Re: The US and China in Pakistan - their respective roles
Posted: 11 Aug 2011 21:37
Not ture. Shiv's mission is to make Indians realise they are on their own and not get swayed by illusions.
Consortium of Indian Defence Websites
https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/
ramana wrote:Not ture. Shiv's mission is to make Indians realise they are on their own and not get swayed by illusions.
That is not the point. The point is that Pakistan-China together and US behind them are ganging up against India.shivajisisodia wrote: Not ture. Shiv's mission is to make Indians realise they are on their own and not get swayed by illusions.
I know his mission. I have read his posts. He is a nationalist. I like a lot of his views. I also agree with him and you that Indians are on their own. But which country is not on its own ? In international affairs as in life, it is a given. In fact, in our Hindu philosophy, it is a common saying, that a man comes alone and leaves alone, meaning that he should not get too attached to even his closest relatives.
But to say that we are on our own and to find enemies in everyone are two different things.
If it is true, and I am not sure it is, that Pakistan-China and US have together ganged up against India, then the question arises, what is India going to do about it ?Acharya wrote:
That is not the point. The point is that Pakistan-China together and US behind them are ganging up against India.
Hence India being alone is very significant. It does not mean that other countries in the world are not alone.
India is alone trying to survive this adversary combination on border dispute, nationality and general trade.
China and Pakistan, singly and in unison, have been strongly opposed to the overall evolution of a United States-India strategic partnership and more specifically the US-India civil nuclear deal. China and Pakistan are engaged in an ongoing frenetic rearguard action on Capitol Hill to scuttle the US-India nuclear deal. This was expected, and also that they would drive a subtle but determined campaign to wreck the US-India civil nuclear deal. Their reasons being strategic, as a strong US-India strategic partnership checkmates their strategic ambitions, which in any future perspective are not US friendly, to say, in the least.
US Congress Policy Attitudes Towards India Need Re-invention
It is suspected that many members of the US Congress still continue to view India in Cold War perspectives. Here one would like to add that those Cold War perspectives of India were patently wrong.
While deciding their vote on the US-India civil nuclear deal, the Honourable Members of the US Congress need to themselves answer the following questions:
Has India ever been in military confrontation with the United States like China (Korea, Vietnam)?
Has India like Pakistan indulged in WMD proliferation or was complicit on the 9/11 bombings?
India is a global power in the making, politically stable, economically resurgent and a vibrant democracy. With such credentials, do US lawmakers seriously believe that with a US-India nuclear deal in its pocket, India would turn out to be a long range threat to the United States?
The answers to all the above is a big and resounding NO.
As this author has written elsewhere that the basic problem with the US Congress is that for far too long, it had dealt with near-equal powers like Russia and China, who were confrontational in their stances towards the United States and with clashing strategic interests.
For the first time in history, the US Congress is being faced to deal on a strategic matter with an emerging near-equal power like India which is not confrontational to the United States, nor has India had any history of confrontation with the United States.
And therein lies a perplexing challenge for the US Congress in de-ciphering India’s future strategic intentions and its future impact on United States security.
The answers to the above stand asserted in the testimonies of US Secretary of State and other officials of the State Department before the Senate and House Committees.
As the United States and India embark on the path of a long range strategic partnership, the US Congress needs to re-invent its policy attitudes towards India. The US Congress would need to learn that commensurate with India’s attributes of power, size, location and military capabilities, the US Congress would have to be more accommodative and respectful of India’s strategic sensitivities.
The US-India strategic partnership is an exceptional partnership in the making and hence the US Congress also has to adopt exceptional policy attitudes towards India.
ramana wrote:India is doing many things. Some observable and others not so.
The effect on Sino–Indian relations
The Sino–Indian relationship is worryingly ambivalent. On one side of theequation we see a flourishing people-to-people relationship underwritten bywhat is projected to be the world’s largest bilateral trading partnership sometimebetween 2010 and 2020. In the past four years, trade has grown at a phenomenalaverage of 52 per cent to a total of US$25.76 billion in 2006/07; trade is on trackto being worth US$40 billion by 2010 (Acharya 2008:10).China and India have also made a mutual decision to set aside fighting abouttheir disputed border while the two giants develop their economies and enterworld markets—known in the case of China as the ‘peaceful development’doctrine. In 2005, the two agreed on a set of ‘guiding principles’ to govern bordernegotiations. There is a flourishing process of two-way visits, even at the seniormilitary level, culminating in the visit of president Hu Jintao to India in late2006 and the reciprocal visit of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to Beijing inJanuary 2008. In recent years, China’s image of India has evolved from that of a weak country of no real consequence to what the Chinese call a ‘comprehensivenational power’.
2
This is not, however, a simple relationship from India’s perspective. India’strade deficit with China has been growing and now stands at more than US$9billion.
3
As Chinese imports increase into what should be a labour-intensive
57
Sino–Indian relations and the rise of China
manufacturing country, the vaunted trading ‘revolution’ could look lesspromising from the Indian perspective. India asserts that China is dumping largequantities of manufactures onto the Indian market. New Delhi has refused vitalChinese investment in key areas that it considers to be security risks, such astelecommunications and port development. It continues to deny China marketeconomy status and resists China’s offer of a free trade agreement. Clearly, thisis a country that lacks confidence that it can meet the economic challenge posedby its giant neighbour.The issue of the contested border can also be presented in negative as well aspositive terms. China’s ambassador to New Delhi shocked India two days beforeHu’s visit by asserting that Arunachal Pradesh—a populated part of India—wasstill disputed territory. The Indians were of the view that China had previouslyconceded that it belonged to India. The Chinese reversal could simply have beenviewed as tough negotiating tactics in Beijing, or it could have reflected Chineseconcerns about Tawang, in populated Arunachal Pradesh—the birthplace of the sixth Dalai Lama. It was, however, perceived in New Delhi as ‘disingenuousyo-yoing designed to keep India second-guessing and on its back foot’ (Aiyar2008). According to the Indian version of the 2005 guiding principles, Chinaalso breached those principles in laying claim to a portion of land containing asubstantial, settled population. It caused India to question seriously China’sveracity as a negotiating partner and possibly to wonder how China might behaveonce truly powerful.Closely associated with border issues is the issue of water. According toRamachandran (2008), China’s plans to divert 40 billion gallons of water annuallyfrom rivers in Tibet—especially the massive Yalong Tsangpo, which becomesthe Brahmaputra in India and subsequently the Megnad in Bangladesh—to theparched Yellow River Basin are causing considerable concern in India andBangladesh. The situation is exacerbated by the melting of the Himalayan glaciersthat feed the great rivers of Asia, on which 47 per cent of the world’s populationdepends. Ramachandran concludes that China’s plans mean it will ‘acquire greatpower leverage over India, worsening tensions between these two countries’.China’s growing footprint in the Indian Ocean, and especially in South Asia, isalso deeply worrying to a country such as India, surrounded as it is by vulnerableborders and volatile countries with which it is often at loggerheads. China isselling weapons to all India’s immediate neighbours except Bhutan andconstructing deep-water ports in Myanmar, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Pakistan.Although claims of Chinese military bases in Myanmar are exaggerated, Indiafeels surrounded in its own backyard.
4
India’s discomfort with China’s growing Indian Ocean footprint is expressedmost clearly at the official level in the Indian Maritime Doctrine, issued to thepublic in 2005. Having declared that the Indian Ocean is India’s ‘backyard’ and
58
Rising China: Power and Reassurance
outlining an ambitious schedule for Indian naval expansion in the Indian Ocean,the document cites China as a major reason for this expansion in the followingterms: ‘China has embarked on an ambitious military modernizationprogramme…the [People’s Liberation Army] Navy, which is the only Asiannavy with an SLBM capability, is aspiring to operate much further from its coastthan hitherto.’
5
India and China have also become locked in urgent competition for energy inthe Middle East, Africa, Central Asia and Myanmar. This sense of competitionhas become all the more urgent for India because of the poverty of its domesticsupplies of liquid hydrocarbons and its energy-intensive requirements formaintaining economic growth from a low base.Some observers assert that India and China have adjusted their competition forenergy such that they do not unduly compete in the same markets and inflateprices (Khanna 2008). India was nevertheless shocked to find that natural gasfrom two leases it had helped to develop in the Shwe field off Myanmar wassold by Myanmar’s nationalised oil company not to India, as expected, but toChina. This unexpected loss was likely due to pressure on the Myanmar juntafrom China (see Clarke and Dalliwall 2008; Lees 2006). Moreover, in seekingcompensation, India was apparently given sole controlling rights to Sittwe port,which it is developing—but this too was later overturned, again apparentlyafter pressure from China (Lees 2006).Although the
official
Indian position on China is positive, if one scratches thesurface, Indian commentary often quickly descends to visceral suspicion of China. Such commentary ranges from the prominent Indian academic BrahmaChellaney (2008), who asserts that in ‘order to avert the rise of a peer rival inAsia, China has sought to strategically tie down India south of the Himalayas’,and the commentary of officials such as Admiral Prakash, who said India wouldkeep a ‘close eye’ on China’s naval intentions in the Indian Ocean (OPRF 2005:9),to India’s Maritime Doctrine, cited above.
projected slowdown in China’s growth and a somewhat lesser slowdown inIndia’s.
Figure 5.2
Projected growth rates of India, China and the United States in marketexchange rates and purchasing power parity
As in Winters, L. Alan and Yusuf, Shahid (eds) 2007,
‘Dancing with Giants’: China, India and the globaleconomy
, World Bank and Institute for Policy Studies (Singapore), Washington, DC, p. 6.
.Obviously, such economic and defence spending projections depend onassumptions that ‘all things will remain equal’. There are several importantunknowns in the category ‘all things’.First, there is the issue of political stability in both countries. Commentatorshave argued persistently that India is both penalised and advantaged by thefact that it has remained a vibrant democracy. It is penalised in the sense thatits consensual decision-making processes mean that it has not been able to actforthrightly to develop its economy in the way that China has, enabling thelatter to maintain spectacular growth rates in the past three decades. Then again,India might in future be advantaged by the fact that it has already crossed theRubicon of democratisation, while China has not. That process, should it occur,could also be highly destabilising for China, with concomitant economiceffects—or so the argument runs.
1
This view of the future of China is, however, increasingly subject to challenge.For example, recent research by the respected Pew Research Center (viewed 28August 2008, <http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?Report ID=261>)shows that 86 per cent of Chinese people ‘are satisfied with the country’s overalldirection’. The Pew Center research was conducted after the riots in Tibet butbefore the May earthquake. The same question asked in 2002 elicited a favourableresponse on the part of only 48 per cent of respondents. It is also noteworthythat respondents reported far less satisfaction with their own lives than withthe general direction of the country. Moreover, the recent global downturnappears to have resulted in a significant decline in factory employment in China.Obviously, the data need to be treated with caution.
They do, however, give uspause to consider whether China is, indeed, inevitably bound to liberalise itspolity in the foreseeable future.Aside from the Pew Center’s research, there are other views being broughtforward to challenge the belief that China must inevitably confront a damagingcall for more democracy. According to Ma (2007), ‘The links between economicliberalization and political reform…have turned out to be much more complicatedand tenuous in the case of China.’At the same time as doubts are gathering about the inevitability of democracyin China, there is every indication that India’s politics will continue to be shapedby unstable coalitions and will be subject to considerable volatility, especiallygiven current energy shortages and inflationary pressures. India’s nationalelection, scheduled for May 2009, is likely to result in yet another weak coalition,one that this time might not last the full five-year term.
Balancing China and India–US relations
From India’s perspective, there is already a hedging quality in India–US relations,notwithstanding that New Delhi has made it clear to the United States that itdoes not wish to be a pawn in any balancing game against China, or any othercountry.
This hedging quality is evident in the evolving strategic relationship, which,significantly, was initiated in 1991 by the then Commander-In-Chief, PacificCommand (CINCPAC), and which has since developed powerful military–strategicovertones, with the apparent agreement of India.While there are many voices and motives in Washington directing the natureof the Indo–US rapprochement, at the heart of the relationship is the UnitedStates’ desire to create of India a major Asian military power capable eventuallyof helping to balance China’s rise. It is important to recognise that this ambitiondoes not necessarily imply that Washington believes it can win and maintainIndia as an ally, but rather that it will unsettle the power equation for China tohave another Asian power—and one that is already in competition—risingrapidly in military capability.The supposition here is twofold: first, a powerful India will be a more benignand pro-United States presence in the region than a powerful China; and second,if the United States refuses to give India what it wants—strategic parity withthe P5 nuclear states—then others, such as Russia, will.This desire on the part of the United States is a major factor behind the Indo–USnuclear agreement, which is not to say that other motives are not also present.The reason why the nuclear agreement is important is that it will be difficultfor the United States to support and build Indian power in some keytechnologies—for example, ballistic missile technology, anti-ballistic missilesand space—without first bringing India into ‘the nuclear tent’.This, then, is the deal—and where it cannot be done directly with US support,it can be done through the surrogacy of Israel, which has drawn increasinglyclose to India on high-tech military exchanges.That this interpretation is correct is suggested by statements by the BushAdministration of unambiguous support for India’s rise as a
major
Asian militarypower made at the time when the nuclear deal was first mooted. According toSecretary of State Condoleezza Rice’s policy adviser, this shift in US policy ismotivated by the fact that the United States’ ‘goal is to help India become a majorworld power in the 21st century’. He added, ‘We understand fully theimplications, including military implications, of that statement’<?lb?>(Rajghatta2005).
6
It is also explicit in the type of technologies being transferred to India—throughthe United States directly and through Israel. These include an ABM systemprobably based on the Israeli Arrow 2, in turn developed jointly with Boeingwith US technology. While Arrow 2 is an anti-tactical ballistic missile, Arrow3 will have an anti-MRBM capability. India is also to launch Israel’s new spysatellite in early 2009; a quid pro quo could be assistance with India’s ownmilitary satellite program, which will be especially important for its naval
60
Rising China: Power and Reassurance
targeting in the Indian Ocean and, eventually, a more sophisticated ABMcapability. Israel has also sold to India, with US permission (previously deniedto China), the Phalcon AWAC system. The United States has also directly soldsophisticated targeting radars and large naval vessels. The United States is alsoin the market for India’s new strike-fighter project.While the transfer of military technology is important, the deepeningmilitary-to-military relationship also brings with it the exchange of militarydoctrine, inter-operability and intelligence. This is very much an evolving,multifaceted relationship, albeit one focusing on maritime warfare. At its heartis a 10-year defence agreement signed in 2005 and a program of ever moresophisticated exercises, especially in the maritime sphere.None of this indicates, however, that India will enter any US ‘sphere’ or abandonits important relationships with other powers, especially Russia. While therehave been recent hiccups in the arms sale relationship between India and Russiato do with late delivery, escalating costs and poor supply of spare parts, therelationship is still of considerable importance to India and will not be easilydiscarded.Indeed, from India’s point of view, it can continue to conduct its strategy of ‘playing both ends against the middle’, as it has attempted to do, with varyinglevels of success, as a central plank of its foreign policy over many years. Withinthis pattern, however, it will likely ‘tilt’ somewhat towards the UnitedStates—the exact reversal of the situation during the Cold War.As time goes on, and given the hypothesis of a China that rises more rapidlythan India, this ‘tilt’ could increasingly take on an element of power balancing,whether New Delhi feels comfortable with that role or not. Nor is this label likelybe used in New Delhi.Of course, it needn’t happen that way, but the drivers of a more successfuloutcome will have far less to do with Sino–Indian relations and far more to dowith Sino–US relations and US–Russian relations. Should competition betweenChina and the United States intensify, China’s rise in Asia is unlikely to be aneasy one.As a ‘swing’ state in Asia—to use the term of the US Central Intelligence Agency(CIA)—India is therefore likely to be courted by a number of other rising powers.It will make the best it can of this situation in order to acquire the means tomilitary and economic power itself—whether it be Russian energy and platformsor US/Israeli high technology.
Conclusion
It is not at all clear whether China and India will rise equally. Indeed, it issomewhat more likely than not that China will continue to draw away from India
economically and militarily. Should this occur, India could seek implicitly (oreven explicitly) to balance China’s rise, either through an intensifyingrelationship with the United States or, less likely, with Russia. India is, however,unlikely to enter into any formal alliances during this process; and the ultimatenature and extent of this power-balancing arrangement will depend more onSino–US, Sino–Russian and Russia–US relations than it will on the relationshipbetween those three countries and India.While the best outcome would be something akin to Coral Bell’s (2005) ‘concertof powers’, such an outcome is not at all certain. Indeed, it is a ‘slippery slope’around the edges of a concert of powers arrangement that leads quickly to classicpower balancing. A concert of powers implies, among other things, that Indiaand China will be able to control and channel their emerging competition inproductive ways. While this too is a distinct possibility, I have tried to show inthis chapter that it is by no means a certainty. Indeed, there are some deep-seatedconcerns in India about a rising China and what this means for India’s positionin its sub-Himalayan backyard.
ramana garu,ramana wrote:I recall in WWI, US did not intervene until late in 1917 when GB was almost dead and swung the tide.
In WWII they did lend lease and extracted everything out of Great Britain and then entered the war. Even then they concetrated on Japan. It was Hitler who declared war on US and forced them to intervene in Europe.
So the NSAB elite is wrong in thinking that US will rush in to help India if in trouble. Western Europe did not believe that and insisted on trip wire troops in Germany during Cold War.
My take is China is a lizard pretending to be a dragon and if US goes with them they will bite and both will go down.
China is in stagflation:inflation without growth, Their markets are in coma etc.
So keep negotiating and building up your strength in all spheres:Economy, political and society.
Hmmm....!ramana wrote:They are also talking about the opposite deal. Rein in Dalai Lama/Tibet and let TSP-PRC take care of India. Why do you think there are so many meetings between US and PRC while not so many with India?
And why did MMS suddenly start talking like Mrs G?
It is about American economy and US politicsRajeshA wrote: Unless if it has to do with China buying more American debt!
But with China, they will be reinforcing the same downward spiral of cheap imports, trade imbalances and big borrowing!Acharya wrote:It is about American economy and US politicsRajeshA wrote: Unless if it has to do with China buying more American debt!
This is too simplistic. Just by engaging China and keeping the news filled with China and the next super power thye achieve global objectives. To keep US relevance in Asia they need engagement with China.RajeshA wrote:
It is about American economy and US politics
But with China, they will be reinforcing the same downward spiral of cheap imports, trade imbalances and big borrowing!
In fact I am not. I am only trying to show that the US too has limitations and that we need to understand that rather than imagine the US has power where it does not have much.shivajisisodia wrote: You seem to be in a mission to prove, by logic or illogic, that US is all hot air.
Of course I was once requested to convert to Islam, at which time I was asked to hold the same attitude towards Allah as I am asked to do wrt to the US.Om I believe that the US is the most powerful nation on earth, and has powers beyond what any other nation has. I respect and admire that power and will not question that power. If I am told that the US is invincible or that it is capable of doing things that I do not believe-I will still ignore what my mind tells me and accept the superiority of the US
ramana - in fact the idea of "balance of power" making alliances where an ally enters another ally's war was the sort of relationship that European states maintained with each other - and that eventually contributed to the world war because almost every nation on earth was allied with someone else , causing every nation to get involved in someone else's war.ramana wrote:Paul Kennedy in his Grand Strategy says Balance of power is a weak strategy.
I think a man of your intelligence got the gist of my message but gets emotional and defensive, thus offering an absurd defence like that. I would not even begin to respond to your equating my argument for not looking for enemies everywhere to Islamists attitude towards Allah. You know better than that, Sir and you yourself realize that your defence is not even becoming of a high school student. If you havent, please read both my posts in their entirity.Of course I was once requested to convert to Islam, at which time I was asked to hold the same attitude towards Allah as I am asked to do wrt to the US.
So, you have essentially ruled out any alliance with the US and the West, unless it is totally risk free and totally on India's terms. What makes you think they will go for it ? If you think they will go for it, please lay out a specific outline of your maximalist terms that you think they(US) will accept. Your posts suggest that unless US or any other country takes a position with is more "Nationalistic Indian" than the Indian Government's position, you will not be in favor of any alliance with them.shiv wrote: The idea that India can "ally" with the US against Pakistan is one that is fraught with danger for India unless we now exactly what we get from the US. The US may be dumping its weakness and fears on India - so they can get away clean. We don't owe that kind of help to the US. Imagining that an alliance with the US gives us "strength" may be pure bullshit. The US may need us more than we need them if they suddenly want to ally with us after all these years. We have to be ready to extract permanent concessions from the US as well as cast iron guarantees. The US is also the world's biggest seller of snake oil. Caution is the word.
You are 100% correct. But that does not change things in any way for India the nation in my view. To that extent this diagnosis of my psychological state of mind is worth only enough to explain to yourself and others why I write the way I do. Now that you have the correct explanation - I think I can move on without interruption of my frustration. I have no objection if you post this explanation about me in every post so that everyone knows my state of mind and will never forget - but at least you will not have to keep defending the US against my attacks. You know me well now. You are merely arguing with a frustrated Indian. You might want to consider moving on and talking to the more stable people on this forum rather than insist on according me more respect than you believe I give myself. Don't let my psychological state stop you.shivajisisodia wrote:
Let me try to accord you more respect than you have accorded to yourself in this one instant and attempt find a logical reason for your frustration with the US. I think your frustration has nothing to do with the US, but stems from the realization that India is not in a strong enough position to either go it alone or to strike an alliance, deal, agreement, whatever you want to call it, with the US largely on India's terms. You must know, we are all frustrated by India's lack of relative strength and we all would have loved to and yet love to see India being stronger, far stronger, even the strongest. But your frustration arising out of India's weakness causes you to lash out at everyone else who will not work with us (India) strictly at our terms, despite our weak hand, such as the US. Your frustration at India's weakness also causes you to lash out at anyone who suggests a common sense and realistic assessment of India's actual strength and tries to suggest a strategy that could lead to some sort of accomodation with powers whose first priority is not "Indian interests", by giving in a little, not because we love to "give in a little" for the heck of it, or because we are "dhimis" or because "we are slaves to the West", or because we are akin to "Islamists". I like to play the hand I have been dealt with today, not live in fantasy and delusion and try to work my way up, slowly, gradually, incrementally, taking whatever I can get at every step and consolidate, until I have the power to dicate terms to the US or anyone else.
You got it spot on once again mate! Congratulations. If the US does not go for it I will remain my frustrated, complaining self. Q.E.D.shivajisisodia wrote: So, you have essentially ruled out any alliance with the US and the West, unless it is totally risk free and totally on India's terms. What makes you think they will go for it ? I
You make it sound as if "frustration" is a derogatory term. It is not, particularly in your case. It is well justified. Infact, a lot of us, including me are frustrated by India's lack of relative power.Shiv writes - You know me well now. You are merely arguing with a frustrated Indian. You might want to consider moving on and talking to the more stable people on this forum rather than insist on according me more respect than you believe I give myself. Don't let my psychological state stop you.
Raj exercise across border(Pokh), Mullen PRC on NPeeTee.... US/PRC combo once agian. US all of a sudden desparate to reconcile with TSP. It all makes sense now... Well, some things dont change.ramana wrote:India is doing many things. Some observable and others not so.
Sort of...Things just got more complicated.... Email might be better.RajeshA wrote:Americans should just leave Afghanistan, if they don't have the stomach to fight! But sucking up to PRC and Pakis for saving face is simply pathetic! Old lover going to the new lover to let him have one last night with the whore!![]()
shyamd ji,
are we still going to be seeing any shock and awe over Baluchistan or not?
Sent you an email on yahoo!shyamd wrote:Sort of...Things just got more complicated.... Email might be better.
Ramana ji, can you please point me to which statement specifically?ramana wrote: And why did MMS suddenly start talking like Mrs G?
This may be a good strategyAmbar wrote: we'll be stuck in neutral gear for a long time to come.