Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Austin
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

Singha wrote:I would take 4 rafale + meteor + RBE2-aa over 4 MKI + R77 + bars/irbis/zhuk...just the size and RCS of the MKI alone makes it far more visible at a longer range and nullifies the advantage of its big radar. the rafale spectra could likely passively isolate the MKIs from long range without even going active and generate some solution for the meteors.... :twisted:
With RVV-BD on the table for LRAAM and RVV-SD offering capabilibility comparable to AIM-120D for medium range engagement the future teeth of MKI should fare well against any thing thrown against it including Meteor.

BARS capability is quite phenomenal and can hold its own even against AESA types be it western or russian and the IAF prefers to be silent on BARS capability

Rafale is a potent multirole fighter and should do its task from where Mirage has left and should compliment the MKI and its upgrade quite well.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Cain Marko »

^ A gap here and there - sure. But with tactics, such gaps can often be closed. As far as newer Chinese flanker variants, I doubt the Tiffy can provide anything more than an upgraded MKI.

Singhaji, we don't need an AESA on the MKI, a Bars II with the Irbis TWT would be enough. Lets not forget that the current Bars was preferred to the uber Apg 79 by the RMAF. IIRC, the Irbis does provide LPI modes - not that easy to catch. And the brute range/burn through power with something that monstrous is not going to be matched by the CAESAR or RBE2. Hell in terms of pure range, the Bars upgrade is supposed to double its current range ~ 450km @ 3msq target! As far as passive detection is concerned, the Roosies seem to have caught up with the latest western stuff in the Khbiny ECM suite, and the ability to lug a masive jammer in the Sap 14. Just that jammer is prolly as big as the Rafale!

Carlo Kopp for all his drooling over the F22, does make some very sound points - with proper RCS reduction (as in the case of the Su-35), a supersized radar and TWT, and super endurance, the flanker is a menace - A2A, only the F-22 will have a clear advantage over it. The riffrafales and eurofritters will just cause a nuisance, no more. I doubt the Tiffy will offer any greater nuisance value to such threats than the Rafale, which actually might stand a better chance in some ways.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

> With RVV-BD on the table for LRAAM and RVV-SD offering capabilibility comparable to AIM-120D for medium range engagement

when will there attain FOC and be offered to us for export? I would assume they entering service on the Rus fleet of SU-35BM would be the first goal and so far this has not happened.
Austin
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

AFAIK Meteor will only available by 2014 ....RVV-BD and RVV-SD would most certainly available before that date
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

Some update on French Naval Rafale

Rafale Naval Rampup ( via Air International )

Part1
Part-2
Part-3
Part-4
Part-5
Part-6
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

Cain Marko wrote:IIRC, the Irbis does provide LPI modes - not that easy to catch.
Dont think any PESA radar can provide LPI modes ...only AESA module can do that and from what i have read they have dedicated module for LPI modes among the many module.

LPI is only an advantage as long as the opposition ESM/RWR does not have the capability to detect it ,most modern ESM/RWR are LPI aware types.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Cain Marko »

AFAIK, LPI/frequency hopping is more a function of bandwidth than anything else, and the biggest advantage of an AESA is the MTBF is far better. But i am no radar guru - just a parrot.
he radar is cited at an average power rating of 5 kiloWatts, with 2 kiloWatts CW rating for illumination. NIIP claim twice the bandwidth and improved frequency agility over the BARS, and better ECCM capability.
From Copp.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

From what i have read one of the feature of LPI is also its radiating power , the T/R module has low radiating power besides other features hence LPI sacrifice range for stealth.

I have never come across BARS/Irbis or any PESA radar claiming LPI capability , because perhaps at the backend they use the TWT and have their own limitations compared to AESA module with its own power.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Badar »

The video in the link below is not that great (but you can hear when the pilot fires his gun)...but the close up pictures are quite nice. Take a look; http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2012/02/ ... ction.html
"Exercise Garlic Marauder" - Classic!
ramana wrote:Badar, Can you look at the combat capability of the Rafale and compare it to existing IAF fighters and give us an idea of how much more or less the IAF strength will be? Say in interceptor role the baseline is the Mig 21 upgrade. Say Rafale is xTimes Mig 21 Upgrade
In attack role the baseline is the Jaguar. Say Rafale is y times Jaguar
How much is x and y?
My interest is to see how much is the IAF combat capability improved with this plane.
Various accounts say IAF is around 32 to 39.5 squadrons of existing inventory.
Will the addition of Rafale make it more effective strength due to capability, sortie rate and other unmeasurable 'ities'?
Ramana, Till we know the final specs of the IAF Rafale and its avionics and weapons outfit, it will be hard to make a proper estimate of IAF intentions or of Rafale capabilities.

Second, though it is fashionable for military-industrial PR firms to bandy things like X is 4.5 times more effective than Y (Russians being notorious at this "Complex 47.8 is 350% more effective than old Article.176"), those statements usually don't really have a lot of meaning - specially when spoken of complex weapon systems like combat aircraft which are very sensitive to environmental issues. These numbers are neither scalable, nor do they take context into account. And in air combat, context is everything. Third, I have neither the information or resources to conjure these numbers.

Finally, Capability wise the Rafale can do everything the Jaguar/MiG-21 could do thrice over. In almost every conceivable merit it is superior - agility, situational awareness, survivability, lethality, adaptability, reach, persistence and sustainability. Flexible mission planning system, live data sharing and network centric operations, sustainable maintainability and high sortie rates will likely make this aircraft superior to every aircraft in IAF inventory. Only the MKI in its air superiority role might not be outclassed by this machine. But on the other hand is its large operating and support cost and relatively limited upgrade flexibility due to design density and airframe choices.

That said, and assuming ADA Rafale as baseline: if you throw out all the fishbeds and plug in the ordered Rafales you could make some reasonable but rough conjectures.

* Net IAF numerical strength does not change by much. We are right now running to stay in position. For growth to our authorized strength we will need additional induction. MMRCA has taken some pressure off the falling strength numbers but the base problem is not solved[1].

* IAF offensive strike capability takes an immense stride forward. An fleetwide upward spike of 200% of current capability wrt to Pakistan and as much as 400% wrt to China. We can argue the exact numbers all day along, but that is my guesstimate.

* MKI will remain the mainstay for command of the air. It will overmatch PAF and be able to hold its own against PLAAF. Proper use of Rafale to supplement the MKI in an A2A role is a more heavily dependent upon support assets than the MKI is. Rafale has added a menacing axe-head to the IAF arsenal. To properly exploit its capabilities a sturdy haft is needed.

* The Rafale will slide seamlessly into our training and maintenance commands. The operations/plans and tactical aviation community will have to burn a lot of midnight oil to wring out the full potential our of this aircraft. France will be of limited assistance to us beyond tactical proficiency. No airforce operates a mix of aircraft like IAF does (MKI/Rafale/Phalcon/support assets etc) and it is largely up to the IAF to figure out the best way to exploit LO capabilities in view of our own and opposition capabilities. The upside is that IAF/IN institution is a lot more intellectually agile than the IA, so I don't see that as a matter of concern, but merely patience.

[1]
* Note that our official target is the ability to wage war on two and a half fronts by 2027. Thats barely 15 years away (or in MoD terms just one acquisition decision cycle away :) )
* We still need some cheap to acquire and operate fighters in quantity for air defense role (committing some MKI/Rafale for this role is a waste of resources). An economical OAS Teja/JF-17/Gripen class aircraft is still needed. IAF must be a little more flexible on the quality in favor of costs.
* AMCA has not really gotten into stride, and it is already quite late. Anyone see a realistic prospect of ARS to IOC in 15 years? People foreseeing a new MMCA acquisition program (ala F-35) a decade hence might not be too far off the map.
* FGFA will come, when it comes. And it wont come soon.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Philip »

Badar,the Jaguars are all going to be upgraded.The potential for a deep upgrade barring the Darin upgrades ,were never carried out even as an experiment.There were plans some ages ago for a new wing,fuselage,engines,etc.Is there any official cost of an Indian built Jaguar? The aircraft is small,and possessing a large number of them and the MIG-27s for as long as they can last help enormously in the close air support that the IA needs.With both MIG-29 and M-2000 upgrades apart from the Rafales,the medium sized inventory and capability will increase considerably,while that of the light/lightweight inventory will actually diminish.More medium sized aircraft could take over the air defence/superiority role (apart from their strike capability) that the MIG-21s were performing earlier.Keeping the Jaguar line open until the LCA MK-2 is in full swing,for GA/strike could release more MMRCAs to counter the Sino-Pak threat from their most capable aircraft and be a cost-effective way in which we can keep numbers happy.This would obviate the need to acquire another new fighter such as the Gripen---as long as the LCA eventually arrives! The "hard talk" from the CNS about the delay and attitude of the ADA reg. the naval version speaks volumes.Had we had an air force chief also speaking so plainly a decade+ ago about the LCA delays it might've shaken things up a bit.I've always had the feeling that when the LCA finally arrives,it will be a case of "too little too late".
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by vic »

This so called "aid" is normally high interest loan tied with some special interests.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dQ30OfdZCcg/T ... un0002.jpg
mmmm.. say in a dog fight situation, and the obstruction of the internal gun to missile launcher behind it, could be a hindrance!? can't use both in quick succession.

any expert opinion on this?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by shyamd »

FYI, the EF consortium position on the current position on Rafale winning is the following:

1) India never actually announced the winner - the info that was received to both never actually stated Rafale is the winner of the competition.
2) EF hasn't been informed why it was not selected.

As far as EF consortium is concerned - they say it is not over yet...
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by pankajs »

Technically they are correct and things may change.

Raffy was declared as the cheaper of the two finalists and has been declared the 'preferred' bidder. Raffy have just won the right to an exclusive negotiation but if the negotiations fail, GoI will then call Taffy to present its case.

So yes it is not over yet.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by ramana »

Badar, Thanks. So in effective combat capability these 7 squadrons will be as effective as 10 squadrons of the old planes at a minimum considering the 3x capability and minus the infrastructure and lack of manpower to service them.
Even then its a good shot in the arm for the IAF.

Once we know the details we can create a table that compares baseline Mig 21upgraded to Rafale, Jag, & Mirage 2000:
throw weight, accuracy(from the RLG), effective damage quotient (throw weight/area of CEP) and sortie rate
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Rakesh »

Google translated from:
http://www.lesechos.fr/opinions/anal...ale-283265.php

The three victories of the Rafale
Les Echos, Feb 2

[...] One should be careful but [...] It is an indisputable victory for Dassault (and its industrial partners). And even a triple victory.

The first is that all critics were proved wrong. The success in India proves it: the Rafale is one of the very best fighters in the world. Given the importance of the market involved, the cream of the sector had answered present: Lockheed Martin F16, F18 from Boeing, Mig35, Swedish Saab Gripen, Eurofighter and of course the Rafale. In this case, only missed the F22, the U.S. air superiority aircraft, but so advanced that Washington refuses to export it. Also absent, the F35, the future US multi-role aircraft which costs continue to explode. All aircraft had to compete to prove themselves during the extensive testing that led them to endure extreme temperatures in the desert or the Himalayas. Only the Eurofighter and Rafale were successfull. There are rumors that the F18 in particular failed to take off again soon after landing on a runway perched high in the mountains.

During this long period of evaluation, the Indian pilots have pushed the aircraft to their limits. They concluded not only that the Rafale was at the forefront of technology, but it was also cheaper over time than its European rival. This is the second victory of Dassault.[...]The Rafale is an expensive airplane, it's true. It is because France has deliberately chosen, in the 80's, to build an aircraft at the top of the technology.[...] For ages, there is therefore a propaganda battle between the Rafale and the Eurofighter, each one claiming to be the cheapest. Without trying to decipher the incredibly complex calculations that allowed New Delhi to compare the costs of use over forty years, Dassault can now claim a major competitive advantage against its competitor.

The third victory was more symbolic. The Rafale is certainly not yet sold officially. But it can at least do away with this label of the "aircraft that nobody wants" which stuck to its skin. We'll have to avoid any faux pas in the opening negotiation with New Delhi. The climate is rather buoyant because the manufacturer enjoys an excellent reputation with the Indian Air Force, that it equips since 1953. This is not the case in France, with abundant stories about the arrogance of the "Dassault house" which believes to be the only outside-Americans to know how to build "real" combat aircraft and always ready to play its connections with the Elysee palace ... In other countries this is not necessarily better. When, in mid-November, Abu Dhabi has slammed the Dassault offer, foreign media comments were peppered with unflattering stories about the rigidity of Dassault. To turn the tide, it may take more than one Rafale contract. The fourth victory is perhaps the hardest to win.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Rakesh »

Image

http://www.usinenouvelle.com/article/le ... is.N164502

For the record:

DASSAULT AVIATION Biarritz (Pyrénées-Atlantiques): Principal center of expertise and manufacturing for composite parts, the site is responsible for the rear section, the rudders and the drift.

DASSAULT AVIATION Martignas (Gironde): Highly endowed with robots, the site provides assembly and testing of the blades (development of hydraulic and electrical circuits) of all civil and military aircraft of the company.

DASSAULT AVIATION Argonay (Haute-Savoie): The site is specialized in production and repair of electronic equipment, mechanical and hydraulic flight controls (stick, cervo-steering control ...)

THALES Étrelles (Ille-et-Vilaine), Pessac (Gironde), Le Haillan (Gironde): The production of the radar with active antenna is made at Étrelles for microelectronics components and at Pessac for the assembly. The cockpit avionics is made at Le Haillan.

SAFRAN Villaroche (Seine-et-Marne), Evry (Essonne): The supplier assembles an M88 in two months in its Villaroche site. Most of the parts are supplied by its facility at Evry.

DASSAULT AVIATION Argenteuil (Val d'Oise) For sixty years, Argenteuil manufactures and develops the fuselage of Dassault military aircraft. With a total of over 3500 cells under its belt, the site pilots this industrial activity.

DASSAULT AVIATION Poitiers (Vienne) The plant produces and repairs canopy of the combat aircraft, as well as their packaging fireworks to disintegrate when ejecting the driver.

DASSAULT AVIATION Mérignac (Gironde) The assembly operation occupies one third of the manufacturing cycle of the aircraft, about eight months [at the current rate of production]. Reinforced by an engineering division in charge to support the production, the site also provides painting operations and flight testing.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Rakesh »

Katrina looks gorgeous! :)

Image

From:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tempete_de_pixel/

Hi-Res wallpaper of the link above (4800*3200):
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/6...2fb69422do.jpg

Not sure of the photographer of this one...

Image

Dassault's advertisement....

Image
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Rakesh »

http://www.francesoir.fr/actualite/inte ... picks=true

General Palomeros: "The Rafale is the best aircraft in the world"
France Soir, Feb 1


Image

By the time New Delhi has selected the Rafale, General Jean-Paul Palomeros, Chief of Staff of the Air Force, told France-Soir in what the French intervention in Libya has demonstrated the qualities of the aircraft to potential buyers.

F-S: Is Operation Harmattan, Libya - during which the Rafale was involved - has played a decisive role in this export success?

General Jean-Paul Palomeros: It is clear that the success of the Air Force and the Rafale during Harmattan were studied by every army in the world. My counterparts in other countries want to talk with me. They are surprised that we were able to send the Rafale as quickly to perform all types of missions. This was a demonstration of the versatility of the aircraft.

F.-S. Can you elaborate on these missions?

J. Gal-PP: We had to both impose a flight ban over Libya, help ground forces against Gaddafi who were at the gates of Benghazi and obtain information on enemy military plan. On March 19, 2011, from the first patrol, these three objectives were achieved. In addition to the imposition of the no flight zone, we used our arms of precision and fed our data for the following tasks. Thanxs to its warning and protective ground/air systems, the Rafale was able to intervene without destroying in advance all the Libyan anti-aircraft facilities, including missiles ramps which for us was the most worrying threat.

F.-S. You have been directly involved in negotiations to sell the Rafale with the Indian authorities. What was your role alongside engineers, commercial and political and French?

J. Gal-PP: I play my role as Chief of Staff. The partnership with the Indian army is old. For years, we do exercises with the Indian Air Force (IAF) which uses Mirage 2000 an aircraft very much appreciated in its ranks. My role is that this relationship is maintained at the highest level, by promoting the qualities of our equipements and those of the training of our pilots.

F.-S. And for the Rafale, specifically?

J. Gal-PP: to show the operational qualities of the aircraft, its benefits in terms of availability and maintenance. The availability of the fleet is the responsibility of the Chief of Staff. It was 95% during Operation Harmattan. In this area, France has set a high bar. To maintain a Rafale continuously, we need seven or eight mechanics. For some of our competitors is almost twice. The cost of maintenance of the aircraft is thereby reduced. It was one of the essential criteria incorporated into the design of the aircraft.

F.-S. What is this sale going to change for the Air Force?

Gal J.-PP The main interest for us is to work with the armed forces of friendly countries which have the same weapons systems than ours. The Indian Air Force will bring us an original feedback that will allow us to develop the capacity of the unit. That's what happened with the crews of Qatari Mirages that participated with us in operations in Libya. Finally,by increasing the numbers, it will reduce production costs and maintenance. Yesterday, one explained that the Rafale was very expensive. He has demonstrated today that he is probably the best aircraft in the world and in the end, it is not expensive.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by ramana »

That guy looks like Spock!
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Raja Bose »

He has demonstrated today that he is probably the best aircraft in the world and in the end, it is not expensive.
Palomeros ke mooh mein keeday paday! How dare he call Katrina a 'he' :evil: :evil:
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Mort Walker »

This much is for sure. If the Rafael deal collapses in the negotiations, then given the current attitude of the UK government, press an people, the EF should not even be brought in to consideration. In a way its good that the EF lost because the UK is now showing its true colors of being assholes.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Philip »

Mort,"a week is along time in politics",famous saying.The Brits will bend over backwards and perform all manner of tricks to get a nose back into the MMRCA tent right now.Psychologically though,the EF has suffered a savage blow that has felled it and most likely prove fatal.

Ramanna,reg. the number of Raf. sqds needed to replace the MIG-21s,there was a Rand study which evaluated the F-22 against Chinese fighters (SU-30s) that perhaps could help.The F-22 came off worst when it was outnumbered by superior PLAAF numbers,as it's capability was limited by the small number of internal missiles carried.External stores degraded its stealth advantage.With the Rafale's ,this should not be a problem in the air defence role ,especially when facing superior numbers of inferior PAF JF-17s,etc.,as it can carry upto 20,000lb of ordnance including 8 MICA AAMs.It is when used for strike missions that the combination of ordnance and number of self defence missiles carried and numbers of the opposition that matter.One is sure that the IAF will also experiment with operations using both Rafale and SU-30s for strike missions,where the heavier Sukhoi can carry longer range and larger numbers of AAMs and use its larger longer range radar to advantage .But as Badar said,even if we can reduce the number of sqds in replacing those of legacy MIGs,the requirement for a small cheap agile fighter still exists as "quantity has a quality of its own",esp. when countering a joint Sino-Pak threat.

One must now examine what measures the PAF will/can take in the advent of the Rafale in the IAF's inventory.One would expect more numbers of JF-17s and J-10s,but both fighters have a problem regarding their engines,of Russian origin reveres engineered.Purely or the sake of argument,would it buy Gripens if the Swedes would sell it to them or blackmailing the Yanquis into selling them more F-16s? If the LCA is going to be delayed even further,the fall in numbers will begin to show as the MIGs are phased out.Should we acquire Gripens also (which would sound the death knell of the LCA and therefore strongly resisted) ? Perhaps one answer is to also increase the inventory of IN MIG-29Ks,very cost-effective,which can also be used from the IN's naval air stations ,as the IN in any case plan to acquire at least 3-5 new carriers ,and lighten the load of the IAF in certain theatres.

Here is a little note,though dated from a Sweetman analysis, on the Rafale's unique cockpit design.
Information from the Spectra EW suite, the radar, and the OSF are brought together through modular mission computers and presented to the pilot and back-seater via a modern cockpit with 160 square inches of active display space - a close second to the 180 square inches on the larger F-22 and rather more than the Typhoon.

The Rafale cockpit hardware includes a number of unusual or unique features. The large central screen, which normally hosts the main tactical-situation display, is collimated at infinity. The physical optics of the "head-level display" (HLD) are designed so that the top of the HLD is directly below the head-up display (HUD). (On most other fighters, there is a small up-front control panel under the HUD and above the main central display.) Imagery from the identification sensor can be displayed on a window in the HLD. This system allows the pilot to switch from the short-term HUD view to the larger tactical picture without refocusing his eyes or dropping his gaze below the head-up display (HUD).

Contrary to US or other European practice, the Rafale cockpit uses touch-screen panels. The 6-x-6-in. screens on either side of the HLD are touch-sensitive, and there is a touch-control cursor panel beneath the HLD. One advantage of touch-screen is that it provides more glass area in the same space by eliminating the ring of bezel switches around each screen. The Rafale pilot will be issued special silk-lined leather gloves, with no stitching on the fingertips, and a chamois insert, for wiping the screens, above the fingers.

The entire fighter is highly automated, with a single all-electric throttle for both engines and a single start switch. A direct-voice-input (DVI) system is incorporated, with a 50-300-word vocabulary, and Sextant's Topsight helmet-mounted display will be incorporated from the mid-2000s.

The fused tactical display is reminiscent of the F-22's, with a "god's-eye" view of the battle replacing separate sensor displays. Different colors and shapes are used to distinguish hostiles from friendlies, and targets are automatically prioritized. Complementing the god's-eye view is an inset display which shows the relative altitude of the Rafale and its targets.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

ramana wrote:That guy looks like Spock!
yup.. look at his ears!
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by putnanja »

K.P.Nayar writes in The Telegraph ...

Why India chose Rafale
...
France won the bid for the entire order because it supplemented the requirements of the global tender with sweeteners that in the real world of strategic engagement, only three countries can offer India: Russia and Israel, in addition to France itself.

The collaborations that France has offered India in recent years in the field of intelligence sharing and upgrade are without parallel. Naturally, this is an area where co-operation cannot be publicised by the very nature of such engagement.

India and France face somewhat similar threats of domestic terrorism, vastly different from the threats faced by the US, Russia or even Israel. The assistance that Paris has offered New Delhi in preparing the country against such threats and the constant upgrading of their assistance went a long way towards creating an environment that favoured the French on the aircraft deal.

It was in direct contrast to Washington’s approach: the bulk of India’s intelligence community and key bureaucrats at decision-making levels believe that the Americans two-timed New Delhi on David Coleman Headley, their double agent in Chicago who played a major role in the Pakistan-supported terrorist attack on Mumbai in 2008.

In addition, spread across India’s entire political spectrum that includes much of the Opposition, is a firm conviction that India would not have come out unscathed from the decision to conduct the 1998 nuclear tests if it were not for the steadfast backing that President Jacques Chirac — and Nicolas Sarkozy after him — offered India in an hour of great need.

It is not widely known that during the Kargil war in 1999, the French approved with lightning speed the adaptation of Indian Air Force Mirages in tandem with equally speedy Israeli supplies of laser-guided bombs which they delivered in Srinagar: without such French and Israeli support, India could have lost Kargil to Pervez Musharraf’s perfidy.

...
...
Policies may be the result of collective decision-making in governments, but within that framework, individuals do matter. One such individual who has left a mark on Franco-Indian relations is Jean-David Levitte, whose critical role in securing the Rafale deal for his country will never become a matter of public record because of the nature of his job.

...
Levitte was senior diplomatic adviser to Chirac too when Brajesh Mishra, the then principal secretary to Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, flew to Paris as his first stop abroad seeking diplomatic support after the Pokhran II nuclear tests. Mishra found such support in Paris before he extracted reluctant support from Moscow.


...
Within the political and civilian leadership of India’s defence establishment, there has been no doubt that other things being equal, India should reward a friend in need, in this case, France.
...
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Kartik »

shukla wrote:
Can the literal sum (or thereabouts) be used in the Indian context? In which case 126 birds would easily cross $20 Billion +
You can't take it as a direct reference because when there is a number as large as the MRCA contract, the unit cost will be lower. But, the costs associated ToT, with setting up HAL's production line plant, training HAL engineers and mechanics, royalties for each unit, etc. will make the unit cost go up as well.

Even my guess is that the cost will be closer to $20 billion than to $12-14 billion that others are now mentioning.
ramana
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by ramana »

Philip, Thanks for the details of the cockpit instrumentation. One key innovation is the use of certain algorithms to fuse the data from the many sensors to identify the key threats.

PS: Six degrees of separation works here.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

India has only chosen Rafale.. It all depends on Rafale now to choose the business proposal. UK+Germany will seize any opportunity lost by Rafale.

Worst case, it could be LCA++.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Rakesh »

A beautiful shot of Katrina with a F-Solah in her sights...sign of things to come (hopefully!) :)

This shot was taken at Luke Air Force Base, Arizona when Rafales of the Armée de l’Air were sent for exercises against the US Air Force in 2008.

http://www.fencecheck.com/files/ZeQl4Ub ... 6p0YQR.jpg

Gives one a rough idea of the size of the aircraft...be forewarned...the link below is a picture with a high resolution. You are better off saving the image on your hard drive and then viewing it, if you have a slow internet connection.

http://www.nellis.af.mil/shared/media/p ... 2E-005.jpg
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

the RBE2-AA pic has 838 modules not 1000 as shown in this analysis and graph. its from rafalenews so one can discount psyops.
http://rafalenews.blogspot.in/2011/02/t ... ttern.html
they could maybe pack in another 100 along the rim but thats about it.

if we look at NG SABR radar for F-16 nose (the APG80 has to fit in same form factor), a rough count I did puts modules @ <=600
http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/i ... -16_lg.jpg
the APG80 if it is a fixed face can get rid of the side to side moving machinery and be mounted further back, perhaps ending up in 800-900 module range.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Philip »

PS:What's the response from the IAF pilots? They must be jubilant that a decision has been reached and which bird was chosen.Does anyone have some off the record info? It would be nice to have a few viewpoints.ACM Browne and his predecessors involved from the start too must be saluted for their perseverance and single mindedness in keeping the contest strictly objective ,conducting an unprecedented evaluation anywhere around the globe,and working out the actual cost of lifecycle ownership too.If such focus was/is given to the LCA programme too by the ADA ,we should make headway much faster and not hear the remarks made by the CNS emanating from the CoAS too!
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Mort Walker »

Singhaji,

Its not all about the number of T/R modules in the radar. You'd have to look at their efficiency as well as geometry. If you add to many modules, then proper beam forming can become difficult along with possible uncontrolled side lobes (which is a problem for clutter control). It is possible to do some engineering tricks to improve sensitivity, dynamic range and SNR. Raytheon has considerable involvement in the Thales radar and communications system when Thomson-CSF became Thales. I doubt we will get great details.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Fidel Guevara »

^^^ @nukavarapu blah, blah, blah. Venapro and Thalitone might help.
nukavarapu wrote: I personally don't think that I know it all

I don't personally think I am very knowledgeable

First thing we agree on. Totally.
nukavarapu wrote: I am very positive you will.
I'm pretty sure that YOU will...we'll see in 12-18 months.
nukavarapu wrote: India will only buy logistical equipment from khan and no offensive gear.
So the AH64 Attack Helicopters, INS Jalashwa, P8 Anti-Submarine Warfare planes and M777 howitzers are classified as "logistical (sic) equipment" :roll:...you would have been an excellent accountant at Enron!
Last edited by Fidel Guevara on 06 Feb 2012 10:19, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by kmkraoind »

Are there any chances France offering its Mirage stock, say 80-100 aircrafts at a price of 10-20 million a pop or getting UAE's Mirage's at dirt cheap prices, if they offer at dirt cheap prices will IAF shows any eagerness to acquire them to fill the numbers.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by rajanb »

Someone posted that they heard a rumour that the F-18 could not take off at Leh. I heard the same. Now I am waiting for someone to post what happened to the F-16. Mind you I am speaking of technical evaluation. Not the Political/Porki/restrictions angle. It didn't make the cut technically.

In fact the Yanquis did agree when they asked for the reasons that they were deselected. Now, they aren't going to broadcast those reasons, are they? :)
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Mort Walker »

rajanb wrote:Someone posted that they heard a rumour that the F-18 could not take off at Leh. I heard the same. Now I am waiting for someone to post what happened to the F-16. Mind you I am speaking of technical evaluation. Not the Political/Porki/restrictions angle. It didn't make the cut technically.

In fact the Yanquis did agree when they asked for the reasons that they were deselected. Now, they aren't going to broadcast those reasons, are they? :)
From what I recall, the F-16 could not start on cold mornings at Leh and needed an APU for startup. At that altitude, the F-18 struggled to get airborne with a full complement of fuel and munitions. At least that is what I recall, and perhaps someone can correct me here.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by pankajs »

putnanja wrote:K.P.Nayar writes in The Telegraph ...
Why India chose Rafale
[...]
Soon afterwards, Levitte became French permanent representative to the UN in New York where he led, along with Russia, a split among the five permanent members of the Security Council on the issue of punishing India through sanctions on the nuclear issue. Later he was ambassador in Washington.
[...]
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Kartik »

kmkraoind wrote:Are there any chances France offering its Mirage stock, say 80-100 aircrafts at a price of 10-20 million a pop or getting UAE's Mirage's at dirt cheap prices, if they offer at dirt cheap prices will IAF shows any eagerness to acquire them to fill the numbers.
The French are going to retire all their Mirage-2000Cs by 2015 and only plan on keeping their 37 Mirage-2000-5Fs and Mirage-2000Ds in service. Even the Mirage-2000Ns are due to be retired. Brazil is also going to retire their Mirage-2000Cs since they probably will run out of OEM guaranteed service life.

the Mirage-2000Cs are slightly more sophisticated than our Mirage-2000Hs, so they'd be useless without an upgrade to the -5 Mk2 level that we're getting for our 51 aircraft. And considering the cost of the upgrade and the time it is taking for our 51 aircraft to be upgraded, it probably is not worth it. India most definitely won't be interested in buying these.

the UAE's 63 Mirage-2000-9s will be bought back by Dassault if a Rafale sale materialises and they will most likely sell most of them, or at least a part of them, to Libya. At this stage, since the Rafale has been selected, it makes more sense to not scout for any more second-hand airframes, be they MiG-29s or Mirage-2000s.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

I believe the F-18 did take off with prescribed load but had to use more than the prescribed takeoff run length/thrust setting.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by srai »

^^^

I agree with Kartik on the Mirage-2000s. They won't become available until post-2015. The UAE stock would be even further--post-2018. As of yet, the UAE has not even signed contacts yet for their replacement, which means by the time they have a operational squadron of a new type it will be 2018 at the earliest.

IMO, at most, the IAF will purchase around 10 second-hand Mirage-2000s to shore up the numbers for it's 3 squadrons (operating under strength currently). These will also be upgraded to the new -5 standards.
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