO Raj is a dynamic figure and a way should be found to get him on board.

Inside news is the 2 will fight elections together. The fact that Thane was lost in 2009 to congress acted like a real wake up call for Raj and Uddhav. All the noise before is just to distract the current lot of NCP-Congress from this. I happen to be in to know.

[Misra]

Your generalization of Muslims is unfortunate and cannot be condoned. Narendra Modi himself will advise you to rinse your thoughts. Read Madhu Kishwar's recent account of NM reading and trying to understand the Koran, for instance.

Just a little kanphoosed! What exactly should one try to understand in Koran?

That, to me, is now a misreading of Rajiv Malhotra.

The kind of debate that will assist in an "evolved" version of Islam to resume taking shape in India will happen only if a critical mass of Indians are aware of their differences. Narendra Modi's development for all strategy is only the first step in creating the conditions necessary for that debate to take off peacefully. Thus far the divide-and-rule politics has come in the way. Perhaps you don't see anything worth understanding in the Koran. Perhaps NM does. Who are we to dictate to him what to read and what not?

[Gus]

Apparently just because I support him, he has to be exactly as I demand of him and nothing else.

[RajeshA]

Perhaps you don't see anything worth understanding in the Koran. Perhaps NM does. Who are we to dictate to him what to read and what not?

Yes, you are right! Who are we to even speculate on what he understood after reading it?!

[manju]

^^^ survey sample is 10,772 voters.

And caste-consciousness is increasing with education and incomes. Never thought that could be the case.

Can any Kannadiga explain the mechanics.

I am not sure about the results of that survey. It says only 4% in Bellary are caste conscious. I have no reason to believe it is any different from its neighbors.

[Muppalla]

I request to take away Islam/Qoran discussion to some other relevant thread. Thx.

[kapilrdave]

This is an incomplete understanding of Narendra Modi. NM is clearly not the leader for you, at least when it comes to your personal expectations from him. His method and mindset has been on full display in Gujarat for years. He has not had to deny his identity to implement it. Rather his implementation has reaffirmed his identity.

Apart from the bolded part what you are saying is actually true. In his rule in GJ he has done favors (albeit silently) to muslims but never for Hindus. That is what worries me more when he says I'm not a Hindu Neta. And that is why I said that his real test will begin when he comes to power. Everyone knows that NM is popular for his Hindutva and all expect him to be strict on the issues that I mentioned in my post. That is not my personal expectation. Regarding him being my leader, well he is my leader for many obvious things. I follow Sankuji's mantra, if gold in not available, buy silver . I have no doubt that he is no less than platinum as far as rest of the things goes, but I somehow doubt of him being gold when it comes to dealing with jihadis. The VHP and RSS fellows will know what I'm talking about here.

Your generalization of Muslims is unfortunate and cannot be condoned. Narendra Modi himself will advise you to rinse your thoughts.

Ha ha. The BRF has also become 'secular' where you cannot freely express your views without being labelled as communal. I don't mind that. BTW I will quote myself again for you. Please read it again and say what exactly have I said that is wrong.

But what people are pissed off today is the nuisance and notoriousness of muslims. They want bangladeshis to go out, they want muslim rioters to be dealt with ruthlessness, they want muslim terrorists to be arrested without fear of pissing their community, they want protection of Hindus in Pak, they want Kashmiri Pandits to go back to their place again and more. Will NM do this?

If you see I'm specifically talking about the notorious muslims and not all of them. If you think that criteria covers all muslims then it is you who is generalizing muslims not me .

Read Madhu Kishwar's recent account of NM reading and trying to understand the Koran, for instance. More power to him for having the guts to be himself. Whether the likes of you like it or not. Whether the likes of you continue to support him or not. The Togadias have fully deserved to be sidelined by NM. Time to move on.

Please don't get me started on MK's report. While most of the things she reports about betterment of muslims by NM is true, I must say she was not serious in finding out the real reason behind absence of communal riots after 2002. Or her findings were too sensitive to be published. In contrast to the reality, she portrays VHP workers as blood thirsty wolves who live only to hunt down muslims, NM realized this and hunted down the wolves hence the permanent peace . That is nothing but ridiculous. Ask any damn Gujju to buy this assessment, you will get your answer . The fundamental problem in her research was that she interviewed only muslims. Even the police officer was muslim. Ideally she should have also interviewed the Hindus who were involved/effected/witnessed the riots.

The Togadias have fully deserved to be sidelined by NM. Time to move on.

Sir, Togadia has the guts to speak publically against jihad and muslim appeasement. How many public figure you know has this guts? There are 1000s of oveisis for only one Togadiya in India. I don't necessarily support all his views but you have to dismiss many other before you dismiss Togadiya.

I'm sure your laundry list for him will happen if/when he assumes a larger role nationally. But I'm not sure it will happen the way you currently think it should.

I just want him to not to succumb to the temptation of being 'true' secular and not act in the good of the Bharat.

[harbans]

Actually i am always wary what copy of the Koran is handed over for reading to a leader of influence like Modi. I know one Prof who was handed a copy of the Koran and he always claimed it was really a nice document. There are many 'sanitized' versions full of peace and love where the war verses are mellowed to be meaningless. Remember these are translations. So yes one indeed has to be wary what kind of translation is being handed over. Personally, I have made it a point to verify multiple versions of the same stanza/ verse before forming an opinion. Indeed i would be very wary of leaders being handed a custom copy..

[Klaus]

Dawood's translated Qur'an is one of the recommended ones, within academic circles. Although, I would hazard a guess that even this work comes with its fair share of biases (including any bias within the person pushing through such a recommendation).

Apologies for the OT. Could continue in Nukkad.

[prahaar]

Harbansji, do you really think that NM who has been a pracharak for multiple decades would not have had any first hand interactions/experiences? Like all humans, he may/does have his weak points, but not knowing the situation on ground about Hindu-Muslim relations is not very likely (but only God and Modi knows the reality).

[Virendra]

Harbans ji is just being genuinely worried as a well wisher

[member_20317]

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/

Is this good enough. I use this one. But not being native to it, I am not certain about it.

[harbans]

Ravi Ji, i also use the uscedu site for reference.

According to Die Welt, German authorities view the Koran project, which fundamentalists are using a recruiting tool, as a “most worrisome” campaign for radical Islam. Security analysts say the campaign is also a public-relations gimmick intended to persuade Germans that the Salafists are transparent and “citizen friendly.”

In an effort to improve their image, the Salafists have removed from their “information booths” all literature about the role of women in Islam or the supremacy of Islamic Sharia law over democracy. Moreover, the German translation of the Koran has edited out many of the verses which call on Muslims to make war on non-believers. According to BfV, the German domestic intelligence agency, the German version of the Koran is “rather non-controversial.” (Most English versions have been sanitized as well)

List of sanitized versions of the Koran

A more Sanitized Quran

PS: I know many people Hindu right, people who culturally have abhored Muslims. Many were rooting for the RJB issue. I know some of them today say all religions preach the same. Some even claim having read the Koran. Many great Hindu leaders have been given a copy of the Koran. Why even Ramakrishna Paramhansa extolled the HK IIRC. The salafists want 25 million 'sanitized' versions of the HK distributed in Germany. The problem of santized and lulling versions is a danger. That is why as a cautionary note i am always worried if someone takes a sanitized version and starts to think maybe the interpretations are incorrect and we can after all get together. We have no idea if suddenly a RJB leaders love for Jinnah etc is due to maybe a 'sanitized' version of the same handed some time back which he read through at leisure. That is what i think happened even to the Dutch Right wing person who recently converted to Islam. He kept claiming he read the Koran and found nothing wrong, that it is being interpreted wrongly etc..there is no harm to acknowledge that indeed there is a massive information rather 'misinformation' battle on. Lets be careful and warn others to be extra careful of these sanitized versions.

[Pranav]

Why even Ramakrishna Paramhansa extolled the HK IIRC.

I believe there is a dispute regarding the historical authenticity of Ramakrishna Paramhansa's alleged statements regarding Islam. There is one authoritative biography of Ramakrishna, which is by Mahendra Nath Gupta (Master Mahasaya), and that does not relate any incident of any vision of Muhammad, as far as I know.

[Pranav]

deleted

[Neela]

The problem of alienating hard core Hindu voters is always there. But you cannot get into power with them alone. And without power you cannot raise a finger.
So Modi has to do what he has to do - get a large vote base. And that started after 2002.
I doubt if NM would have been able to "clean up" GJ without basic humint. I am willing to bet that GJ police have a very large informer base from both hindus and muslims. Once you have that in place, you basically are nipping lot of stuff in the bud. And this probably also explains why no further untoward instances have taken place. The CONs are a master at stoking this stuff. So he has done an excellent job. That is the first step he seems to have done.
NM seems to channel people's energies in the right direction i.e. work, jobs, development and entrepreneurship. This is the second step he did.
And then pro-actively listen to all communities in GJ / make himself accessible to all - this way grievances do not become grudges. And this is the third step he seems to have done.
Fourth - anyone found guilty is treated by law with the same force as anyone else. The recent verdicts seemed to have confirmed that.

With all that extra energy subdued, people go about doing their work. And that is what seemed to have happened in GJ. And everyone votes for him. The larger picture he has for Islam is hard to tell. But remember, he often cites from our past and knows our history and heritage. So when he instills this pride in our past, he is indirectly strengthening the belief in hinduism. The EJ and Islamic vultures prey on the weak and poor. Remove that and it becomes a lot harder.

A long way to go but I think there is someone who seems to have made a step in the right direction. Oh ...and you are going to have the problem of Islamic jihad either large scale or small scale anyway - it is here to stay. And I doubt if anyone , klet alone Modi, can do anything to completely wipe it out.

[RamaY]

By going deep in the heart of congress-system NM is doing two things
1. He is naming the names and calling the die-nasty's deshdroh, cutting the roots of congree-system
2. By making Congress an untouchable, he is forcing the periphery sub-systems of congress-system to get out of the alliance and go alone.

interesting times ahead if his strategy works as expected...

[disha]

... So when he instills this pride in our past, he is indirectly strengthening the belief in hinduism. The EJ and Islamic vultures prey on the weak and poor. Remove that and it becomes a lot harder. ..

When one follows Raj Dharma, all EJ/Islamic fundamentals get rooted locally., since there is more local at stake to save then some faraway land.

A long way to go but I think there is someone who seems to have made a step in the right direction. Oh ...and you are going to have the problem of Islamic jihad either large scale or small scale anyway - it is here to stay. And I doubt if anyone , klet alone Modi, can do anything to completely wipe it out.

+1. As you said, it is here to stay. Why then worry about wiping it out now. Use that to innoculate people.

And as Narayana guru said, learn english to counter the englishman in his own language, learn Koran to counter the fundoo mullah. If somebody says "Jihad", bring in the concept of "Itjehad" - that is a jihad against the vices within oneself. Leave alone ordinary folks, the mullahs themselves go through a severe churn and the more fundoo they become, the more they expose themselves.

Modi knows his way forward, and he is a 3 time CM and has achieved much already. We wish him to achieve more for our own interests., reminds me that the flea on a barking dog feels powerful - sometimes we are like that flea. So let the Modi Juggernaut continue.

Here are my two expectations from him:

1. Become so important that US has to eat crow (US is already preparing itself to eat crow).
2. Become PM so CongIs eat crow.

Other than that rest is gravy.

[member_20317]

Why would NM focus on voters who he knows have no choice? For or against hardly matters.

If somebody is willing to understand that NM comes squarely from within the fold, how does it become difficult to accept that his statement comes from his track record. Ain't that track record upheld as the anti-thesis of what is being hurled at him as an excuse.

Could somebody adduce the rationale for why he was wrong. Besides, I mean the perceived election need, which to my view falls towards the other side actually.

................

Thanks harbansji, also I would be grateful if you can advise which would be a more accurate translation. Something to cite from.

I basically never read up on Islam and Christianity.

[RajeshA]

We have heard NaMo speaking of "barah sau saal ki gulaami"! So he is clear about it that Islam would not be given the space to dominate India.

He has his ways of putting across his Hindutva views to the Hindus in a cryptic way. But as a national leader he would have to act as representative of all, regardless of their religious affiliation.

That is why I keep saying - Keep the two things separate - State-Citizen issues and Rashtra-Sabhyata issues.

[member_20317]

We have heard NaMo speaking of "barah sau saal ki gulaami"! So he is clear about it that Islam would not be given the space to dominate India.

Ah! is it something like the difference between killing AIT vs. establishing OIT.

[Atri]

IN short to mid-term, the hard core hindu types are not going to go anywhere but vote for NM and BJP. TINA.. So, in short to mid term, NM should not fixate on these for too long.

IN long term (10-15 years hence), alternative will start evolving rapidly and that is when BJP might have to do a major course correction in order to stay relevant.

[VikramS]

I am personally distressed at some of the thoughts I am hearing.

EJs/Islamists succeed because they have money. PERIOD.

If the INC had not succeeded in keeping India wretched, the basic pride which people feel with their ancestors would not be lost.

If NaMo can help end the wretchedness, Dharma will win.

The questions about whether he is becoming less saffron are pretty much meaningless.

The battle is for the Dharmics in the middle, not the Dharmics on the right or the non-Dharmics.

A significant number of those middle Dharmics have been trained to be "think secular". Namo has to appeal to those.

And if and when NaMo comes to power I want him to focus on development and not get hijacked in pursuing some aggressive Hinduvta agenda.

If the core Hinduvta vote wants or expects him to pander to aggressive Hinduvta then they are smoking something potent. His track-record in Gujarat suggests that his focus is on governance and that is where it should be.

I dont know if this is a paid-media article but it is not inspiring...
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/in-ba ... e/1109057/

And Atriji:
Dont count your chickens before they hatch.
Right now I am not even sure that the egg will be laid

[RajeshA]

We have heard NaMo speaking of "barah sau saal ki gulaami"! So he is clear about it that Islam would not be given the space to dominate India.

Ah! is it something like the difference between killing AIT vs. establishing OIT.

Good point ravi_g!

If one doesn't kill AIT, then it would simply coexist with OIT as two different theories. Some would go by AIT. Others would go by OIT. And there is going to remain a big gulf between the two.

Translating that to the current issue, one cannot have Hindutva without finishing off Nehruvian Secularism.

Our degeneration started - first came the Islamists, then came the British, and came Nehruvian-Murkhta! If we want to get back to where we were earlier, we would have to retrace our steps back, the same way we came to this situation.

First we need to finish off the Nehru-Gandhi legacy, the C-System. Then regaining our civilizational might viz-a-viz the West - military, economic, technology. Then comes dealing with the gorilla, or is it an elephant! Of course, preparations for the next phase can begin in the phase itself, but we should now in what sequence we have to deal with it.

In the meantime, in this phase, Malsi simply needs to be contained as much as possible. Some day when the blind men would try to determine what they are touching, all the parts of the Malsi would all be separated.

[Atri]

And Atriji:
Dont count your chickens before they hatch.
Right now I am not even sure that the egg will be laid

Do not get me started on this again, Bandhu.. gakakkad bhai has already frowned upon me..

[RamaY]

IN short to mid-term, the hard core hindu types are not going to go anywhere but vote for NM and BJP. TINA.. So, in short to mid term, NM should not fixate on these for too long.

IN long term (10-15 years hence), alternative will start evolving rapidly and that is when BJP might have to do a major course correction in order to stay relevant.

Atri ji

we discussed this before.

NM is and will be the leader from government. In that capacity he will be the leader/ruler of entire Bharat including its religious minorities. There is no confusion/contradiction in his statement.

The benefits Hindus get from NM are
- He will not practice fake/pseudo secularism
- He will not undermine Hindu interests for minority vote-bank politics
- He will not undermine Hindu cultural/civilizational interests
- He will not let minority appeasement to become a shackle on Hindu necks
- He will assert Hindu civilizational ethos of Bharat proudly and consciously
- He will make Bharat display its Hindu identity proudly

What NM cannot do for Hindus
- He cannot build Ram Temple in Ayodhya single-handedly. It will have to be a separate movement that uses sama/dana/bheda/dandopaya to get this objective achieved.
- He cannot change constitution to make Bharat a Hindu rashtra or something similar. It will have to be a separate movement to give him/others absolute majority and also a call for rewriting of national constitution.


Given the fact that Hindu interests are == Indian Interests anything NM achieves in the interests of Indian interests would be a value addition to Hindu interests, especially given the fact that he doesn't hide and in fact is proud of his Hindu identity.

[ShauryaT]

If the core Hinduvta vote wants or expects him to pander to aggressive Hinduvta then they are smoking something potent. His track-record in Gujarat suggests that his focus is on governance and that is where it should be.

+1.

Also, I have noticed a pattern. Leaders who are immersed in the teachings of the BG usually do not go down the pandering of ethno centric Hindutva messages. NM is one such, who knows the BG on his lips.

[Sanku]

Atri-ji one clip is awaiting your feedback in your ekhat account.