Understanding US thread-III

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 27 Jan 2017 10:06

Rudradev wrote: Sympathize if you want. I am a citizen of India and I could not care less what happens to them.

That is short-sighted...in the long-term its going to be the West, India, China and Islam. China and Islam are our biggest strategic threats right now and for the forseeable future. You think India will be able to manage on its own without aligning with the West ? If that is not the case, shouldn't India be also invested in the strength of the West ( subject to Indians in US and UK sharing the spoils of power along with Anglos and Jews - which seems to be also headed in the right direction) ?

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 27 Jan 2017 10:21

Arjun wrote:
Rudradev wrote: Sympathize if you want. I am a citizen of India and I could not care less what happens to them.
You think India will be able to manage on its own without aligning with the West ?

Yes sir. I have no doubt that we will, in fact, do far more than manage. With no need whatsoever of an alignment with the West.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 27 Jan 2017 10:44

Rudradev wrote:Yes sir. I have no doubt that we will, in fact, do far more than manage. With no need whatsoever of an alignment with the West.

We can deal with Islam..but about China or the emerging China / Islam axis - taking them on all alone would be heroic but seems Abhimanyu-like to me. Given what we have learnt of the Chinese over the last few years - I would not support anything that assists Chinese growth at the expense of the West or US.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 27 Jan 2017 11:08

Arjun wrote:We can deal with Islam..but about China or the emerging China / Islam axis - taking them on all alone would be heroic but seems Abhimanyu-like to me. Given what we have learnt of the Chinese over the last few years - I would not support anything that assists Chinese growth at the expense of the West or US.

And why do you think that West would help us against China and Islam, when they could easily ally with either or both of them against us. Indeed they have done so and continue to do so. In fact their actions against us have been far more antagonistic than those against China and Islam.

They could very well gang up on us with the other two in the belief that once we have been "taken care of", they could ally with either of the other two to dispose of the third and then establish a duopoly.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 27 Jan 2017 12:06

If India wants to change its current position in the world quickly and in its own terms, there has to be a destabilization of the existing global order. Fortunately for India, Trump is doing exactly the same thing for his own nationalistic reasons. He sees that USA is getting hollowed out and is becoming a shell economy. Manufacturing that provided stable jobs for its people have moved out. When manufacturing moved, people lost jobs, and it has to import products from outside. When that happens, money also goes out. To pay for imports, the country is loaded with debt. During Obama's 8 years, country's debt load doubled. To put that in a context, Obama borrowed as much money as US borrowed since its founding to his presidency (assuming debt interest accumulation covers the inflation). He entered into the scene to fix this problem and for that he played any game that has to be played for winning. During that process he is making many enemies from the established world order. It will be extremely beneficial for India to help Trump achieve his goal, because current order that chained India down also would be broken.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 27 Jan 2017 12:23

Kashi wrote:And why do you think that West would help us against China and Islam, when they could easily ally with either or both of them against us. Indeed they have done so and continue to do so. In fact their actions against us have been far more antagonistic than those against China and Islam.

They could very well gang up on us with the other two in the belief that once we have been "taken care of", they could ally with either of the other two to dispose of the third and then establish a duopoly.

Yes, certainly they can...as can India align with the Chinese against the others (in fact I myself felt a couple of years back that there was stronger convergence in core values with the Chinese) - but Chinese actions have been a complete rebuff to any thoughts in that direction.

At the end of the day, India has to be prepared to be alone if others are not willing. A partnership however is always a force multiplier....And of the three - Islam, China and the West - which is the one that is most likely and where there seems to be maximum convergence of values (even if it is not total) ? The answer seems to be the West - unless you can indicate why any of the other two are better bets.

Any alignment with the West should of course be subject to (1) the US aligning with India's concerns on China / Pak (2) no EJ promotion in India and (3) no restriction on Indian emigration to these countries and continued meritocratic access of Indian Americans or Indo-British to elite institutions of learning, power and wealth.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 27 Jan 2017 12:50

Arjun wrote:Any alignment with the West should of course be subject to (1) the US aligning with India's concerns on China / Pak (2) no EJ promotion in India and (3) no restriction on Indian emigration to these countries and continued meritocratic access of Indian Americans or Indo-British to elite institutions of learning, power and wealth.

Quite a tall ask isn't it? I mean is it really feasible to believe that the West will agree to an alliance on those terms? After all there are enough entrenched elements who see us as civilisational threats/antagonists.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 27 Jan 2017 12:54

The only way to have a strong economy increased defence preparedness and active diplomacy to manage. Something like a "peaceful raise of China".

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 27 Jan 2017 13:04

Kashi wrote:Quite a tall ask isn't it? I mean is it really feasible to believe that the West will agree to an alliance on those terms? After all there are enough entrenched elements who see us as civilisational threats/antagonists.

The West will have to do its own very similar analysis as to who among Islam, China and India they prefer to align with. Russia will not be a major player in the long term (perhaps in the medium term they will continue to be relevant).

Good thing is the last couple of decades have thrown up a huge number of data points on China and Islam's "peaceful" rise...all this data should lead the West to the right answer hopefully.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 27 Jan 2017 13:59

Arjun wrote:The West will have to do its own very similar analysis as to who among Islam, China and India they prefer to align with. Russia will not be a major player in the long term (perhaps in the medium term they will continue to be relevant).

To me it seems, they have done some analysis of this and still seem to prefer to ally with China/Islam in a manner that is definitely not favourable to India.

Arjun wrote:Good thing is the last couple of decades have thrown up a huge number of data points on China and Islam's "peaceful" rise...all this data should lead the West to the right answer hopefully.

I wonder how much more data points do they want. US and NATO must have terabytes of data on Paki perfidy in Afghanistan and elsewhere, yet we see four star Amreeki jarnail talk about "incentivising" Pakistan and calling for enhanced cooperation and at the same time asking India to do more. Israelis, who face existential threat from Islamist terror and have done so for the past ~70 years, continue to ally with the worst of the lot in Turkey and Syria.

To me it seems that the West, China and Islam all see us as pushovers that are destined to fail sooner or later and can be kept on a leash with moderate effort.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 27 Jan 2017 14:17

Arjun wrote: That is short-sighted...in the long-term its going to be the West, India, China and Islam. China and Islam are our biggest strategic threats right now and for the forseeable future.

Wrong about China. Cheenis don't want to destroy Indic culture from inside. West does.

Cheenis don't want to destroy Hindus and Haines but west does.

Cheenis don't want to see all the temples mutts + all Indic institutions obliterated and replaced by paedophile rapist white western Caucasian Christianity ~ WEST DOES USA DOES UK DOES VATICAN DOES WESTERN EUROPE DOES !!!

You are as wrong about this as you were in supporting mms 10 - 12 years back.

So it's Islam and west that is our biggest threat not China.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Jan 2017 14:19

actually - all are threats, just in different ways

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jan 2017 14:34

mehico seems like the BD / SL of the western hemisphere. cannot find enough work for all / takes what it can get from its giant neighbour but spits on its face too. has an ally in "liberal" MSM who are in #blowtoDT mode.

their Govt has been unable to reign in the gangs who are engaged in a parallel economy with dozens of ISIS type beheadings and torture even in major urban areas like juarez. they have long ceased to be a stable place ...

I think from national security pov amrika might want to build up its ramparts a wee bit ...

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 27 Jan 2017 14:43

komal wrote:He is Nehruvian Socialist at heart. He has no understanding of economics.

As a businessman who is successful, as a celebrity who has been successful, IMO Donald Trump understands economics more than most of us. Stop letting your hatred of him blind you from the positive qualities he most certainly has. Democrats preach collectivism practice individualism. While the Republicans who preach enterprise practices protectionism. Donald not being a career politician who real affinity to the Republicans nor Democrats, has shown no similar inclination going by his past actions. SO your assertion that he is a Nehruvian Socalist falls flat on its face.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 27 Jan 2017 14:47

Manish_Sharma wrote:You are as wrong about this as you were in supporting mms 10 - 12 years back.

Rest later...but where is this coming from ?!? I was not even on BRF that far back..

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Jan 2017 14:50

his record as a businessman is hotly debated... I accept that he was adept at playing the system, and he clearly has a lot of fans

and just as the right likes to tell the left - shut up and get over it, I think blind devotion to trump (or any leader for that matter) without questioning is also not healthy

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 27 Jan 2017 14:56

svenkat wrote:
LokeshC wrote:...
Good one,LokeshC ji.

Dipanker ji,
I am not *that* dumb.The post is about khujli to the Establishment from....

Its quite trite but for Dipanker everything that does not concur with his world view is CT, propaganda, whatnot.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 27 Jan 2017 15:01

Arjun wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:You are as wrong about this as you were in supporting mms 10 - 12 years back.
Rest later...but where is this coming from ?!? I was not even on BRF that far back..

Inference. If somebody today doesn't see threat of "breaking india" by ej west and dreams of their help then he must have been impressed by great economist PM mms.

habal · Post by **habal** » 27 Jan 2017 15:08

It seems as if anarchists are trying to establish mainstream identity under guise of opposing Trump.

the yehudi news agencies are going to anarchist proxies to blackmail Trump.

sample this: comedy central 'writer' wants Baron Trump to date-rape his mother so that his small pee-pee would not hurt her yet it would win the mother-son duo millions in compensation. Stephen Spinola 'the writer' also tweets that he wants Baron Trump to be the youngest date rapist to be.

this is the real standard of USA under democrat govt. This is their support base.

another SNL writer chick wanted Baron Trump to be the youngest school shooter.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 27 Jan 2017 15:14

A_Gupta wrote: The real thing to note is that Trump is out to destroy the very system that the US spent the entire post-WW2 period building up in the first place.

Or Trumpanzee has noticed the inevitability of the systemic failure, that he has chosen to re-establish one on his own terms. Those who want to be with him or those who do not want to be with him can follow eleven. Either way, its unlikely Trump will leave the current system to be taken over by China. He would rather destroy it. He really does not need to do much, he just has to stand back and let the pieces fall where they will.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 27 Jan 2017 15:25

Rudradev wrote:
Yes sir. I have no doubt that we will, in fact, do far more than manage. With no need whatsoever of an alignment with the West.

RD saar,
100% agree with you. I have my own reasons for believing so. Could you if possible give your perspective?

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 27 Jan 2017 15:38

Lalmohan wrote:his record as a businessman is hotly debated... I accept that he was adept at playing the system, and he clearly has a lot of fans

and just as the right likes to tell the left - shut up and get over it, I think blind devotion to trump (or any leader for that matter) without questioning is also not healthy

Blind devotion? I am not your leftist or rightist. If you want to put me in a bracket, put me to even the right of RSS as I think RSS is too soft. I know where I stand and I do not even support Modi's policies blindly. For the record I have opposed his gold demonetisation while the much of BRF was going gaga. And within a short span I have been proven correct that it was a stupid plan and bad for common man. And going forward, it will be conclusively proven that it was dastardly.

I do not care if Trump is assassinated as per the demand on German national TV debate that was broadcast yesterday.

A true free market creature will play the market and Trump did. There is a apocryphal story which goes the 1st generation makes money, the 2nd generation increases it and the 3rd generation looses it. From what I see with Trump family, his kids seem not only very good looking but reasonably smart. While the jury is out there about what they would do with dads fortune, I do not really care about the outcome.

Deng said its glorious to be rich and Trump symbolises that perspective. Does it make him bad? Unless one listens to the day wage labourers who say 'Paise waalah hai chor'.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 27 Jan 2017 15:52

Looks like the Trump administration is planning to stop the Visa Interview Waiver Program (note: not the Visa Waiver Program that lets the EU/Aus/NZ etc citizens etc travel visa free). This is annoying as it impacts a lot of Indian travellers who can currently renew their non-immigrant visa via a dropbox or without an interview, if they are applying for a visa in the same category that they were already granted earlier and that expired recently.

http://www.huffingtonpost.in/entry/read ... 4605fd591d

Definitely a nuisance for business/tourist travellers from India...I was planning on using the facility for renewing my business visa.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jan 2017 16:03

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 11h11 hours ago
Miami-Dade Mayor drops sanctuary policy. Right decision. Strong!

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 23h23 hours ago
Ungrateful TRAITOR Chelsea Manning, who should never have been released from prison, is now calling President Obama a weak leader. Terrible!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jan 2017 16:08

we have never had a POTUS so clear and imperious in his like/unlike on twitter.

a section of desis on FB (NYT, wapo, cnn clientale) are going batnuts at this barrage of psyops and counter-pysops ... you would think the russian and chinese invasion fleets were within 15km of american shore on both coasts

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Jan 2017 16:08

Chelsea mannings statement was a bit more nuanced than what trump is tweeting...

panduranghari - trump's father made the fortune, Donald appears to have halved it... his kids may do well, they may not. their looks are unimportant in this discussion

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Jan 2017 16:09

Singha wrote:we have never had a POTUS so clear and imperious in his like/unlike on twitter.

and happy to spread variable quality of truth...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jan 2017 16:10

POTUSes are always like that. this one says what he wants openly and loudly. others are more sneaky & hypocritical and hence called 'statesmanlike'

BO sold some $115b of weapons to the saudis and provided tankers and BDA support to carry on their brutal war in Yemen, mainly bombing civilian infra because they ran out of mil targets long ago. the houthis are agile and hide under the rocks. a great statesman and healer of wounds. though I do not post in the yemen thread anymore I do follow it closely on twitter. I know

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 27 Jan 2017 16:26

Lest we forget (I had forgotten), the Bush Jr administration had an investigation looking for voter fraud that lasted five years and came up with essentially zero.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... arted.html

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Jan 2017 16:47

there have been a number of investigations of voter fraud in the US over the recent years and essentially they have found issues in a handful of cases. the far bigger issue is the active prevention of minority voting (particularly black people) that is engineered by republican administrations at the state level. this is not news - its been around for some time. this is why people get frustrated when el donaldito keeps harping on about voter fraud and linking it to latinos - he started it initially as a pre-emptive defence in case he lost. he persists with it because it might serve another purpose later. is it anymore dishonest than other US presidents? not really. but does that make it ok?

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 27 Jan 2017 17:16

Manish_Sharma wrote:Inference. If somebody today doesn't see threat of "breaking india" by ej west and dreams of their help then he must have been impressed by great economist PM mms.

Well, the inference is complete bollocks. My posts on BRF can anyway be searched for providing insight on where I stand...

Modi has tried his best and failed to move the Chinese towards India...if you think you have the ability to stop them from backing the Pukees and CPEC, then all the best to you !

Also, what I am suggesting is no different from what GOI and Modi are already pursuing. The conditions under which we should pursue this, I have listed out - which include kick to backside of the EJ gang.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Jan 2017 17:17

habal wrote:It seems as if anarchists are trying to establish mainstream identity under guise of opposing Trump.

Habalji! Be merciful, hainji? A suggestion like that b4 my morning Rooh Afza can get me banned in a jiffy if I post the logical extension/ proximate examples from what passes for my mind. Nearly did.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Jan 2017 17:33

the far bigger issue is the active prevention of minority voting (particularly black people) that is engineered by ****republican administrations at the state level****. this is not news - its been around for some time.

Lalmullahji, a bit of partisan boots showing under yuwar burkha there, hain? Those two bolded parts do not go with each other. The "active prevention" started as a continuation of the "civil" war. Started with such revered institutions as the Night Riders (who were mostly shot or hanged by Sherman's military polis, I believe). Until very recently, this has been a trademark of "Southern Democrats". The elephants were mostly in the cities, descended from carbet-baggers who came from Yankeestan. So until recently it was the elephants who waved the flag of Equal Rights, Adult Suffrage etc. It was the Democrats who waved the burning cross and pointy-headed bedsheet outfits.

But it is true that after the Reagan era, and perhaps more after the Morris Dees law firm destroyed the Ku Klux Klan and Aryan Nations' financial resources (sort of like Demonetization except it was a transfer of money from the KKK to the MD firm and its clients) more and more of the "Southern Democrats" started changing boats to the elephant boat. Jawjuh Lt. Gov then Gov. Zell Miller was a shining example (actually he was one of the better Govs to rule that steppe).

The Voting Rights Act came into force in the 1960s aimed mostly at the donkeys who were into this stuff - true that it was JFK who sent the 82nd Airborne into - was it Arkansas? to enforce the law. But it has been renewed mostly against the Democrats who keep trying to do "redistricting" after the "spelling tests" I gave above were abolished.

So! The basic instinct to cheat in elections is as old as Democracy. I am sure in places like Chicago and Cleveland it was highly refined by the local "Machines" that made the Mafia look like angels by comparison.

The precise modes change. I believe that now the illegal immigrant population is a convenient vote bank to tap, by the "right" people. Exactly how they do it/ did it is as mysterious and innovative as Putin managing to hijack the entire US election (no one in the US/BRF believes THAT, do they now?

) So let's settle down and watch the tamasha. As a disciple of Guru abhishekcc, can I be less respectful of initiative, hain?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Jan 2017 17:38

A_Gupta wrote:Lest we forget (I had forgotten), the Bush Jr administration had an investigation looking for voter fraud that lasted five years and came up with essentially zero.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... arted.html

But should that stop me from firmly believing that Bush won in 2000 by manipulating the voting machines in Florida, hain? Isn't there Freedom of Thought, I ask you!

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 27 Jan 2017 17:46

Singha wrote:we have never had a POTUS so clear and imperious in his like/unlike on twitter.

a section of desis on FB (NYT, wapo, cnn clientale) are going batnuts at this barrage of psyops and counter-pysops ... you would think the russian and chinese invasion fleets were within 15km of american shore on both coasts

This is actually a godsend. It keeps those holier than thou types busy foaming at the mouth and in a perpetual frenzy, and since they are occupied they at least the leave the rest of us alone for a bit

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 27 Jan 2017 18:04

"A businessman, by virtue of being successful, understand economics (or understands economics better than most)" is a ridiculous claim.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Jan 2017 18:38

ulanbatori - ofcourse if one goes back far enough in time one can validate that djinns made Pakistan out of Noah's left nipple. in the past 20 years, it has been mostly a republican problem - ha(n) ya na(n)?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Jan 2017 18:48

Shifting goalposts as usual, one presumes.... AoA! but we will play on the new pitch.

In the past 20 years, Democrats have not had much power in US House or Senate except early days of BiC (until first midterm election). Not in DupleeCity, not in the States. So this is why they were unable to repeal/stop renewal of the Voting Rights Act. I think it came up a couple of times.
OTOH, one associates "Just IS" dept with "Democrat" since Exec branch has been donkey for 12 of the 20 years, and 4 b4 that.

BUT.. they did have power in urban California in 2016, which is the point here. There is strong suspicion that they used it "well".

Having said that, I disagree with your "far enough back" etc. Some parts near Ulan Bator still rankle under Voting Rights Act, and they are very much donkeycrat. In fact most of rural ****** is still democrat-dominated, and they still try very hard to do re-districting.

habal · Post by **habal** » 27 Jan 2017 19:01

the attempted 'push back' against Trump shows how deeply establishment vested interests had gained ground even amongst reasonable people like whoopi goldberg, steven spielberg, dicaprio, SV it-vity types, professors and emiratus who were caught red-handed giving justifications on behalf of corrupt establishment and railing against Trump after decade of washing hands in establishment ganga.

This is a lesson that if one does not actively oppose the corrupt establishment, sooner than later many intellectual buddhijeebi activist types will slyly gravitate towards real centres of power while mumbling something or other to sustain their make-believe philosophies amongst their followers.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Jan 2017 19:03

UlanBatori wrote:Shifting goalposts as usual, one presumes.... AoA!

you are free to presume what you like - as am i. appreciate the info on your neighbourhood. all information is useful for illustrating the bigger picture