The IAF History Thread

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Dec 2009 09:35

Raja Bose wrote: If you wish I can always send it to you via snail mail as long as you promise to send back a pic of it in your home (hopefully co-located with his other memorablia) for my records.

Let this wait for just a bit. I am still in the process of collecting some stuff - with Suresh's daugther being otherwise busy having shifted home after getting married. It needs to be photographed with the Vir Chakra and perhaps his log book - which I have not yet got hold of.

I need to be careful about the promises I am making - I have promised Admiral Dawson to digitize his old 78 RPM records

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 01 Dec 2009 09:45

Aditya G wrote:

For records I believe the deepest ever strike by PAF was attack on Agra, which a 750 km as crow flies is however much less than Karachi Bombay distance. In 1984 the PAF was still flying B-57s

http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/display/12 ... 147.49.jpg

Actually Karachi - Bombay is 870km, greater than the Sargodha Agra. But thats beside the point, because the IAF actually mounted raids from Pune to Karachi using its Canberras - which was a distance of 1000+ km. But then most of the flight was over our territory, so IAF could use the Hi-Lo-Hi method. The PAF would have had to spend a bulk of its flight time over indian airspace to get to Bombay, and if they went in Lo, they would be at the extreme range of their striking power.

The PAF staged its Agra raids from Shorkot (680km) but then it could muster only a two aircraft sent in single ac strikes. Night raids are difficult to intercept, but they are also difficult for the attacking crew to make any impact. Thus inspite of the easy landmarks, the taj shining as a beacon in the moonlight, the Agra raid didnt achieve much.

Even in 84, only the B-57s had the night bombing capability (navigation by night, bombing computer), the Mirages would have had to use their eyeball mk1 to locate and strike at the dome. good luck doing that by night. especially when you have an SA-2 installation watching over Trombay right across the bay. (Did i mention the AA guns?)

Doing that by daytime, you run the guantlet along Jamnagar as well as Pune.

I am not sayin the PAF cannot muster a bombing force - but that its an incredibly risky thing for them to do , with the chances of success being very low.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 Dec 2009 10:45

shiv wrote:It needs to be photographed with the Vir Chakra and perhaps his log book - which I have not yet got hold of.

I need to be careful about the promises I am making - I have promised Admiral Dawson to digitize his old 78 RPM records

That would be great.

Whenever you are ready to receive, let me know.

PS: Don't make promises to Admirals (or any IN old salt for that matter) that you may not be able to keep....I learnt it the hard way!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 01 Dec 2009 23:27

Jagan wrote: Actually Karachi - Bombay is 870km, greater than the Sargodha Agra. But thats beside the point, because the IAF actually mounted raids from Pune to Karachi using its Canberras - which was a distance of 1000+ km. But then most of the flight was over our territory, so IAF could use the Hi-Lo-Hi method. The PAF would have had to spend a bulk of its flight time over indian airspace to get to Bombay, and if they went in Lo, they would be at the extreme range of their striking power...................

Add to it the location of the facility behind the Trombay Hill. One has to come high from a distance to locate and accurately target the reactor. Other approach is turn inland and come from the JNPT directon. Not a sweet thought for attacking strike leader.

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 02 Dec 2009 11:47

Jagan wrote:
Aditya G wrote:

Even in 84, only the B-57s had the night bombing capability (navigation by night, bombing computer), the Mirages would have had to use their eyeball mk1 to locate and strike at the dome. good luck doing that by night. especially when you have an SA-2 installation watching over Trombay right across the bay. (Did i mention the AA guns?)

Is that a SA-3 battery that I can barely make out there, in the SA-2 location?

The AA gun batteries in Worli, Colaba and the airport would also provide cover for BARC, against a/c coming in from the west. As Rohit has mentioned, the only realistic approach to target BARC is from the East, over land, and that would bring it even closer to Pune!

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 03 Dec 2009 14:13

jagan, however if the planes came with a 1 way ticket only, then degree of difficulty is reduced ??.... maybe ditch the planes somewhere in the sea and get picked by friendlies....

Indrajit · Post by **Indrajit** » 03 Dec 2009 15:24

That's a very good point Manjgu,the same applies to a Naval commando type raid on BARC Trombay by SSG(Naval Element)of PA.With lesser effort they can do a substantial damage to our assets.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 05 Dec 2009 07:43

manjgu wrote:jagan, however if the planes came with a 1 way ticket only, then degree of difficulty is reduced ??.... maybe ditch the planes somewhere in the sea and get picked by friendlies....

For the Pakistanis to come to that juncture - of planning one way missions - things have to get real bad. I somehow think they wouldnt waste aircraft and pilots trying to bomb Trombay . they will have other targets to worry about (And so will we)

But this stuff belongs to the Military Scenarios thread - not here.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Dec 2009 08:33

Jagan, i think we are talking about possibility of Pakistani riposte in 1984 had we bombed their n facility .... this 1 way ticket is within the realm of possibility. and a N plant is not some routine target ...

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 05 Dec 2009 08:40

manjgu wrote:Jagan, i think we are talking about possibility of Pakistani riposte in 1984 had we bombed their n facility .... this 1 way ticket is within the realm of possibility. and a N plant is not some routine target ...

If we had hit them first (in 1984), it is only reasonable to expect that we woudl have deployed all our resources against an expected retaliatory strike. There would have been no element of surprise for the Pakistanis. Additionally 1984 was not an era of PGMs (yet in the subcontinent). You can send a whole squadron on a one way mission and yet have no guarantee of destroying the target with the dumb bombs.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Dec 2009 07:35

Nice video about IAF's Kargil ops. Sorry if already posted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu5gzo_wXko&NR=1

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 07 Dec 2009 15:54

one of the TV channels ( X) is screening the Battle of Longelwal documenary... nice viewing... interviews with Atma singh ( AOP) , Mini Bawa, Das, Sherwin Tully, Sanga ( AOP) .. things were quite scary as per mini bawa... sanga saw Suresh's hunter hit the sand and pop up to live another day.... !!

Gen khambata tells Mini bawa , that army cant ensure safety of Jaisalmer Air base and if he wants he can vacate the air base !! so they wait till dawn to send the first air partol ( das + gosain) to see extent of paki intrusion... heck i would have sent a jeep with a radio in the night itself to check the extent of paki intrusion ( on the highway from jaisalmer to ramgarh) ... or maybe even a camel / horse on a good canter would have been much better ?? anyway....

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Dec 2009 02:26

Maj. Gen. Sukhwant Singh has some choice words for Maj. Gen Khambatta in his book "India's Wars Since Independence"

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 08 Dec 2009 05:14

manjgu wrote:one of the TV channels ( X) is screening the Battle of Longelwal documenary... nice viewing... interviews with Atma singh ( AOP) , Mini Bawa, Das, Sherwin Tully, Sanga ( AOP) .. things were quite scary as per mini bawa... sanga saw Suresh's hunter hit the sand and pop up to live another day.... !!
?? anyway....

Is this the Time-Frame production - Hunters at Dawn?

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 08 Dec 2009 08:16

jagan, i am not sure since i could not see it from the begining but its produced by some cowasjee ( credits came at the end)..... should be that one ...

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 08 Dec 2009 08:17

manjgu wrote:jagan, i am not sure since i could not see it from the begining but its produced by some cowasjee ( credits came at the end)..... should be that one ...

yes same documentary. Film by Rohan Cowasjee. Nicely done documentary

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 08 Dec 2009 11:16

it was screened multiple no of times on the same channel....

i saw it from the moment Mini bawa is complaining that jaisalmer AF base was in total mess when he came there.... sand inside the blast pens etc..

the interviews were very interesting, though the visuals ( atleast in the portion i saw was not so interesting...). though i liked the jaisalmer fort from the sky

))

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 08 Dec 2009 11:45

just got a interesting tidbit on longewal ... what saved longewal / india on that night was a barbed wire....!! the troops had erected a barbed wire fence to hang their laundry in front of their positions.... the napaki tank commanders mistook this to be the begining of a mine field and showed reluctance to cross it... there was hesitation on part of the napakis ... the slope to the post was very gradual and emimently suited for an assualt.... there was some shooting between the tanks and the RCL guns ... and then came dawn to the rescue of the the troops..

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Dec 2009 15:29

A bit OT in the IAF History thread but related to the Longewala Battle: The PA assault was a complete mess as far as logistics were concerned. The tanks had serious problems wrt the spares and many did break down. No clarity on what to do at higher level. PAF not invoved/bother to be involved in the whole affair.

One link is here: http://www.defencejournal.com/feb-mar99/letter.htm

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 08 Dec 2009 21:31

Hi Jagan,

Was there ever and agreement between India and Pakistan on preventing the basing of fighter/military aircraft in J&K? I vaguely recall reading such an assertion in Pakistani media, but cannot seem to find any quote at the moment.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 09 Dec 2009 00:11

manjgu wrote:it was screened multiple no of times on the same channel....

i saw it from the moment Mini bawa is complaining that jaisalmer AF base was in total mess when he came there.... sand inside the blast pens etc..

the interviews were very interesting, though the visuals ( atleast in the portion i saw was not so interesting...). though i liked the jaisalmer fort from the sky ))

yes, a bit dissappointing in terms of war time footage etc. but priceless in terms of first person accounts.

Aditya,

I believe there was a UN brokered agreement not to base fighters in J and K. India chucked it out after the 65 war. No doubt driven by the fact that Srinagar and Jammu were target for PAF raids.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 14 Dec 2009 20:45

http://www.idsa.in/system/files/strateg ... n_0903.pdf

The 1962 India-China War and Kargil 1999:
Restrictions on the Use of Air Power

R. Sukumaran

Abstract

The paper examines the utilisation of air power in the 1962 India-
China war and in the 1999 Kargil conflict. The study reveals a certain
continuity in the attitudes to the use of offensive air power in limited
conflicts. Both in 1962 and in 1999, the use of air power was hedged
about with various restrictions. Underlying these appears to be the
belief that the use of offensive air power is fundamentally escalatory.
Hence there is a hesitation to commit offensive air power assets.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 Dec 2009 17:14

AoA

Scans from Vayu

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 18 Dec 2009 05:16

Nayak wrote:AoA

Scans from Vayu

Wow, that photo of the Red Scorchers MiG-21 is worth its weight in gold

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Dec 2009 01:00

Jagan wrote: Wow, that photo of the Red Scorchers MiG-21 is worth its weight in gold

Jagan, we now have explanation for the source/history of this Mig-21bis photo in the Mig-21bis gallery:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... s.jpg.html

I think, we can now add some more details to the caption of the above photo.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Dec 2009 01:12

good catch rohit, and thanks nayak !

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Dec 2009 01:20

Rahul M wrote:good catch rohit, and thanks nayak !

You're welcome. But I think the real credit goes to Nayakullah.....that photo on Mig-21bis page had troubled me a bit..I had tried to find the source but could not (wanted a clearer pic for wallpaper and color printout)....for an AF that is notoriously shy of PR and any experimenting with color schemes like western AFs (display/demo purpose like the ones appearing in RIAT,UK)......that was indeed a great and extravagant color choice...

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 19 Dec 2009 05:26

Rohitvats , rahul.

The scheme of the bis is different. no circles around the nose on the Vayu pic. though both look similar. (Actually now I am not even sure if it is really a Bis,or an M.. the pic is just too blurry

I had circulated the vayu pic among a couple of friends - now there is a dispute whether the vayu pic is actually of the red scorchers. as per them, this is a more recent pic from the 80s and not the red scorchers era. besides, we have some pics of the red scorchers and their scheme was different.

Scorchers or not, the scheme seen in the vayu pic is certainly unique and lovely

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 19 Dec 2009 06:00

Aditya G wrote:Hi Jagan,

Was there ever and agreement between India and Pakistan on preventing the basing of fighter/military aircraft in J&K? I vaguely recall reading such an assertion in Pakistani media, but cannot seem to find any quote at the moment.

Yes there was such an agreement to not base jets in the valley. You can read it in PC Lal's book.
I do not have the book close at hand to give a precise page number.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 22 Dec 2009 10:33

The relevant parts of PC Lal's book, appear on pg. 135, 2nd ed. He quotes a report of Wg Cmdr. Jog,
and Flt. Lts Sinha and Rathor. ".... But there were no fighters and bombers in J&K, because
of the Cease Fire agreement, neither the Army nor Air Force were to increase their strength
in J&K. India honoured that agreement maybe foolishly........."
This report appears in the section dealing with IAF operations in 1965.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 22 Dec 2009 22:23

vsunder wrote:The relevant parts of PC Lal's book, appear on pg. 135, 2nd ed. He quotes a report of Wg Cmdr. Jog,
and Flt. Lts Sinha and Rathor. ".... But there were no fighters and bombers in J&K, because
of the Cease Fire agreement, neither the Army nor Air Force were to increase their strength
in J&K. India honoured that agreement maybe foolishly........."
This report appears in the section dealing with IAF operations in 1965.

Thanks for following up!

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 23 Dec 2009 00:16

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_vi ... ir_1326350

Vintage aerial bombs recovered from Jammu and Kashmir
ANI
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 14:43 IST

Poonch: Two bombs dropped during India's war with Pakistan in the 1960s and 1970s were recovered in Jammu and Kashmir's Poonch district on Monday.

Villagers accidentally discovered the bombs.

Police cordoned off the area and said experts would be called in to look into the issue.

"As soon as the news reached us the army and the police party cordoned off the area. And as we have observed these are rusted bombs. We gather that they are not artillery shells; they seem to be air droppings. What is the source, they are from the war of 1965 or 1971, and their age can only be determined after the expert examination. Expert team will come and subsequently, dispose them off. We are waiting for the team," said Manmoon Singh, senior superintendent of police, Poonch.

Indian army's bomb disposal squad was expected to reach the area and defuse the bombs.

India fought two wars, one in 1965 against China and the other in 1971 against Pakistan, which led to the birth of Bangladesh.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Dec 2009 00:21

^^^

India fought two wars, one in 1965 against China and the other in 1971 against Pakistan, which led to the birth of Bangladesh.

it makes me proud to see how well informed our journalists are.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 23 Dec 2009 01:06

Rahul M wrote:^^^
India fought two wars, one in 1965 against China and the other in 1971 against Pakistan, which led to the birth of Bangladesh.
it makes me proud to see how well informed our journalists are.

Not to ignore the "two wars" count

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 27 Dec 2009 09:12

tip of the hat to Suman sharma for this bit of Info.

Air Marshal Minhi Bawa has written a book "Fatal Embrace : Air Battle over Longewala 1971" which was launched recently on Dec 16th by the Air Chief.

A release and a photograph of the launch appears here

http://www.pib.nic.in/release/phsmall.asp?phid=26272

http://pib.nic.in/photo/2009/Dec/l2009121626272.jpg

No details on the publisher or the cost, ordering particulars yet.

arun · Post by **arun** » 18 Jan 2010 16:59

X Posted. Article larded with some interesting bits of trivia about MI - 26 helicopter operations in the IAF:

IAF MI-26 attains 100% serviceability status

Punjab Newsline Network
Friday, 15 January 2010

CHANDIGARH: After more than a decade Mi-26, the largest helicopter in the world, possessed by IAF and being operated from this Chandigarh base have attained 100 cent serviceability and flown all together for more than 45 min over the bright sun shined city sky here.

Speaking on the occasion Air Cmde Rajeev Sachdeva , AOC 12 Wing expressed his satisfaction and stated that this is achieved because of most efficient planning .Last such serviceability status was held during the year 1996. ………………

The helicopter has distinguished itself by undertaking a total of 16 live Underslung operations in the high mountain reaches of J&K (at times under enemy shelling), the plains of central India and the seas of Kutch. As a part of sustaining our troops they operate to the Ladakh sector. While doing so it has achieved the sole distinction of landing a MI–26 at Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO) and other high altitude airfields carrying wheeled vehicles, field guns (Medium), Heavy – duty generators, mobile Satcom stations and Bulldozers. MI-26 is the only helicopter in its class, which has carried the Bofors gun. On 09 Sep 86 the MI-26 landed at the world’s highest landing zone (DBO), and in the following weeks the MI-26 air landed a one tonner, a jonga, prefabricated huts, petrol and supplies. Thus the unit achieved the feat of landing the first ever-tracked vehicles at Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO).

In Feb 89, MI-26 helicopter undertook the only of its kind underslung operation taking Pontoon bridge form Ludhiana to Sirhind canal. In Apr 96, two helicopters proceeded on their first overseas flight to Konotop. It took the helicopters 39 hrs of flying and 09 night halts to achieve this task flawlessly. While doing so the unit for the first time flew the longest ever formation flight (4.45Hrs) over high seas.

In Jul 02 the MI-26 recovered the first civilian aircraft (Beach Craft), which had met with an accident at Kangra airfield. Another first was achieved as the unit flew the longest ever underslung flight (3:15 hrs). Subsequently in the coming months the unit recovered a MI-35, MI-17 and a MIG-21 to Pathankot, Srinagar and Ambala respectively from their crash sites. …………………………………..

Punjab News Line

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 18 Jan 2010 22:32

Thus the unit achieved the feat of landing the first ever-tracked vehicles at Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO).

BMP-2? Thats the only tracked vehicle in our inventory thats light enough

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 23 Jan 2010 23:57

http://pib.nic.in/release/phsmall.asp?phid=26789
http://pib.nic.in/release/phsmall.asp?phid=26788

Air Chief Marshal O P Mehra's Autobiography - Memories Sweet and Sour have been released recently. Center for Air Power Studies have published them through Knowlege World.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 22 Feb 2010 04:11

Is this true?

http://www.spsaviation.net/story_issue.asp?Article=419

Sino-Indian Conflict, November 1962—The Chinese declare a unilateral ceasefire after occupying large tracts of territory in the North East Frontier Agency. But in withdrawal, they leave a large number of wounded Indian soldiers who have to be heli-lifted from Tawang to Tezpur. Air Force Station Tezpur has newly inducted Mi-4s but hardly any trained pilots. The lone Flight Commander is down with raging fever but his is a life saving mission. He takes with him a brand new pilot officer (Plt Offr) posted to the collocated Toofani fighter squadron who has not even touched the flying controls of a helicopter, leave alone fly it. With super-Herculean effort he lifts the chopper past the ‘transition’, hands over the controls to the young Plt Offr, “Fly it like a conventional fixed wing aircraft and take me to Tawang”. “Yes sir. But where is Tawang?” queries the Plt Offr. Looking at his now half-conscious captain, he knows there will be no answer. Gingerly picking up a million-map from the floor of the cockpit, he orientates himself and map-reads his way to Tawang. The 45-minute journey in a state of feverish slumber rejuvenates the ailing captain to a degree that he manages to land without any mishap at the high-altitude helipad. Mi-4 can take only nine passengers. But the line is long and time-criticality for evacuation is such that 18 seriously wounded soldiers come aboard. The overloaded Mi-4 is incapable of a hover take-off from that altitude. The captain lines up at the far end of the helipad, opens full power and sprints down the slope, flinging the heavily laden chopper into the yawning gap below. The plunge helps the chopper quickly pick up safe flying speed, preventing it from crashing into the valley floor (a ski-jump in reverse!). Evacuation is successful.

The MI-4 used in the mission—with its in¬credible, unprecedented overload—belonged to No. 109 HU (Helicopter Unit) of the Indian Air Force (IAF) which had been thrust into ac¬tion right from the moment of its birth, when in 1962 the Sino-Indian war broke out. The helicopter in question was one of the two-aircraft detach¬ment that the unit maintained at Tezpur under Eastern Air Command, which served extensively in casualty evacua¬tion and logistics missions in and around Tawang, Sela and Bomdila areas of North-East Frontier Agency, later Arunachal Pradesh. As is evident from the above narration, the fledgling unit had received the helicopters ex-USSR and it was still trying to build up its pilots’ strength.

....

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 22 Feb 2010 04:19

Aditya G wrote:Is this true?

http://www.spsaviation.net/story_issue.asp?Article=419

Hey, Air Marshal Jimmy Bhatia wrote it - I would never question it. Has to be true

Added Later:

This is what it says at the end of the article

Note: The Pilot Officer in the above narration was the author
himself, based at Tezpur on his first operational posting
after commissioning.