Bharat Rakshak

Posted: **05 Nov 2009 15:33**

Israel tension begins again http://www.world-check.com/articles/200 ... justment-/

Posted: **08 Nov 2009 21:04**

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1126594.html

Concerns are growing in Israel's government over the possibility of a unilateral Palestinian declaration of independence within the 1967 borders, a move which could potentially be recognized by the United Nations Security Council.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu recently asked the administration of U.S. President Barack Obama to veto any such proposal, after reports reached Jerusalem of support for such a declaration from major European Union countries, and apparently also certain U.S. officials.

The reports indicated that Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad has reached a secret understanding with the Obama administration over U.S. recognition of an independent Palestinian state. Such recognition would likely transform any Israeli presence across the Green Line, even in Jerusalem, into an illegal incursion to which the Palestinians would be entitled to engage in measures of self-defense.

Posted: **19 Nov 2009 09:45**

{Couldn't think of better thread to post this. Feel free to move it if mods think so}

AAR session on Judaisms & Hinduisms

One of the most sensational papers at the American Academy of Religion
conference in Montreal was Shana Sippy's on Hindu-Jewish religious rapprochement
as a corollary of Indian-Israeli military cooperation. After the collapse of the
Soviet Union, Narasimha Rao (r.1991-96) lost no time in establishing diplomatic
relations with Israel (1992) and, more importantly, replacing the USSR with
Israel as India's chief arms supplier. Between India and Israel, weapons have
long replaced diamonds as the most important trade good.

She presented a commercial film shown by the Israeli arms dealers at trade
fairs. Daringly crystal-clear. Indian girls were dancing in between upstanding
missiles and singing: "I need protection, I need strength" etc. Then a
stereotypical Israeli guy hops onto the stage, with a broad smile, gracefully
receiving the compliments of the Indian girls: "Safety and protection, security
and perfection" etc. The Israelis reportedly congratulate themselves at having
"won the Kargil war for India" by sending India weapons tailored to the specific
challenges of the Paki occupation of peak terrain.

Then she focused on joint Hindu-Jewish initiatives in the USA and
internationally. She acknowledged the strength of this alliance, though clearly
begrudging the Hindu community the benefits of any alliance. She tried to muster
reasons why Jews should refrain from this alliance: these are not just Hindus
but the "Hindu Right"; these are the people who have issued a history textbook
praising Hitler (a canard, thoroughly analysed and refuted in the first chapter
of my book *Return of the Swastika*); Hindus are idolaters; at least Jews should
have demanded that Hindus guarantee the religious rights of the many thousands
of Jews who visit India annually (are these rights threatened?!); as a minority,
Jews should side with the minorities in India, etc. Her understanding was the
Jews purposely ignore a lot of troubling facts or take them in stride because
this alliance is politically so useful to them. On the Hindu side, meanwhile,
she saw (quite correctly) an absolute ignorance of specific Jewish agendas.

The joint Hindu-Jewish declaration, earlier this year in Jerusalemn, between
Swami Dayananda Saraswati, the chief Ashkenazi Rabbi and some more worthies on
both sides, was a natural target of her criticism. She lambasted some of the
points the two sides had agreed on, obviously at the Hindu side's insistence:
* the much-maligned swastika is innocent (banal);
* the Aryan Invasion Theory is bunk (totally misplaced, and strange that the
Jewish side bothered to agree, but perhaps a way of saying that the
much-maligned term "Aryan" is innocent too);
* Hinduism is monotheistic too (questionable, an imposition by a particular
faction within the Hindu spectrum);
* Hindu murtipuja is not "idolatry" per Halakhic definition;
* the opposition to the Christian mission, which according to SS is no longer an
issue for the Jews (nearly true in Israel in so far as Christian denominations
have agreed to stop conversion attempts among Jews, but unchangingly a concern
elsewhere when intermarriage mostly means conversion to Christianity or Islam);
* the obviously anti-Islamic rejection of "terrorism".

An orthodox Jewish member of the audience remarked that the meeting would have
been impossible without a preliminary agreement between the Rabbi and the
Israeli Government. The Israelis are not uptight about separating religion and
politics, so this is quite likely. Shana Sippy alleged that the Jerusalem
meeting had been sponsored by Rajiv Malhotra, whom she mislabelled as a Hindutva
man. After all those years of Hindutva-watching, most supposed experts haven't
even noticed the sharp divisions in the spectrum of Hindu activism.

On the whole, though, I was very impressed with Shana Sippy's presentation. No
silly pieties, not too much holy/hollow indignation at Hindutva schemes, not as
soporific as so much theological and sociological talks at such conferences, her
finger really on the pulse of the Yahudi-Hindu-bhai-bhai scene, and most of all,
a truly important and consequential topic.

During the discussion, I learned that this annual panel on "Hinduisms and
Judaisms" was from the beginning mistrusted by the AAR, initially because it
looked like a joint Hindu-Jewish platform against Christianity, now because it
looks like a gang-up against Islam. There is no substance to this, every speaker
went out of his way to placate Islam, absolve it of any role in terrorism, and
to lambast "Islamophobia" both in India and in the West. Perhaps on
Christianity some Jews have taken a firm stand, but certainly not on the "Hindu"
side. In the three years I have attended these sessions, I have never heard a
Hindu or an Indologist take as his own any known pro-Hindu (i.c. anti-mission)
positions. In this session too, Hindu asertiveness was only present as the
whipping-boy.

Kind regards,

Koenraad Elst

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavag ... ssage/5415

Can someone who knows the email contact of Shana Sippy kindly forward
the following self-explanatory email to her? Thanks, Rajiv

To: Shana Sippy

It has come to my attention that at the AAR Conference this month, you
made the statement that I sponsored the Hindu-Jewish meet in
Jerusalem. This is a false statement for which i hold you liable and
request that you send out a retraction. I have NEVER sponsored any
Hindu-Jewish meeting, though I attended (not sponsored) a prior one in
delhi. I have never visited Israel in my life though i would like to
one day. It amazes me that political ideology allows so-called
scholars to avoid hard facts and say whatever fits their ideological
positions. Your Columbia Univ. mentor Jack Hawley is up to some sly
mischief against Hinduism, conflating Hinduism with Hindutva, and
hence by association calling every Hindu asserting his identity a
Hindutva agent. While it is probably too late in his career to raise
his level of rigor, it would be a good idea for any young scholar to
apply higher standards of scholarship when drawing consclusions.

In accordance with the requirements of due diligence and fair debate,
I request that you please send me any evidence you have in support of
your claim.

Hoping to hear from you.

Sincerely,

Rajiv Malhotra

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hinducivi ... sage/41746

Posted: **19 Nov 2009 12:18**

^^

Shanna Sippy's bio

Posted: **21 Nov 2009 17:58**

‘Mossad’ active in India too: Palestine Ambassador

Posted: **21 Nov 2009 22:19**

what is wrong with that they are not acting against India , they are acting agant some Jihadist which perfectly fine

Posted: **22 Nov 2009 00:12**

Ananya wrote:what is wrong with that they are not acting against India , they are acting agant some Jihadist which perfectly fine

absolutely not fine, unless they operate with explicit knowledge and permission of GOI and its agencies. do you think if the reverse happened israel, or any other govt for that matter would have allowed R&AW to operate in that country ?

this is exactly how we landed in trouble with the KGB.

Posted: **22 Nov 2009 00:22**

I second that. How do we know that Mossad is not handling information about India to CIA ? People dont realise that during cold war, the intelligence agency which had good success in penetrating Indian political and military circles is KGB because people thought they were our allies and no one made any issue of it like they did for CIA.

Posted: **22 Nov 2009 00:45**

shyamd wrote:‘Mossad’ active in India too: Palestine Ambassador

This is the ambassador of the islamic republic of palestine. He's probably also stated before that Mossad was responsible for 9/11, 26/11, Ford Edsel, malfunctioning wardrobes, Jacko, Jackie-O,........ You get the drift.

Note: I am not saying that the Mossad may not have intelligence assets in India. If India is deemed important enough (it is logical for it to be so) by Israel, i'd bet my last shekel that Israel has such assets in India. Israel has such assets in the US as well as i am sure in Europe, and the various sundry islamic republics and dumb-$hit-stans. These assets are cultivated to benefit Israel, and should our interest match, help out India as well like sharing intel on terror outfits. And it would be completely fair for India to develop such assets in Israel too.

But relying on the word of the pali ambassador, come on!

Posted: **22 Nov 2009 12:56**

shyamd wrote:‘Mossad’ active in India too: Palestine Ambassador

Twocircles dot net is an islamic propaganda site, not to be taken seriously but helps to understand what and how the indian muslims think.

Posted: **22 Nov 2009 13:37**

anuj wrote:
shyamd wrote:‘Mossad’ active in India too: Palestine Ambassador
Twocircles dot net is an islamic propaganda site, not to be taken seriously but helps to understand what and how the indian muslims think.

Good to know, but the fact remains that Muslims in India are still allowed to think unlike in Israel.

Posted: **22 Nov 2009 17:19**

The thing is Mossad has a need more than ever to operate inside India, due to the attacks on Chabad house. They function with a bare skeleton of employees but they will use 100% jews (called Sayanim) who live in India to do their work too.

As long as they are working with GOI, its fine. But of course everyone knows thats not always the case (arms deals, influencing govt officials, LTTE support etc).

Posted: **22 Nov 2009 20:47**

there is a lot of activity from Israel in Gujarat officially.... and the IB and RAW more intrested in servring the intrest of the ruling class,

Posted: **22 Nov 2009 21:19**

Dhiman wrote: Good to know, but the fact remains that Muslims in India are still allowed to think unlike in Israel.

May I ask what you mean by this?
Avram

Posted: **22 Nov 2009 21:23**

asprinzl wrote:
Dhiman wrote: Good to know, but the fact remains that Muslims in India are still allowed to think unlike in Israel.
May I ask what you mean by this?
Avram

Same question

Posted: **22 Nov 2009 21:50**

asprinzl wrote:
Dhiman wrote: Good to know, but the fact remains that Muslims in India are still allowed to think unlike in Israel.
May I ask what you mean by this?
Avram

I agree. Inane comment. And the smiley makes it even worse because it will 400% likely become the prop used to do downhill skiing with.

Posted: **22 Nov 2009 22:06**

Btw very intersting article on Israel in Newsweek. India army can learn a thing or two. Anybody with subdcription blease to bost.

Posted: **23 Nov 2009 23:32**

Dhiman wrote:Good to know, but the fact remains that Muslims in India are still allowed to think unlike in Israel.

Have you counted the number of Arab members of the Knesset? Or looked at how many of them are openly critical of Israel?
Or how many Arab NGOs legally operate, agitating on behalf of Palestinians?

How much freedom of speech do you think Arabs have in Sudan? or Libya? or Saudi Arabia? or Egypt? or Syria? About the only thing you're free to speak about (with the exception of Egypt) is how awful Israel is.

Posted: **24 Nov 2009 00:13**

[quote="DhimanGood to know, but the fact remains that Muslims in India are still allowed to think unlike in Israel.

[/quote]

Muslims in India and Israel, at least you got the spirit of their existence in both countries right . Same spirit ought to be applied in any discussion about their domicile in any other civilized society. Consciously or subcosciously, all thinking people knows deep down that only way to recognize the problem is full fledged separation between Kuffar and Krafties.

Posted: **24 Nov 2009 10:56**

Prem wrote:[quote="Dhiman]Good to know, but the fact remains that Muslims in India are still allowed to think unlike in Israel.

Muslims in India and Israel, at least you got the spirit of their existence in both countries right . Same spirit ought to be applied in any discussion about their domicile in any other civilized society. Consciously or subcosciously, all thinking people knows deep down that only way to recognize the problem is full fledged separation between Kuffar and Krafties.[/quote][/quote]

If you bracket Israel and Pakistan, I would understand that because both are religious, fanatical, and inhumane states that either kick out people belonging to a particular religion and/or forcefully convert them. India on the other hand is neither a religious state, nor fanatical, and nor inhumane. We don't kick out people based on their religious affiliations, render them stateless, treat them as third-class citizens, or give free citizenship to non-citizens of particular religious groups to replace those who have been kicked out. Personally I find it offensive that any Indian would see some kind of a moral lesson out of what is going on in Israel. In fact what is going on in Israel is a lesson in what not to do.

Personally, I have absolutely zero interst in either Israeli or Pakistani views, however your views regarding some sort of a full-fledged separation are a complete antithesis to what India has been about over the last 60 years, what Indian freedom movement and partition was about, and infact what 10,000 years of Indian history has shown. Rest assured you know it as well as I do that your views are in extreme minority not just now but over the overall course of Indian history and highly offensive in many ways.

Posted: **24 Nov 2009 11:35**

asprinzl wrote:
Dhiman wrote: Good to know, but the fact remains that Muslims in India are still allowed to think unlike in Israel.
May I ask what you mean by this?
Avram

Avram,

I saw this post and chose to ignore it. Enough said. I'd advise other sane folks to do the same.
Shalom,

Shimon

Posted: **24 Nov 2009 11:39**

Dhiman wrote:

If you bracket Israel and Pakistan, I would understand that because both are religious, fanatical, and inhumane states that either kick out people belonging to a particular religion and/or forcefully convert them. India on the other hand is neither a religious state, nor fanatical, and nor inhumane. We don't kick out people based on their religious affiliations, render them stateless, treat them as third-class citizens, or give free citizenship to non-citizens of particular religious groups to replace those who have been kicked out. Personally I find it offensive that any Indian would see some kind of a moral lesson out of what is going on in Israel. In fact what is going on in Israel is a lesson in what not to do.
Personally, I have absolutely zero interst in either Israeli or Pakistani views, however your views regarding some sort of a full-fledged separation are a complete antithesis to what India has been about over the last 60 years, what Indian freedom movement and partition was about, and infact what 10,000 years of Indian history has shown. Rest assured you know it as well as I do that your views are in extreme minority not just now but over the overall course of Indian history and highly offensive in many ways.

Dhiman, Could you explain how Israel is forcefully converting people of other religions qnd how is it a inhuman state ? Is it because they are simply trying to survive in a cesspool of terrorists and crazy sheikh's who do nothing but fire rockets at Israel or blow themselves in public.
Lets not ride the moral horse here and sit on high moral pedestal and preach the world. If separation based upon religion was such a anti-thesis to Indian psyche, Wonder from where did 37 crore people on the left and right flank of India appeared.

Any statement which puts Israel and Bakistan in the same category loses its credibility and is no better than troll-ish behavior. What is that you find offensive about Indians drawing lessons from Israel ? They have faced unsurmountable odds for their existence in last 60 years and made sure that their enemies would never wipe them off the map. Thats one lesson for starters we should learn from them.
You have zero interest in Israeli or Pakistani view but when same Pakistani explode bombs and kill Indians (& now Jews too) all over the world, Their Views and thought process become important.

Posted: **24 Nov 2009 11:43**

VikasRaina wrote:
Dhiman, Could you explain how Israel is forcefully converting people of other religions qnd how is it a inhuman state ? .......

Thanks, but lets not feed such delusional behavior by responding to it. Nothing works better than ignoring such crass ignorance (or worse!).

Posted: **24 Nov 2009 12:25**

VikasRaina wrote: Lets not ride the moral horse here and sit on high moral pedestal and preach the world. If separation based upon religion was such a anti-thesis to Indian psyche, Wonder from where did 37 crore people on the left and right flank of India appeared.

I have no interest in preaching the word, but if someone tells me that we are supposed to draw some kind of moral lessons from Israel as to how to deal with our own minor social conflicts, I completely disagree with that and even find any thinking along those lines offensive. These guys have been in a virtual state of civil war ever since Israel came into being and India is nowhere near the same case.

With respect to your statement "where did 37 crore people on the left and right flank of India appeared", keep in mind that before Islam, Buddhism was the dominant religion of Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Bangadesh. Besides some anecdotal cases, Hindus have never converted en-masse to Islam (either through force or voluntarily). If you are asking me where did Buddhists come from, that is a separate topic. There were a large number of Buddhist in Indo-gangetic belt as well, when the Islamic invasions started Buddhists in indo-gangetic belt either converted to Islam or reverted back into Hinduism as a result today you have large number of Muslims in indo-gangetic belt.

Any statement which puts Israel and Bakistan in the same category loses its credibility and is no better than troll-ish behavior.

Incorrect, both are religious state and both were established primarily for members of a particular religion and that is one of the major source of problems in both cases. Irrespective of any modern (or western) notions of "separation of church and state", the concept that members of one religion (or one religion) has priority over other is exactly opposite of what Indian history and value system has shown.

They have faced unsurmountable odds for their existence in last 60 years and made sure that their enemies would never wipe them off the map. Thats one lesson for starters we should learn from them.

So you mean to tell me that Indians (or Hindus in particular) haven't faced insurmountable odds for existence. In fact, given that India is the only culture in world which has had complete cultural continuity, I think we have done a better job than anyone else and so I don't see any reason to change our age old survival and growth techniques as opposed to Israeli's who are embroiled in a non-ending quagmire ever since their existence.

You have zero interest in Israeli or Pakistani view but when same Pakistani explode bombs and kill Indians (& now Jews too) all over the world, Their Views and thought process become important.

Sure we can learn some of their security techniques as in how to reinforce a fence, etc, but I don't see any possibility of learning any lessons what-so-ever when it comes to deal with social issues, social conflicts, treatment of minorities, setting social policies, or anything related to society as a whole and specially not a second partition of either people, land, or resources.

Posted: **24 Nov 2009 12:26**

dhiman, you will save yourself a lot of embarrassment if you read up a little on the formation of the modern state of israel. at the moment your comments are simply dripping of ignorance on this issue.

I have absolutely zero interst in either Israeli or Pakistani views

don't mind me saying it but you also seem to have zero knowledge to go with it.

Posted: **24 Nov 2009 12:39**

Rahul M wrote:dhiman, you will save yourself a lot of embarrassment if you read up a little on the formation of the modern state of israel. at the moment your comments are simply dripping of ignorance on this issue.
I have absolutely zero interst in either Israeli or Pakistani views
don't mind me saying it but you also seem to have zero knowledge to go with it.

Oh well, I guess all the people with knowledge are busy fighting and keeping scores in mid-east of who kicked out who how many thousands or hundreds years ago how many times, so who am I to speak

Posted: **24 Nov 2009 13:14**

Sadler wrote:
VikasRaina wrote:
Dhiman, Could you explain how Israel is forcefully converting people of other religions qnd how is it a inhuman state ? .......
Thanks, but lets not feed such delusional behavior by responding to it. Nothing works better than ignoring such crass ignorance (or worse!).

Sadler, I have nothing against Dhiman, but statements which show ignorance (atleast from my POV) need to be challenged and rebutted. Letting folks do Israeli equal equal with Pakis or Hamas / Hezbollah terrorists does not help the cause of this battle against violence and terrorism.
It rather reinforces the myth that somehow rest of the world is responsible for events like 26/11 etc.

Posted: **24 Nov 2009 21:38**

Vikas,

Dhiman is a provocateur who is trolling on this thread.

He has now made two *utterly laughable* statements

- that Israel is forcibly converting people (he obviously has *no* idea how hard it is for even the most eager converts to be legally recognised as Jews in Israel)

- that there is no freedom of thought or speech for Arabs and Muslims in Israel.

Now perhaps thats just someone with lead-lined, x-ray proof blinkers on, but I doubt it. He has refused to answer for these claims when challenged.

Of course, if Dhiman proves us wrong and does actually have the guts or the brains to stand by his claims and hold them up to scrutiny this could be a very interesting thread.

Otherwise Sadler is right - troll stamp him.

Posted: **10 Dec 2009 07:43**

India, Israel to ramp up military ties

TNN 10 December 2009, 02:26am IST

NEW DELHI: India and Israel have decided to further bolster their already expansive military ties, especially in areas like joint R&D defence projects, counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing.

This came after visiting Israeli Defence Forces chief of general staff Lt-General Gabi Ashkenazi met national security advisor M K Narayanan, Army chief General Deepak Kapoor, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik and Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma on Wednesday. .....................

TOI

Posted: **10 Dec 2009 09:05**

Ashkenzai looks like a distant cousin of Dhermender, although not as handsome as Dhermender.

---

(Slightly old news but this is all I have to counter Dhiman.

)

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull

Amid a blossoming of Indian-Israeli defense relations, IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi embarked on five-day visit to the Far East on Sunday, touching down in the Indian capital of New Delhi, where he will meet with his Indian counterpart, Gen. Deepak Kapoor.

Posted: **10 Dec 2009 11:31**

EDITED.

Posted: **11 Dec 2009 11:35**

Rahulji,

I should have known. Bringing up Gabbar Singh would have pissed you off. It's amazing how I get warned from you every time I delve into Gabbar Singh or bring up Isreal or both. Just a simple observation.

Peace.

Posted: **11 Dec 2009 11:50**

Dhiman,

First of all I do not believe Israel is as bad as you are making it out to be. But let us assume for the argument's sake that Israel is bad. But one thing is clear and cannot be disputed - Israelis have been a good friend to India. They have always provided us with moral and diplomatic support in our hours or crisis.

So, the question you need to ask yourself is this:

Is this a wise thing to demonize a good friend who always stands by you in your hour of need?

My answer is no.

Posted: **11 Dec 2009 12:11**

Karan Dixit wrote:Dhiman,

First of all I do not believe Israel is as bad as you are making it out to be. But let us assume for the argument's sake that Israel is bad. But one thing is clear and cannot be disputed - Israelis have been a good friend to India. They have always provided us with moral and diplomatic support in our hours or crisis.

So, the question you need to ask yourself is this:

Is this a wise thing to demonize a good friend who always stands by you in your hour of need?

My answer is no.

Dixitji,

Do you want me to get banned

Posted: **11 Dec 2009 12:17**

Dhiman wrote:Do you want me to get banned

Stop this juvenile behavior. It is not necessary.

Posted: **11 Dec 2009 12:20**

anuj wrote:
Dhiman wrote:Do you want me to get banned
Stop this juvenile behavior. It is not necessary.

I asked a question in response to a direct query. What part of it did you find juvenile?

Posted: **11 Dec 2009 13:43**

Dhiman wrote: Do you want me to get banned

The question is, do you want to get banned? if you continue to behave in this manner then I will most certainly ban you without any second thoughts.
Take your gabbar singh humor with that smart-assed attitude elsewhere. Do not disrupt threads.

Posted: **11 Dec 2009 14:06**

archan wrote:
Dhiman wrote: Do you want me to get banned
The question is, do you want to get banned? if you continue to behave in this manner then I will most certainly ban you without any second thoughts.
Take your gabbar singh humor with that smart-assed attitude elsewhere. Do not disrupt threads.

Sir,

the issue here is not gabbar singh, its my view of indo-israeli relationship that is causing problem here. I am sure there would not have been any problems had I posted only those views that were found to be accepted by moderators. Feel free to ban without hesitation as you said and delete/edit this message, I am not sure I want to be in a forum or an environment where a persons views on a subject would be restricted to only those that are accepted by few in control.

Best Regards to you.

Posted: **11 Dec 2009 14:38**

Dhiman wrote:its my view of indo-israeli relationship that is causing problem here.

OWW... And he pulls out the "Im the victim" card.

Posted: **11 Dec 2009 15:25**

Excellent news about increased Indo-Israeli cooperation.Barak is just one acquisition and hopefully Barak-2 will also be a success.In fact,the IN suffered badly due to the failure of Trishul,which delayed certain ships,and of which the key promoter of that failed project was our former pres. Kalam!Some of those in the IN who prefered Barak to Trishul and stood their ground allegedly lost out in promotions I was told and another alleged casualty on that score was Adm.Bhagwat.
EW is a critical area which influences events on the battlefield as has been shown in all the recent wars and conflicts.The Israelis are experts on this score and their track record speaks for itself,the last time the attack on the alleged Syrian secret "nuclear" installation under construction.

However,one area where India for some reason ,despite its usual mouthed support for the Palestinian cause,is to quietly assist in bringing about better Israeli-Palestinian relations which are rapidly going even further downhill.The Palestinains want a better life than their pathetic existence and if the whole lot of them throw in their lot with Hamas it will be a total disaster.The moderates should be rewarded and here is an area where some aid and advice form India could make a small but significant difference.

Bharat Rakshak

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