India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

[sohels]

How does an aircraft that has a thrust ratio of nearly 1, fail to takeoff from anywhere? A fully loaded Boeing 737 has no problems in taking off from Leh.

[kmkraoind]

Assume that there is no farther pressure from Unkil, then only two European bards are in race. What will be armaments for Typhoon and Rafale.

A2A: (Assuming that Meteor has not entered production while birds are inducted in IAF)
Typhoon - AMRAAM, ASRAAM, Sidewinders, Python-5, Derby and Astra.
Rafale - MICA, Python-5, Derby and Astra

A2G (not counting long range stand off missiles):
Typhoon - Paveway family and Israel and Indian munitions.
Rafale - Paveway family, French AASM, and Israel and Indian munitions

The big question is, will US permits use of AMRAAM, Sidewinders and Paveway family on MRCA without a hitch. Most of western and Israel A2G weapons relies on US GPS and what will be impact of it.

IMO cost wise, American and Russian kits < Israel kits < to European family.

Can any gurus tell, what will the weightage of the armaments in final selection of MRCA birds. TIA.

[UBanerjee]

The dhoti-shivering early on in this thread seems massively overblown after reviewing the actual reactions of GOTUS + companies. Most has been from some think-tank spokespeople (most likely they promised that the deal would be closed for sure) and from various random journos playing up the loss of H&D.

There will be no wrath of khan over this thing, maybe some subtle measures will be taken. Wikileaks has actually reduced US bargaining power in many foreign nations including India.

[UBanerjee]

How does an aircraft that has a thrust ratio of nearly 1, fail to takeoff from anywhere? A fully loaded Boeing 737 has no problems doing this.

Length of runway.

[manum]

To be fair to the loosers even if they lost on technical grounds those technical grounds and test done were very IAF specific requirement and not meeting few of the 600 plus odd requirenments may not necessarily reflect its a bad product for every one , it simply means it does not meet IAF specific requirenment.

But as I understand it, a proven AESA and ground strike capability (multirole) were the two foremost IAF requirements. How then does the Typhoon make the cut and the F-18 doesn't? It cannot be on technical grounds, since the Typhoon lacked both during the time the trials were conducted.

or else others did too badly to not even take off in one of the day, or take enough payload, to act like a proper multi role aircrafts in specific conditions...
who knows what occurred, We all thought migs will fair well in the trials, as they most closely know how IAF operates, what points are crucial, and they didnt had a pentagon like bar to put what and what not...with working AESA...
they had opportunity to create a collage fighter specific to the MMRCA, even outdo other with Russian agility...but didnt happen...

till those 600+ points dont get released how do we know what happened, but they will remain top secret, except some bits, selective release...Guess they had some points of progressive merits, blanks to be filled in future...its where Europeans scored....blanks created the margins, even if few were more studious than Europeans...

for MMRCA armaments

http://www.vayuaerospace.in/images1/M-M ... ssiles.pdf

[Gagan]

I don't think that the process from now on is going to be simple.

I don't think that L1 is going to win here.

The process gets murky from this point forward. And L1 won't necessarily win.
consider the following statement:

we will consider lifetime costs also as opposed to flyaway costs

or words to that effect.

This will be a complex set of negotiations, where the extras that the two are willing to put on the table, costs, offsets, other deals and agrements and understandings that GoI wants to throw in the mix (hint hint), a little bit of ghoos to the party fund etc etc will all come into play.

The Air Force can't complain. They get one of the best two they selected. They will be present to negotiate the extra features that each will put on the table.
The Geo Strategists will have their agreements and understandings with the supplier nation(s).
HAL didn't have to move a muscle to build $10 billion worth of planes. I mean talk of government protection!
The DRDO walas get to do joint projects with the ouiropeans, learn a lot, put in their maal into the plane.
And there will be plenty of party-sharty, daaru-shaaru, for everyone and ghoos for the netajis.

Everyone happy!

Err,
When is the next defence procurement from videsh going to happen?

[Gagan]

How does an aircraft that has a thrust ratio of nearly 1, fail to takeoff from anywhere? A fully loaded Boeing 737 has no problems in taking off from Leh.

Engine output is not a fixed entity. The weight of the aircraft is constant.
Thrust ratio / engine output, and ability to fly / take off is affected by temperature, humidity, altitude, design etc etc.

The F-18 is built for carrier based operations. Meaning that it does well at sea level, its engines and airframe design are optimized for this environment. Put that plane in Leh / Avantipur / Srinagar - all high altitude bases, and suddenly it gasps for air (engine starves of air), it needs a longer runway to take off, it can't carry too heavy a weapons or fuel load while taking off.

What happens if the Chinese put a bomb bang in the middle of Leh's runway? All the F-18s deployed there won't take off. But a Rafale or an EF might.

For the IAF, operational deployment at both sea level bases, deserts and high altitude bases is a necessary requirement. What to do?

The Planes that made the RFPs are all excellent aircraft. Some are better at what the IAF wanted.

[manoba]

All this US of A and India strategic partnership is one big flying bat sh*t. Because there is no such partnership in the first place and it's all about Unkil's own vested interest, arm twisting et al.

With this $11+ billion deal and much more we are not going to solve Kashmir issue or secure UN Security Council seat or get Unkil's so-called-proverbial-protection from Chi-Pak region or control over Afghan region… oh no, nothing can we achieve through these deals. Only the arms vendor and their backers enrich their pockets (without paying any tax to states, of course) and invest it in more war machines and war makings.

The best strategy would be, now, make the Eurofighter ram and Dassault ram bang at each other and drink blood out of it and make a best of best deal. Both fighters are best in the block and our pilots deserve It.

Something says stick to Tiffy. The Frenchies are greed personified. Remember cryogenic saga with France, Mirage update and Scorpène deals.

Tiffy or Squall? Squall or Tiffy? The typhoon and squall begin. But, so far so good, it seems!

[sohels]

How does an aircraft that has a thrust ratio of nearly 1, fail to takeoff from anywhere? A fully loaded Boeing 737 has no problems in taking off from Leh.

Engine output is not a fixed entity. The weight of the aircraft is constant.
Thrust ratio / engine output, and ability to fly / take off is affected by temperature, humidity, altitude, design etc etc.

The F-18 is built for carrier based operations. Meaning that it does well at sea level, its engines and airframe design are optimized for this environment. Put that plane in Leh / Avantipur / Srinagar - all high altitude bases, and suddenly it gasps for air (engine starves of air), it needs a longer runway to take off, it can't carry too heavy a weapons or fuel load while taking off.

But we chose the same engine (GE F414) for our LCA? Also, here are the minimum takeoff distances I found:

F-18 - 1305 ft (398m) http://www.uscost.net/AircraftCharacter ... fa18ef.htm
Rafale - 1312 ft (400m) http://neohumanism.org/r/ra/rafale.html
Typhoon - 984 ft (300m) http://typhoon.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/tech.php

I'm not sure about the authenticity of these numbers and how they change wrt altitude.

[Prasad]

It is not just the engine that matters. Engine intakes are also designed keeping in mind airflow requirements. These are tremendously increased in rarified atmosphere of Leh etc. Thus needing longer takeoff runs to get up to takeoff speed. Engine output drops at hot and high conditions thus causing this as well as possible reduction in loadout of the aircraft.

[Manish_Sharma]

Well guys if you want to know about:

Ongoing X-Band AESA for Rafale
MMIC technologies current GaAs and future GaN based from Thales
Corechips and MEMs RF Switch
Future Shared aperture conformal AESA much like what is being done for PAK-FA/FGFA.

Thales components and technologies for T/R Modules -- Technical Paper from Y Mancuso of Thales Group

Thanks for posting this Sumeet, one of the big bonus these two companies can offer India would be to help us make GaN chips, which can help Tejas Mk2, AMCA & even PAK FA, Naval Ships, Air Defence Radar.

[rakall]

What Next:

Eurofighter:
- 4 Nation consortium, can tieup four nations for geopolitical influence
- we dont have big defence contracts with them.. Except for the few with Italy (obviously, Italy) & the HAWK one with UK is not big
- Platform dependant on American missiles for AA, Not fully cleared for AG
- Operated by KSA.. Paki pilots will have already flow them... in case of war dont be surprised if a few KSA EF's turnup for the service of their Muslim brethern.. Inshallah..

Rafale:
- We already have M2K upgrade & Scorpene deal with them
- AESA more close to operational than EF
- AA & AG munitions free of American inluence
- Better equipped for all roles (close to EF in AA, far better in AG)
- Very unlikely that Pakis will get a inside view of it..

France will sell Rafale to China if it makes business sense to them.. But, there is no chance of China buying either EF or Rafale.. that will be a regressive step for China.. they will press ahead with their Su27 copies; and thier indigenous stealth fighter even if it is inferior to Raptor/PAKFA, initially offsetting the advantage by producing large numbers.. and then anyway they will make a lot of improvements with tremendous speed driven by unwavering forward vision & decision making..

Rafale looks like the better bet for IAF.. But if we want to have more geopolitical leverage then Eurofighter has more advantage. The biggest advantage for EF is that Italy is part of consortium.

[Gagan]

DDM in full flow.

Don't bother clicking on the link> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkwrS1Tjbyc
Enjoy:




And France's plane is called the Regale

[shiv]

How does an aircraft that has a thrust ratio of nearly 1, fail to takeoff from anywhere? A fully loaded Boeing 737 has no problems in taking off from Leh.

Wrong info saar. Fully loaded with passengers maybe - but luggage and fuel and outside air temperature all come into consideration.

Watch this video and read the comments - one of which I will cross post below

This was one of the best flights of my life, bumpy but what a view! on the return flight we were delayed untill 1.30pm from 7.30am and as the air became so thin at 14000ft they couldn't get all our bags on the flight as the plane would've been too heavy to get enough lift to take off and we only found this out when our bags never came in Delhi! oh well good experience

My aunty Wikiben tells me the fully laden weight of a 737 is about 60 tons and empty weight about 30 tons. 150 passengers at 60 kg per passenger works out to 9 tons. The plane can be filled with passengers and take off with little cargo and half fuel that will get it to a nearby destination.

[Aditya_V]

Any chance we can get the French to speed up Scorpene TOT and M-2000 upgrade in order not affect the Rafale's chances?

[shyamd]

Yes eggjactly.

But GoI had better seal this one quickly.
The Brazilians might flip back towards the Rafale.

Brazil - Rafale didnt meet requirements apparently. It was the president who concluded the deal against the AF .

[abhik]

Seems Rafale has a lower unit cost compared to Eurofighter all things being equal , surprising for an aircraft that has lower sales compared to EF.

I remember reading in this thread some time back that 60 EFs were produced that(wouldn't that make it the most produced fighter?) year. This is compared to only 14 Rafales made every year, and still the French pay lesser for their aircraft than the Euros. So obviously economies of scale aren't helping the the EF. But when it comes to the Rafale, its production numbers will more than double if they win the MRCA (and possibly the UAE and Brazilian).

[Gagan]

Shyamd saar,
Is the Brazilian deal done and closed?
I don't think so yet.
They are still negotiating the 5 subs and 1 nuclear and Rafales, I think.
Everyone's pitching in there - the french are being stubborn, the americans are wining and dining and threatening, and the brazilians have a splitting big headache.

It is a soap opera much like ours is.

[shiv]

Any chance we can get the French to speed up Scorpene TOT and M-2000 upgrade in order not affect the Rafale's chances?

How will those affect the Rafale's chances?

[Pratyush]

Any chance we can get the French to speed up Scorpene TOT and M-2000 upgrade in order not affect the Rafale's chances?

I thought that the Scorpean TOT was a done deal, the M2k upgrade ought to be scrapped and instead use the eliments of the LCA to develop the upgrade in India it self.

Refale will be uneffected if the IAf goes domestice M2k upgrade.

[Aditya_V]

Any chance we can get the French to speed up Scorpene TOT and M-2000 upgrade in order not affect the Rafale's chances?

How will those affect the Rafale's chances?

It shouldnt but we push the French to be a bit more willing to share TOT faster to get the scorpene inducted. Also I am sure of the M-2000 upgrade which is also required fast, have we signed it or have we not signed it and Deal is closed. With Pakis having 63 F-16 with Block 50/52 standard. We better have all our Mig 29's and M-2000 upgraded, so that along with SU-30, Bisions and ground attack aircraftwe should make those 63 aircraft should be made non operational within a few hours of conflict.

Scorpene TOT was supposed to be a done deal, but due to delays in Sharing TOT and time taken for absorbing such technolgy the First sub is going to be done only in 2015.

[chackojoseph]

I was going through some past articles on FI WRT Eurofighter. I was really interesting to read. For those who want to read:

EUROJET'S EJ200 at Aero India Air Show 2009

UK shows support to Eurofighter Typhoon for Indian Air Force MMRCA contract

Eurofighter Supervisory Board meets in New Delhi for the first time

Indian aeronautical students to attend Eurofighter Typhoon supported International Aerospace Summer School

Eurofighter partners invest in India even before the MMRCA selection

Eurofighter Typhoon arrives in India for MMRCA flight trials

EUROFIGHTER and tanker aircraft lands at Yelahanka Air Force Station

Picture: India Air Chief flies Eurofighter simulator


BAE Systems to push for Eurofighter Typhoon at Aero India 2011, navalised Typhoon to be showcased

MBDA to display missiles for Indian Armed Forces at Aero India 2011

Not other articles, but, this ones are interesting

EF trumps F-15

F-35 Vs Gripen Vs Eurofighter dog fight over Dutch skies

AMSAR and CECAR European radar technology research programmes conclude

[chackojoseph]

My understanding is that India will be a partner in the consortium with some partners divesting in eual or unequal proportion or addl capital will be created and DPP 50% WRT Indian order will be met. Add'l equipment/ software will be sourced from Indian partners.

Technically, I see this as the cheapest MMRCA deal with profits flowing in throughout the life cycle of the project. Also, offsets.

One time my estimate was that the indirect subsidy, money multiplier effect, profits will make India operate it for just for a song.

Just wish it dosent go galileo way

[sanjeevpunj]

I dreamt we finally settled for Rafale, and then Eurofighters were soaring all around in the sky, and not a single Rafale was seen.Does this mean we settled for Eurofighter eventually?

[NRao]

Just wish it dosent go galileo way

Nahhhhhhh.

Not possible.

Anyways, if you say so and if it does happen, then I hope India has the foresight to squirrel away the engine details.

[saadhak]

Someone was talking about there being repulsion for USA. Not quite. Quite a few of us grew up on movies, comics and other forms of US soft power. Not to mention having working professional relationships with US clients and vendors.
Seemingly anti-US, anti-China or anti-other-country remarks here are more an expression of speaking for our interests than against other countries.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meanwhile, some whines from shocked-and-awed US officials.
Unkil Sam ko gussa kyon aata hai

One administration official said, "This was always very important for everybody and one needs to take a step back and realize what was at stake here."

"We all should understand that this was far bigger than just another big defence programme. This was the alignment of two of the largest free-market democracies. That's how we had always couched it."

The senior State Department official said, "Given where we are with the military to military ties, counterterrorism collaboration, dialogue on regional security, I mean, everything we've talked about, where there is the logic and momentum to a deeper and strategic relationship between India and the United States. This deal was really seen as something that would go a long way towards building a strong partnership capacity with a key nation in a strategically important region of the world."

"You bet, it was being looked at as an integral pillar of the whole strategic partnership," the official added.

The official continued, "It was seen as an important pillar of the future relationship -- it was seen as a political and strategic alignment if you will, because that's what it signifies. It's a huge programme. It's a 40-year alignment of product and technology, of industrial collaboration."

"So, it was not just the companies -- whoever was to win it -- but two countries. The forces of those two countries, sharing information and technology, know-how, capacity building, training with the Indian Air Force, all of which leads to an expanded strategic relationship."

"It's not often that the President of the United States directly advocates for a key programme."

A senior Pentagon official, who recently visited Delhi and met with senior Defence Ministry officials, including Minister Antony and the IAF leadership, told rediff.com: "We have always said that an American selection would have dramatically transformed the strategic relationship for generations to come."

"I mean that's what you talk about. You talk about the deeper and the more meaningful industrial and technology collaboration between the two industries. It would have set a new tone for the geopolitical future for the next 40 years."

For now, can't say much other than masking the jalan behind the propagated fallacy of 'strategic partnership'.

Added later:
Acknowledgement that they expected this to be decided at the political and not technical level.

The official acknowledged, "We always recognised that yes, you always have the technology decisions, but the political decision was always going to be a major function of this."
"It was always going to come down to a major political decision."

This official asserted, "The level of the technology, which was blessed by us from an export control standpoint, is something we provide only to our closest allies. We had gone through a lot of pushing and pulling in our system to get that level of technology blessed. The people in India must realise that that took a lot."

[SaiK]

Bhailog, a basic query:

If Typhoon is selected, the Eurofighter GmbH have talked of making India the 5th partner. What percentage would then be offered to India (present holding pattern: 46% EADS i.e. 33% EADS Germany and 13% EADS Spain, 33% BAE systems and 21% Alenia Aeronautical)?

The announcement that came from EADS last time did not mention anything to percentage.. I guess it depends on the weight or what we want to get out of it.

One possibility would be each country/company might shed 50% share to India, or the larger shared entity might do 50% and the rest would do 10-20%.

18% EADS Germany, 11% EADS Spain, 20% BAE, 19% Alenia and the offer of 32% to desh! would be the one that might make it all interesting and long standing for satisfying the 30-50% offsets.

=================

A senior Pentagon official, who recently visited Delhi and met with senior Defence Ministry officials, including Minister Antony and the IAF leadership, told rediff.com: "We have always said that an American selection would have dramatically transformed the strategic relationship for generations to come."

He is damn right... but what he is not understanding his stand that is built on legal bindings of US regulations, where even Obama or Clintons however powerful they can be, has to be an ordinary person under the laws.

If they change the laws, then they can get to see not just 40 years.. but something they would not even dream out.

[Guddu]

Jagan's Note: Post Edited Out - You have a right to your opinion, and so does Vishnu. You can state your viewpoint in a civil manner Without getting too personal. But you just cant quote an some anonymous correspondence alleging something and say " here is what i heard about you that I will quote in a public forum anonymously even though I dont believe it...". Its not kosher.. .. Here is an example of how you can critique a program on its content without getting too uptight about it..

+1 to the above, no argument with that. If I can make a brief OT comment.
May I however respectfully point to a double standard at BRF: calling someone Burkha Butt once is not ok as it has supposed legal risks for BRF, but use of ass-saaf-kiyanahi is as common as Kim-wipes. ...

[Bihanga]

Very welcome news, now atleast we can now onwards should accelerate the process of inducting EF to replace major part of our ageing fleet.

I must say, shortlisting of EF was nothing but a wedding gift to royal familiy of UK.

[RoyG]

I wonder if US pressure to pull out of ACU and stopping oil transactions through German banks played a part in rejecting the teens. India seems to be slowly trying to shed the dollar due to its slow and steady devaluation against the euro. Now we are leaning on the Turks to facilitate oil transactions to Iran. Just a thought.

[Bihanga]

I wonder if US pressure to pull out of ACU and stopping oil transactions through German banks played a part in rejecting the teens. India seems to be slowly trying to shed the dollar due to its slow and steady devaluation against the euro. Now we are leaning on the Turks to facilitate oil transactions to Iran. Just a thought.

Even if US were to support us in our diplomacy then only their Falcon and SH never got shortlisted, since this MRCA is based on Technological merits and not on Political.

[Bharadwaj]

This official asserted, "The level of the technology, which was blessed by us from an export control standpoint, is something we provide only to our closest allies. We had gone through a lot of pushing and pulling in our system to get that level of technology blessed. The people in India must realise that that took a lot."

Blessed? Shame they could not bless the two dinosaurs to turn, accelerate and climb faster. The teens were conceived after the Vietnam debacle when knife fights were relevant and subsonic agility/performance were the keys to combat.

[Gilles]

How does an aircraft that has a thrust ratio of nearly 1, fail to takeoff from anywhere? A fully loaded Boeing 737 has no problems in taking off from Leh.

A Boeing 737 taking off from Leh with all seats occupied does not mean it is taking off at MTOW, if it carries little fuel for a short flight to Dehli. A Transport aircraft also often takes-off at light weights. A fighter/bomber will almost always require a take-off at permissible maximum weight.

[Dilbu]

This official asserted, "The level of the technology, which was blessed by us from an export control standpoint, is something we provide only to our closest allies. We had gone through a lot of pushing and pulling in our system to get that level of technology blessed. The people in India must realise that that took a lot."

Thanks but they are not good enough for our requirements. Better luck next time. Meanwhile please to keep blessing your existing closet allies.

[rajanb]

Quote:
This official asserted, "The level of the technology, which was blessed by us from an export control standpoint, is something we provide only to our closest allies. We had gone through a lot of pushing and pulling in our system to get that level of technology blessed. The people in India must realise that that took a lot."

I hope they realise now why they lost! We were not paying US$10 Billion for their blessings. We wanted a fanged beast in the sky.

I believe the offset has been relaxed to 30% (from the 50%), which explains why all vendors were asked to resubmit their offset bids.

I do not think L1 will necessarily win. Other factors like risk, closest complaince to ToT which will help our defence industry and R&D to grow, contractual terms and conditions will be weighted to decide the finalist.

The French had also agreed to shave off 1.5 Billion for the M2K upg if they got the Rafale bid.

The next leg of the ardous process now has begun. We should have some more news in the 2nd week of May!

[saip]

Very welcome news, now atleast we can now onwards should accelerate the process of inducting EF to replace major part of our ageing fleet.

I must say, shortlisting of EF was nothing but a wedding gift to royal familiy of UK.

I can understand a DDM saying that. But why 'ageing' self goal?
U dont like EF then?

[naird]

The French had also agreed to shave off 1.5 Billion for the M2K upg if they got the Rafale bid.

When did this happen ? Any sources ? It would be highly unfrench if they did something like that.

[shiv]

If Rafale is selected, any chances of then even swapping the old M-2000 for brand new Rafale without paying anything extra at all for the swap (French showing gratitude to India for giving France an opportunity to bag their first export order for Rafale and such a big one at that)?

IMO unlikely. The Mirage 2000 is an in-service fighter well integrated into India's air defence. It cannot be suddenly swapped without changing infrastructure for maintenance, logistics, ground crew training etc. We will have a huge hole in our air power if we do that. It must come gradualy, in stages.

[rajanb]

@naird

I remember it being reported during AERO India 2011. Maybe that's why the Upg deal hasn't still been signed?

[jai]

I am now getting greedy heh heh why not get both ?? 100 of each ..would be awesome from every angle and we will have best of both worlds..technology, awesome a2a and a2g and ew...not to forget double quick induction and double benefit to the local aerospace industry ....