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OK. Then how come the goods trains have so many more bogies? If I'm not wrong, 45-50 bogies is normal. Is it because they bypass passenger stations so don't have to worry about the short signal sections near the passenger platforms?arshyam wrote:Unfortunately, we cannot. All the junctions and important stations have platform lengths for 24 coach trains already. IR can, at best, add another 2 coaches to make 26 coach trains. But beyond that, not feasible. One needs to keep in mind that the train length is not infinite, and is dictated by things like block spacing (distance between signals), loop line lengths, etc. Then, longer trains will need more locomotives and tractive effort, all of which will increase energy consumption; there is a limit where energy cost-revenue ratio becomes unsustainable. Also, additional locos impose a speed penalty on electrified sections due to the design of our OHE and oscillations by multiple pantographs in the same consist.kapilrdave wrote:Yes. Add to that the need to increase the length of platforms to accommodate for more number of coaches. All these require sharp focus.
And even these 2 extra coaches to get to 26 will need the feasibility studies to be fully done, followed by platform improvements to support 26 coach rakes, yard capacity, and lastly, the extra coaches themselves. Having done all this, IR will prefer to add revenue generating 3AC coaches here, given the deep hue of red ink they have been seeing for a long time.
Well no Railway Minister is going to explicitly say this, isn't it? We can only go by the public info and their statements in which they do talk about HSR but not about increasing the number of trains or train length etc. Although I'm willing to be corrected here.arshyam wrote:Please point out where Suresh Prabhu has been discussing HSR only at the cost of other IR projects.kapilrdave wrote:Unfortunately the focus seems to be on HSRs and related infrastructure only.
It's not that you 'can't have a longer train'. There are negative tradeoffs involved. A longer train will use multiple signaling blocks. It will also clear each block much slower, because it's not running fast enough. Regardless of what kind of a train it is, when you lengthen it, you slow it.kapilrdave wrote:OK. Then how come the goods trains have so many more bogies? If I'm not wrong, 45-50 bogies is normal. Is it because they bypass passenger stations so don't have to worry about the short signal sections near the passenger platforms?
FWIW kapil, prabhu almost never talks of HSR, except to mention the incredible sweetheart deal we got (and we did).kapilrdave wrote:
prabhu has repeatedly gone on record that he has a self imposed moratorium on announcing new trains till he is able to sort out the infrastructure required for currently announced trains. please take note because that is not a trivial point.Well no Railway Minister is going to explicitly say this, isn't it? We can only go by the public info and their statements in which they do talk about HSR but not about increasing the number of trains or train length etc. Although I'm willing to be corrected here.
No doubt. The DFC will reduce the traffic on the mainline, though I don't think it will be 100% reduced. Maybe vsunder saar might know as he is tracking it more closely. But once the extra capacity is realised, what next? How much extra capacity will the tracks have, and how much of it can be utilised? What I mean is, let's say goods trains on DFC reduces the demand on the mainline by 50%. Given that this line already has 120%+ (ref Singha's graphic above), the DFC will reduce it only to 70% or so. Still quite high, keeping future growth in mind.nukavarapu wrote:I beg to differ here, as this will be taken care once the DFC is commissioned. Was not the whole purpose of DFC to take away the goods trains from regular trunk routes? I will not say thats true for the whole country but the Mumbai-Ahmedabad route, is it not falling under the Mumbai-Delhi economic corridor for which the western DFC is being built? Why would the goods trains take the regular routes once the western DFC is commissioned. Did I understand something wrong here?arshyam wrote: b) the problem is running all sorts of trains on the same set of tracks, so the average speed is dictated by the slowest train on the line, which invariably is a goods train.
Yes, we will. In any case, like I said earlier, GoI/IR is experimenting with only the Mum-ADI stretch to start with, before going all in. If your scepticism turns out to be right, there won't be more HSR. Having followed IR for a long time, I think HSR will indeed take off and be very successful in India, far more than even China.nukavarapu wrote:Yes I agree. I never said we don't need more tracks. My point was do we need a dedicated HSR?arshyam wrote: For any further improvement, we need more tracks, period. After decades of simply adding trains without augmenting infra, IR has reached a critical point where more trains can simply not be run, unless utilizing the engineering blocks that are reserved for safety/maintenance work. In that sense, Suresh Prabhu has done an admirable job in resisting pressure to add even more trains and focussing on adding more capacity. This goes for fully unreserved trains too, which is a parallel topic of discussion right now.
Liability is ours, of course. The fixed investment will be physically in India, won't it? There is a risk for sure, but aren't all infra projects associated with some risk? Why single this one out? And if you think India cannot afford to spend $15 billion over the next 50 years for transport infra, I have nothing further to say.nukavarapu wrote:Agreed and can you point me towards the official documentation which governs liability in the even of bankruptcy?
Okay, please talk specifics. What are the re-alignments you propose? And please keep in mind my points above about current commuter demand, future growth, increase in quality of travel, etc.nukavarapu wrote:I believe that if the existing infrastructure can be realigned for a semi-HSR, that can easy serve Surat and Vodadra.arshyam wrote:Someone mentioned this already, so will refer to that here: what about Surat, Vadodara, etc? It's not worth the time to go to the airport, security, etc., just for a short 30 min journey. The airport related time overheads will make this unviable. Trains will go from city centre to city centre, and are far more efficient. Even for HSR, the MH govt is considering the Bandra-Kurla Complex for the terminus, which is a great location, IMHO.
Certainly. These are the right things to do, and as you yourself say, IR is indeed trying out improvements on its existing network. So they are not exclusively going for HSR without focussing on the existing infra. I hope you saw that no one turned up for the EMU trainsets tender?nukavarapu wrote:I already made my point about the goods trains being shifted to DFC once commissioned, so that should pave way for introducing more traffic and which can travel faster. I n my understanding the Governments RFP for long distance EMU was just about that. And the testing of new Talgo trains is the same thing that government is pointing towards. Upgrade the speed by doing incremental upgrade to the existing infrastructure.
Far fetched? These are echoing some of your own points! Interesting to see how you dismiss itnukavarapu wrote:I will not comment on these as in my opinion those proposals are too far fetched.arshyam wrote:Then let's look at the long term. Apart from Mumbai-Ahmedabad, other corridors with high demand are: Chennai-Bengaluru, Chennai - Coimbatore, Trivandrum-Kochi, Kolkata-Dhanbad, Bhopal-Indore, Delhi-Kanpur-Lucknow, Delhi-Chandigarh, Delhi-Amritsar, Delhi-Jaipur, etc. Most of these routes are currently served by Shatabdi expresses, and a simple upgrade and quadrupling of tracks will help a lot. I would start with a 130kmph to start with, going up to 160. Doing this will help other non-Shatabdi traffic as well, and goods trains will benefit from the increased track capacity. So far, so good. But in 20 years' time, even this will reach capacity, believe it or not. Then what? If the economy keeps growing during this time, then public affordability will have increased to warrant HSR on these routes. Airlines will take more traffic for sure, but won't be enough. My point is, building up existing infra on this routes for now, followed by HSR in the long term is a good way to go. And even then, watch how the most feasible route for HSR does before committing to more routes (the Chinese studies for other routes won't go anywhere). And that's what IR is doing based on the latest budget - diamond quadrilateral and associated infra investments to increase speeds to 160, and zero investment into HSR.
Why not have more double checkers ? Is it because we don't have enough rolling stock or is it because the locos can't pull ?Suraj wrote:It's not that you 'can't have a longer train'. There are negative tradeoffs involved. A longer train will use multiple signaling blocks. It will also clear each block much slower, because it's not running fast enough. Regardless of what kind of a train it is, when you lengthen it, you slow it.kapilrdave wrote:OK. Then how come the goods trains have so many more bogies? If I'm not wrong, 45-50 bogies is normal. Is it because they bypass passenger stations so don't have to worry about the short signal sections near the passenger platforms?
Now visualize a single lane/direction road with cars (analogous to passenger trains) and long trailer trucks (analogous to goods trains) . There are a limited number of turn out areas where the trucks can let trailing traffic through. Increase the number of cars and it will cause another set of pressures on this system too. Remember, there's typically no 'overtaking' possible as such in this setup. You can switch trailing fast trains on to opposing tracks sometimes, but it's dangerous since you risk head on collisions with opposing traffic, which faces similar throughput pressures.
That's the gist of the problem. Even trunk routes on IR are laughably constrained, as Singha's map shows. Throwing on more coaches, or more trains, all have side effects. The primary way to fix this is to increase line capacity and offload goods traffic to the DFC on trunk lines. Will that fix the system for HSR though ? No, that requires a whole different set of technological challenges to be overcome - track straightness, continuous welded tracks to avoid clacking sounds, maximum curve radius requirements, no platform-adjacent station bypasses (a train blowing past at 250km/h adjacent to platform causes dangerous disturbances from sucking objects towards it), signaling, and more.
What IR is doing is removing major bottlenecks that will enable a much larger number of trains to operate faster because they aren't stuck waiting to overtake slower trains up front. More than route kms, what's more important is track kms. The most commonly quoted length is route km, which is the actual end to end distances. If every route is double-tracked, track km is 2x route km. IR currently has about 68000 route km and 115000km track km. Of course, this isn't a very useful metric all alone, and a lot of lines don't even need double tracking for now. But the major trunk routes all need a minimum of double tracking.
It's not a panacea. There's no one solution. A longer train will still need a longer signaling block, or block multiple ones, because signaling capacity is outdated. I can see what this will lead to - 'why not increase signaling capacity'. And that will lead to another bottleneck, and ultimately you come up with the entire list of changes IR is already investing in.srin wrote:Why not have more double checkers ? Is it because we don't have enough rolling stock or is it because the locos can't pull ?
Code: Select all
PROPOSED INVESTMENT PLAN (2015-2019)
Item Amount (Rs in crore)
Network Decongestion (including DFC, Electrification, Doubling
including electrification and traffic facilities) 199320
Network Expansion (including electrification) 193000
National Projects (North Eastern & Kashmir connectivity projects) 39000
Safety (Track renewal, bridge works, ROB, RUB and Signalling &
Telecom) 127000
Information Technology / Research 5000
Rolling Stock (Locomotives, coaches, wagons – production &
maintenance) 102000
Passenger Amenities 12500
High Speed Rail & Elevated corridor 65000
Station redevelopment and logistic parks 100000
Others 13200
TOTAL 8,56,020These tests sound a bit dangerous. Will the loco be operated by remote?"It is a nine-coach set. One coach will have oscillograph and another speed trial equipment, and the train will be pulled by a WDP4 or WAP 5 locomotive capable of pulling at speeds of 180kmph. The trials will test the stability of the train, its top speed in Indian track conditions and the emergency braking distance. It could herald a new era if the trials are successful," said an official.
Why do you think so? I mean what part of these tests sound a bit dangerous?A Nandy wrote:These tests sound a bit dangerous. Will the loco be operated by remote?
Yes. sourcehanumadu wrote:Does the cost of Mumbai-Abad HSR include land acquisition costs too?
GJ and MH both have reformist BJP governments who want to ensure land acquisition is prompt and trouble free.construction and procurement cost alone is around Rs 49,504 crore. Other major expenditure heads are Consulting Service Cost (Rs 2,190 crore); land acquisition (Rs 10,248 crore); a contingency fund (Rs 3,334 crore) and the implementing agency’s management fee (Rs 4,700 crore).
I could not find it either. To be fair, JICA has a pretty good record of doing due diligence, particularly when they're offering basically free money to build this thing. 0.1%, 50 years with a 15 year period before repayments are made by the SPV running the system. The numbers translate to either great confidence or extreme foolhardiness on their part to lend money for the project on such sweetheart terms.hanumadu wrote:Is the JICA feasibility study public or is it proprietary IP? Half of it is paid for by India though. I searched for it and couldn't find it.
DMRC (and other JICA funded metros) do employ many Japanese consultants and engineers. I vaguely recall seeing an article on JICA website/magazine sometime back abut this.Suraj wrote:JICA funded Delhi Metro, and most of the equipment there is not Japanese. In fact I can't think of any significant Japanese equipment use. The trainsets are Bombardier/Alstom or Rotem, and those are French/Canadian and Korean respectively. All the civil work is done by desi contractors.
In a first of its kind attempt for India, Ministry of Railways is using automatic track laying machines on dedicated freight corridors! The Dedicated Freight Corridor Corporation of India (DFCCIL), is using a new construction machine that lays tracks to expedite work on freight corridors. DFCCIL seems to have ushered in a technological revolution of sorts, be it the mechanised laying of tracks or use of drones for project monitoring. It aims to lay around 6,000 km of tracks using these new machines. We take a look at how Railways is using innovative ways, such as automatic track laying, to speed up work on freight corridors. (Image by DFCCIL)
By using the new track construction machines, we are able to lay 1.5 km of tracks per day as compared to 100 m per day when done manually, Adesh Sharma, MD of DFCCIL told FE last month. (Image by DFCCIL)
http://www.financialexpress.com/photos/ ... achines/8/The NTC is able to lay 10 'concrete sleepers' per minute with precise sleeper spacing and squareness. This is the most efficient and effective means to lay new track, it claims. (Image by DFCCIL)
NEW DELHI: Focusing on rail network expansion, Railways will increase the pace of laying new track to 19 km per day from the current 7.8 km which will likely generate Rs 80,000 crore business in the procurement of cement, steel and cable among others in the next three years.
Besides, the Railways will use drones to monitor the progress of the track laying work.
"Currently, we are laying 7.8 km track per day and it will go up to 13 km per day next year. Our target is to reach 19 km per day in the fiscal 2018-19,"
Expansion of rail network is a major thrust for Railways as the public transporter is facing an acute congestion due to the limited line capacity, he said.
Railways has laid 1,983-km-long track in 2014-15 and it increased to 2,828 km in the next year.
There will be total 2,900 km of track in the current year and it involves gauge conversion, doubling and also laying new rail connecting new areas, he said.
The capacity augmentation exercise also aims to boost the economy as it involves procurement of rail, cement, steel, engineering and signalling equipment.
He said earlier railways was facing fund constraint but now it has assured funds to execute projects.
Railways will be investing about Rs 80,000 crore in procurement of various ingredients like cement, steel, rail the next three years for laying tracks which will be a boost to the economy, he said.
In order to expedite the project execution, Railways has pressed drones into service to closely monitor the progress.
"Now, we are using drones to monitor the exact progress in our project execution and it has become a very effective monitoring tool,"
). And the turnouts look like higher speed ones - are they 1:16?vsunder wrote:Railway achievements regarding track laying in last two fiscals and capacity augmentation(highlights):
http://www.railnews.co.in/indian-railwa ... gineering/
New Delhi: Member Engineering (ME), Railway Board Shri V.K.Gupta informed that Indian Railways has commissioned around 4800 kilometer of Broad Gauge track in last two financial years including about 1200 Km New Lines, 1900 Km Gauge Conversion and 1700 Km Doubling. As compared to this, Railways have been commissioning at an average of about 1530 Km in the previous five years. M.E. was giving information to media in a press conference here today. Following are the other details informed by M.E. :
- In current financial year, Indian Railways is set to commission over 2800 Km Broad Gauge track at therate of over 7.7 Km per day.
- In the North East, Indian Railways commissioned about 900 km of Broad Gauge in last two years, leaving only about 50 Km MG lines to be converted in 2016-17. In addition, a 132 Km part of 3rd alternative connectivity route to Northeast (i.e. New Maynaguri – Jogighopa) was also commissioned.
- Important railway lines commissioned during this period include:
- Udhampur-Katra (25 km) New Line in Jammu & Kashmir – providing direct connectivity for millions of pilgrims coming to Shri Mata Vaishno Devi from various parts of the country.
- With commissioning of Rangapara-Murkongselek & Balipara-Bhalukpong (362 km) section, the entire North Bank of Brahmaputra brought on Broad Gauge Network. This has also provided second rail connectivity to the State of Arunachal Pradesh.
- Lumding – Silchar Gauge Conversion (210 Km) bringing Barak Valley of Assam on Broad Gauge.
- Mega – Block of Badarpur – Kumarghat – Agartala (227 Km) Meter Gauge line was taken on 01-10-2015 for six months. Passenger services have been introduced between Silchar and Agartala, thereby bringing, the Capital of Tripura on Broad Gauge.
- Dudhnoi-Mendipathar (20 km) New line – bringing Meghalaya on Indian Railway BG Network.
- With the commissioning of Kathakal-Bhairabi and Arunachal-Jiribam sections, the States of Mizoram and Manipur have come on Broad Gauge map of the country.
- New Mal – Changrabandha (62 Km) gauge Conversion and Changrabandha – New Coochbehar (70 Km) New line in the flood prone North Bengal commissioned, thereby providing an alternative route to the NE Region.
- Two Mega Rail-cum-Road bridges over River Ganga at Patna and Munger in Bihar were commissioned for railway traffic, integrating North and South Bihar.
- Opening of Daniawan – Bihar Sharief (38 Km) for passenger traffic, thereby bringing backward areas of Bihar on Broad Gauge.
- Chhapra-Thawe (107 Km) Gauge conversion has been commissioned for goods traffic, thereby completing long pending Kaptanganj-Tawe-Chhapra Gauge Conversion Project.
- Opening of Nawadih – Kawar (53 Km) for passenger traffic, thereby bringing backward areas of Jharkhand on Broad Gauge.
- Koderma-Hazaribagh (80 km) New Line – bringing Naxal affected district of Hazaribagh on railway map.
- Bhind-Etawah (36 km) New line – providing direct connectivity from Etawah to Guna, Gwalior and Bhind benefiting people of backward areas of Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh.
- Gauge Conversion of Barhni-Gonda loop (108 km) – providing much needed Broad Gauge connectivity to the backward areas of Eastern Uttar Pradesh.
- Agra-Etawah (110 km) New Line – providing rail connectivity to Bateshwar, the ancestral village of Shri Atal Behari Vajpayee. (Since ages Bateshwar remained a renowned religious centre both for Hindu and Jain communities. In the epic Mahabharat Bateshwar is supposed to be referred as Shouripur a city of king Suresaine. It is known for 101 Shiv Temples built by Raja Badan Singh Bhadauria on a dam on the banks of Yamuna. Shaouripur, near Bateshwar, which is the birthplace of the 22nd Tirthankar of Jain faith, Lord Neminath.
- Kasganj-Bareilly (106 Km) section of Kanpur-Kasganj-Mathura & Kasganj-Bareilly- Lalkuan gauge conversion commissioned – providing direct rail connectivity to the valleys of Kumaon in Uttarakhand with the rest of the country.
- Etawah-Mainpuri (58 Km) New Line has been commissioned for goods traffic, thereby completing a long pending project of ravines of Chambal.
- Jind – Sonepat New Line (81 Km) – connecting backward areas of Haryana.
- Sikar – Loharu Broad Gauge (122 Km) – bringing Sikar and Jhunjhunu Districts of Shekhawati region of Rajasthan nearer to the National Capital.
- Suratpura-Hanumangarh (174 Km) broad gauge line has provided vital missing link to backward region of North Rajasthan.
- Bangurgram-Ras (28 km) New line in Rajasthan.
- Khurda Road-Begunia-Rajsunakhala (42 km) New line – benefiting people of backward areas of Odisha.
- Palani – Pollachi – Palakkad (117 Km) Gauge Conversion commissioned thereby completing conversion of Dindigul – Palakkad route in Tamil Nadu and Kerala.
- Completion and commissioning of Mawaikhas – Khajuraho (100 Km) section of Lalitpur-Singrauli New Line for goods traffic. This section will be opened to passenger traffic shortly. This will provide much needed rail connectivity to the backward districts of Bundelkhand region of Madhya Pradesh.
- Opening of Yerraguntla-Nossam (47 km) New Line for passenger traffic and Nossam – Banganapalli (45 Km) for goods traffic– providing rail connectivity to backward regions of Andhra Pradesh.
- Jagtial-Morthad (51 km) New line (part of Peddapally-Karimanagar-Nizamabad) in Telangana commissioned.
Road Over and Road Under Bridges:
- 2132 ROBs/RUBs were completed in last two years, at an average of 1066 per year, as compared to an average of 763 per year in previous five years.
- Elimination of Unmanned Level Crossings: 2433 unmanned level crossings were eliminated in last two years, at an average of 1217 per year, as compared to 1139 per year in previous five years. Elimination of Level Crossings is becoming more and more difficult with time, as those identified for easy elimination have already been eliminated.
- Technological Advancements and Innovations in Projects:
- Many innovations were done in Design of bridges, ROBs/RUBs, formation etc. resulting into an immediate saving of about Rs 700 crores on Northern Railway. In fact, these innovations would result in perpetual savings of thousands of crores every year on Indian Railways.
- e-enabled Project Monitoring Information System (PMIS) has been launched in April, 2016. Drone video-graphy has been introduced for ongoing projects. This will enable close monitoring of various projects on Indian Railways.
Remarks:
Commissioning of a Railway line is quite different from a road as:
- Road can be commissioned as soon as it is laid even in small patches whereas Railway line can be commissioned when it has been completed end to end.
- Road does not involve interference with the existing system, whereas commissioning of a railway line involves Non-Interlocking of existing stations and integration of newly laid track with the running system. This is a very cumbersome process as train running is affected during commissioning process.
- A railway line is certified to be traffic worthy by General Manager (Special Secretary level officer) and inspected by Commissioner of Railway Safety before authorizing running of trains on it. No such certification is required in case of a road.
Absolutely, I am really delighted to see the high speed turnouts and yes the new ROB gives higher clearance.arshyam wrote:^^ Very nice. Though one has to strain a bit to notice the higher OHE placement, the 'broken' bridge gives it away (hopefully they remove the remaining part of that bridge soon
In some stretches, DFC itself seemed to have four tracks. Is is a part of their plan to aim for four tracks wherever possible and try and get in at least two, with scope for future expansion?vsunder wrote:The Durgawati-Sasaram section of the eastern DFC as seen from a drone, now used to monitor projects:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NhTyap_-Co
Note the IR tracks are also tripled on this busy section between Mughalsarai and Son Nagar.
Those are loop lines at DFC stations. Also note the length of the loop lines, they are much longer than the IR ones. That is because rakes on DFC will have 126 wagons as opposed to 58 on IR. Rakes will be 1500m long as opposed to 700m currently. So the loop lines will be over 1.5km. Weight too the rakes are going to be about 13000 tonnes as opposed to 4500 tonnes currently. DFC is double track except for the Ludhiana-Khurja(outside Delhi) section which will be single line. This is because of land acquisition problems in Panjab. Khurja recently got a brand new signalling system and yard management system on the IR portion that helps marginally in decongesting efforts on Mughalsarai-Delhi sector:Kashi wrote:In some stretches, DFC itself seemed to have four tracks. Is is a part of their plan to aim for four tracks wherever possible and try and get in at least two, with scope for future expansion?vsunder wrote:The Durgawati-Sasaram section of the eastern DFC as seen from a drone, now used to monitor projects:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NhTyap_-Co
Note the IR tracks are also tripled on this busy section between Mughalsarai and Son Nagar.
I frequent that route vsunderji, have been travelling that route since my childhood to my town of birth - Jabalpur and that stretch on the Bagra Tawa is absolutely amazing. I always wish the train slows down in that stretch (they usually do due to single track + curves + Tunnel). Itarsi Alo Bondas are nothing special, in fact the overall quality of food available in the stations has gone down over the years in the Allahbad Itarsi sectionvsunder wrote:Is it true Itarsi alu bondas are the best?i
.... I am eagerly awaiting the electrification of this stretch ...ever since my childhood they have been talking about it! I used to love the former (3up/4down) Howrah Vail via Allahbad but with the modern numbers, I can never remember the number! Interestingly, one of my childhood dreams was fulfilled when they started Jabalpur Mumbai Garibrath - the only sad thing is that it travels during night on the Itarsi - Jabalpur section both ways so once missed the fun!This section between Itarsi and Jabalpur also appears in literature. It is while traveling on this section Mr. Phineas Fogg in Around the World in 80 days (by Jules Verne) is told that the line is not complete and Fogg is under a misconception that the Bombay to Calcutta line is complete, and he has to travel a distance by elephant to make it to the railhead of the EIR from where the GIPR( Great Indian Peninsular railway, forerunner of the Central railway, GIPR markers are still seen in abundance along the Central railway tracks) tracks ended. While traveling on the elephant he rescues Princess Ouda and then eventually marries her. In the movie Aouda is played by Shirley Maclaine and Fogg by David Niven and there is his faithful valet Passepartout.saumitra_j wrote:I frequent that route vsunderji, have been travelling that route since my childhood to my town of birth - Jabalpur and that stretch on the Bagra Tawa is absolutely amazing. I always wish the train slows down in that stretch (they usually do due to single track + curves + Tunnel). Itarsi Alo Bondas are nothing special, in fact the overall quality of food available in the stations has gone down over the years in the Allahbad Itarsi sectionvsunder wrote:Is it true Itarsi alu bondas are the best?i
