The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 06 Jun 2011 19:16

http://outlookindia.com/article.aspx?272112

Not everyone is convinced that the PM should come under the purview of the Lokpal Bill. For instance, former Supreme Court chief justice J.S. Verma, who gave the permission to prosecute former prime minister Narasimha Rao, has expressed his reservations on the inclusion of the PM and the judiciary in the bill.

He feels the only way to get rid of the prime minister in a parliamentary democracy “is through the political process. The Constitution does not provide for President’s rule at the Centre. And an inquiry will take time and create instability in the country, which is not in the larger public interest”. Verma seems to have come a long way from the time he headed the bench that passed the judgement in the Jain hawala case that paved the way for the Central Vigilance Commission getting statutory status.

Officials in the prime minister’s office hold similar views. In a finely calibrated position, they say that the issue has spun out of control. “We trust the PM with our security, nuclear command and control; his judgement in war and peace; the financial health of the country, and yet have doubts about his integrity,” says a senior PMO official. Governance, he argues, is a “precarious balance between authority and anarchy”. And the Lokpal Bill and the heat it has generated, the official feels, amounts to anarchy. Adds another official: “The government needs authority to establish order. But by exposing the PM, who is the chief executive, we are prescribing anarchy and instability. Is that desirable?”

These officials also feel that the current structure for combating corruption adequately covers the PM. “As things stand,” one of them notes, “the CBI or even the income-tax department can investigate the PM. So why should we have a single behemoth with such unfettered powers investigating the PM as well?”

So what happens in a case like the 2G scam where the PM did raise issues about the controversial first-come-first-served policy with disgraced telecom minister A. Raja in UPA-I? But then he gave him a cabinet berth in UPA’s second avatar following the 2009 general elections. Would these actions make the PM culpable of criminal neglect? Would they merit an investigation? While a majority from the civil society feel that the PM should be accountable in such a case, many in government feel that the PM can’t be held responsible. “Governance in India is a complex issue. To hobble the PM on every case would bring governance to a grinding halt. Do we want such a situation?” asks a PMO official.

The last word goes to activist lawyer Prashant Bhushan. “During Bofors,” he says, “a case was registered and the PM was being investigated. Did it stop him? On the contrary, the nation went to war in Sri Lanka and the PM continued to take key decisions on a variety of issues. So I don’t buy these arguments. We need accountability at the highest echelons of government to combat corruption effectively.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 06 Jun 2011 19:39

There was no alternative: PM on police action

New Delhi: Breaking his silence on the crackdown on Baba Ramdev, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Monday justified the midnight saying that the police action was very unfortunate but there was no alternative. Manmohan Singh said, the crackdown is "very unfortunate but there was no alternative." He added that the Centre is serious about fighting corruption but there is no magic wand.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/there-was-no ... 37-64.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jun 2011 19:49

I think this thread should be moved to Strat forum as we have borderline Emergency type crackdown by UPA govt.

ravar · Post by **ravar** » 06 Jun 2011 19:55

Second and third that... ASAP. This ought to be out of burqa thread

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 06 Jun 2011 19:58

RoyG wrote:There was no alternative: PM on police action

New Delhi: Breaking his silence on the crackdown on Baba Ramdev, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Monday justified the midnight saying that the police action was very unfortunate but there was no alternative. Manmohan Singh said, the crackdown is "very unfortunate but there was no alternative." He added that the Centre is serious about fighting corruption but there is no magic wand.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/there-was-no ... 37-64.html

Vinash Kaale Viprit Buddhi !!

ramana wrote:I think this thread should be moved to Strat forum as we have borderline Emergency type crackdown by UPA govt.

Good idea to take the thread back to it's birthplace ...

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 06 Jun 2011 20:08

ramana wrote:I think this thread should be moved to Strat forum as we have borderline Emergency type crackdown by UPA govt.

With a new title. Suggest "Civil society protests: news and discussions"

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 06 Jun 2011 20:12

^^^

the idealist in me reiterates my proposal for the new thread name: "Search for dignity: Mass movements in 21st century India"

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 06 Jun 2011 20:13

madhu wrote:I do not believe "shoeing" is stage managed by cong. this will only put kang ress has bad light.

Here is the tweet from Kanchan Gupta who did some investigation:

Shoeman beaten up by Congress beat journos has interesting background: Worked for school and paper owned by Rajasthan Congress leaders.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 06 Jun 2011 20:19

ramana wrote:I think this thread should be moved to Strat forum as we have borderline Emergency type crackdown by UPA govt.

Does BRF have any contingency plans?

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 06 Jun 2011 20:20

Is situation that serious?

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 06 Jun 2011 20:32

Not at all. But you never know. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Jun 2011 20:51

BR-D followers should start doing the "gherao" of every Congrerssi crook in party and government whenever they step out of Delhi. Start with caging Digg-Dog etc and exten the courtsey all the way to Wise gal ripping Indian society apart.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 06 Jun 2011 20:58

MMS will sacrifice 9% growth and declare emergency? get real guys

This movement will go phuss in no time because of the lack of a credible opposition party to drive home the advantage. Lota purush, mithai purush et al have no leg to stand on while talking about corruption

Though I wish BR all the best, personally I don't see him getting anywhere because of too many vested interests of India is our dukan type people

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 06 Jun 2011 21:04

ignored ~Negiullah's advice and watched NDTV yesterday. Some congressi dog Social activist called Shabnam Hashmi made an allegation that she had information that RSS planned to set fire to the stage at 3AM which is why there was khaki-butchers action. Even BDutt found it hard to digest. Rudy who was representing BJP had a real go at her and his comments were similar to what I read on BR about NGOs and Social activists

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jun 2011 21:11

The INC supporters double speak is achieving Gobbelsian lows.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 06 Jun 2011 21:19

Dear mods

Please make it a thread on strategic forum rather than let this issue remain inside burqa.

Also as some one suggested above it could be named as : mass protest against corruption in 21st century.

BR is followed by think tank in several political parties (at least INC), there are often excellent inputs from several members, let them be read by every one.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 06 Jun 2011 21:20

To me this whole thing looks this way:

(1) BC votes are with BJP and SP in UP
(2) SC votes are with Maya
(3) Brahmins are currently with Maya but they may go with any winner or perceived winner
(4) What congress is trying is by using (making a wounded one as hero) Baba to divide the BC votes between BJP, SP and Baba
(5) In such a situation if Brahmins keep voting for Maya and not to either INC or BJP Maya will win a landslide.
(6) Congress want to deal with one party BSP rather than with SP and BSP.
(7) Alliance with Maya will help INC on a pan-India level in terms of dalit votes which is traditionally a congress vote bank (Jagan gets it in AP now)
(8) In addition, using another broker called Amar Singh, they created a party called a Peace Party in UP that is exclusively for Muslims. This is again to screw SP.
(9) Mulayam now will become someone like Paswan or Laloo. (anology: British finally dumped Mir Jaffar and Mir Qasims.)

But a lot of folks expects a backlash and some wishful thinking and the 1% chance is as follows:

(1) RSS makes a deal with an alliance between Baba's party and BJP.
(2) BJP may go with Brahmin CM while Baba may have BC as their CM candidate with an agreement of who ever gets more seats will have their candidate as CM. This will bring both Brahmin and BCs(minus Yadavs ) towards saffron front.
(3) Even if this succeeds the players will be Maya and BJP but with bulged BJP/Baba. INC is screwed as it is not a landslide for Maya and a sudden revival of BJP at national level. 30+ seats to BJP in UP is a nightmare scenario.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 06 Jun 2011 21:26

When is thread being transferred to the Strat forum? It should be called something like "Corruption and anti-corruption", and the 2G thread should be merged into it. Perhaps the 2G thread can be renamed.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jun 2011 21:34

No the thread will remain as it is titled. Am transferring to the strat forum as it is now the righ time.

Thanks for the views.

ramana

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 06 Jun 2011 21:34

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 06 Jun 2011 21:35

If renaming the thread, how about,

The Lokpal Bill - Anna Hazare, Baba Ramdev and India's fight against Corruption/Black Money!

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 06 Jun 2011 21:37

My Q to gurus ; could BR have got more mileage if he staged arrest (rather getting away in saree) or he did he really fear for his life at that point.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 06 Jun 2011 21:42

http://live.indiatimes.com/default.cms?timesnow=1

A good debate going on now ... Team Anna Vs. Government (Kiran Bedi, Mahesh Jethmalani, etc.)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jun 2011 21:52

munna wrote:This is Singur of Congress. Period

There are enough gullible minds to provide them utarkhands and charodies. Your "Period" will become three dots soon...

The movement everyone need to start is "right" sizing the GoI, right from number of seats to policy based democracy. If you go and do a census, I would be right. Most want only corrupt free practice and procedures, and don't mind reelecting the same fools over and over again. So, a setup to accept the fools, but does the chela job of riding the policies is what our type of democracy needs.

Now, I may be wrong if you only go to those gullible minds.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 06 Jun 2011 22:02

IndraD wrote:My Q to gurus ; could BR have got more mileage if he staged arrest (rather getting away in saree) or he did he really fear for his life at that point.

If someone tried to strangulate me I would construe that as a threat to my life, as did ramdev

Tamang · Post by **Tamang** » 06 Jun 2011 22:07

Rajdeep was trying to propagate "Sonia didn't know about police action, she is pained by the police action" theory. Arun Jaitely aptly replied that anything good happens in the govt is due to Gandhis and anything bad is because of the govt. Gandhis can do no wrong, they are always mislead to do things.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 06 Jun 2011 22:22

Sushupti wrote:

Chee Chee, DVS (short for DigVijay Singh) sees red in the face and is venting anger at a mango people representative who mustered courage to launch shoe missile.Shame on this DeViouS tactics adopted by Congress henchmen/spokesmen.

munna · Post by **munna** » 06 Jun 2011 22:51

SaiK wrote:
munna wrote:This is Singur of Congress. Period
There are enough gullible minds to provide them utarkhands and charodies. Your "Period" will become three dots soon....

Glad to be corrected and re-educated!

However, OBC and MBC rainbow coalitions are nemesis of INC since 1990s. BJP leaders managed to destroy their MBC mascots in fratricidal conflicts thereby ceding UP to Cong aligned backward caste outfits. A loss of 30-50 seats in Lok Sabha is enough to destroy chances of a revival at national level. Ram Dev needs to be hived off as OBC party and BJP needs to ally with his party to create a rainbow right alliance. The right in India is ripe for diversification and growth. Good luck!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Jun 2011 23:00

The Death of Democracy and Human Rights in India

Beginning midnight June 4, 2011, the capital of India, Delhi, witnessed the barbaric actions of the government exerted upon hundreds of thousands of peaceful Satyagrahis assembled at that time, sleeping in the Ram Lila ground tents. The brutality of the police towards thousands of innocent resting people, including children and women, revisited the atrocities committed by British rulers at Jallianwala Bagh. The people assembled were gassed, lathi-charged and trampled by thousands of policemen. Baba Ramdev was taken away to an unknown destination by the police.

The people who had come from villages, towns and various long distances were asked to leave the grounds immediately, at 2 o’clock in the morning. This cannot be a Democratic India; this cannot be Mahatma Gandhi’s India; this is not India governed by of rule of law and a democratic constitution, ensuring the fundamental rights of all.

These were the actions of people in power who do not believe in Indian values, the values of Mahatma Gandhi, and the declaration of individual human rights. India, which always gave shelter to the needy and helpless, was humiliated by the devilish acts of ignoble and arrogant rulers of the day. It was an act of treachery upon Baba Ramdev and his followers, who had come to present their demands against rampant corruption in India.

These cruel actions reminded us of the days of the 1975 emergency. Unfortunately, these brutalities were committed upon unarmed and resting people within close proximity of the Mahatma Gandhi Samadhi. We, the people of Indian Origin all over the world are deeply depressed, embarrassed and pained by this vulgar display of naked power. No justification of any kind can condone these vicious actions.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 06 Jun 2011 23:06

BJP leaders managed to destroy their MBC mascots in fratricidal conflicts thereby ceding UP to Cong aligned backward caste outfits.

Munna Ji, What happened to Uma Bharti's "Ghar Vapasi"?. Or is it that Vajpayee's heirlooms still blocking her?.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 06 Jun 2011 23:27

munna wrote:A loss of 30-50 seats in Lok Sabha is enough to destroy chances of a revival at national level. Ram Dev needs to be hived off as OBC party and BJP needs to ally with his party to create a rainbow right alliance. The right in India is ripe for diversification and growth. Good luck!

All the calculations that Pundits agonize over will go out of the window if EVMs are rigged.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 06 Jun 2011 23:48

Congress likens Baba Ramdev agitation to Babri Masjid event - http://rtn.asia/578_congress-likens-bab ... sjid-event

Beaten at Ramdev meet, Gurgaon woman struggles to live - http://mangalorean.com/news.php?newstyp ... sid=243172

NikhilB · Post by **NikhilB** » 07 Jun 2011 00:00

Digvijay Singh kicking journist video -
As I said earlier, this won't get linked to MMS or Sonia or Yuvraj, becasue it is expected from Digvijay singh to perform such acts and appease certian sections of community. Objective has been achieved.

It also shows the real mentality of congressi digvijay singh. The journalist at least showed some courtey by just showing shoe to congress spokeperson, and this congress secretary, actually kicks person as if some muhalla fight is going on.

I am sure that person will receive such terrible treatment in police custoday with special instructions from INC that no one in future will dare to go against congress. No humanity, no sensitivity, pure goonda raaj !! But hey, it's not MMS, Sonia and Youraj - because they are still such clean, aatam-ki-awaj-sunanewale, glorious leaders ! Wow...

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 07 Jun 2011 00:09

IMO govt did right thing. You can not try to overthrow a govt elected by democratic ways. Want to make difference.........fight in election and win to form govt. That is the way. What if Harami Gilani does the same with the help of other parasites and do the bhukh hartal to take Kashmir to Bakistan?

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 07 Jun 2011 00:11

Mahendra wrote:ignored ~Negiullah's advice and watched NDTV yesterday. Some congressi dog Social activist called Shabnam Hashmi made an allegation that she had information that RSS planned to set fire to the stage at 3AM which is why there was khaki-butchers action. Even BDutt found it hard to digest. Rudy who was representing BJP had a real go at her and his comments were similar to what I read on BR about NGOs and Social activists

Shabnam Hashmi was also on Rajdeep's cnn and made same allegations, incredibly Rajdeep asked Swapan Dasgupta to answer them, though Swapan ignored it contemptuously!

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 07 Jun 2011 00:12

It is interesting - When the 4 ministers met Ramdev at the airport, they first profusely thanked him for giving the statement that the PM should not be under the Lokpal, as Hazare & Co. have been demanding.

Later, at the Claridges Hotel meeting, Sibal was telling Ramdev that the govt would not accept any of his demands if Hazare showed up at his program.

So clearly the congress wanted to use Ramdev against Hazare (and also vice versa, maybe).

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 07 Jun 2011 00:14

rsingh wrote:IMO govt did right thing. You can not try to overthrow a govt elected by democratic ways. Want to make difference.........fight in election and win to form govt. That is the way. What if Harami Gilani does the same with the help of other parasites and do the bhukh hartal to take Kashmir to Bakistan?

rsingh, you should stop talking about democracy with present EVM system. Estimates are that without EVMs Congress tally would have been 70 seats lower.

Also, what do you mean "overthrow a govt". This was a completely non-violent protest against the looting of the couuntry.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 07 Jun 2011 00:19

If Gandhi was alive , he would also be going on "Bhook Hadtaal" and doing Satyagrah against corruption and black money. But he would have also met the same fate with policiya laathi breaking his feeble body. He must be thinking in his grave " Thank goodness , i fought against the British . If i were to fight against my own follower Congress party , i would be nursing my wounds in hospital."

NikhilB · Post by **NikhilB** » 07 Jun 2011 00:23

Pranav wrote:
rsingh wrote:IMO govt did right thing. You can not try to overthrow a govt elected by democratic ways. Want to make difference.........fight in election and win to form govt. That is the way. What if Harami Gilani does the same with the help of other parasites and do the bhukh hartal to take Kashmir to Bakistan?
rsingh, you should stop talking about democracy with present EVM system. Estimates are that without EVMs Congress tally would have been 70 seats lower.

rsingh, nothing personal to you, but isn't this typical argument from all WKKs that - if you want to change something, come and fight election, or do not do anything at all. We all know how electoral system works in India. Forget EVMs, even the way money,daru and biryani is distributed for votes, do you beleive everyone with humble background can win elections just with good intentions. And then that too once in 5 years.

Politicians have failed their duty and hence social workers had to come on streets and take things in their hands at least to raise issues for common people's awareness. What's wrong in it ? Doesn't it require more guts to work in such senarios rather aiming for career in politics !!

Comm'on we all heard of it all before. Yes, fighting elections is the next step. But we need to raise issues. We need to at least make people aware that there are some issues in status quo. We need to make govt and politicians aware that people won't take it lightly for every damn thing they do.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 07 Jun 2011 00:28

Injured lash out at docs, allege they were denied medical care
Himani Chandel/TNS

New Delhi, June 5
Raj Bala (54), a resident of Gurgaon, is fighting for life at GB Pant Hospital. Bala suffered neck injuries and broke her spinal cord leading to paralysis during the lathicharge by the police yesterday at Ramlila Maidan, the venue where yoga guru Ramdev was holding his indefinite hunger strike.

“She is undergoing an operation. But the doctors have said her condition is critical though they are trying their best. Nothing can be said as of now,” said Anil Malik, son of Raj Bala.

There were hundreds of patients, who were refused to get admitted to the hospital and were discharged without any medical checkup. According to those admitted, the doctors refused to see them after the police ordered them not to attend the patients.

The relatives of the victim said they waited for 4-5 hours to get hold of a doctor.

“We bought her to the hospital at around 1.30 am, but there was nobody to look after the patients. Many were seen loitering around in wait of the doctors,” said Anil Malik.

He said it was only after the pressure from media and opposition leaders that the hospital finally admitted his mother. “Had the doctors given her first aid, her condition would have been stabilised by now,” said Vikas, Bala’s nephew. “We also had to wait for half an hour to get the ambulance to shift her from one building to the other,” he added.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110606/main4.htm