Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

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somnath
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by somnath »

SSridhar wrote: There is a lot of truth in what Najam Sethi says. The world (read the US and its allies) believe that fighting the Al Qaeda and the 'bad' Taliban is the 'real fight against terrorism'. Of course, Ms. Clinton in her Gurgaon speech yesterday talks of a 'syndicate of terror outfits' in Pakistan, but I wonder how much of that 'syndicate' she will remember two years from now when the US operation would have come to an end in Afghanistan and a US/Pakistan-backed 'good' Taliban regime would have assumed power.
Things dont always work out to such neat plans, do they? The US prefers Ashraf Ghani, ex-finance minister, to become the next Prez in Afghanistan...Karzai on the other hand, has Fahim (surprise surprise, the same "warlord" he once ejected as a running mate!) and Karim Khalili as his runnign mates, and the team is favoured to win..No prizes for guessing which parties are supporting Karzai-Fahim-Khalili - India, Iran and Russia...If the US depends upon the "good Taliban takeover" for its exit - its going to be far tougher than they think..And if they are stupid enough to try a "regime change" of Karzai, they risk making enemies out of existing friends (Northern Alliance plus the legacy Pushtoon tribes) to make frieds out of current enemies, potential neutrals-turend-enemies-again (good Taliban)!

Russia is now giving the US a corridor for supplies into Afghanistan, is it conceivable that they would sit back and watch as the US lets the "good Taliban" take over? Or that India wont prod its old friends in the Panjshiri crowd to show its claws? Fahim's panjshiri militia is a far more potent tool than ANA even now, after a decade of the training of the ANA..

The good Taliban takeover followed by US withdrawal is the Paki strategic dream today, but seems very very unlikely..the US might still withdraw - the result will be another round of civil war, and this time the Northern Alliance would be far more potent, thansk to all the money they have made out of controlling the levers for 10 years...
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Anujan »

SSridhar wrote:Names of Benazir's killers will be announced in a few days
The killers of former prime minister Benazir Bhutto will be exposed and punished soon, said Political Secretary to the president Faisal Raza Abidi on Sunday.

“An independent inquiry into Benazir Bhutto’s assassination (by a United Nations Commission) has begun. People will know within days, not months, as to who killed her, and see them being brought to justice,” Abidi told reporters
Abidi is peddling BS. The UN Commission is expected to submit their report in December. On top of it they said clearly that they are not performing a criminal probe, but only going into the "various angles" and the "background" of the case (read it as an eyewash).
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by RajeshA »

Three possible scenarios by Talat Masood: Jang
It is however important to analyse where Pakistan would be heading in the next ten to fifteen years.
Scenario 2: the worst case

The second scenario is diametrically opposed to the previous one. Insurgencies continue to fester and military is unable, or unwilling, to contain the Taliban in FATA and NWFP. Consequently, these groups gradually spread further east and south, in the process taking control of most parts of FATA and NWFP, while dominating large parts of Balochistan and some parts of Punjab. Militant groups continue to play a significant role in the daily lives of Kashmiri’s and plan terrorist attacks in India, causing relations with India to deteriorate significantly. Indian and Pakistani forces are poised against each other and Pakistan concentrates bulk of its forces on the eastern border which facilitates Taliban to expand their area of influence.

The policies adopted by the government are oblivious to the ground realities. Rule of law and constitutionalism is abandoned and democratic institutions weaken. Social sector is neglected, poverty and socio-economic hardship are on the rise, and the service sector stagnates combined with a degenerating economy, rising militancy and poor leadership create serious crisis of governance and law and order.
Talat Masood seems to be a die-hard optimist. His worst case scenario is simply a rip-off the the current state of Pakistan. It doesn't consider the steady slide of Pakistan from a stable country in 2001 to the present. It has been one steady deterioration. If one extrapolates that deterioration over the next 15 years, one would come to quite a fascinating situation. One needs little imagination to know that the situation would go further downhill. However one would need some creativity to imagine how daily life would be in the Land of the Pure in the next 15 years.

Here are my scenarios for the Pakistanis:
Best case scenario:
  • Pakistanis have dissolved Pakistan and broke up the country into 9 parts: West Punjab, Seraikistan, Hindko, Sindhudesh, Balwaristan, West Kashmir, Pushtunistan, Baluchistan, Karachi, all following different destinies. Hindko, Balwaristan, West Kashmir, Baluchistan have decided to join the Indian Union. Sindhudesh & Karachi have made a confederation with India. Pakjab has signed a Peace & Security Treaty with India. Pushtunistan has joined with the Pushtun areas of Afghanistan.
  • All have decided to get rid of the Wahhabi streak of Islam and have decided to opt for Sufism and Indian Culture centric outlook.
  • Taliban tendencies have been restricted to Pushtun areas.
  • Pakjabis has purged its security forces of all Islamists. Pakjabi Security Force has now only two missions - protection of border against Taliban elements; and fighting all Islamists internally. Furthermore it has decided to demilitarize completely. Some have been inducted into RAW.
  • All have decided to lay more stress on social development like education, health, environment, water resource management, agriculture
  • India and other developed countries have decided to help the emerging states with technology and development.
  • Pre-Islamic history and Indian cultural heritage are encouraged from school level onwards. Nazariya-e-Pakistan, and Two-Nation-Theory have been consigned to the dustbin of history.
  • Teaching Islamic extremism is forbidden, and anybody doing that can be sentenced to death
  • All emerging states have some form of democracy
Worst-case Scenario:
The Elite lose all power to influence the situation. Pakistani Army has splintered along ethnic and sectarian lines. Central Govt. has collapsed. Extremist and criminal gangs take over. Everybody becomes more Islamic. Every group has its own fiefdom. There are daily street battles. Industry and Agriculture have totally broken down. There is hyper-inflation. The desertification of Pakistan has intensified. There is no power. There is wide-spread famine and water-shortage and no way to feed Pakistan's population of 250 million. No group can take over, establish supremacy and bring peace because of the meddling of outside powers like India, USA, Saudi Arabia, Iran and China. Extreme poverty takes over. Food riots everywhere. The daily death toll from violence is over 1500 dead. It is the beginning of getting even worse.

Nuanced Scenario:
The Taliban take over the country and there is a central power center, but lacking any expertise in governance and bad international relations, there is extreme poverty. Oil has run out and the Ummah has refused to help. Poppy crops have been sprayed with herbicidal agents, so that revenue stream has also died out. Pakistan has lost all industry or foreign investments. Remissions from diaspora have stopped flowing, as most have gotten their families to leave Pakistan. The elite has mostly escaped to UAE, UK, Canada. Agriculture is fickle and there is constant tension with Indians who have decided to divert all Indus River Basin rivers. All other sects than Wahabbi are being eliminated slowly but steadily.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Anujan »

Four policemen get their 72 in P'shawar

Police said about 10 attackers were hiding on both sides of the road and opened fire as the police van passed.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by somnath »

RajeshA wrote: Here are my scenarios for the Pakistanis:
Best case scenario:
  • Pakistanis have dissolved Pakistan and broke up the country into 9 parts: West Punjab, Seraikistan, Hindko, Sindhudesh, Balwaristan, West Kashmir, Pushtunistan, Baluchistan, Karachi, all following different destinies. Hindko, Balwaristan, West Kashmir, Baluchistan have decided to join the Indian Union. Sindhudesh & Karachi have made a confederation with India. Pakjab has signed a Peace & Security Treaty with India. Pushtunistan has joined with the Pushtun areas of Afghanistan.
  • All have decided to get rid of the Wahhabi streak of Islam and have decided to opt for Sufism and Indian Culture centric outlook.
  • Taliban tendencies have been restricted to Pushtun areas.
  • Pakjabis has purged its security forces of all Islamists. Pakjabi Security Force has now only two missions - protection of border against Taliban elements; and fighting all Islamists internally. Furthermore it has decided to demilitarize completely. Some have been inducted into RAW.
  • All have decided to lay more stress on social development like education, health, environment, water resource management, agriculture
  • India and other developed countries have decided to help the emerging states with technology and development.
  • Pre-Islamic history and Indian cultural heritage are encouraged from school level onwards. Nazariya-e-Pakistan, and Two-Nation-Theory have been consigned to the dustbin of history.
  • Teaching Islamic extremism is forbidden, and anybody doing that can be sentenced to death
  • All emerging states have some form of democracy
Worst-case Scenario:
The Elite lose all power to influence the situation. Pakistani Army has splintered along ethnic and sectarian lines. Central Govt. has collapsed. Extremist and criminal gangs take over. Everybody becomes more Islamic. Every group has its own fiefdom. There are daily street battles. Industry and Agriculture have totally broken down. There is hyper-inflation. The desertification of Pakistan has intensified. There is no power. There is wide-spread famine and water-shortage and no way to feed Pakistan's population of 250 million. No group can take over, establish supremacy and bring peace because of the meddling of outside powers like India, USA, Saudi Arabia, Iran and China. Extreme poverty takes over. Food riots everywhere. The daily death toll from violence is over 1500 dead. It is the beginning of getting even worse.

Nuanced Scenario:
The Taliban take over the country and there is a central power center, but lacking any expertise in governance and bad international relations, there is extreme poverty. Oil has run out and the Ummah has refused to help. Poppy crops have been sprayed with herbicidal agents, so that revenue stream has also died out. Pakistan has lost all industry or foreign investments. Remissions from diaspora have stopped flowing, as most have gotten their families to leave Pakistan. The elite has mostly escaped to UAE, UK, Canada. Agriculture is fickle and there is constant tension with Indians who have decided to divert all Indus River Basin rivers. All other sects than Wahabbi are being eliminated slowly but steadily.
RajeshA, your scenarios are even more fanciful than Talat Masood's, whose scenario building capacities (which he muct have learnt in the PA) have obviously been either withered or coloured!

To start with, no country splits in the ideal, peaceful way you describe. Pakistan is not going to either. Even one splinter is going to be accompanied by immense turmoil, possibly war, if it came to that...Second, all societies are "run" by their elites..the Paki elite is far removed from the Taliban way, and militarily the Taliban really cannot threaten the Paki Army in the main population centres (which is what counts)...the Paki Army is, for most parts, a disciplined force (all that money that goes in has to sho somewhere!) - its no sub Saharan African Army that will splinter away... Also remember, for all its weaknesses, Pakistan is still a country with a per capita income of about 700-800 dollars, justa little lower than India's. For a long time, their PCI used to be higher than us...Therefore, there is enough wealth inside the country, even if a lot of Pakis stash away their monies in safe havens abroad..

My two bits on the scenarios:

The best case scenario (for Pak) would be for the US to withdraw from Afghanistan, leaving a "good Taliban" in power. Pakistan automatically take care of the Paki Taliban problem as the latter's ideological and infrastrurual support lines are "coopted". Troubles continue in Balochistan and Sindh, but in the manageable proportions seen in the '80s and '90s..Pakistan also manages to extricate itself from the liquidity crisis it is into currently through the rents extracted for its services to the US. It doesnt become an investor's haven, but muddle through with a 3-4 % growth rate aided by Middle Eastern investments and doemstic savings...continues needling India in Kashmir and elsewhere...Basically status quo as known in the '90s....

Worst case scenario realistically would be of the US leaving Afghanistan without any semblance of stability...The region erupts in a multi cornered civil war...therefore intensification of the Pak Taliban problem..Pak Taliban joins forces with the rgular taliban to create their "Pakhtunkhwa" ...The Baloch create libverated zones as well..the Pak Army for all purposes give up on these areas...Pakistan lurches from one aid meeting to another to meet its obligations...Continues to create problems for India periodically to keep the pot boiling...Regular terror attacks continue within PAkistan..US and the rest of the world get mighty worried about nukes and manages to get at least some keys of the nuke stable..Basically a Wild Islamic West in India's backyard, with nukes!

A more realistic scenario is probably that of the Karzai regime surviving in Afghanistan and the US presence maintained for 5 years...the Pak Taliban problem continues, and Pakistan keeps struggling in its frontier areas...It gets US and western sympathies for support they continue to need in Afghanistan, which helps it survive...Trudge along, absorbing the occasional terror attacks on key population centres...Basically more of the same..
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Gerard »

Acharya wrote:This is what Uncle has been able to achieve brilliantly using global media. The global media does not talk about LeT attacking India from 1990 inside India and Kashmir supported by Pakistan army and govt.
But how often does the GOI itself talk about this?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Gerard »

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by SSridhar »

Gerard wrote:
Acharya wrote:This is what Uncle has been able to achieve brilliantly using global media. The global media does not talk about LeT attacking India from 1990 inside India and Kashmir supported by Pakistan army and govt.
But how often does the GOI itself talk about this?
In hindsight it might be good that it doesn't talk much because its idea of talking seems to start with implicating itself.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by RajeshA »

somnath wrote:RajeshA, your scenarios are even more fanciful than Talat Masood's, whose scenario building capacities (which he muct have learnt in the PA) have obviously been either withered or coloured!

To start with, no country splits in the ideal, peaceful way you describe. Pakistan is not going to either. Even one splinter is going to be accompanied by immense turmoil, possibly war, if it came to that...Second, all societies are "run" by their elites..the Paki elite is far removed from the Taliban way, and militarily the Taliban really cannot threaten the Paki Army in the main population centres (which is what counts)...the Paki Army is, for most parts, a disciplined force (all that money that goes in has to sho somewhere!) - its no sub Saharan African Army that will splinter away... Also remember, for all its weaknesses, Pakistan is still a country with a per capita income of about 700-800 dollars, justa little lower than India's. For a long time, their PCI used to be higher than us...Therefore, there is enough wealth inside the country, even if a lot of Pakis stash away their monies in safe havens abroad..

My two bits on the scenarios:

The best case scenario (for Pak) would be for the US to withdraw from Afghanistan, leaving a "good Taliban" in power. Pakistan automatically take care of the Paki Taliban problem as the latter's ideological and infrastrurual support lines are "coopted". Troubles continue in Balochistan and Sindh, but in the manageable proportions seen in the '80s and '90s..Pakistan also manages to extricate itself from the liquidity crisis it is into currently through the rents extracted for its services to the US. It doesnt become an investor's haven, but muddle through with a 3-4 % growth rate aided by Middle Eastern investments and doemstic savings...continues needling India in Kashmir and elsewhere...Basically status quo as known in the '90s....

Worst case scenario realistically would be of the US leaving Afghanistan without any semblance of stability...The region erupts in a multi cornered civil war...therefore intensification of the Pak Taliban problem..Pak Taliban joins forces with the rgular taliban to create their "Pakhtunkhwa" ...The Baloch create libverated zones as well..the Pak Army for all purposes give up on these areas...Pakistan lurches from one aid meeting to another to meet its obligations...Continues to create problems for India periodically to keep the pot boiling...Regular terror attacks continue within PAkistan..US and the rest of the world get mighty worried about nukes and manages to get at least some keys of the nuke stable..Basically a Wild Islamic West in India's backyard, with nukes!

A more realistic scenario is probably that of the Karzai regime surviving in Afghanistan and the US presence maintained for 5 years...the Pak Taliban problem continues, and Pakistan keeps struggling in its frontier areas...It gets US and western sympathies for support they continue to need in Afghanistan, which helps it survive...Trudge along, absorbing the occasional terror attacks on key population centres...Basically more of the same..
somnath,
you're basically repeating what Talat Masood has said.
  • your future scenarios IMHO are geared more towards the next 3 years, but not the next 15 years.
  • your best-case scenario and your worst-case scenario differ only on whether America leaves Afghanistan in the control of the "good Taliban" or not.
  • your co-option model for Pakistani Taliban is based on the model, which is a few years old, where the TSPA still had the say, and when the Pakistani Taliban still had not tasted blood, and had had supremacy over large tracts of territory. There is no way the jinnie is going back into the bottle.
  • you are ignoring that around 2.5 million IDPs will feed into the recruitment drive of the Taliban and other extremist groups
  • the Islamist 'awakening' in South Pakjab, which has a strong alliance with Baitullah too has been downplayed.
  • I am aware that Pakistan's economic indicators are not that bad, but its social and security indicators are really getting bad. Not for nothing is it being seen as a failed state. Also the trends in exports is unmistakable and the competition from other countries will only get stronger.
I admit my best case scenario was not that realistic, though not entirely impossible, it was simply the best case scenario thinkable for the Pakistanis. I did not really go into how each scenario can come about, as those things have been under continuous discussion here.

There are times in history when history moves along very rapidly. In Pakistan this seems to be the case. So 15 years is a long time.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by archan »

Acharya wrote:
SSridhar wrote:
There is a lot of truth in what Najam Sethi says. The world (read the US and its allies) believe that fighting the Al Qaeda and the 'bad' Taliban is the 'real fight against terrorism'. Of course, Ms. Clinton in her Gurgaon speech yesterday talks of a 'syndicate of terror outfits' in Pakistan, but I wonder how much of that 'syndicate' she will remember two years from now when the US operation would have come to an end in Afghanistan and a US/Pakistan-backed 'good' Taliban regime would have assumed power.
This is what Uncle has been able to achieve brilliantly using global media. The global media does not talk about LeT attacking India from 1990 inside India and Kashmir supported by Pakistan army and govt.
And perhaps that is where Indian media has failed. They shold have been crying hoarse at the top of their voices all thees years. This is the age of internet and news travels faster and further than it ever did. Unfortunately the Indian media, like many Indians seems to be forever stuck in ideologies and theorizing. Or, the Indians have failed to produce a strong enough nationalist media.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by svinayak »

archan wrote:
And perhaps that is where Indian media has failed. They shold have been crying hoarse at the top of their voices all thees years. This is the age of internet and news travels faster and further than it ever did. Unfortunately the Indian media, like many Indians seems to be forever stuck in ideologies and theorizing. Or, the Indians have failed to produce a strong enough nationalist media.
Indian media is owned by the west.
Last edited by svinayak on 20 Jul 2009 20:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Dilbu »

Pakistan asks EU for weapons to fight Taliban
ISLAMABAD — Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani on Monday asked the European Union for immediate weapons and training for security forces to help the insurgency-wracked nation drive out the Taliban.

Gilani made the demand during talks with EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana, who had earlier pledged full support for Pakistan as it deals with the resettlement of 1.9 million people displaced in fighting with Taliban rebels.

The premier urged the EU to provide "immediate assistance" for law enforcement capacity building and the "supply of much needed sophisticated weapon systems" to eliminate terrorism, a statement issued by Gilani's office said.
Allaah ke naam pe dede baabaa...
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Dilbu »

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by archan »

Acharya ji,
Hence my last statement:
Or, the Indians have failed to produce a strong enough nationalist media.
PS: some misquoting in your post. :wink:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Dilbu »

20 dead in clashes in troubled northwest Pakistan
PESHAWAR, Pakistan — Clashes between security forces and militants have left 20 people dead in northwest Pakistan over the past 24 hours, officials said Monday, in the latest violence in the troubled region.

The deadliest fighting took place in the northern Swat Valley, where the army is wrapping up an offensive against Taliban militants. The military said in a statement it killed 12 suspected insurgents in a gunbattle near the town of Dardial, while one officer died. Two more militants were killed in the village of Ghul Shah.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by svinayak »

This stupid writer is trying to giver her opinion in many articles

http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/ ... the-indus/

From Kashmir to Kabul, and then down the Indus

Post a comment (24)
Posted by: Myra MacDonald
Tags: Pakistan: Now or Never

FROM KASHMIR TO KABUL:

With India and Pakistan trying to reach a rapprochement on the sidelines of a summit in Egypt, it’s worth reading this summary by the Council on Foreign Relations - based on interviews with five South Asia experts - on why it matters across the region as far as Afghanistan.

The tensions between India and Pakistan have a powerful impact on stability in Afghanistan. They prevent the Pakistan Army from focusing fully on taking on the Taliban and other militant groups; the two countries are rivals for influence in Afghanistan itself; and both remain vulnerable to a fresh flare-up should Pakistan-based militants launch another Mumbai-style attack on India.

“Thus, the long-standing dispute over Kashmir is one part of a wider regional dynamic that has direct implications for Washington’s ability to support a stable Afghan state and to address the threat posed by terrorist groups in South Asia,” CFR quotes its own South Asia specialist Daniel Markey as saying.

“And until a settlement is reached, there will be no dearth of “spoilers” eager for opportunities to inflame India-Pakistan relations,” it quotes Georgetown University’s Howard Shaffer as saying.
Now it is admitted

The five experts concur that the United States’ ability to influence relations between India and Pakistan is limited — India has always rejected outside mediation in the Kashmir dispute — but suggest Washington might be able to nudge the process along discreetly from the sidelines. And with the death toll rising among foreign troops in Afghanistan, the United States is likely to be trying to do everything it can to encourage stability in the region. (U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton visits India this week.)

The five experts are less specific about how they expect India and Pakistan to reach agreement, although as discussed in an earlier post, there is much talk about whether the two countries can build on a draft roadmap for peace established two years ago. If the U.S. administration of President Barack Obama can convince the Pakistan Army to end support for militant groups, and help Pakistan’s civilian government win control of national security policy from the military, says Indian analyst C. Raja Mohan, “Obama will find it no problem at all to convince Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to sign off on the Kashmir deal that he has already negotiated.”
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by svinayak »

http://www.cfr.org/publication/19805/ho ... Dinterview

Raja Mohan

C. Raja Mohan, Professor, S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies, Nanyang Technological University, Singapore

From the Indian perspective, there is a short answer to the question on what the Obama administration should do about Kashmir as part of its Af-Pak strategy: nothing. There is also a longer answer to the question--nothing direct--that I would like to develop.

First, the empirical evidence. The many direct U.S. interventions in Kashmir over the last six decades were not only unsuccessful but also prevented the construction of sustainable ties with India. New Delhi saw Washington's Kashmir interest as part of a broader tilt toward Pakistan that began in the early years of the Cold War.

If Kashmir has been at the heart of India's accumulated distrust of the United States, the Bush administration chose to ignore the issue as it tried to build a strategic partnership with India. Paradoxically, it was precisely during this period of American "neglect" that India and Pakistan made the biggest progress on resolving their conflict over Kashmir.

From 2003-2007, Delhi and Islamabad unveiled many confidence-building measures in Kashmir for the first time since the partition of the subcontinent. Above all, Indian and Pakistani leaders negotiated, through an official back channel, the framework of a political settlement on Kashmir. The talks, however, are stalled thanks to internal instability in Pakistan and the renewal of spectacular terror attacks on India like the kind we saw in Mumbai last November.

As it understood the costs to America's blossoming ties with India, the Obama administration quickly stepped back from the initial impulse to reinject itself into Kashmir. The administration must nevertheless persist in building on Obama's one important insight: The conflicts on the eastern and western borders of Pakistan are interconnected.

At the source of the trouble in Kashmir and Afghanistan has been the Pakistani army's decades-old policy of nurturing extremist groups as strategic assets against New Delhi and Kabul. Under Obama, Washington has come to recognize that defeating al-Qaeda and the Taliban involves getting the Pakistani army to end its deliberate support of violent extremism. This, in turn, is possible only if the United States can help Pakistan's civilian leaders wrest control over national security policy from the army. If and when he makes progress on these two objectives, Obama will find it no problem at all to convince Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to sign off on the Kashmir deal that he has already negotiated.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by ramana »

in the blog article Kashmir to Kabul,
If the U.S. administration of President Barack Obama can convince the Pakistan Army to end support for militant groups, and help Pakistan’s civilian government win control of national security policy from the military, says Indian analyst C. Raja Mohan, “Obama will find it no problem at all to convince Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to sign off on the Kashmir deal that he has already negotiated.”
So there is a piss deal which is stalled for lack of right atmosphere. BTW note the tone of CRM.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by shiv »

Does Raja Mohan sound stupid or is it just me.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by svinayak »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC72C4yqmA0
July 19, 2009
In an exclusive interview to NDTV's Barkha Dutt, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has said that Obama administration has India's interest in mind. She also emphasised that US ties with India i...
In an exclusive interview to NDTV's Barkha Dutt, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has said that Obama administration has India's interest in mind. She also emphasised that US ties with India is independent of Pakistan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKVCkDEf5jo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQoitZ6QoQc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z620fZH60Mo
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by tripathi »

shiv wrote:Does Raja Mohan sound stupid or is it just me.
Well CRM sounds realistic here.They way mms has been negotiating india's strategic interests leaves no doubt about him being under influence of west.its we BRfites who r away from reality.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by ashish raval »

^^ I dont understand why India takes US BS that stable pak is in India's intrest while clearly the facts of last 7 months states otherway around. Indian cities were bombed when pakistan was stable however since last 7 months due to instability in pak, Indian cities are safe. Paki morons should be kept on their feet if Indian cities are to be kept safe. :twisted:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by ramana »

tripathi wrote:
shiv wrote:Does Raja Mohan sound stupid or is it just me.
Well CRM sounds realistic here.They way mms has been negotiating india's strategic interests leaves no doubt about him being under influence of west.its we BRfites who r away from reality.

In all likelihood people like CRM are really fronts for GOI backroom operators. What they do is act as sounding boards by airing controversial options and gage the reaction from Indian public. If anyone had the ideas that are put out by these worthies, they would be shunned and derided for their intellect. Yet these folks are lionized as opinion makers and shapers. Alternatively they already know the backroom chatter and publish it as their insights to ingrate themselves with all the Track Two community.
sum
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by sum »

They way mms has been negotiating india's strategic interests leaves no doubt about him being under influence of west.its we BRfites who r away from reality.
I somehow agree.

I'm sure that within a year or two, we will have some sort of a "understanding" on J&K with Pak and we will have many BRFites trying to explain the silver lining of the deal(which doesnt exist) to others...
sum
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by sum »

In all likelihood people like CRM are really fronts for GOI backroom operators. What they do is act as sounding boards by airing controversial options and gage the reaction from Indian public.
Absolutely..

There was a blog (by a journo) who mentioned how his contacts in the agencies told him about GoI releasing trial balloons regarding a "settlement" on Kashmir through articles in the media. That was the time we saw tons of articles saying "give J&K away if thats what the people want".

However, the adverse reaction caused them to move no further.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by RajeshA »

It would be a good somebody who has the data and has some experience with graphs, etc. could graph

How many terrorist acts happened in India when Pakistan was considered stable!
bart
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by bart »

shiv wrote:Does Raja Mohan sound stupid or is it just me.
CRM and Uday Bhaskar are 2 'lifafa' journalists who seem to be on the permanent payroll of the US State Dept.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by NRao »

shiv wrote:Does Raja Mohan sound stupid or is it just me.
THAT is MMS's test balloon.

However, why does he need a test balloon I am not sure. All he has to do is say "sign NPT" and go back to sleep.

NPT will be signed by end of 2010.

CTBT before that some time.

ENR techs will be bought at $200 Billion - in addition to the $150 billion for the reactors.

F=18 without wheels will be supplied. Wheels will follow when India signs Kashmir. Which of course is a no brainer.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by ramana »

bart wrote:
shiv wrote:Does Raja Mohan sound stupid or is it just me.
CRM and Uday Bhaskar are 2 'lifafa' journalists who seem to be on the permanent payroll of the US State Dept.
I dont think the latter is anyone's lifafa.
sum
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by sum »

X-post of AjayKKs article in the sports thread. :
A month old article detailing Pakistani cricket team's links with Tableeghi Jamaat.
Posting here for archival as URL will not be saved.

Quote:
Pakistani cricket and the influence of Tableeghi Jamaat.

Is Pakistan winning this year’s Twenty20 a symptom of the receding influence of the Tableeghi Jammat in the team, asks Nadeem F. Paracha.


In 1996 when the underdog Sri Lankan cricket team created one upset after another to finally win that year’s prestigious Cricket World Cup, the then decade long Civil War on the island between the Sinhalese-dominated government and the Tamil Tigers took a subtle but definitive turn. [1]

Not that this major cricketing triumph ended the strife in the war-torn island. It is, however, believed that the decisive process towards the victory of the Sri Lankan Army against the Tamil Tigers this year [2] began when the Sri Lankan people saw themselves galvanizing towards forming a firm and united consensus against terrorism and internal warfare after their cricket team brought home the cherished cricket trophy. [3]

Many Pakistanis are now looking at the Pakistan cricket team’s magnificent success in the finals of the recently concluded Twenty-Twenty Cricket World Cup in England to work as some kind of a psychological catalyst that will trigger unity between the people and politics to once and for all overcome the violent challenges Pakistan has been facing for the last many years. [4]

Of course, this is easier wished than done - especially in a country in which, even when large sections of political parties and the people are finally approaching a workable consensus on the issue of supporting armed confrontation against the barbaric contingents of Islamists in the mountains of Swat and Waziristan [5] - there are still certain influential politicians and media personalities who are stubbornly frozen in the chaotic and highly emotional narratives of the immediate post-9/11 period that saw a bulk of Pakistanis actually believing that extremists like Osama Bin Laden and Mulla Omar were expressions of anti-American imperialism and ‘true Islam.’ [6]; [7]

The recent victory of the Pakistan cricket team in a major event can do wonders for a state and government who are now trying to unite a people who seem to be divided on the issue of the Taliban and the Army operation on the basis of sects and ethnicity.

Starting in the late 1970s, an anti-pluralistic process was initiated by the Zia-ul-Haq dictatorship that soon spiralled beyond mere posturing and sloganeering.

With the ‘Afghan jihad’ raging against the former Soviet Union, Zia, his intelligence agencies, and parties like Jamat-i-Islami and Jamiat Ulema-i-Islam started embracing a narrow and highly political version of Islam.

This was done to radicalise large sections of the Pakistani Muslims who had historically been part of a more apolitical and lenient strains of the faith —the kind that over the centuries had evolved within the highly pluralistic milieu of the subcontinent.

Most Pakistanis were historically related to the mazaar and sufi traditions of the subcontinent, and thus, were least suitable to fight a ‘jihad’ that Zia was planning to peddle in Afghanistan.
Their beliefs were not compatible at all with Zia or for that matter, with late Abul Ala Maududi and Syed Qutb’s versions of Political Islam. [8]

To compensate this ideological ‘deficiency’, the Zia regime sprang up indoctrination centres in the shape of thousands of madrassas.

Almost all of them were handed over to radical puritans. These were preachers and ‘scholars’ who had become critical of the strains of faith most Pakistanis adhered to. Accusing these strains of being ‘adulterated’, they fell instead for the assertive charms of the Political Islam.

When doves cried

On the social front, and especially after the anti-Soviet ‘Afghan jihad’ came to a sudden halt in 1989-90, the tensed up Islamisation process and related indoctrination that had largely remained within the four walls of madressas during the awkward Zia era, suddenly burst its banks and started to rapidly flow back inwards from the Afghan border.

This not only saw the Salafiyya groups (patronized by Zia) becoming more active than ever within the country [9], but a more evangelical side of this trend too appeared to cater to the fall-out of Zia’s Islamisation process that now entered the drawing rooms of middle-class and the petty-bourgeois Pakistanis.

Starting with the charismatic South African Muslim speaker, Ahmed Deedat, in the mid and late 1980s, his video cassettes became prized possessions in lavish middle-class drawing rooms, setting off a trend that then saw the likes of Ferhat Hashmi, Babar Chawdry and Dr. Israr Ahmed becoming household names.

Their biggest prize were well to do middle and upper middle-class Pakistanis who ever since the 1980s had been gradually moving away from their largely Berelvi heritage.

Following on the footsteps of the above-mentioned Islamic evangelists, arrived the likes of Zakir Naik and the hyperbolic conspiracy theorist, Zaid Hamid. These too gathered their share of urban middle-class followers.

However, the trend in this respect really kicked off when after the mid-1990s, organisations boasting such evangelists started to bag sporting and show-biz celebrities as ardent followers. [10]; [11]

Uneasy of remaining apolitical and statement-less in the rapidly unfolding post-Cold-War and post-Afghan-War era in Pakistan, and stung by episodes of chaotic and cut-throat democracy manhandled by the Pakistani state in the 1990s, sections of the urban middle-classes and many of their celebrities decided to lend a receptive ear to the non-militant version of modern conservative Islam being peddled by the neo-Islamic-evangelists.

Having little or no intellectual linkage with the political left - and growing up as part of a generation under the Zia regime that through Orwellian doctoring of the secular aspects of Pakistan’s political and cultural history [12] attempted to wipe out any memories of a more secular and liberal Pakistan - these celebrities became easy prey for the more ‘educated’ trend of Islamic obscurantism and myopia that started to cut through the urban middle-classes in the 1990s.

That said, it was however, a somewhat more populist organisation in this respect that rose the most in prominence in this period of urban Pakistani middle-class reflection and its eventual submission to modern Islamic evangelicalism.

This organization was the Tableeghi Jamaat.

Selective bashing

Formed in 1926 as a pacifist Islamic movement, the Tableeghi Jamaat had always been an important part of Pakistan’s myriad Islamic milieu, largely catering to a more conservative clientele among the country’s rural and working classes. [13]

During the 1980s when many sections of the Pakistani middle-classes started to shift away from their ancestral Berelvi heritage and bypassed most secular-progressive trends of the time to arrive at a non-militant strain of modern Islamic conservatism, it was in this period that many among this class started to show an interest in the ways of the (highly ritualistic) Tableeghi Jamaat.

Starting with members of the petty-bourgeois trader classes who were the first major urbanites to join the Tableeghi Jamaat in large numbers, these were soon followed by experimental middle-class folks who’d been dangling uneasily between Salafiyya militancy and Muslim secularism in the 1980s.

At the eruption of an unsettling period of political uncertainty after the violent demise of Ziaul Haq and his dictatorship, the Pakistani middle-classes found themselves in the midst of a raging political and cultural conflict between the prominent remnants of Zia’s ‘Islamic state,’ and the renewed forces of populist democracy. [14]; [15]

In this turmoil, large sections of the Pakistani bourgeois and petty-bourgeois continued to nostalgically hark upon the memories of the superficial ‘stability’ of the Zia years, becoming an applauding part of the post-Ziaist state’s various smear campaigns against populist democrats like Benazir Bhutto (and later Nawaz Sharif).

The state too was hanging on to the ways and memories of Zia. [16]

As the bulk of urban middle-class Pakistan slipped between Salafiyya militancy of the Zia years and the populist democracy of the 1990s, the Tableeghi Jamaat suddenly shot to prominence like never before when a photograph (in 2000) appeared in an English daily showing some retired and playing Pakistani cricketers and a former pop star visiting the Jamaat’s annual gathering in Raiwind near Lahore.

Pakistani cricketers (until 1999), always came out seeming liberal and cosmopolitan.

Many of them stayed for long periods of time in England where they played county and league cricket and were also known for leading modern city lives.

Teams under Mushtaq Muhammad (1976-79) and Imran Khan (1982-92), were packed with both veteran and young individuals who were well versed in the ways of western lifestyles, a reality that only became an issue whenever the team would not do well.

If one goes through former Pakistan cricket captain, Mushataq Muhammad’s autobiography, ‘Inside Out,’ one can clearly deduce that celebrating victories with champagne was not uncommon in the dressing room until about 1979; and (also) even until the late 1990s, many players would go clubbing or to a bar after the game. [17]

After Zia’s Islamisation process started to kick in by 1979, the champagne vanished from the dressing room but the post-match night-life and drinking on tours continued.

But as mentioned before, this only became an issue when the team would lose - as was apparent after the 1979 Pakistan team’s tour of India under Asif Iqbal.

The team lost the six test series, 2-0, and soon the country’s Urdu press was full of reports on the cricketers’ sexual and drunken escapades in the night clubs of Bombay and Delhi.

Those attacked the most in this context were Imran Khan, Asif Iqbal, Zaheer Abbas and the flamboyant Wasim Raja (brother of Rameez Raja and a ‘Shahid Afridi’ of his time).

It was conveniently forgotten that the same team with the same ‘playboys’ and ‘drunkards’ had comprehensively defeated India and New Zealand only a year before and pulled off a miraculous test victory against the Australians the same year. [18]

In a comedy of errors, soon after the 1978 Test match in Melbourne that the Pakistan cricket team won thanks to an extraordinary spell of seam bowling by Sarfraz Nawaz, the tall bowler while talking to an Australian TV interviewer announced that the team will be celebrating the victory by having drinks.

However, after realizing that his country was now under an Islamist Military dictatorship, and that the interview was being beamed live on Pakistan Television, Nawaz at once added: ‘I mean, soft drinks!’

But since Pakistan had pulled off an incredible victory, the conservative press either ignored the statement, or only dealt with it in a light-hearted manner.

This remained to be the trend throughout the 1980s and much of 1990s. The cricketers were able to keep their non-cricketing exploits on tours out of the press as long as they performed well, and stories of clubbing, drinking and ‘womanising’ only appeared when the team was in the doldrums.

For example, Imran Khan was lucky to have his team and himself perform exceptionally well between 1987 and 1992, because these were also the years in which two disgruntled Pakistani players, Qasim Omar and Yunus Ahmed, accused the Pakistani captain and his team of indulging in heavy drinking and smoking hashish in the dressing room. Omar claimed that the team was also involved with call girls. [19]

The attitude of most Pakistani cricketers up until the late 1990s was that as long as they were playing good cricket, nobody had any right to question what they did with their private time.

This arrangement between the players, the press and the public worked well, but started to break down when initial reports and rumours of match-fixing started to appear sometime in 1989.

The rumours grew so strong that when alluded to (by a cricketer), some of the Pakistan team players had fallen prey to the charms of certain Indian and Sharjah based bookmakers during a 1990 tournament in Sharjah, skipper Imran Khan and vice-captain Javed Miandad had to get all the players to swear on the Qu’ran that they had not been involved in match fixing. [20]

Though said to be a parasite born and bred in the cash-rich and amoral atmosphere of the cricket tournaments of Sharjah, the match-fixing aspect of the game truly went international after the 1992.

In spite the fact that the players (of all countries) kept denying its existence and the ICC only superficially looked into the matter, rumours of players (especially from Pakistan, Australia, India and South Africa), kept appearing.

Already under the creeping shadows of these rumours, the Pakistan cricket team touring the West Indies in 1993 got itself entangled in an embarrassing drug scandal.

The team had been performing well ever since the late 1980s, keeping the conservative press at bay about their extra-circular activities on tours, when some Pakistani players were caught by the Granada police for smoking cannabis on a public beach during a tour of the West Indies. [21]

Incredibly, since the Pakistan team had done well in the One day series, the same Urdu press that had been haunting the players ever since the Zia regime for indulging in drinking, clubbing and call girls, now turned around and accused the West Indians for ‘masterminding the operation’ and ‘trapping’ the Pakistani players, who were now set to win the Test series!

The team continued to perform in stunning spurts of brilliance foiled by inexplicable downfalls till the 1999 World Cup in England, when the cricket boards around the world and the ICC finally decided to investigate the stubborn match-fixing allegations against a number of players from various teams.

Pakistan under Wasim Akram performed remarkably well in the 1999 World Cup, reaching the finals only to lose badly to a rampaging Australian team.

This happened almost on the eve of an unprecedented series of verdicts handed down by Pakistani, Indian, Australian and South African boards on the match-fixing issue.

By 2000, Pakistani players, Salim Malik and Attaur Rheman, South Africans Hershel Gibbs (for two years), and skipper Hanse Cronje, and Indian stars Azharuddin, Menoj Parbhakar and Ajit Jadeja were all banned for life for indulging in gambling and match-fixing. [22]; [23]

Heavy fines for not co-operating with the boards and ignoring to report match-fixing incidents were levied against Australians, Mark Waugh and Shane Warne, and Pakistani players such as Wasim Akram, Waqar Yunus, Mushataq Ahmed, Saeed Anwar and Inzimamul Haq.

The bans, the fines and the consequent embarrassment that the team faced, seemed to have plunged many senior players into a discomforting existential crisis.

Wasim quit as captain and was replaced by his fast bowling colleague, Waqar Yunus. The Pakistan cricket team was now on the edge of becoming something nobody could have even vaguely predicted.

Islam’s Poster Boys

The so-called (and unprecedented) ‘Islamisation of the Pakistan cricket team’ that peaked during stylish batsman, Inzimamul Haq’s captainship, was not a sudden happening.

With the accusations, bans and fines, also came stories of heavy drinking, drug intake and womanising that had been sidelined due to a spat of good performances by the team under Wasim Akram.

The Pakistani players now found themselves feeling exposed and excuseless. Wasim’s fast bowling partner, Waqar Yunus, seemed determined to stamp his own style as a captain, and if need be, change the nature of the Pakistan cricket team’s culture.

Following the movement of the team was former Pakistani batsman, Saeed Ahmed.

Though known for his cricketing exploits in the early 1970s and a penchant for London’s night-life, he hadn’t been heard or seen in cricketing circles ever since the 1980s.

Then suddenly, during a Pakistan team’s tour of Sharjah in 2000, Saeed Ahmed was seen in the players’ dressing room. He had changed. He was no more the stylish, flamboyant party animal of the 1970s, but now had a long beard, a skull cap and was clad in shalwar-kameez.

Noting his presence, Saeed’s former county cricket colleague, friend and commentator, Tony Greg, approached him for an interview, not believing it was the same Saeed Ahmed he had played with many years ago.

In the interview Saeed explained how he had joined the Tableeghi Jamaat and was on the ground to help the Pakistan cricket team get through the crisis it was in after the match-fixing scandal exploded.

Both Waqar and the tour management did not mind Saeed’s presence in the dressing room. Waqar explained this by saying Saeed was only there to give the boys some pep talk.

According to a 2006 televised interview that former Pakistani leg-spinner, Mushtaq Ahmed, gave to Wasim Akram on the ESPN-Star Sports Channel, Saeed Ahmed handed Pakistani players a few audio cassettes of recorded lectures of some of the Tableeghi Jamaat’s leading speakers.

Mushtaq explained that throughout that season, many of the players listened to these recordings (mostly in their car stereos).

First to be ‘won over’ in this respect was brilliant left-handed opener, Saeed Anwar, who was also suffering the death of his new-born child. He at once joined the Tableeghi Jamaat and agreed to follow the strict dress code and rituals that the Jamaat prescribes to its members.

Anwar was first seen with a long beard and pensive expression, quietly reading the Qu’ran in the dressing room during Pakistan’s matches against South Africa in Morocco in 2001.

According to an article by well-known Pakistani journalist, Khalid Ahmed, it was Anwar who then started to regularly invite various Tableeghi Jamaat members in the dressing room, and since all Jamaat members are also supposed to preach and ‘invite’ as many people as possible to join the Jamaat [30], Anwar started delivering lectures to his team mates.

All the while Waqar allowed this, believing that a turn towards religion by the players might as well help him find the unity that had been alluding Pakistani cricket teams ever since (ironically), he (along with Wasim Akram) led a revolt against Javed Miandad’s captaincy in 1993. [24]

When Pakistan was bludgeoned out of the 2003 World Cup in South Africa, a number of senior players retired, including Waqar and Wasim. The captainship briefly went to wicketkeeper Rashid Latif and was then handed over to Inzimamul Haq.

Though Saeed Anwar was retired too, by now he had managed to convince Mushtaq Ahmed and innovative off-spinner, Saqlain Mushtaq to join the Tableeghi Jamaat.

In turn both began their own recruiting regime in the team, and helped by Anwar and former-pop-star-turned-tableeghi, Junaid Jamshed, they managed to induct Yasser Hamid and Shoaib Malik into the fold as well.

The Jamaat’s biggest catch however, was the new skipper himself, Inzimamul Haq. [25]

Even though Pakistan had experienced a humiliating exit from the 2003 World Cup under Waqar, Inizimam seemed to have been impressed by how Waqar had tried to pacify the volatile Pakistan cricket team’s culture by allowing Tableeghi Jamaat members a free reign in the dressing room.

According to a former Pakistan Cricket Board (PCB) official, like Inzimam, the PCB too saw the ‘Islamisation of the cricket team’ as an effective way to remould the culture of the dressing room.

The culture that was to be remoulded was the one built during the captaincies of Imran Khan, Javed Miandad and Wasim Akram. That was a culture of flamboyance and combativeness, and of volatile personalities but which, by the late ’90s, had spiralled out of control, getting tainted by greed, political intrigues and groupings.

A PCB media adviser agrees with the theory that Inzimam actually used religion to control the explosive tendencies of the culture prevailing in the team.

Apparently, the late coach Bob Woolmer had little or no problem with the team’s re-born-Muslim status as well and his reasons were attached to what Inzimam was gaining from his Tableeghi regime, i.e. discipline and submission from the cricketers.

However, this discipline was not exactly based on a wilful belief in the importance of professional order, but rather a grudgingly submitted fear gained from the players by dangling the ever-useful Islamic card and a strict code of conduct and ethics based squarely on the Tableeghi Jammat ideals of Islam. [26]

Just before the 2007 World Cup, during a talk show hosted by former Pakistani cricket captain Rameez Raja, Inzimamul Haq, when asked what his message would be for the youth, insistently suggested that along with worldly knowledge, they should also get religious education.

This said two things. First of all, it suggested that ever since Inzimam’s stint as captain, more and more Pakistani cricketers had started using the formulaic language used by Tableeghi Jamaat members.

Secondly, and as some PCB officials and cricketers later claimed, most Pakistani cricketers, if they had to be in the good books of the captain, had to tamely submit to his Tableeghi regime in the dressing room. [27]

Like Mushtaq Ahmed, Saeed Anwar and Saqlain Mushtaq before him, (and celebrities like Junaid Jamshed), Inzimam had willingly let himself be turned into a poster-boy for the Jamaat, which in the last many years has also been accused by some quarters of preying on the insecurities of known personalities in the showbiz and cricketing circles. [28]

During the 2006 ICC Champions Trophy in India, Inzimam was taken to task by the former Pakistan Cricket Board chairman, Naseem Ashraf, for insisting on holding joint prayers with his team on the ground where they were having a training session. [29]

Critics asked whether the Indian team could ever be allowed to pray to Ganesh or Hanuman on a Pakistani ground, or an English team hold a mass at the Gaddafi Stadium?

No was the obvious answer. But veteran sports journalist, Waheed Khan summed it up by suggesting that this is an irrelevant question because these teams were far too professional to ever use a cricket field to exhibit their religious beliefs.

It is no secret that players like Shoaib Akhtar were an awkward anomaly in Inzimam’s team.

The reason behind Shoaib’s falling out with Inzimam had certainly to do with things more than just pulled hamstrings and tantrums.

Shoaib was said to be appalled by the nature of Inzimam’s supposedly ‘manipulative,’ religion-driven ways of gaining loyalty from his players, and it was natural that a personality like Shoaib was bound to feel isolated and persecuted in the new-found religious make-up and psyche of the Inzimam-led Pakistani cricket team.

After much of Inzimam’s team had been ‘converted,’ the only ones deciding not to toe the line in this respect were Shoaib Akhtar, Shahid Afridi, Yunus Khan, Kamran Akmal, Abdul Razzaq and, of course, Danish Kaneria (who is Hindu).

Even Yusuf Yuhanna, a Christian, converted to Islam (and became Mohammad Yusuf). Even though he insisted that there was no pressure from Inzimam for him to change his faith, insiders and press reports suggested that much of Yusuf’s own family members thought otherwise. [29]

However, by early 2006, Shahid Afridi too finally became a member of Inzimam’s religious clique and a Tableeghi Jamaat member, leaving only Shoaib Akhtar, Abdul Razzaq and Yunus Khan to face the music.

Though non-Tableeghi members like Razzaq, Yunus, Akmal and Salman Butt decided to remain diplomatic, Akhtar continued to challenge the Jamaat’s presence in the team. He was a throw-back of the volatile and fiery Pakistani cricketers of the ‘70s, 80s and much of the ‘90s.

Inzimam’s Raiwind regime may have turned the Pakistan cricket team into a (seemingly) well-knit unit, but its many critics accused the captain of operating at the expense of ostracising talent that refused to bend to the religious dictates of his regime. [30]

Many also believe that Inzi’s religious zeal actually softened the team’s innovative and competitive nature, a nature that was rigorously nourished and encouraged by the likes of former captains like Imran Khan, Javed Miandad and Wasim Akram.

The new attitude had left them looking and behaving more like cricketing ambassadors of the Tableeghi Jammat, with an on-field outlook that smacked of a lacklustre approach towards competitive cricket.

Inzimam’s team made an embarrassing exit from the 2007 World Cup, an event that also saw the sudden and unfortunate death of coach Bob Woolmer.

Pakistan’s media manager on that tour, P J. Mir, was highly critical of the way the team behaved, saying that Inzimam and his boys were more interested in preaching, than in playing cricket.

On the same tour, while travelling between cities on the plane, Inzimam ordered all the players to stand up and say their prayers in the aisle of the jet, even when asked by the stewardesses to remain sitting. [31]

But what now?

A PCB official told this writer after new captain Shaoib Malik replaced Inzimam as captain(in 2007), that silently but surely, the culture of the team is being remoulded again, making it ‘more competitive and secular.’

He said the board had absolutely no problem in how any player wanted to conduct his religious business, but the sort of religious fanfare exhibited during Inzimam’s reign as captain is being discouraged.

One can understand that it will take some time for the new board to rectify the Tableeghi culture that was so systematically invested in the psyche of the team.

This became apparent when after losing the 2007 Twenty20 World Cup final to India, Shoaib Malik apologized to ‘all Muslims of the world’.

Some observers considered it to be a somewhat racist comment, since there are Christians and Hindu Pakistanis as well who were supporting the team, and, of course, most Indian Muslims were rather happy that Pakistan lost!

‘It will take time,’ says a PCB official. ‘The cricketers were encouraged to wear their religious beliefs on there sleeves, and they got used to it. But this will change, once the cricketers realise that one doesn’t have to exhibit one’s religious commitment to prove one’s patriotism,’ he added.

Now that the team is under Younus Khan, who never did join the Tableeghi Jamaat, it is reported that the Jamaat’s influence is by and large a receding reality in the team.

In fact, only the dynamic Shahid Khan Afridi seems to have retained strong links with the Jamaat.

But that was never the problem, as such. The issue was psychological. What was used as a tool to discipline a volatile batch of cricketers became a heavy stone around the team’s neck.

It pulled the team’s natural and bashful instincts too close to the ground, consequently leaving it seeming slow and sluggish in attitude, and more interested in using the cricketing platform to advertise the credentials of the Tableeghi Jamaat.

Pakistan had reached four World Cup semi-finals and two World Cup finals between 1979 and 1999; whereas it was chucked out from the very first round of the two World Cups it competed in between 2000 and 2007.

So perhaps Pakistan reaching the finals of the 2007 Twenty20 World Cup, and winning this year’s tournament is a symptom of the receding influence of the Tableeghi Jammat in the team?

Whatever the case, it is important that if Pakistan’s recent triumph is to be used in any way to tackle the polluted air of religious fundamentalism choking the culture and politics of Pakistan, then it is vital that the cricket team presents itself as thoroughly professional lot of Pakistanis who do not hold sympathy for any particular brand of Islam. The culture of unprovoked religious exhibitionism in this respect must come to an intelligent halt.
tripathi
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by tripathi »

Dev gowada was better pm than mms.He used to sleep in parliament at least he didnt signed/sold india's interests like mms did :wink:
bart
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by bart »

tripathi wrote:Dev gowada was better pm than mms.He used to sleep in parliament at least he didnt signed/sold india's interests like mms did :wink:

Im beginning to miss the commies :((
bart
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by bart »

ramana wrote:
bart wrote:
CRM and Uday Bhaskar are 2 'lifafa' journalists who seem to be on the permanent payroll of the US State Dept.
I dont think the latter is anyone's lifafa.
Ramana Saar,

I might be wrong, but kindly check out the below article, it is not as blatant as CRM, but does appear rather suspicious.

http://in.reuters.com/article/southAsia ... 19?sp=true

COLUMN - India, Pakistan reach cautious win-win perch
Reuters India - Uday Bhaskar - ‎Jul 18, 2009‎
It is time to ‘reset’ many South Asian policy buttons and the Clinton visit is an opportunity to clear the clutter. Distorted narratives about state support to terrorism, religious radicalism and nuclear proliferation must be jettisoned and the moderate civilian constituency in Pakistan enabled.

The Indo-Pak joint statement in Egypt has laid the foundation in a tentative manner and this must be strengthened in the Clinton visit.
Last edited by bart on 20 Jul 2009 23:46, edited 1 time in total.
Anujan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Anujan »

SSridhar wrote:Names of Benazir's killers will be announced in a few days
The killers of former prime minister Benazir Bhutto will be exposed and punished soon, said Political Secretary to the president Faisal Raza Abidi on Sunday.

“An independent inquiry into Benazir Bhutto’s assassination (by a United Nations Commission) has begun. People will know within days, not months, as to who killed her, and see them being brought to justice,” Abidi told reporters
Ah ! found an interesting news article. Sure everybody will know by 5pm today who killed the motorma.
UN probe says 'no smoking guns' on Bhutto killing

The UN commission set up to investigate the assassination of Pakistani former prime minister Benazir Bhutto warned Friday it was limited to fact-finding and would not point to "smoking guns". "Let me reiterate that if you think that there will be smoking guns in terms of names, our report is not that and will not be that," Heraldo Munoz, head of the three-member UN commission, told a press conference in Islamabad. "The mandate does not include a criminal investigation," confirmed Munoz

"The responsibility for investigating the crime and prosecuting the perpetrators remains with Pakistani authorities," said Munoz :rotfl: {The UN will conduct a fair and unbiased investigations on latest advancement in zam zam cola consumption techniques. They will also submit a report confirming if BB is in fact dead}

The commission will submit a report to UN chief Ban Ki-moon by the end of December, which will be shared with the Pakistani government and the UN Security Council.
In other news, Pakis world no 1 in lying and peddling BS.
ramana
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by ramana »

Bart read the entire article.
Gerard
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Gerard »

Germany soon to benefit from unique Pakistani culture as their tourists return home..

German Islamists heading to Pakistan training camps
Gerard
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Gerard »

Kasab’s confession has no credibility: Mukhtar
The minister termed it inappropriate to take action against those named by Kasab and based in Pakistan saying that one cannot crack down on groups on the basis of confessions by a person behind bars.
pgbhat
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by pgbhat »

More talks about talks? ----- Maleeha Lodhi
Mohatarma is a part time diplomat full time jihadi.
Addressing terrorism is important, but to pretend that terrorism is the only source of troubled Pakistan-India relations is to wilfully ignore the reality that violence is a consequence, and not the cause, :rotfl: of the long festering Kashmir dispute.

Unless the dialogue between the two countries is able to address the Kashmir issue, relations will remain susceptible to a relapse into tensions, even confrontation. This is not to urge placing any precondition. Nor is it make progress on other issues conditional on diplomatic advances on Kashmir. It is simply the dictum of common sense. And the lesson of history.
Gagan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Gagan »

pgbhat wrote:Mohtarma Maleeha Lodhi: to pretend that terrorism is the only source of troubled Pakistan-India relations is to wilfully ignore the reality that violence is a consequence, and not the cause, :rotfl: of the long festering Kashmir dispute.
Why does pakistan not understand once and for all, that Kashmir is never coming to them. They need to understand that now is the time for them to cut their losses and keep the part that is with them. With a PM like MMS, who in all likelyhood has agreed to a LOC = International Border (I think this proposal has been around for a while, because we have heard of it at the time of previous governments also. It is surely a US ordained 'solution' to kashmir).

Now if kashmir is not coming to pakistan, pakistan has a choice of either living peacefully and developing itself using that peace, or continue on the path that it is on, and invite total annihilation, without India having to do much.

But pakistanis being pakis, they are likely to take recourse to the path of their self destruction so that they can injure India just a little bit more.

But wrt the present GoI, some reporter needs to ask the Home minister or the PM, what course of action they have in mind, should another major terror attack take place. As G parthasarthy said in his TV interview, there is going to be another attack, and this time there will be no Kasab. One really needs to goad GoI into developing a plan of action, by repeatedly asking what they plan to do about pak sponsored terror. The answer can't be of course talking to pakistan, since that has not worked for the last 63 years, nor can it be handing over kashmir to them, because that will not buy peace either.
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