MRCA News and Discussion

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 25 Feb 2010 10:11

Singha wrote:spies near HAL keep a sharp eye for the Typhoon here for trials. saw it clearly yesterday - very quiet engine and difficult to get advance notice unlike tejas.

This very thing should decide the MRCA, would be so heartening to see this engine on our Tejas

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 25 Feb 2010 10:45

Off topic but thanks Shiv. I hadn't laughed out loud and audibly in a long time. Thanks again. And to those lucky Bangalorites, take some photos if you can will ya. Much appreciated.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 25 Feb 2010 10:51

I have irrefutably a upper hand on this, being a soon to be PhD from a world leading university

I think this would be my sig - if BR had the feature! Stunning stuff, learn something new at BR everyday

CM

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 25 Feb 2010 10:55

nitinm wrote: I have irrefutably a upper hand on this, being a soon to be PhD from a world leading university in Technology Strategy.

You may not know, but most posters are either PhDs or would-be PhDs in "the" world leading university of Piskology, which ranks far higher than "a" world leading university in Technology Strategy.

While we are on the topic, let me share a secret Biradher.... I am also the founder of world-renowned technology thinktank that sets the strategy for all my neighbourhood landscaping!

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 25 Feb 2010 11:04

I have a PhD. Pretty Huge....ok n/m.

archan · Post by **archan** » 25 Feb 2010 11:06

nitin babu, you are lucky a certain enqyoob is not around. Hopefully he will read this and won't be able to resist the temptation..
But nevertheless, your posts are making mods drag their feet into this thread, which is unlikely to bear good results. So I suggest you take heed to ramana ji's advice and clear up your posts. If that seems to be a problem, we will be happy to assist you (not that you need it) in getting that prestigious Pee Ehh Dee from the ubergood institute by making sure you don't waste too much time posting here..

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 25 Feb 2010 11:35

Anant wrote:Off topic but thanks Shiv. I hadn't laughed out loud and audibly in a long time. Thanks again. And to those lucky Bangalorites, take some photos if you can will ya. Much appreciated.

I haven't seen much flying from the Typhoon...may be they are using the West-East orientation for the take offs.....but haven't seen them land either...the way my office is..can't miss those.....what gives?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Feb 2010 12:14

With so much international prestige at stake,the GOI is going to be crushed between a stone and a hard place,whilst sitting on a fence which has sharp points! The GOI should tackle this aspect taking very hard look at facts.What is that which we have in hand vs what is offered to us in the bush.

1.Russia:Old friend and flame,sometimes crusty,still getting its act together post SU.Improvement but more to be done in terms of after-sales ervice.However,in hand,it has provided us with nuclear sub tech,nuclear sub/s on its/their way,B'Mos missiles in a JV,tanks,5th-gen fighter JV,etc.,etc.In fact,any move to sideline Russia would be a catastrophic act of strategic suicide,as it is only Russia which will sell.provide us with its latest military tech.NO other nation is as forthcoming as Russia.We must weigh the idiosyncracies of deals with Russia against its tremendous worth.

3.The Europeans:Some are old friends,some are like an old flame, (France),who has from time to time also flirted with our most devilish rival,Pak.This sluttish behaviour is typical of the Europeans.They will perform whorish tricks with anyone for money.They'll sell the Pakis Agostas to later sell us Scorpenes and then offer their latest yet again to the Pakis! However,if the price is right they will perform Any trick that we desire.

3.The US: It has never slept with us,though there was a "brief encounter" after '62 during the Kennedy years,and boy wasn't he a charmer?! It promises to open its pleasure palace and give us what our heart desires,but it is utterly promiscuous and consorts with all manner of poxed clients like Pak.If we sleep with the US we will also get contaminated with it.It provides all manner of tricks for Pak and is willing to do the same for us if we are willing to make it a "three-some",along with Pak! But whether we are willing to get into bed with it and Pak and get "rogered" from behind,especially in our sensitive "Kashmir backside".If we suddenly get into a lovers "tiff" with Pak,will the US stop giving us our daily "shots"? Therefore to me terribly unreliable.WE akso run the risk of contracting "aids" from the US when it decides to bring into the bedroom other pimps and pros with whom it has a "special relationship" with.It will also want us to perform tricks for it when it embarks upon gangland wars with its pet enemies like Iran,etc.

Therefore,from the political angle,I would rate the three entities in the order gvien above,Russia-1,Europe-2,the US the wooden spoon.

Coming back to the technical arena,here we are on clearer ground provided thye IAF knows what it really wants,keeping the MMRCA deal firmly in perspective of the larger picture of the IAF/Indian aerospace priorities short,med. and long-term.I wish that the IAF's evaluation will be sincere and will not be interfered with and its evluation in the total context should be given top priority.

manish · Post by **manish** » 25 Feb 2010 12:18

nitinm wrote:I have irrefutably a upper hand on this, being a soon to be PhD from a world leading university in Technology Strategy.

Ah, finally I have a good enough reason to visit the MRCA thread again.
Thank God!

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Feb 2010 12:45

nitinm ji, You are not this guy by chance, are you?: Clicky

Good luck with your Pee Yech Dee - but remember....as they say, it aint over till the Fat Advisor sings.

wow! My 1st and probably last post on MRCA dhaaga!

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 25 Feb 2010 16:07

EF AESA update.. Electronic attack equipped?

While acknowledging the ARTS program, the Defense Ministry has been unwilling to discuss it in detail, particularly with regard to electronic attack.

The AESA TDP is a U.K.-only program, despite London’s attempt, along with its other three Typhoon partner countries—Germany, Italy and Spain— to align an AESA radar program for the aircraft. An industry executive from one of the partner states suggests the electronic-attack element of the U.K. work is a reason why the projects are being run in parallel.

The other three countries’ electronic-attack aspirations center on the use of a dedicated platform, which they say can defeat radars over a far higher frequency range than a Typhoon AESA radar.

The Typhoon TDP will employ the swash-plate approach used on the ARTS program to allow the antenna to be repositioned and to counter performance degradation at high off-bore-sight angles. The industry executive says the bandwidths to be used for the TDP radar will be broader as a result of the electronic-attack requirement.

Bob Mason, Selex Galileo’s senior vice president for sales and marketing for radar, says the U.K. contract was signed “a couple of weeks ago.” The TDP work will cover both air-to-air and air-to-ground modes. Work on the latter will explore high-resolution synthetic aperture radar and ground moving target-indicator modes. Mason says he cannot discuss the question of electronic attack.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... %20Typhoon

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 25 Feb 2010 16:19

shiv wrote:
nitinm wrote:I have irrefutably a upper hand on this, being a soon to be PhD from a world leading university in Technology Strategy.

Wow!! Can I have your autograph please! Imagine. A PhD! In a forum full of illiterates!

But I have a claim to fame too. I have actually met and shaken hands with a PhD. Now I know not many of you have done that - but I can tell you his name - Ramnarayan Goldstein and give you his email. He sends out autographs for Pakistan $1 apiece.

Shiv,

Why don't you visit one of the IITs ? You can shake hand with a zillion PhDs, D Scs, D Phils etc. You thorw a stone at random you hit a PhD.

K

sunnyv · Post by **sunnyv** » 25 Feb 2010 17:57

Hello This is my first post( plz do ignore any part which hurts any one's ego)
BAe Hawk 132 may shoot down Eurofighter in MMRCA
http://idrw.org/?p=650
How abt this for devlopment.This will surely change some views abt eurofighter's unanimous support on this forum.
For me personally india needs this MRCA very badly, and this delay in purchase as well as delay in LCA has become a opportunity instead to get hands on very latest electronic warfare centric aircraft.
This is the first time we will have an overwhelming edge over both china and pakistan in terms of quality of aircrafts.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 25 Feb 2010 18:17

Welcome sunny.. using your link to quote..(which is now old news, in fact HAL has demanded 10mil$ in damages from BAE)

since AESA radar is the main Requirement in MMRCA deal Euro fighter Typhoon AESA is still in development and still to be integrated and accepted in any developing partner country of the jets which may delay the whole induction of this jets in Air force which is in urgent need of new jets to replace old Migs which have been phased out in recent time .

I don't think any other aircraft has a 'mature' AESA radar apart from the SH.. (If you read through previous posts..thats the advantage the SH has over the other aircrafts but it falls behind the others in a few aspects..there is a whole spectrum of bit n pieces need to be taken into consideration.. Its just a matter of whats on the IAF's & DOD's priority list)

In a way we've had issues with spares from the Russian's for a while now..that doesn't mean we have stopped purchasing from them.. I think both contracts will be dealt as separate issues.

I am sure browsing through previous posts would help keeping up to date..its sure increased my gyan

Happy reading!!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Feb 2010 18:25

I have irrefutably a upper hand on this, being a soon to be PhD from a world leading university in Technology Strategy.

oh finally, finally we have a peeyechdee in our midst ! BR is saved ! our prayer has been answered !

thank you god !!

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 25 Feb 2010 18:36

PhDs and BR dont mix together - it is a proven theory that PhDs come to BRF and get inflicted with a strange disease called PhD-ities.. A number of inflicted PhDs told me this

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 25 Feb 2010 18:48

Jagan wrote:PhDs and BR dont mix together - it is a proven theory that PhDs come to BRF and get inflicted with a strange disease called PhD-ities.. A number of inflicted PhDs told me this

Absolutely false ! Elaborate your assertion if you feel it is true in any manner. I strongly disbelieve it.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Feb 2010 18:54

I am not too sure what is wrong with you guys.

First and foremost he is not a Ph. D as YET. "soon to be". Thesis stage. Technology Strategy that too. Imagine. The rate at which technology changes his thesis strategy HAS to change every day. Will never get done ................

Just thought I will get my post in before Ramana cleans up this thread.

But, just realized that the clean up would occur only if the member (????) edited his post out!!!!!

You guys have perhaps chased a guy/person who may save an entire nation - by sending them to be Paki POWs.

Anyways, we need to get back to MMRCA.

Continue jokes in the joke thread please.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 25 Feb 2010 18:59

^^ NRao ji! Just as I was about to post my qualifications here you say we need to get back to MRCA.

If only I had a PhD I would understand how right you are.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 25 Feb 2010 19:01

Jagman is right

A lot of PHds for no apparent reason have donned the soosai vest

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 25 Feb 2010 19:04

Oh! was that Typhoon!

Saw one today afternoon, didn't look like LCA. But it wasn't slient, it made lot of sound before it was seen. It flew at a good height too.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 25 Feb 2010 19:19

symontk wrote:Oh! was that Typhoon!

Saw one today afternoon, didn't look like LCA. But it wasn't slient, it made lot of sound before it was seen. It flew at a good height too.

Are they still here? I thought they would've been safely tucked away & recuperating from their hectic trials, back home in the German garages... Luck you

(if it was indeed the EF)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Feb 2010 20:18

symontk wrote:Oh! was that Typhoon!

Saw one today afternoon, didn't look like LCA. But it wasn't slient, it made lot of sound before it was seen. It flew at a good height too.

Lots of activity at HAL this afternoon. 2 LCA takeoffs, 2 Eurofighter takeoffs, 3 Hawk (Yellow) takeoffs and 2 Kiran takeoffs. And a Peacock painted Dhruv.

AnimeshP · Post by **AnimeshP** » 26 Feb 2010 01:11

nitinm wrote:I have irrefutably a upper hand on this, being a soon to be PhD from a world leading university in Technology Strategy.

me too .... me too .. I too am a PHD ... and a lot of my friends are PHDs ... In fact I did a couple of PHD's in each semester during my engineering ...
The only thing ... in my college PHD stood for "Passing with High Difficulty" ... are you that PHD too ???

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Feb 2010 06:25

Heard about the fiasco with the Hawk - that the Brits gave inferior spares, did not supply proper equipment and then (of course) tried to pin it on the contract.

I doubt that will have a bearing on the Typhoon. Unless, of course, IF EADS wants to use inferior parts, made in India, because EADS supplied bad machinery to make the inferior parts.

This problem of ToT is getting to be a predictable pain.

Need more Ph. Ds, in BAe/EADS (and perhaps in Russia too), to solve this problem.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 26 Feb 2010 06:59

When IAF came out with 20 year old ASR for the HAWK Purchase, Bae might have gone to their old jets to provide spares has per IAF requirements

IAF and HAL cannot be given clean shit on Hawk matter they accepted terms put by Bae and got same service which they deserved ,we have to frame a good contract for MMRCA to avoid such kind of things if MMRCA gets delayed by a year or two whole project will get screwed up , IAF should consider only those jets which are in production other then those fancy things which are promised but never been interrgated yet (TVC etc )

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Feb 2010 07:39

That is a ridiculous argument.

In fact I would push to make "latest" a default within military contracts and put the burden on the supplier to show why he cannot provide the latest by default.

IF legalese trumps basic thinking of what latest technology is we have no hope. I would actually have planes made in their nation of origin and have sub system technologies made in India for Indian design.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Feb 2010 07:46

someone had written on it, perhaps shukla sir:

these multi billion $$ contracts are written up/vetted by a small legal cell
within the MoD not the armed forces. now this cell is both too small and too
unqualified to be handling such size and scope of contracts , neither they
understand what the equipment means.

so long as this is the route we take, all sorts of issues will creep in.

only way out is lay out some big $$ - hire some pvt law firms with experience
in international deals and law on contract basis and attach armed forces people
for a time to explain the technical details and make sure what armed forces
envision is in there on paper.

indian pvt sector does lots of deals abroad, these people (top lawyers) exist.
time to get them in.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Feb 2010 07:51

That is ALL fine.

However, here is what I would like:

First line in contract:

"Technology/sub systems/parts/tools/etc (as defined by us) will always mean latest and greatest. Vendor has the right to disagree in writing."

That, I would think, would force the burden on the vendor. Let them say, "no we will provide spares made in 1980", etc.

This Hawk stuff is too cheap: asking for a few million dollars. What the heck is that?

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 26 Feb 2010 07:54

The Mig-29K Induction galleries are up.
We need to caption and resort them but heck,take a look anyways...
Will try to sort things soon.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... kPanthers/

Kapil

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Feb 2010 07:56

Kapil wrote:The Mig-29K Induction galleries are up.
We need to caption and resort them but heck,take a look anyways...
Will try to sort things soon.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... kPanthers/

Kapil

Corrected

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 26 Feb 2010 08:07

NRao wrote:This Hawk stuff is too cheap: asking for a few million dollars. What the heck is that?

I agree.. seems more like damage control.. And this after our Russian friends have been defaulting on spares for years.. wonder how much they owe us. After the math I am sure we could get the additional 29Mig's for free

nitinm · Post by **nitinm** » 26 Feb 2010 08:28

Surely you didn't find anything interesting in what I wrote in the post because you are not interested in it!

Not me personally....but your disrespect for the highest level of academic achievement is a testament of your level of ignorance! For people who see PhDs everywhere, I would like you to show me one Technology Strategist in India for there are only ~50 in the world!

No doubt you have nothing worthwhile to contribute to the forum other than latest news, some shallow "technical" information and "newbie bashing" remarks, none of which takes one bit of originality!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Feb 2010 08:47

I think for the Talwar delay the IN had placed financial penalty on Russian yard , but it was mutually agreed the financial penalty will be adjusted in the amount for the next 3 teg class frigate in development in Russia.

So we have imposed financial penalty on Russians for delays.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 26 Feb 2010 08:49

nitinm wrote:Surely you didn't find anything interesting in what I wrote in the post because you are not interested in it!

Not me personally....but your disrespect for the highest level of academic achievement is a testament of your level of ignorance! For people who see PhDs everywhere, I would like you to show me one Technology Strategist in India for there are only ~50 in the world!

No doubt you have nothing worthwhile to contribute to the forum other than latest news, some shallow "technical" information and "newbie bashing" remarks, none of which takes one bit of originality!

Are you from Mars mate?? Don't you get it?? I guess its too hard for a PhD like u.. All that the form members expect is some humility.. I have consciously refrained from making any comments coz it was not just stupid but an utter waste of time. Just when this thread was getting back on track..there we go again.. I don't think anyone on this forum has gone around bragging about their achievements.

Your lack of respect and superiority complex is absolutely astonishing! I think it is time someone does a PhD on 'you as the subject'.. And you know what to do if you PhD brain thinks this is a forum is not your worth?? I guess its too hard for you to understand..

I hope moderators take due not of your comments and common sense prevails...

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 26 Feb 2010 08:59

@ NRao, i think Singha is right contracts have to be fool proof ,Vendors have their own lawyers who will find loop holes in contract which are not framed properly and try to pass the blame , a year ago Ravi sharma fron THE HINDU had asked BAe Systems representative about issues regarding spares of Hawks ,and he responded saying "Spares were provided as per the contract " it only shows contracts were not framed correctly for which BAe tried or almost got away with its shoddy service

Commenting on problems over spares for the direct supply of Hawks, he said BAE Systems had “delivered all the spares that had been contracted for.”

http://www.thehindu.com/2009/02/16/stor ... 921100.htm

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 26 Feb 2010 09:32

nitinm wrote:Not me personally....but your disrespect for the highest level of academic achievement is a testament of your level of ignorance! For people who see PhDs everywhere, I would like you to show me one Technology Strategist in India for there are only ~50 in the world!

No doubt you have nothing worthwhile to contribute to the forum other than latest news, some shallow "technical" information and "newbie bashing" remarks, none of which takes one bit of originality!

Posts are evaluated based on their content, not on whether the writer is a PhD or not. One cannot take it as a gospel just because a PhD says so. As for some people, if they think people don't take their opinions well, they resort to these "I am a PhD blah blah blah". Was it sagarika ghosh who in response to a comment said that she was a stanford graduate?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Feb 2010 10:15

nitinm,

Bhai jan, there are plenty of Ph. Ds on this forum right now. Profs at top notch universities. There are others who have impacted millions in some area or another. So, if you have something to contribute, you are more than welcome. But, in all seriousness, I for one, have not seen much that is "original" in your posts. Not trying to knock, but, I have indicated this to you earlier too (before you posted about your Ph. D. stuff). I would encourage you to engage others, fully aware that others have read a lot and expect a lot from "original" posts. You are right that the level is not too high - but as I stated in a post to you earlier the MRCA thread has been there for about 8ish years. To a great extent we do rehash stuff (but that problem I assign to the GoI for reopening the "tender").

On "50 in the world" - great. BUT, a lot of stuff started in basements and garages. Great "strategists", with degrees and great experience have failed. Slippery road.

____________________________________________

OK. More imp matters.

@karan_mc,

I have to wonder if BAe knew about the contract and knowingly supplied what we term inferior product. IF that is true then they should be aware of Indian (or for that matter anyone else) expectationS. The question I have is an ethical one - perhaps - but did BAe deliberately write a contract knowing that they were supplying inferior product for a price that was expected to produce a top-notch air craft?

I happen to think they did.

Now they can hide behind a "contract" - and that is fine with me. Shame on the GoI/HAL/IAF/whoever for that contract, but shame on the BAe as a company. IMHO the nation of UK should be ashamed too, it reflects on their culture too. Seriously, if they think otherwise they should correct the situation. I do not like this idea of refund of money or some penalty for bad product. Take all of it back - that is OK.

However, I do not know what to think beyond that. India is limping and in no position to dictate beyond Billions on the table. And, other countries and their vendors care less.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Feb 2010 10:22

nitinm,

Do you, by any chance, have a published paper on a topic that we may be interested in - that you would like to share? (Be ready for some punches too.) BR does publish too (FYI: it will reviewed before being published), perhaps you can contribute?

sunnyv · Post by **sunnyv** » 26 Feb 2010 13:23

One thing i want to ask all gurus - IAF has been saying it wants to be network centric force. How can we do that without commanality????????.
We have Russian planes with GLONASS support others have GPS i assume [su have interoperability among each other but mig29 dont] ,
Mirage and Jags have GPS as per my knowledge.
I assume su cant relay data to M2k or Mig29 directly as two su can do to each other,
similarly AWACS is again non russian how each one integrate with each other and to our own satellites.
IS it possible that all data what MRCA's AESA will get on its screen will be delivered directly to our su30 screen also,i mean in flight directly

This part of integration lies with whom - IAF or company from whom we will purchase.
Also is it possible since su30 has open architecture will it fire A METEOR along with AA-12.