AeroIndia 2011

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Feb 2011 17:35

biswas wrote:How exactly is that Maruti meant to fly?

I don't know how but at the moment it is 3000 ft above sea level. that's good enough for a passenger car.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 12 Feb 2011 17:37

There was a news report on TV that MSDhoni was at Aero India.
I think I saw BR members with him there

oleonau · Post by **oleonau** » 12 Feb 2011 17:40

Singha wrote:cough cough boys, today morn the traffic jam started from hebbal itself. lots of policemen posted to keep cars moving and service lanes clear. the public parking lots seemed to be quite far with long lines both there and a km long line at main entrance. we reached at around 10.15pm and saw the surya kiran display from the car. I didnt bother to waste time in hot sun trying to gain entry but parked comfortably in service road and village area just after end of runway. 100s of cars were already parked there. its the spot where planes turn into or out of runway after a pass so it was not bad...very wide FOV and clear view. villagers were crowding rooftops and quite decent - nobody was charging extra for food and drink.

here are the 17 best of what I took, with a low end 55-200mm vr lens and handheld.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/33097132@N ... /lightbox/

I fear the people stuck in that queue missed the morning show altogether..the tejas came up just about as we parked and took position. hope the managed to stick it out until the 2-4pm show.

impressions -
- tejas looked powerful but not pushing the envelope as expected
- F18 was a bit slowish in its moves
- Gripen/F16 was very fast in its passes (couldnt take a decent pic due to this, and looked plenty more agile)
- Rafale fell somewhere in between and very beautiful
- F16 and Gripen were both fast and sneaky, almost soundless on approach but growling as it passed you
- Sukhoi was noisy and showed its usual "standing motionless" and 360 tvc rotation thing
- every plane made on slow speed pass to show its handling, in this the f18 was good...almost standing still kind of.

but the EF caught my eye as the most perfect example of fluidic motion, aggression and instability...it made some really low passes and helped by releasing white smoke for most of its routine. clearly an a/c that can do 2 x 360 barrel rolls without even thinking about it....amazing...
its my new favourite mrca plane

Great Photos

However like last time (AI09), the F18 flies with stores (higher wing loading) as opposed to others who are clean...
though all would be using tricks to strut their stuff Partial refuelling/ FBW software tweaking and Engine modifications
but Hey all is fair in love and war

was the run in direction of the slow speed run the same for all aircraft??

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Feb 2011 18:44

^ yes, it started on western end of yelehanka and ended over the national highway followed by a climbing left turn. for safety reasons I think they do the displays flying over the runway and over a wooded villagey area opp side from the main apron and exhibition, 1000s of people had moved into every vantage point in the area to get a view. police were not allowing anything to stop on the main highway and gawk though.

the EF did fly with a lot of PGMs during Farnborough last year, used afterburner most of the time but really moved quick. the F18 was not carrying heavy ordnance today. I have no idea if this is its usual speed to do airshows so that people can see better. the F16 was quite doing it fast - too fast for even 1/1000 sec shutter speed with flying perpendicular to me....

I think one needs a 500mm lens with a wide aperture (ie a pro lens costing >1L) to make a serious attempt at photography at these airshows. a monopod and elevated vantage point might help in panning smoothly. a handheld not-so-zoom lens is barely passable.

also my camera being only 6MP (old d70) I missed out on pic size during cropping, which a 12mp new dslr would have handily done.

next time I hope to to have a better dslr body and intend to take 2 tall cans of cold beer hidden inside a steel thermos. seems more convenient to me to sit on the roadside and take pics.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Feb 2011 20:32

The big Q is how they fly with weaponry!
Now Tell-us has written in a mag that the IAF must not waste money on expensive 4th-gen tech,but buy the cheapest 4th-gen fighter of the lot and use the mioney saved in the 5th-gen projects.The game has changed with the arrival of the J-20.The same thought,before the J-20 arrived was also from a former COAS,forget which one wiriting in F mag I think,that we should buy the most cost-effective fighter.

In respect to the above,one military mag had the costs of the contenders given along with their parameters.The cheapest was the MIG-35 at $38.5 m,next came the Gripen/F-16 at around 45/50,with the twin-engined Eurofighters $75/80+,F-18 $58?,if I remember correctly.There's such a pile of mags,etc. from the show apart from the ususal def.j's to go through ,will take a few days.Assuming that the figures are correct,If one can get two MIG-35s for a Typhoon or Rafale,which one would the IAF recommend/buy?

Skanda · Post by **Skanda** » 12 Feb 2011 20:41

Quick question: Is there any restriction on carrying food or water to the premises. Or should we buy both of them within the premises only?..

I just dont want to get fleeced by the abnormal prices being charged there.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Feb 2011 21:38

technically no outside eatables or drinkables allowed.

Philip sir lets skip the Mig35.

Gripen/F16 at cheaper end
F18 in middle
EF/Rafale at higher end

to me a decent middle ground would be the F18 - not the cheapest but not the costliest either. needs no further years of development to meet the ASR. the powerful new EPE engine might overcome most of its perceived sluggishness vs the eurocanards.

btw today it was flying with 2 wingtip aam, 2 amraam,2 bombs - around 1 ton. the rafale had two wintip aam. none of f16/gripen/tejas/sukhoi/EF had any ordnance at all.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 12 Feb 2011 21:56

shiv wrote:I had a long conversation standing next to the Kaveri. I forgot the jargon used but the Kaveri is basically ready in terms of ground tests - but it has to pass tests to show that it can withstand the rigors of flying when attached to an aircraft - such as sudden starvation of air during a maneuver. The Kaveri team in Russia would like to speed things up but Gromov Flight Test center has a great deal of experience with engines and do not allow wanton speeding up - and ask that all data from each test be carefully analysed before the next flight. The engine has met expectations so far.

The Kaveri will definitely fly on the LCA. GTRE have apparently collaborated with HAL to make sure two LCA airframes will be available for flying the Kaveri. But this Kaveri will not power the AMCA. The AMCA will have to await the Snecma-Kaveri JV. The basic changes in Snecma Kaveri were anticipated on this forum years ago by vsunder - when he heard what GTRE was asking. Pardon me if my terminology is wrong but the man, whose name I can't recall indicated the front of the engine - the "Low Pressure Turbine" I think and said the current pressure ratio is 3.4: 1 and that has to be raised to 4:1. Secondly the inside of the engine has to burn hotter. Snecma say that any transfer of blisk tech will take a decade. Having said that there was a an SDRE blisk on display and that blisk seems to be part of a new UAV engine being developed. I have images/video that I will post in due course.

The LCA is 6950 kg. I could not get much info about weight reduction. The fuselage lengthening of Mk2 will be behind the cockpit. I was told that the Mk2 cannot be lighter than the Mk 1. The Naval LCA is coming on "well" and will fly this year, but Mao was too busy talking to Adm Arun Prakash and Cmde Balaji and I could not wait. The ADS too is progressing Mao mentioned that there is close coordination between the ADS people and the NLCA people regarding what the NLCA will specifically need wrt operating off the ADS. But it is still too early for the NLCA team to put pressure on the ADS people - though both programs will eventually converge.

AMCA has got 100 crores sanctioned and te people were confident of meeting the requirements by 2017 - but they had no idea if the Snecma Kaveri would be ready by then. The Kaveri man said that he was not in a position to give dates for Snecma Kaveri and said that was in the hands of GoI.

Before I forget - a word about the range of Brahmos. The range can go up to 450 km if the altitude of the initial flight is modified from the current value to something like 17 km. More later as my memory throws up titbits.

Already answered by Kanson, but Tejas empty weight is 6560 kgs.

Every year at AI is frustrating for me and this year was the worst. AI many editions back had already grown to be too big for a one day visit. This time I covered even less than last time. Even though I reached by 9.15 in the morning on the 11th, parking was very inconvenient this time around - in the domestic area on the other side of the NH. So I parked the bike there (no car this time around for this SDRE) and lazily decided to wait for the bus, a BMTC one. Which came and the crowd piled on only to sit still for 10 minutes. Then we moved, took the subway and went to the other side. Then a longish walk to the security counters, a quick X-ray, ticket check and I was inside. Only to learn that they started the displays around 9.30. As a result I missed the three Dhruv, 2 paras, 1 gypsy demo. And a demo of some small air club trainer which I couldn't catch the name of. But I was ready for the first fast jet, our very own Tejas! Nice moves, but of course nothing as aggressive as the Eurofighter and the Gripen, understandably since the envelope hasn't been opened up fully yet. But it was very nice and a treat to watch. I like the F18 display as well, slow speed capability seems very nice. I think the F16 'knew' it had already lost - lacklustre moves. The Eurofighter was the best. Followed by the Gripen. They are seriously good. Silky moves designed to show off their capabilities. The IJT display was also good, this time by a certain Malik and not the usual one by Baldev Singh.

The Red Bulls flying display put me to sleep, until their slow speed capabilities started to tell. It was amazing. But the best of the lot was the SuryaKirans, drew the most applause. From the exhibition area, some of the crossovers look like they missed each other by a large distance, from the ADVA it must have looked like a very, very near miss. After that I presumed that the flying displays were over for the morning so I went inside. And missed a fast jet which I assumed was the Rafale. Drat!

The static display was OK from the areas I had access to. Only the Mirage 2000, Su 30 MKI, Tejas Trainer and the Hawk from the military fast jets. No Mig-29, Jaguar, Harrier or 21/27. And tons of civilian aircraft. A nice C-17, an Omega Tanker KC-10 and another 4 engined USAF aircraft (which I could not identify), besides the Gripen and F16.

The meat, as usual, was inside.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 12 Feb 2011 21:57

Singha wrote:technically no outside eatables or drinkables allowed.

Philip sir lets skip the Mig35.

Gripen/F16 at cheaper end
F18 in middle
EF/Rafale at higher end

to me a decent middle ground would be the F18 - not the cheapest but not the costliest either. needs no further years of development to meet the ASR. the powerful new EPE engine might overcome most of its perceived sluggishness vs the eurocanards.

btw today it was flying with 2 wingtip aam, 2 amraam,2 bombs - around 1 ton. the rafale had two wintip aam. none of f16/gripen/tejas/sukhoi/EF had any ordnance at all.

Tejas would have had two CCM in the outermost hardpoints. Either R-60 or R-73, I did not catch which one. A totally clean Tejas will not be risked in an airshow.

pyogi · Post by **pyogi** » 12 Feb 2011 21:58

Another Photo Thread,
I will put in different views of specific Aircrafts for your analysis if you want specific views let me know i might have it in my db.
F 16 top view

F16_DSC0817 by photoyogi, on Flickr

F16 Bottom view

F16 Bottom _DSC0416 by photoyogi, on Flickr

Will be adding pix to the same thread as i process the images

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Feb 2011 22:11

The F-18 is fine as a gap-filler,in fact all of them are,but at what price? The latest news that from 2012 the SU-30MKIs are going in for "deep upgrade" indicates that the level of futuristic tech/features that the IAF wants will encompass Flankers,FGFAs,and AMCAs.The development costs for these three programmes will be exceptionally heavy and cost overruns are more than likely.Since the MMRCA acquisition has always been seen in the context of extra multi-role numbers since the LCA haS failed to arrive on time,and in below par performance as expected,with its own MK-2 developmental costs to be factored in,any money saved in the MMRCA contest will be very welcome and crucial factor in the final decision.

The F-18SH has two major hurdles to overcome.first the tech transfer and Congressional approval.If we refuse to sign on the dotted line as the US wants us to do so,then the SH is dead in the air.The US is most unlikely to come dwon from its pedestal/throne! Secondly,the price factor vis-a-vis the Gripen,if one wants a non-Russian bird,will also be crucial.If the SH has an extra $10m to its pricetag in comparison,forget about it.

The third factor unrelated to the F-18S's chance is the arrival of the J-20.It cannot be ignored.It will be superior to any of the 5 contenders and no matter how much they are tarted up later on,will be inferior to it.China has stolen as much of 5th-gen tech as it could from the US and west in systematic operation,with thousands of PRC agents picking up lite by little pieces of the stealth jigsaw puzzle.In Germany,some Chinese spies spent just a couple of weeks in selected/targeted German companies and then disappeared with the whole caboodle of industrial secrets! In fact I would go so far as to re-examine the LCA MK-2 developmental timeframe and see whether it is really worth putting in lot of money to perfect a 4th gen fighter (indigenous though it may be) in a further elayed timeframe and instead begin work on the AMCA right away in a parallel programme with the FGFA which has advanced consideraby with prototype/s flying.Otherwise,the Mk-2 LCA will also have to feature a generous dollop of stealth and incorporate certain 5th-gen tech.being developed for the FGFA to remain relevant two decades from now.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Feb 2011 07:06

every one did rolls and such but only the Tiffy and Sukhoi came down to the treetops over the highway - the tiffy multiple times on afterburner giving that satisfying ear splitting rumble. the rafale as usual for the sneaky dhoti shivering french preferred to stay a higher level. the tiffy went all out...its a hell of a scary beast to come at you....I wouldnt fancy the chances of anyone against tiffy in a guns only cagematch.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 13 Feb 2011 09:55

PIB fotus of C-130J and Tejas

http://pib.nic.in/release/phsmall.asp?phid=33687

http://pib.nic.in/release/phsmall.asp?phid=33686

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 13 Feb 2011 10:13

Check out the maneuver @1:28
I have not seen anything like that, sort of going reverse in a cobra

And the recovery is simply awesome!

Singha sir.....Tiffy all the way!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Feb 2011 10:15

LCA Tejas in Aero India 2011

Reviewing the video gave me a pleasant surprise. The display was good. 3 loops 2 barrel rolls in the video below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkM0ZHMv7Gk

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 13 Feb 2011 10:39

And here gents is the queen of the skies....Full 6 minutes

The pride of India,undoubtedly the sleekest machine of our times.

I barely heard on the commentary in a TV-9 clip that this is the only aircraft which can fly in reverse....i.e. the exhaust of the engine can act as air intakes, while such an operation can play havoc on other engines....is that true or just DDM

Also, I dont know if its been discussed before but, whats so special about the AL31 engines emitting a blue burn whereas all the others have a orange/yellow flame?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Feb 2011 10:59

Sadly - this is all I got of the LCH, which landed soon after it took of for a display on the 10th of Feb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXiJxg26WKE

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Feb 2011 11:15

anishns wrote:[youtube]qnM7r0taOiE

Check out the maneuver @1:28
I have not seen anything like that, sort of going reverse in a cobra
And the recovery is simply awesome!

are we seeing the same vid ? all I see is a zoom climb to a half loop followed by an impressive recovery without coming down to complete the loop, demonstrating the EF's superb TWR.
no sign of a cobra or even a rat snake.

check this from 0:45 onwards to see what the cobra looks like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daOPK07baBw

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 13 Feb 2011 11:39

Gagan wrote:There was a news report on TV that MSDhoni was at Aero India.
I think I saw BR members with him there

Dhoni got inside an aircraft but didn't fly. Some actor flew in the F-16.
Ratan Tata flew in the F/A-18 Super Hornet.
MP Naveen Jindal flew in the Rafale.
who else?

Singh · Post by **Singh** » 13 Feb 2011 11:42

You didnt miss much Shiv Saar... It did a breathtaking off and I guess u have captured the rest.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 13 Feb 2011 11:43

biswas wrote:How exactly is that Maruti meant to fly?

That is the same question a bunch of monkeys in India-Srilanka border asked many many years ago. They were proved wrong.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Feb 2011 11:45

anishns wrote:

Check out the maneuver @1:28
I have not seen anything like that, sort of going reverse in a cobra
And the recovery is simply awesome!

Singha sir.....Tiffy all the way!

It seems like a khichdi of the bell maneuver and the Herbst maneuver. The Su-30 does a much more difficult maneuver called the Kulbit with ease.

It is interesting that the EF pilots write to the world that TVC maneuvers are almost good for nothing at yet they look for a future engine with TVC and showcase maneuvers closs to post stall maneuver.

If I love anything about the EF, it is its barrel rolls (0.43 -0.55). The Su-30 does tighter ones, but there is something about the EF which catches my eyes.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Feb 2011 11:53

Anujan wrote:
biswas wrote:How exactly is that Maruti meant to fly?
That is the same question a bunch of monkeys in India-Srilanka border asked many many years ago. They were proved wrong.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Feb 2011 11:56

indranil I saw no sign of tail slide in that one, a variation of the herbst if you ask me.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 13 Feb 2011 12:21

When SHQ made bad faces and complained heavily when I announced the plans to visit, I didn't know that the witch it piling on the jinxes!! Here are the random thoughts.

1. I believe I actually saw a tortoise pass our car stuck in traffic.
2. Parked at one place, Qd up to get into a bus, which crawled out into the highway, went past the AFS, took a U-turn, got deeper into the other side, and left us near some place near a big parking lot. It took almost an hour for that.
3. No one had any clue about the ticket. I had the online ticket and my companions had the real ones. Finally, we were directed to the rear of a kilometre long queue. THEN, thanx to the tenacity of my friend, a guard told us that the cash counter is free. So, I got in, shelled out an additional Rs1000 and got another ticket.
4. The guy at the counter tore off the map on the ticket, (which is so fine printed that I had to remove my specs and use the built in 5x magnifier to read) so, we had no clue what is where.
5. Every hall had a lot of crowds who just walk the aisles like zombies casting disinterested looks at the exhibits and exhibitors, so couldn't get into any.
6. Finally stumbled up to the viewing/display area. Could not really approach any displays, because several layers of people were standing, looking at things.
7. The couple of food counters (near Hall C) were so choked full, couldn't get anything to eat. Had to take the edge out with some ice creams. Later, someone setup a kiosk with biriyani packets, so didn't die of starvation. IF there was a food court, we DIDN'T see it.
8. Saw the afternoon show. By the end, the legs were all ready to break down.
9. After the show, dragged the companions back, because had to take the bus at 9:30, and my brother, who made the trip separately to the general public area, waned that the return might take 3 hours.
10. It took half an hour for the car to come from the parked place, go around the U-turn and come to the gate. That too because the driver is a smart one. Because of the same reason, the return journey took only less than 2 hours.
11. Finally, the bus was late by an hour. Had to stand cold and alone at a godforsaken place.

Note to self. Shiver your lungi when the SHQ make faces next time.

This is the first time I visit a def show, and my ignorance of identifying/recognizing things shown very well. While my companion was pointing out afsar after afsar, describing the patches/decorations and even talking to some, all I could register was some uniformed guys. Didn't make any sense into my dense head. I could recognize most of the planes that flew however. Felt very happy and proud about Tejas, thrilled about MKI, disgusted about F-16, which didn't do a limited performance Tejas did.

We visited only one hall, that too because we had a little bit of time before the airshow. Nothing interesting there, except some UAVs by Jagirdar.

Oh, and I forgot to take my camera!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Feb 2011 12:47

^ Dileep saar ha ha ha ha.

the typhoon does a slipping sliding corkscrew type turn/roll very well. all the mrca contenders can do it, but there is something in the typhoons looks or aerodynamics that make it look very effortless and natural - kinda like VVS 'easing' a ball from outside off stump to the midwicket boundary while others slog sweep it using sheer muscle. its very unstable "fluid motion" for lack of a better word. releasing a consistent trail of white smoke on its runs also helped to frame it nicely and show its corkscrew and turning motions...not all the planes did that.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 13 Feb 2011 13:04

Here is an overall presentation of AI 2011. http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/b ... how/190816
Happy viewing.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 13 Feb 2011 13:05

I found out the hard way years ago weekends are a bad time to visit AI...best is to shell bucks for bujiness pass and visit on weekdays preferably Thu or Friday. Again years ago there wasn't much crowd on these days as well but this time it seemed like a lot more crowded. Also got a feeling that exhibitors only "entertain" if you are either in a suit or in an uniform. Me dressed like a college dude didn't get too far with questions. As Shiv said, phoren companies don't really give you any juicy info. They tell ya pretty much what is displayed on the info board or on the brochure. I asked an Yehudi gentlemen if India has expressed any interested in P5...he gave a big shrug. I said "you don't know?" He repeated his shrug again...he then saw a ranked IAF guy approach the stall...ran off to greet him. I just could not find BEL or any of the DRDO stalls...and I am pretty sure I covered all of the hangars. ISRO stall was empty, CSIR/NAL stall...staff looked like they were ready to take a nap. Good that some of ya folks had better luck than me in getting info.

Spoke to a HAL rep about MKI radar upgrade...unfortunately he had as much info about radars as I did. He kept repeating that radar is Russian but HAL is doing the assembly. Two days of roasting under hot sun gave me a punch on my health condition. Just recovering now

Had opportunity to view aerial display thrice this week

Felt Tejas display was awesome on Thursday. Made some really fast fly-by especially on the inverted ones...I guess they decided to open the envelope a little bit after Monday's display

F-16 was the fastest with its knife edge passes and vertical climb. The rest were the same as on Monday. IJT was good but nothing spectacular...spoke to a couple of IAF officers (An-32 Nav folks) on Monday about Tejas & IJT. They were impressed by the performance put by Tejas but had disdain for IJT. Not sure why...thought IJT simulator was excellent. Shame about LCH tech snag...it did really put a good show on Monday...almost matched Sarang moves.

Singha saar...I think Rafale was doing everything the Typhoon did just a little bit more effortlessly. Anyway 2013 AI should be awesome for Tejas...full envelope opened

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 13 Feb 2011 13:23

The info board of DARE detailing multi sensor warning system.

1.) RWR frequency range between 1 - 18 Ghz.
2.) MAWS can detect 8 missile threats (Range 500m to 5KM).
3.) Laser warning system(LWS) can detect 8 laser threats (RAnge 500 m to 15 km).
4.) Entire suite evaluated on an AVRO.
5.) Uses mil-1553 bus.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 13 Feb 2011 14:30

Happy viewing http://aeroindia2011pics.blogspot.com/

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 13 Feb 2011 14:37

Gurus,
Why were the Sarangs performing in 3 ship formation instead of the usual 4 ship formation???
Can someone answer this please.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 13 Feb 2011 14:39

It was 4 ship performance...I think some of the maneuvers included just 3 of them

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 13 Feb 2011 14:41

negative sir...
the show that i caught yesterday had just 3 ships from the start. Hence my question sir

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Feb 2011 14:46

one could be down for repair. I spotted one today afternoon sneaking into HAL apt right after a big white exec jet type thing landed.

chiragAS · Post by **chiragAS** » 13 Feb 2011 14:54

this was my first visit so don't know if aero india is always like this. airshow and all fine. but leaving aam janta in exhibition hall before the Open day is kind of too much. the guys at the stalls are already pissed off. jingoes who want to do some research has to push around ( bhai sahab hato hato. (it looked like railway station)

business pass should be for serious business or for jingoes

rest all can come on the last day to do the timepass

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 13 Feb 2011 15:00

Just Back home from Aero India 2011
Was there for the first 3 days and will be posting my pictures as soon as possible

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 13 Feb 2011 15:22

Err...where are the two Raptors US was supposed to fly for AI?! Also conspicuous absence of PAK-FA models at Sukhoi stand or did I miss them?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Feb 2011 15:34

Outdoor scenes from Aero India to capture the general ambience on a less crowded day - 10 Feb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgQEdxWBI64

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Feb 2011 15:37

Bala Vignesh wrote:Gurus,
Why were the Sarangs performing in 3 ship formation instead of the usual 4 ship formation???
Can someone answer this please.

Odd. The Sarangs did not perform at all on the morning of the 11th

Vivek Raghuvanshi · Post by **Vivek Raghuvanshi** » 13 Feb 2011 17:09

Chinese J - 20

http://www................./chinese-j-2 ... ght-31257/

What do you feel. What does India require to match Chinese J - 20