BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 Mar 2011 10:23

Insteaf of fast marching, it can be slow marching with patriotic songs of both Bangladesh and India in rememberence to the Mitrobahini force.

Maybe both forces can also hold a joint "burning the Paki flag" once in a while?

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 15 Mar 2011 04:09

Six Naxals shot dead in Bihar encounter

Six Naxalites were killed and eight others were arrested after an encounter with security forces in Darmaha village in Bihar’s east Champaran district in the wee hours on Monday.

The over 12-hour-long encounter ended at 4 a.m. on Monday, Director General of Police (DGP) Neelmani said.

The bodies of all the six Naxalites have been recovered and eight ultras, including three women, have been arrested.

Security forces have also recovered 14 weapons comprising five SLRs, eight police rifles and one .315 rifle, besides explosives and ammunition from the spot, the DGP said.

A search operation was going on at the encounter site, Mr. Neelmani said.

The security forces were led by the Inspector General of Police (IG), Operations, CRF Assistant Commandant, two STF DSPs and other police officials in the operation against the Naxalites.

God Speed, hopefully they eliminate many more "regional" heads as well!!

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 15 Mar 2011 04:50

Successful operations are led by senior officers while failed ones are lead by pandus and assistant commandants.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 15 Mar 2011 05:08

half baked assessment is it not?

It was a "PANDU" who stopped Kasab, so before making suggestions like that, maybe you outta rethink the resources one have available on hand? With proper Intel, comms & Co-ordination one can achieve massive amount of success if executed thoroughly, regardless of who leads the charge! More often than norm, in India it is always a "senior officer" who leads a charge, so according to your comment, if one were to kill the senior officer the rest of the team is as good as dead?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 15 Mar 2011 06:41

^^^ May be you didnt get the sarcasm in my post, it is analogous to success has many fathers but failure is an orphan. So if an operation fails you ahve all and sundry saying our plans were not followed and if it is successful the pandu and asst. commandant dont get any credit

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 Mar 2011 08:54

8 BSF jawans killed, 8 injured in ambush by suspected militants in Assam

Eight jawans of the Border Security Force (BSF) were killed and eight others injured, several critically, when suspected militants ambushed a BSF vehicle in Ultapani forest in Assam's Kokrajhar district on Monday night.

Police suspect that the BSF team was ambushed by militants of the Ranjan Daimary faction of the National Democratic Front of Boroland (NDFB). No outfit had, however, claimed responsibility for the incident so far.

Police said that the BSF team was ambushed when returning to the base camp at Ultapani, near the India-Bhutan border, and fired at. While three BSF jawans were killed on the spot, five jawans succumbed to their injuries in the hospital and eight were still recuperating.

The BSF team was a few kilometres from their camp when the militants, who were hiding in the jungle on both sides of the road, opened fire indiscriminately, catching the jawans by surprise.

Big hit for the BSF!!

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 15 Mar 2011 10:24

suryag wrote:Successful operations are led by senior officers while failed ones are lead by pandus and assistant commandants.

+1 to this

. As they say "Victory is a ********, while defeat is an orphan".

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 15 Mar 2011 11:28

Whats going on in Assam? Blast in Congress Party office, attack on BSF party... something seems to be brewing...

And whats up with the headlines? 8 Killed, and 8 Injured, and the attack was by "suspected militants"? I dont understand. Isnt somebody who carries out a violent terrorist attack a "confirmed militant"? Or are we still debating whether it was actually university professors, or the Nurses Union chapter which carried out the attack?

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 19 Mar 2011 20:06

For whom the woods weep

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 20 Mar 2011 08:02

ASPuar wrote:Whats going on in Assam?

Multiple things. There are peace talks between one faction of ULFA led by Rajkhowa and GoI. The other faction led by Poresh Borua is remote controlling one set of blasts against Tarun Gogoi and the INC party for successfully forcing Rajkhowa & co. to crash land. This peace talks are supposedly honorable with even the PM meeting Rajkhowa & co.

Then there are "peace talks" between one faction of the NDFB and the GoI. From what it looks like, this set of peace talks is what would be called "open your mouth, force it in" types. There is no honor involved and the Bodos seem to be openly complaining of not getting the same treatment as Assamese. The blasts have been engineered by the anti-talks faction and is grossly meant as vengeance for the lack of honor in the parleys. Even the now-disbanded BLT and the Bodo Development Territorial Autonomous Council seems to be openly mouthing the honor bit.

Then there is an election season underway. Thus there is unavoidable political violence between one camp of AIUDF led by Maulana Badruddin Ajmal and the J-e-I (which has sided with the INC camp led by Rockybull Hussain). In fact, this is elite-Muslim politics in India played out in Assam. The Ajmal camp is in control by siding with the uncle camp (of the family fiefdom in J-e-I) over the de-rostering of Vastanvi. On top of this, there is the AGP which wants to usurp power from the INC and is playing big dada in different constituencies across Assam. AGP split with BJP and is trying to stitch some post-election alliance with AIUDF. The increase in Muslim population (who now are around 30%) due to illegal immigration is creating many voices of the Muslim community, not all belonging to the nationalist stream of thought (quite a few belong to the pan-ummah club). The Barak Valley where the Muslim % has grown very high is a significant example of this behavior.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 20 Mar 2011 10:42

sum wrote:8 BSF jawans killed, 8 injured in ambush by suspected militants in Assam

Big hit for the BSF!!

IDSA article says it was due to forgetting standard procedure.

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 24 Mar 2011 09:15

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/oth ... epage=true

The operation began in the early hours of March 11 when about 350 heavily armed troopers marched into the forests of Dantewada. They returned to their barracks five days later, with three villages aflame, about 300 homes and granaries incinerated, three villagers and three soldiers dead, and three women sexually assaulted, the victims and several eyewitnesses told The Hindu.

Last week, the Chhattisgarh police said three Koya commandos were killed in a Maoist ambush during a routine search, yet journalists attempting to reach the site were turned away by gun-toting special police officers. On visiting the area through a forest route, this correspondent was confronted by the aftermath of what appeared to be an attack by security forces on three tribal settlements in a 15-km radius of the police camp at Chintalnar, which has left hundreds homeless and brutalised.

very very sad incident if it is true......

i dont know when our government realize the tears of common people in our country...

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Mar 2011 09:19

The 3-3-3 statistics sound a little suspicious.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Mar 2011 15:10

the BSF has apparently placed an order for 34,500 of beretta MX4 Storm Carbine
http://www.armimunizioni.it/uploadfile/news2/4.jpg
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... es/page322
News from IDEX. The contract was signed February 14th, and announced in UAE during military fairs. Deliveries are expected in next 12 months. The Beretta Mx4 Storm is submachine gun based on semi-automatic Beretta Cx4 Storm carbine, with shorter 312-mm and full-auto fire capability. It should replace the 1A1 and 1A2 Carbines (licence British Sterling SMGs) in the BSF hands.

and NSG for unknown number of barret98b firing 0.338 lapua magnum round (this would supplement the PSG1/MSG90 already in service)
http://www.barrett.net/firearms/model98b/

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 24 Mar 2011 15:44

Wheres all the

from the pro DRDO product lobby? Where are all the accusations that all senior BSF officers are in the pay of Unkill, and traipsing with Susannas?

Why is the INSAS not good enough? Why is the Tavor, which can be produced domestically, not good enough? What is going on?

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 24 Mar 2011 16:38

^^^
I think it is perception because more corruption cases have come up against the army than BSF.Hence people get this feeling.Diesel to water, Milk, arms you just name it....

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 24 Mar 2011 17:44

kvraghav wrote:^^^
I think it is perception because more corruption cases have come up against the army than BSF.Hence people get this feeling.Diesel to water, Milk, arms you just name it....

I am sure that you mean to say that Army has "acted" on more corruption cases and showed greater "transparency" in dealing with them than any other organization?

Think if a serving IG or a senior IAS officer was actively hunted down by his own organization! Not very good for morale I guess. But look at the nerve of Army folks..not only do they go after their own serving and Retired Generals, they have the nerve to openly declare it.

I guess in that way IA is really insensitive towards "people's feelings". Other organizations care much more about that. The cases are buried and no action are taken. And the people feel all good and nice...no? Better to not know and feel good..right?

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 24 Mar 2011 19:04

In that way, the politicians also go behind their own kind (A Raja) and others.So they are also better?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 24 Mar 2011 20:26

kvraghav wrote:In that way, the politicians also go behind their own kind (A Raja) and others.So they are also better?

First of all, "politics" is no one organization. Different parties will go after rival politicians for some political benefit or another. Or do you mean to say that politicians expose the corruption of his/her own political party...and that too without any desire to gain any benefit from it?

But I don't think you are as naive as you are showing yourself to be. Surely you know well enough how A Raja got exposed and how his allies initially tried their best to weasel him out of it. Surely, you do not need to be told of the support he enjoyed from his party in this case?

And you say that all this is the same as the Armed Forces where their internal mechanism catch the majority of black sheep and punish them? I will be the first to admit that all is not well with IA, but you have to give credit where its due.

Anyways, this is starting to get OT.

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 24 Mar 2011 21:14

^^^
Are you suggesting that the BSF are more corrupt than the army but do not punish/publish the corrupt but the army does that promptly?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 24 Mar 2011 21:32

kvraghav wrote:^^^
Are you suggesting that the BSF are more corrupt than the army but do not punish/publish the corrupt but the army does that promptly?

Please continue to twist my words anyhow you like and divert attention from your original statement. You are obviously an untiring force. But I give up.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 24 Mar 2011 22:21

kvraghav wrote:^^^
Are you suggesting that the BSF are more corrupt than the army but do not punish/publish the corrupt but the army does that promptly?

By corollary, are you suggesting that the Army is "more corrupt" than the IPS cadre which has led the BSF since its inception, simply because youve read a few news reports? Really? Im pretty sure I can also find SEVERAL news reports about IPS officers misdeeds, but far fewer about punishment handed out.

Or perhaps you were not aware that "the BSF" is led at all senior posts, by IPS officers. There are no ADG's from the BSF. There are no so called "Special DGs" from the BSF. There are no DGs from the BSF. All decisions are made by IPS and MHA.

I make no assumptions about the BSF as an org. It is a fine organisation. However, the Army DOES punish its defaulters very severely, and the Police IS known to sweep any dirt about IPS officers, under the carpet, if they know which side their bread is buttered on.

35000 rifles is not a small number. It is equipment for nearly one in nearly every five or six BSF troopers. How is this a small purchase? It is a major shift!

But enough irrelevant diversions from the main issue. The real question is, why is BSF under the radar switching to a foreign made rifle, when Indian options exist? Lets not confuse the issue. What is the justification for this purchase? Will our resident DRDO experts not tell us? By now they would have been baying for the blood of the General Staff on the Army threads. Why do I hear only crickets and silence here? Could it be, because our army bashers on BR have a (GASP

) one point Army bashing agenda?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 24 Mar 2011 22:49

We are not surprised about such shitty decisions - just like a hazaar police decisions - yes it needs to be overturned - unless they can explain how nothing available in India suits the task

If you want parity - will give you parity.

Yeah we are army bashers onleee and you are the sacred messiah who is all that stands between the army and us

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 24 Mar 2011 22:58

Dont get so cheesed off. Im not claiming to be any sort of messiah, nor does the Army need me to be their messiah. The Army is a gargantuan edifice, and neither your opinion nor mine matters a fig to it.

I was simply asking why the army gets all your love, and others decisions are simply overlooked? Be honest. If this was the army doing the buying, Im pretty sure you guys would have flipped out.

And yes, I think that this decision by the MHA is wrong. It needs to be justified, not just in terms of why we are buying this foreign eqpt, but even in terms of compatibility with defence eqpt, considering the BSF is placed under MoD command in times of war.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 24 Mar 2011 23:26

As mentioned buying of foreign equipment by manu police and CPMF in these days of money is to be checked

I have even questioned the Mah police's willingness to pay German nationals to train them but not pay our retired SF

We have not criticized the Army for Tavor - because it makes sense

but for pistols and other stuff yeah

So we are selective

- only hollering when it is correct

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 25 Mar 2011 03:35

Raja Bose wrote:The 3-3-3 statistics sound a little suspicious.

The article is by Aman Sethi, a known maoist propagandoo artist from the hindu. He has written N pieces on Binayak Sen's indictment, 99.99% anti-Chattisgarh government. Most likely, the article is embellished with bells and whistles made of cow-dung.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Mar 2011 05:36

hmm...figures. Anytime there are well-rounded figures quoted in such statistics - a skill mastered by our madrassa math professors in Pakistan, it is almost guaranteed that the person quoting it is pulling it out of their collective musharrafs.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 25 Mar 2011 14:33

In the first place, why would such slander be permitted to be printed? Are the editors of the Hindu utterly unconcerned by the possibility of a tort action?

Secondly, why are the BSF not vigorously denying this article? Or are they denying, but noone is printing?

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 25 Mar 2011 14:53

Hey guys, lets not jump to conclusions. This incident should be investigated by a third party. If this turns out to be a false article, then the Hindu can be indited but remember, it was the Media that allowed the world to see the travesty of the My Lai Massacre, and if this incident does prove to be true, the ones involved should be given punishments as close to Penal Code 302 as possible and the same for the article writer if his article is proven false.

We do not want a repeat of the 80's in Punjab when the Gov. isolated itself from the Sikh masses. I mean this would not even be vengeance, but cold blooded murder.

But lets hope for the best, and give our prayers to the innocent souls and the guilty be stricken with hammer of justice.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 26 Mar 2011 03:54

For the paramilitary, all’s in a new name

P. Chidambaram has decided that five central paramilitary forces (CPMFs) will now be officially called central armed police forces (CAPFs), the move prompted by the need to remove the impression, especially among foreign leaders and rights representatives, that the troops are part of India’s military.

The Border Security Force (BSF), Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), Central Industrial Security Force (CISF), Indo Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) and the Sashastra Seema Bal (SSB) will now be described uniformly as CAPFs.

“Henceforth, in all references to the forces mentioned above, a uniform nomenclature of central armed police forces (CAPFs) shall be adopted,” said a circular issued by Chidambaram’s home ministry. The change takes effect immediately.

At present, government officials and documents use terms such as central police organisations (CPOs), CPMFs, paramilitary forces (PMFs) and central police forces (CPFs) interchangeably.
...
..
A big concern, however, is unwanted international glare. In some countries, “paramilitary” refers to militant groups while in others, it is perceived to be related to the military, officials said.
...
..

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Mar 2011 18:52

Indian Coast Guard commissions coast guard station Ratnagiri

One more station at Dahanu has been planned for establishment in the State of Maharashtra in the current year. In addition, setting up of a Coast Guard Air Station at Ratnagiri is also on the anvil.

Two Interceptor boats, C-150 and C-151 will join the Coast Guard fleet on Monday when Vice Admiral Anil Chopra, Director General Indian Coast Guard commissions the vessels at BTP Jetty, Kochi Port.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Mar 2011 12:31

Indian Coast guard inducts two Interceptor boats C-150 and C-151, to base in Vizhinjam

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 29 Mar 2011 05:43

putnanja wrote:For the paramilitary, all’s in a new name
P. Chidambaram has decided that five central paramilitary forces (CPMFs) will now be officially called central armed police forces (CAPFs), the move prompted by the need to remove the impression, especially among foreign leaders and rights representatives, that the troops are part of India’s military.

Good, this has long been overdue.

Another term that is a pet-peeve for me is "Junior Commissioned Officers" ~ those gentlemen are usually senior in service term and age to most field-grade officers, can't they come up with a special term for such ranks? The most logical would be Command Warrant Officers (CWOs), to differentiate them from other Warant Officers who don't hold command.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 29 Mar 2011 14:28

? Why would they be "Command Warrant Officers"? What "Command" are they WO's to? The term JCO was a post independence rework of "Viceroys Commissioned Officers", as opposed to "Kings Commissioned Indian Officers". The Indian Air Force has Warrant Officers. The Indian Navy has Petty Officers.

They are Junior Commissioned Officers, because they are junior in rank to regular commissioned officers. In terms of equivalence, they are equivalent to Group B officers of the Central Govt. In terms of Pay Scale, Subedar Majors are equivalent to DSP's in some state police forces.

As compared to police and CAPF's, the equivalence in the JCO arena is as follows:

1. Sub Maj (Army) = No Equivalent/ DSP in state police service (Only if in Class II service)
2. Subedar (Army) = Inspector (CAPF)
3. Nb Sub (Army) = Sub Inspector (CAPF)
4. Havildar (Army) = Assistant Sub Inspector (CAPF)

The army men wear one rank badge lower than the police men (for the same rank), because in the 1950s, police forces "upgraded" their rank badges, though the Govt didnt accord them equivalent status to go with the new shiny bits.

Therefore, no army JCO wears three stars, even though in police they do. But Subedars are equivalent in status to an Inspector in the Police or CAPF.

As for length of service, this is a specious argument. Using this argument, State police officers have MUCH more service than IPS, but they are junior members of "Subordinate Police Service". Same with State Civil Service officers vis a vis IAS.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 29 Mar 2011 15:10

News media showing a Punjab Police SWAT team deployed outside the SAS Nagar stadium for the semifinal match.

The guys are wearing white sweat shirts with light brown-dark brown camo. They've done a 3 month deployment in Israel getting up to speed with things. They are armed with MP-9s, AKMs, & what looked like UZIs.

The guys definitely look menacing with guns pointed to the ground and confident G.I. Joe like expressions.

There will be 48,000 police and security personnel to be deployed in the intezam for the match. Isn't this more than the stadium's capacity lesser than this number?

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 29 Mar 2011 15:55

ASPuar wrote:? Why would they be "Command Warrant Officers"? What "Command" are they WO's to? The term JCO was a post independence rework of "Viceroys Commissioned Officers", as opposed to "Kings Commissioned Indian Officers". The Indian Air Force has Warrant Officers. The Indian Navy has Petty Officers.

They are Junior Commissioned Officers, because they are junior in rank to regular commissioned officers. In terms of equivalence, they are equivalent to Group B officers of the Central Govt. In terms of Pay Scale, Subedar Majors are equivalent to DSP's in some state police forces.

I just made up the term CWOs; anything other than the JCOs; whatever makes sense to you.

The Command referred to the fact that currently JCOs can hold platoon, or even company, commands; normal WOs generally don't hold command, they are senior specialists or simply very senior NCOs who have had their ranks normalized.

If they are in a different career-track, why call them "junior" at all? The words have certain modern meanings. See the case of the word "paramilitary" above; whatever it may have meant before, nowadays it conjures up the idea of a private or shady-government militia. The later is obviously more sensitive to international PR, so it has been changed, others - less subtle, but quite damaging - need to be changed as well.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 29 Mar 2011 16:52

I have NEVER heard of a JCO commanding a company, in a peacetime establishment.

They are called Junior Commissioned Officers, because they hold a commission, they are officers (they hold certain responsibilities as such), and they have the rank and priviliges of their post. But they are different from regular commissioned officers.

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 29 Mar 2011 17:01

Gagan wrote:News media showing a Punjab Police SWAT team deployed outside the SAS Nagar stadium for the semifinal match.

The guys are wearing white sweat shirts with light brown-dark brown camo. They've done a 3 month deployment in Israel getting up to speed with things. They are armed with MP-9s, AKMs, & what looked like UZIs.

The guys definitely look menacing with guns pointed to the ground and confident G.I. Joe like expressions.

There will be 48,000 police and security personnel to be deployed in the intezam for the match. Isn't this more than the stadium's capacity lesser than this number?

you are talking about these guys and guns i guess. i have posted more pics in military pic thread.

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 29 Mar 2011 17:40

ASPuar wrote:? .....<Snip> In terms of equivalence, they are equivalent to Group B officers of the Central Govt. In terms of Pay Scale, Subedar Majors are equivalent to DSP's in some state police forces.

As compared to police and CAPF's, the equivalence in the JCO arena is as follows:

1. Sub Maj (Army) = No Equivalent/ DSP in state police service (Only if in Class II service)

The army men wear one rank badge lower than the police men (for the same rank), because in the 1950s, police forces "upgraded" their rank badges, though the Govt didnt accord them equivalent status to go with the new shiny bits.

Therefore, no army JCO wears three stars, even though in police they do. But Subedars are equivalent in status to an Inspector in the Police or CAPF.

As for length of service, this is a specious argument. Using this argument, State police officers have MUCH more service than IPS, but they are junior members of "Subordinate Police Service". Same with State Civil Service officers vis a vis IAS.

ASPuar ji I've some doubts. Not to challenge what you have said, but to my knowledge this might not be correct

Subedar Majors are equivalent to DSP's in some state police forces

DSPs are generally promoted state police service officers, with 3 stars or in some cases an Ashoka emblem as ranks with service lengths above 20 years. They fall under Group A state service non IPS (Some of them eventually get promoted to IPS cadre too)

Subedar Majors can at best be equated to Circle Inspectors, who are Group B officers in State service who have SHOs/SIs under them.

But Subedars are equivalent in status to an Inspector in the Police or CAPF.

My understanding was Subedar = SI. Subedar Major = Circle Inspector

Lt/Capt = DSP

Maj/Lt. Col = SP/SSP

Col/Brig = DIGP

Maj Gen. = IGP/DDGP (based on seniority)

Lt Gen = DGP

Can you kindly explain. I think this might help many. or should I take it to the newbie thread?

munna · Post by **munna** » 29 Mar 2011 18:26

Those guys are our shiney new Punjab Police SSG (Special Security Group), trained by Israeli experts in close quarter protection and high value target protection. These guys are up there with finest in physical fitness and skills.