India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Jul 2020 08:48

Over 2 years ago I suggested that we go in for a light tank in the light of Doklam, and that the Ru Sprut would outgun China's deployed light tank. Some extra ERA added to it for better armour, would still be air transportable . After the PT-76 of '71 fame ,we've not replaced it with a new amphib light tank and the Sprut fills the bill. Sadly there is no desi programme on too,at least this req. could've been developed much earlier by Avadi in an R&D programme like the Tank X one some years ago. Now after whu-has-flung " dung" at us ,we are desperately seeking such a tank. Why we have to always resort to knee-jerk acquisitions in a crisis beats me.The worst enemy is the MOD not Chinks or Pakis.

Now the enemy is refusing to leave the territory encroached upon in Pangong Tso according to reports and Gen.Panag ( rtd.) says another division is reqd. by us in the light of their build up,etc. This is what the enemy wants, for us to permanently deploy large forces,tying us down at great expense while it forges ahead in the IOR. The good Gen.also says that DBO being so close to the LAC,within range of enemy arty,rocket forces, will be put out of action if conflict occurs. We will have no alternative but to destroy the PLAAF air bases in the region with sustained missile and air attacks. The scale of conflict will be intense, but we have little alternative- we have to stop them,then take the battle to where as of now we have a clear advantage,the IOR, by decimating their naval assets and capturing/ sinking their tankers and MVs.Djibouti should be laid waste to show African leaders what risks they run handing over bases to the PRC In fact if we had our 4 amphibs( again thank the MOD for their absence,L&T would've built them by now), we could've planned for an amphib. assault on Djib. If the PRC goes whole hog in the mountains then we must do likewisewhere is suits us bettter in the maritime domain primarily in the IOR.

Mahesh,"aggressive" build up over the last 6 years? What a joke! We've been " bordering" with the BRO at snail's pace for years in many areas without heavy eqpt.,why? Our MI-26s upgrade is gathering cobwebs in the MOD,the only heavy lift helos that can carry the heaviest road- building eqpt.Read the various official reports. Did we have sufficient troops in the zones of conflict either? No,because of our intel failure to spot the PLA infra which has been steadily built up for over a year.Please understand that this diabolic plan of the Chinks was hatched years ago. The PRC plans decades ahead,lulls its enemy into complacency through deception,then strikes when its victim least expects it. On all fronts the PRC is now almost simultaneously flexing its muscle.Ladakh and the simultaneous thrusts across the LAC elsewhere were done almost at the same hour,total coordination that took much time in advance planning.We asininely thought ,thanks to the MEA/ PMO, that grand tamashas of welcome to XI would be sufficient to keep him quiet on our front.The defence budget was cut,again and again inexplicably by this nationalist regime! Our obsession with Pak thanks to the Delhi Durbar establishment is why we are now in this predicament. Pak's continuing perfidy ,also part of the plan, kept us diverted .Balakot,etc. kept us looking westwards while the greatest threat to us from the east silently prepared to teach us and Modi another " lesson",'62 vintage.

It is only now after Galwan that we are furiously trying to make up for lost time with purse strings loosened because of the crisis.Shortfalls in ammo, missiles,aircraft, winter gear,border infra incomplete being accelerated,UAVs,etc.,etc.
If only these decisions were made just a year ago,we would not be as disadvantaged vs the PRC in Ladakh as we are right now . Even these emergency decisions will take time to fructify.Unless we lease aircraft immediately if available, ,it will take 2 years for the extra MIG-29s,MKIs to arrive.And please,the Hindu today is one of the few mainstream newspapers giving solid advice not rhetoric, on how to counter China on all fronts ,military,diplomatic and econonic, without giving in to its bullying tactics. It may have been the " Chindu" previously, the C has been dropped since Galwan. I argued with N.Ram for over a decade ago that our greatest threat was from China ,a JV with Pak in the future. He has just retired as chief of the paper after his 75th. b'day.Malini P has taken over . One looks forward to a consistent enlightened paper on the PRC henceforth.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 17 Jul 2020 09:38

Philip wrote:Over 2 years ago I suggested that we go in for a light tank in the light of Doklam, and that the Ru Sprut would outgun China's deployed light tank. Some extra ERA added to it for better armour, would still be air transportable . After the PT-76 of '71 fame ,we've not replaced it with a new amphib light tank and the Sprut fills the bill. Sadly there is no desi programme on too,at least this req. could've been developed much earlier by Avadi in an R&D programme like the Tank X one some years ago. Now after whu-has-flung " dung" at us ,we are desperately seeking such a tank. Why we have to always resort to knee-jerk acquisitions in a crisis beats me.The worst enemy is the MOD not Chinks or Pakis.

Now the enemy is refusing to leave the territory encroached upon in Pangong Tso according to reports and Gen.Panag ( rtd.) says another division is reqd. by us in the light of their build up,etc. This is what the enemy wants, for us to permanently deploy large forces,tying us down at great expense while it forges ahead in the IOR. The good Gen.also says that DBO being so close to the LAC,within range of enemy arty,rocket forces, will be put out of action if conflict occurs. We will have no alternative but to destroy the PLAAF air bases in the region with sustained missile and air attacks. The scale of conflict will be intense, but we have little alternative- we have to stop them,then take the battle to where as of now we have a clear advantage,the IOR, by decimating their naval assets and capturing/ sinking their tankers and MVs.Djibouti should be laid waste to show African leaders what risks they run handing over bases to the PRC In fact if we had our 4 amphibs( again thank the MOD for their absence,L&T would've built them by now), we could've planned for an amphib. assault on Djib. If the PRC goes whole hog in the mountains then we must do likewisewhere is suits us bettter in the maritime domain primarily in the IOR.

Mahesh,"aggressive" build up over the last 6 years? What a joke! We've been " bordering" with the BRO at snail's pace for years in many areas without heavy eqpt.,why? Our MI-26s upgrade is gathering cobwebs in the MOD,the only heavy lift helos that can carry the heaviest road- building eqpt.Read the various official reports. Did we have sufficient troops in the zones of conflict either? No,because of our intel failure to spot the PLA infra which has been steadily built up for over a year.Please understand that this diabolic plan of the Chinks was hatched years ago. The PRC plans decades ahead,lulls its enemy into complacency through deception,then strikes when its victim least expects it. On all fronts the PRC is now almost simultaneously flexing its muscle.Ladakh and the simultaneous thrusts across the LAC elsewhere were done almost at the same hour,total coordination that took much time in advance planning.We asininely thought ,thanks to the MEA/ PMO, that grand tamashas of welcome to XI would be sufficient to keep him quiet on our front.The defence budget was cut,again and again inexplicably by this nationalist regime! Our obsession with Pak thanks to the Delhi Durbar establishment is why we are now in this predicament. Pak's continuing perfidy ,also part of the plan, kept us diverted .Balakot,etc. kept us looking westwards while the greatest threat to us from the east silently prepared to teach us and Modi another " lesson",'62 vintage.

It is only now after Galwan that we are furiously trying to make up for lost time with purse strings loosened because of the crisis.Shortfalls in ammo, missiles,aircraft, winter gear,border infra incomplete being accelerated,UAVs,etc.,etc.
If only these decisions were made just a year ago,we would not be as disadvantaged vs the PRC in Ladakh as we are right now . Even these emergency decisions will take time to fructify.Unless we lease aircraft immediately if available, ,it will take 2 years for the extra MIG-29s,MKIs to arrive.And please,the Hindu today is one of the few mainstream newspapers giving solid advice not rhetoric, on how to counter China on all fronts ,military,diplomatic and econonic, without giving in to its bullying tactics. It may have been the " Chindu" previously, the C has been dropped since Galwan. I argued with N.Ram for over a decade ago that our greatest threat was from China ,a JV with Pak in the future. He has just retired as chief of the paper after his 75th. b'day.Malini P has taken over . One looks forward to a consistent enlightened paper on the PRC henceforth.

Very well put. I hope this taught a big a lesson to India and our leadership

Quick question on NRam and Chindu guys - Why did they try to crop papers to prevent India from getting Rafale? Who were they working for? China or USA?

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 17 Jul 2020 10:08

Let's see now. Over the last few years (3-4):

Roads:
- 200+km DSDBO road got completed.
- Sasoma-Saser La- Murgo road works happening.
- New bridge across the Shyok near the Galwan river.
- New road into the Galwan valley up to the triangle area
- Road through Umling La completed, providing an alternative route to Demchok. This is also now the highest motorable pass in the world at 19300 ft.
- Road up to Lipulekh pass completed.
- The Tezpur-Tenga-Bomdi La-Dirang-Se La-Tawang road, as fully metalled 2-lane road got completed.
- Alternate route to Tenga from Orang in the plains (OKSRT) road got completed.
- Work on the Shergaon-Manda La-Tawang road, bypassing Se La has made significant progress. This project also has spurs to connect to Dirang, Se La as well as the Bhutan border near the Sakteng wildlife sanctuary.
- Alternate route to Tawang (Lumla) via Bhutan (Trashigang) proposed to Bhutan as a BRO project. This would reduce the distance from Guwahati by 150km.
Tunnels:
- Chenani-Nasrani tunnel on the Jammu-Srinagar route completed.
- Alternative tunnel to the existing Jawahar tunnel (Banihal-Qazigund) to be opened this year or next.
- Rohtang tunnel completed (road not operational yet, though, but allows emergency traffic).
- Work on the 14-km Baralacha La tunnel under way. Remaining two mountain passes on the Manali-Leh route, at Lachunlang and Taglang also in various stages (idea is to make this an all-weather route).
- Zoji La tunnel work underway.
- In HP, Shinkula tunnel work in (connecting Lahaul and Zanskar) underway.
- In Arunachal, Se La tunnel work under way.
Railways:
- Jammu-Srinagar-Baramulla rail line is now approved for extension up to Kupwara. Not China related, but is still infra work benefiting border security.
- Char Dham railway project underway.
- doubling and electrification of the railway track through the chicken's neck area between Kishanganj-Siliguri completed.
- Double track further completed up to Alipurduar via the southern route (Jalpaiguri-Coochbehar).
- Doubling between Guwahati-Lumding completed.
- Electrification in progress towards Rangiya.
- A few (3?) years ago, the old MG track along the north banks of the Brahmaputra between Rangiya and Murkongselek (near the point where the Brahmaputra enters the plains of Assam from Arunachal) got operationalized as a BG track. This included spurs to Tezpur and Naharlagun (Itanagar).
- A cross-river section connecting the above line at Siripani to Dibrugarh Town in the southern banks got operational as well, via the Bogibeel bridge.
- Further rail work in good progress beyond Lumding via the Barak Valley to connect each state in the NE in progress (not directly related to China, but would help in moving logistics across these sectors if needed). Agartala is already operational, with a direct train to as far south as Chennai and Bangalore.
Bridges:
- Various bridges that were hanging fire for decades, literally, got completed.
- Examples: Bogibeel, Bhupen Hazarika (Dhola-Sadiya), etc.
- New bridges to be built across the Brahmaputra:
- Majuli-Jorhat
- Sibsagar-North Lakhimpur
- Silghat-north bank near Tezpur (this will be a rail bridge in addition to the existing road Kalia Bhomora bridge),
- new Saraighat bridge as part of the Guwahati bypass highway (Bharatmala highway program).
- These bridges will ensure a crossing every 100km or so (see my old post for the full list: viewtopic.php?p=2312590#p2312590)
Various operational ALGs have been upgraded with more underway - remember the C-17 landing at Tuting?

Anyone can see the list above and imagine the impact on our logistics potential. But we have senior posters who refuse to look at any of this and deride it as snail's pace and a joke. The joke is on them, actually!

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 17 Jul 2020 10:18

Philip wrote:
... I argued with N.Ram for over a decade ago that our greatest threat was from China ,a JV with Pak in the future. He has just retired as chief of the paper after his 75th. b'day..

Look at the devotion to sonia gandhi in malini parthasarthy's eyes:
https://twitter.com/MaliniP/status/9464 ... 11073?s=19

TWITTER

Malini Parhasarthy@MaliniP wrote:

Proud of my friend Sonia Gandhi who clearly has mastered the great challenge of letting go, a goal most of us are unable to do! Respect! https://t.co/6HR0JXRSQR https://t.co/dsf84vr1Ow

See the tweet link how much devotion is in Malini's eyes for sonia gandhi, read the tweet how devotional are her words.
Sonia-yechuri-N. Ram- Malini parthasarthy's, are celebrating that India and Modi are in danger. They belong to gang of Sonia-yechury-kavita Krishnan

Don't propagate 'Chindu' on BRF

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Jul 2020 10:59

Take the entire border infra planned and completed ,go by CAG,PAC and other official reports.When they were supposed to be completed ,when completed and at what cost. There is no denying that work has been done if late,but from the very urgent measures being taken up now it is an admission that we were slow and for various reasons unable to meet timetables. An RUSI London report in 2018 by Sashank Joshi said that MMS ok'd 73 roads to be built 10 years ago. After PM Modi ordered a push in 2018, it remained to be seen how effective we would carry out the orders as it had been extremely slow and ineffective.Even our IDSA had in the past commented on our lack of border infra vis-a-vis the PRC who had been steadily improving theirs.

The complete erroneous PRC foreign policy lulled us into taking our foot off the pedal as far as the border infra was concerned. We should've seen what happened in the ICS,island/ atoll annexations by force and anticipated the same.Movement on border infra. happened only after the Doklam event,when we had some inkling of the PRC's moves,but even that was put down to over ambitious local commanders,not a pre-planned exercise to test our response. Wuhan and Mahabalipuram tamashas sent our MEA into deep slumber about the PRC until Galwan rudely woke them up. It is only now that matters are being improved with extreme urgency.

The stop Rafale was allegedly a US conspiracy,as it was mightily pissed off not even being shortlisted if you remember,with its ambassador immediately resigning in protest. Thanks to Snake- Oil Singh's Mr.Clean-dhoti, " St.Anthony" aka the statue, nothing moved as various interests tried their best to wreck the deal.One allegation was that a certain Delhi " biker" from a prominent family was trying to hog the local part for his chum.The French too didn't make it easy with the huge costs and endless negotiations about the local partner. There were other aspects about the decision not transparent.Several media outfits questioned aspects and rightly so.If the UPA had pressed on swiftly,we would be manufacturing the bird,not waiting impatiently for a mere 36.

Media reports today say that the Depsang standoff is still a " sore point".The PLA has brought into the " Y" junction arty. and armoured forces.Troops are deployed in depth. The IA has described the disengagement as intricate.However ,we are still unable to see the " woods for the trees" with the PRC. We have to decide where we want to be on the international stage,set out ouf roadmap and relentlessly pursue it, despite the efforts of the PRC to belittle us,sabotage our interests as it is doing in many spheres. We should pay it back in the same coin creating such opportunities ourselves. This requres a complete about turn in national and establishment mindset, with fresh hands at key ministries in the bureaucracy. This crisis is a huge wake-up call for the country. A coordinated holistic pilicy is required to combat the PRC in the coming years as it flexes its muscles,especially at India.

PS: I am not propagating the Chindu,Hindu,TOI or any paper,but read carefully what individual columnists are saying.It is the only paper that I've read and I read them all,major ones,that has a v.insightful article by an Indian who studied in the PRC ,a fellow of a Taiwan univ.,and who has given the names and thinking of some the top PRC security individuals and their writings in the PRC media,enlightening us as to their policy of deception and warning us of worse to follow.
Bias clouds judgement. Malini P may adore SG,etc. but what the journos in the paper write is what one should focus upon not the bias if any of the owners. I've never agreed with N.Ram's PRC opinion for decades either.Times are hopefully changing.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 17 Jul 2020 11:31

When we have disproportionate advantage in IAF, we ignore it & feel that Chinese would have figured something out. Like change laws of Physics perhaps, while we beat our chest about unknown advantage of China in Artillery. What will happen to thousands, yes thousands of Indian 105mm, 120mm, 81mm apart from heavies 130mm, 155mm, Pinakas?

We have great masters & experts of Aeronautics here, but anything on Chinese PLAAF capability out of Tibet? Nothing, nada.

How many Chinese Air tankers would be available per day? 5?10? So strike sorties 10? 20? Compared to India 1000? Per day

We have T90s at 45 tons, T72s at 40 tons, BMP-2 with ATGMs at 15 tons but some people feel we are naked without Light 25 tons sprut tanks. Why? Where are we desperate without Sprut?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 17 Jul 2020 11:43

Whats loiter time of Chinese AWACS ? From where they will take off?

Where will China place ground radars? How will they look through mountains?

Artillery Crest clearance is problem only for India?

How light tanks China has? 100? 200? How many ATGMs India has? 100,000?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 17 Jul 2020 11:46

Range of Jaguar with 4000kg bombs? 500km?

2000kg, 1000km?

1000kg, 1500km?

LCA which has better Range than Jaguars. Can it hit LAC from Delhi? Delhi 600km from LAC!

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 17 Jul 2020 12:06

pankajs wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa_Yvqz6EvM

Suggestions for improvement made by Lt. Gen.Anbu (Retd) - from 27 min onwards (audio is not always clear, so summarizing here):

1. Satellite coverage with 24 hour periodicity over Kunlun Pass and major exercise areas of the PLA

2. Completion of Zoji La tunnel - Phase II

3. All weather access via Rohtang Tunnel - Darcha - Zanskar Sumdo and then to Nimmoo for Eastern Ladakh or then to Lamayuru and to Kargil. This is an alternate to the other route that requires tunnels at Baralacha La and Lachulung La (which are already in progress).

4. All weather (tunnel) access between Lamayuru to Thoise (not being considered as of now).

5. Dispersed Ammo dumps, POL dumps in forward areas.

6. Camouflage to survive first attack. I assume he means hardened shelters, tunnels, decoys.

7. Mountain specific equipment, particularly ATGMs mounted on light vehicles to take on PLA's mechanized thrust in SSN and Demchok. Battalion level UAVs for surveillance.

8. Disruptive capabilities like drone swarms, cyber attack, laser against UAVs.

9. Contact between Army Commander level and MEA to get better synergy in the CHG (Crisis Handling Group?), instead of going through MoD.

10. Operational control of ITBP to be with IA, similar to the Assam Rifles.

11. Extra Division to be stationed permanently to handle the Pangong Tso to DBO sector.

12. Historical data on events to be kept at post level and at HQ level.

rpartha · Post by **rpartha** » 17 Jul 2020 12:29

Philip wrote:Take the entire border infra planned and completed ,go by CAG,PAC and other official reports.When they were supposed to be completed ,when completed and at what cost. There is no denying that work has been done if late,but from the very urgent measures being greed with N.Ram's PRC opinion for decades either.Times are hopefully changing.

Philip, yes India has a long way to go... the only difference is - India has started mending it's ways and moving towards the right direction in the recent years compared to Manmohan Sojia Anthony era... that is the distinction we would like to make...

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 17 Jul 2020 12:37

Philip wrote:There is no denying that work has been done if late,

Right. Just so we are clear, this is what you described as a joke and "snail's pace".

Why these projects were not done earlier is best asked of the previous dispensation - for example, their own late leader promised the Bogibeel bridge as part of the Assam accord in 1986, but hardly lifted a finger to do anything about it. The project was basically in a shambles when Modi took over. Be that as it may, the work done over the past few years has clearly put paid to the old ways and can not be described as a joke by any stretch of imagination. Things have changed for the better, that's all is there to it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Jul 2020 12:45

Anoop wrote:Thanks, Karan. Can you address my question about whether the current PLAAF fighter cover drawback is really a critical one as far as their warfighting doctrine goes? Even if they don't address it, if they deny the IAF air superiority through the use of the SAMs you mentioned, doesn't it serve their purpose?

Their current fighter drawback exists. However, we have precious little information in open source about their deployment of A2/AD units around critical VA/VPs like AFB, inventory/types etc. I feel we can still prevail but it will not be easy. With regards to an air war, I am talking of going deep in and hitting their actual AFB and ranging deep into PRC territory. Not just tactical actions at the frontline but trying to take their AFB out of the fight. The Brahmos and Scalp have come at the right time, but then again, we need more real time sources as well on these sort of targets - the reason being SAMs are notoriously mobile and hard to target.

When I look at the ground interdiction role the IAF and IA Aviation Corps has to perform, some points come to light:

1. The G219 and the Ngari airbase are quite close to the LAC (10s of km and 200 kms from Pangong Tso respectively). In other words, to interdict them the IAF doesn't have to establish an air superiority over a large depth of airspace.

2. However, the terrain on their side is such that even if the G219 is interdicted, vehicles can ply off-road while repair work is done. So the effect of that interdiction is going to be temporary. In contrast, our DSDBO road has long bridges that if disrupted, will effectively halt traffic. On the Chinese side, there is a similar 100 ft bridge across the Indus from the North to the South bank that can affect the movement of their troops to the Indus river valley approaching Demchok.

I agree here, about the tactical actions in the immediate battle area being "easier" but also, we have to rely more on helicopters than AFB because Leh will be definitely targeted & getting strikes in from the other AFB will still involve a time on target penalty. We need a bunch of ready FOB from which we can surge choppers for air support and the logistics too need to be air mobile, as the PLAAF can seek to target them. I really think we should invest more in the LCH as well plus LR PGMs for the IAF strike fleet. Basically aim should be to go after any terrain features not just standard tactics re: hitting the vehicles themselves which cause a logjam in their traffic and then go for the traffic. They know it, we know it, so that's where they'll put their SAMs and MANPAD screens too.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 17 Jul 2020 12:59

Karan M wrote:They know it, we know it, so that's where they'll put their SAMs and MANPAD screens too.

We need the NGARM in numbers.... And bmos for high value targets/Sam sites. Numbers will make difference here. A Long range ARM like the kh31p should be handy.

What sort of a role can the jags play here? They'll probably need to take if from last altitudes but do they have the range?

Also, is there any possibility of using ARMs like kh31 in an anti awacs role? Or are they too clunky for moving targets?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 17 Jul 2020 13:35

Anoop wrote:Thanks, Karan. Can you address my question about whether the current PLAAF fighter cover drawback is really a critical one as far as their warfighting doctrine goes? Even if they don't address it, if they deny the IAF air superiority through the use of the SAMs you mentioned, doesn't it serve their purpose?

When I look at the ground interdiction role the IAF and IA Aviation Corps has to perform, some points come to light:

1. The G219 and the Ngari airbase are quite close to the LAC (10s of km and 200 kms from Pangong Tso respectively). In other words, to interdict them the IAF doesn't have to establish an air superiority over a large depth of airspace.

2. However, the terrain on their side is such that even if the G219 is interdicted, vehicles can ply off-road while repair work is done. So the effect of that interdiction is going to be temporary. In contrast, our DSDBO road has long bridges that if disrupted, will effectively halt traffic. On the Chinese side, there is a similar 100 ft bridge across the Indus from the North to the South bank that can affect the movement of their troops to the Indus river valley approaching Demchok.

<snip>

Depending on the scenario, we can speculate the kind of engagement that will be needed.

Local engagement @ Pangang Tso or Depsang plains, the 2 places where the Chinese still continue to block our regular patrol routes
- Would not call for either a IAF or PLAAF intervention
- Nor would it call for targeting G219 or Ngari.
- Most likely both the ground forces would have a go at each other with what Armies usually deploy
A broader conflict across Ladakh but still largely along the LAC for tactical leverage
- Would largely remain an Army affair
- Could involve some IAF/PLAAF elements but I would think DSDBO and G219/Ngari would not be on the target list.
- The IAF patrols are largely as deterrence
An all out war to recapture Aksai Chin by India or Redraw the LAC by China - Very unlikely.
- IAF would really come into the game and PLAAF fighter cover drawback would become critical. While the Chinese would deploy SAMs as a shield, I think, the IAF will go after the Radars and C&C infra of SAM batteries first. IAF attack would be preceded by a salvo of Brahmos trying to degrade the eyes and ears of the SAM batteries.
- 1. Agree ... For most part IAF would be operating not far from the LAC.
  2. When the balloon really goes up, while IAF will clear the way, IA will have to move in and occupy and control the ground. That is the only way to block G219 and control entry and exit from Ngari's back roads into the area.
    
    While the DSDBO road but especially its bridges are exposed, the Shyok valley bottom is really broad and there are roads and track all along the bottom. The new road but especially bridge just make the road all weather. Depending on the fighting season much traffic can be moved along the river bed. The major issue is only during summer when the river is flood prone with the melting Glaciers. The off-road logic of G219 also applies to the DSDBO road though to a limited extent and very dependent on the season.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 17 Jul 2020 14:11

Philip wrote:Over 2 years ago I suggested that we go in for a light tank in the light of Doklam, and that the Ru Sprut would outgun China's deployed light tank. Some extra ERA added to it for better armour, would still be air transportable . After the PT-76 of '71 fame ,we've not replaced it with a new amphib light tank and the Sprut fills the bill. Sadly there is no desi programme on too,at least this req. could've been developed much earlier by Avadi in an R&D programme like the Tank X one some years ago. Now after whu-has-flung " dung" at us ,we are desperately seeking such a tank. Why we have to always resort to knee-jerk acquisitions in a crisis beats me.The worst enemy is the MOD not Chinks or Pakis.

Philip, the problem is tit for tat purchases done by the MoD. There has to be innovation, why not LCH, Rudra or CAP to counter China tank buildup? I trust fewer air borne assets can deliver better results due to their super mobility. We can still have our heavy or medium armour to defend as well as piercing with better protection and under the cover of air borne assets.

PS: Assuming here, we will have at least parity with PLAAF or dominating them.

kirpalbasra · Post by **kirpalbasra** » 17 Jul 2020 14:22

vijayk wrote:
Philip wrote:Over 2 years ago I suggested that we go in for a light tank in the light of Doklam, and that the Ru Sprut would outgun China's deployed light tank. Some extra ERA added to it for better armour, would still be air transportable . After the PT-76 of '71 fame ,we've not replaced it with a new amphib light tank and the Sprut fills the bill. Sadly there is no desi programme on too,at least this req. could've been developed much earlier by Avadi in an R&D programme like the Tank X one some years ago. Now after whu-has-flung " dung" at us ,we are desperately seeking such a tank. Why we have to always resort to knee-jerk acquisitions in a crisis beats me.The worst enemy is the MOD not Chinks or Pakis.

Very well put. I hope this taught a big a lesson to India and our leadership

Quick question on NRam and Chindu guys - Why did they try to crop papers to prevent India from getting Rafale? Who were they working for? China or USA?

Did the Army Air force and Gov not learn lessons from 1999 ..no ..al ways plating catch up and that is so frustrating. You can put you house and you're family on a bet that's the chins will have learned a lesson and they will act on it.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 17 Jul 2020 14:35

Karan M wrote:All this emergency purchase hoop-la needs to be taken in stride. Please remember that this years (2019-20) Capex for the Armed Forces, esp IAF was considered enough to only meet committed liabilities. The new purchases - if they are not mixed up with the earlier purchases around 2019 - are expected to be around $1Bn. "Easily $1Bn" per media. Ok, make that $1.5Bn then, thats around $500 Mn per service, and around 10% of say, the IAFs Capex for example. In short, these are mostly spares top ups, some weapons additions, but not huge purchases of the kind the media reports suggest. At even $500 Mn per service, that translates to around a dozen deals per the revised Capex limits under emergency procurement. So two things - the services will be better prepared for a conflict for sure - the very nature of current inventory means most of the procurements will be imports, but more importantly your readiness to fight is improved. Second, these are top ups and plugging some basic holes. They are not changing the overall picture. The IAF is still at 30 odd squadrons, the Army still has gaps re: key areas, ditto IN. You will need far more than one set of sudden purchases to swing any difference in force availability or even positioning. In short, this is likely deterrence and holding off the PRC. Not some prep to take Tibet as some folks are hyper-ventilating on social media.

Modi will have to move on Capex. There is simply no other way now that the Chinese have shown their fangs despite his best efforts to charm Xi.

Also, Modi has a huge ego and does not take "insult/disrespect/<sub another more appropriate word> very lightly and Xi just did that despite all of Modi's overtures including allowing the Chinese a free pass into the Indian market for so long without anything to show in return.

Both the above points to me hint at a expanded future Capex budget.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 17 Jul 2020 14:39

Karan M wrote:Which is why there is a rush for state of the art surveillance gear from the 30 Sea Guardians to the 10 extra Herons for the IAF. They want to conserve valuable P-8I hours but also maintain round the clock surveillance over the LAC to ensure we don't get salami sliced again, and also, we don't have to maintain super expensive all-throughout-the-year deployment all across the LAC.

Plus expansion of the scouts.

This and other videos do point to an intelligence failure. GOI will not admit it publicly and the GOI connected advisors and analysts talk around it but the plans make it clear!

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 17 Jul 2020 14:49

Philip wrote:V.good analysis in the Hindu by Antara Singh. Researcher at the Delhi Policy Group.Sudied at Tsinghua Univ.PRC, Chinese Language Fellow at the National Central Univ. Taiwan.
She says we must study what the Chinese top Indian watchers are saying to understand their motives.

Xcpts:
1.No accident.
SIIS ( Shanghai Inst. for Intl.Studies).
An inevitable result of India's long standing strategy on the border ,"from Doklam to Kashmir,India's unending infra.arms race".
(If so,then to me it betrays the PRC's deep insecurity about holding onto Tibet,if India ups the ante.)
They say" Beijing was fed up and wanted to teach India a lesson"
Reasons.No great Sino- Indian relations in prospect,we are almost a US ally.To these PRC hardliners,China must reassess India from not being its main strat. challenge.It must show strong will and determination to deter its adversaries on its eastern front,by being tough with India. Also resolving the China- US problem bh first " breaking its arms and legs.India being one of the " limbs "of the US.

2.Handling a resurgent India.
Dealing with India by the "3 Nos":
"No weakness,no concession and no defensive defence."
The PRC must take all opportunities to " take down " India,hit hard whenever possible. It will produce the same effects as in '62.India will buckle down to PRC diktat. A weak India succumbing to PRC pressure. A well-known Delhi analyst has told me that it has been " total surrender" so far from our side. That is debatable but from inside knowledge.
Some sections of PRC strat. thinkers want the PRC " to destabilise the ENTIRE border region,fromthe McMahon line in the east to Aksai Chin in the west,taking the initiative to attack and seize territory from our part of Kashmir too.Weaken us inter nally by more support to Maoists,Naga separatists and Kashmiris. This willkeepus under control and force us to station huge forces on the LAC, diverting our attention from the IOR.
Part 2 later.

1. Not Tibet per say but their fear that DSDBO road will enable India to make a play for G219 as it emerges from Kunlun ranges and try regaining the Aksi Chin. Of course that will impact their hold on Tibet.

2. The Delhi based analyst has definitely redefined "total surrender"

3. Yea, the way to increase security around G219 and Aksi Chin is to force India to deploy more troops around Ladakh by "destabilizing the ENTIRE border AND making a play for Kashmir". What a brilliant strategy!

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 17 Jul 2020 14:54

I don't understand what are the timeliness we are talking about? Sept 2020? Or 2025-30?

If its Sept 2020, then no major purchase will materialize for use in War.

It will be primarily men, mules, machine guns & mortars. If we maintain our calm, we will destroy Wizard of Oz.

We need not go deep, we need to just keep our current territory & even if we capture one small terrain feature in Chinese hands, it will be a major victory

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 17 Jul 2020 14:55

yensoy wrote:Lines are bound to get hardened as infra developed on both sides, with roads being built up to the claim lines and beyond. So just as we have presumably been denied access east of finger 4, the Chinese will be denied access west of finger 4. His referred to our access road into Galwan as the cause of friction rather than DS-DBO road. An important point he made was that we also should not be in any hurry to settle the border because we aren't going to gain any land out of it - maybe it is like a banker who doesn't want to recognize a bad loan - but it can be played to our advantage as well.

The point about "not being in a hurry to settle the border" is based on the premise that the gap between India and China's comprehensive power will soon start to shrink which "might" open up the possibility for a better deal later. If we seal a deal now, that option will forever be lost given how "dharmic" we are as a country.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 17 Jul 2020 15:00

Gyan wrote:I don't understand what are the timeliness we are talking about? Sept 2020? Or 2025-30?

If its Sept 2020, then no major purchase will materialize for use in War.

It will be primarily men, mules, machine guns & mortars. If we maintain our calm, we will destroy Wizard of Oz.

We need not go deep, we need to just keep our current territory & even if we capture one small terrain feature in Chinese hands, it will be a major victory

Modi has been kicked in the Gut by Xi. While a movement on Capex won't have an immediate impact it will still prime us for the future. A major showdown is coming in about 10 years but specifically about 2030.

This is separate from the current India/China/US/Champa sea fracas.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Jul 2020 15:02

PS:Just a note in changing tack, Business Line,a Hindu publication has in its editorial page a piece, " Can the Quad rise to become an Asian NATO?"
It calls for the US to take the lead,make Asian states less dependent upon the PRC economically by opening up trade,tech,etc.to them,weaning them away from dependency upon the PRC and as a priority,roping in the ASEAN states.2 reasons for the rise of the Middle Kingdom.Nix-On's visit opening it up politically and Clin- Ton, opening it up economically. These are the two key reasons for the MK's rise today. To make the Quad effective like a NATO entity,the states all have to act in unison.Tall order,but must be seriously attempted .

PPS: Deploying troops all along the border is the aim of the PRC NOT that of the analyst! The analyst is quoting from top PRC military and security entities from their writings. The aim is to keep us landlocked mentally ,
spending much of our resources in the mountains while they concentrate on dominating the high seas,ICS and IOR.Why they are building up in haste the PN with a dozen+ subs,DDGs,FFGs missile craft,plus establish their troops in large number at Gwadar and in POK. The PLAN's warship and sub building capacity is unmatched by any other nation. It will far outstrip the IN by the decade's end.A string of bases,logistic facilities in the IOR ( pearls) will ensure their permanent presence.The latest $ 500 B deal with Iran has seen Iran boot us out of the Chahbahar railway portion of the project.Iran syas no agreement was signed with RITES,while we say project reports,etc,were drawn up. Iran is now going it alone,but thanks to PRC largesse.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 17 Jul 2020 16:42

https://twitter.com/IndiaToday/status/1 ... 4469526528

IndiaToday @IndiaToday

#IndiaChinaFaceOff | Distance between Indian and Chinese troops in #GalwanValley is now 3 km on each side. (By @AbhishekBhalla7)

Clearest problem ...
https://twitter.com/rajatpTOI/status/12 ... 4067634176

Rajat Pandit @rajatpTOI

Pangong Tso remains major problem. PLA troops have only moved back from “base” of ‘Finger-4’ to ‘Finger-5’, without also fully vacating ridge-line that dominates area. India wants PLA soldiers to move back 8-km to east of `F-8’, where LAC runs north to south. Pix: RM reaches Leh

The Army statement significantly did not mention the word “de-escalation” to clearly imply that the mutual withdrawal of troops, tanks, artillery guns and other heavy weaponry from the “rear areas” along the LAC is not on the cards for now. Eventual de-induction long way off.

More info .. does not look good.
https://twitter.com/NavroopSingh_/statu ... 8887141377

Navroop Singh @NavroopSingh_
China refuses to back off from Finger 4 area in Ladakh, India increases deployment of tanks near LAC

Kadi Ninda is in Leh today where he witnessed a para drop exercise. So ..

Same thing .. from Nitin
https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 8202677248

Nitin A. Gokhale @nitingokhale

Important demo

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 5781416965

Nitin A. Gokhale @nitingokhale

Good to know @rajnathsingh will be addressing troops at Lukung, a post on the bank of the Pangong Tso, not very from Finger 4.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1283983564669726721

Livefist @livefist

Plenty to pick up from this picture of Indian defence minister @RajnathSingh in Stakna, Ladakh today:

Rs_singh · Post by **Rs_singh** » 17 Jul 2020 19:26

Philip,

I read the article you mentioned in the Hindu by the author from Tsinghua university about China's India dilemma and I had to check twice if I was reading the correct newspaper. I have to agree with you there. I'll post a link here for those interested, do read:

https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/t ... 083539.ece

Rs_singh · Post by **Rs_singh** » 17 Jul 2020 19:39

pankajs wrote:

[/quote][/quote]

Pankajs,

There's much more going on than meets the eye. That the government has been silent and refuses to make any official statements clarifying what's going on is very telling in itself. Note, both times with our friends to the west, they had a briefing the very next day and more briefings later to clarify positions. No holding back then, so why be silent now? I bet they are being pragmatic.

One thing that even I missed was that there was a big fight a month prior to the clash in Galwan, I believe somewhere near Finger 4, in which upwards of 70 troops were injured and had to be airlifted to base hospitals. That the Chinese statements have never mentioned deescalation is another thing though I wouldn't pay too much attention to their words. The fact that our own statements have started leaving out status quo ante and de-escalation is more telling. RM mentioned something to the effect of uncertainty of outcome from talks.

There seems to be a consensus amongst former Northern Army Commanders that we were indeed caught napping. whether this is on the ITBP/MHA side, int side or MOD side is not something known yet and won't be for a while. int community folks have been repeatedly saying that they passed warning about this in early may and the Army brushed it off as routine.

I've stated here multiple times before that the PLA is using talks to delay action to the early winter months when having a protracted conflict becomes a nightmare for us and having a quick victory and walking back suits them.

There is no denying that the so called buffer zones are impinging on our territory, for now. I hope these don't become permanent. For that would indeed mean the LAC has on ground shifted Westwards while we can keep claiming whatever we want in principle.

PLA caught us at a time when our logistics would be at an inflection point. Stocks from last year would be depleted and the replenishment exercise for winter would have jus begin. The more I think about it, the more I feel that Galwan was not an accident but premeditated. I'll put my PL hat on and post a commentary on what may have happened in a bit.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 17 Jul 2020 20:19

I haven't watched the Lt Gen Panag full video. This is segment related to the current situation on the border put out by the Print. Worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcnv7CQoj7g
China suspects India is making roads to reach Aksai Chin: Lt Gen Panag

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 17 Jul 2020 20:29

Gyan wrote:When we have disproportionate advantage in IAF, we ignore it & feel that Chinese would have figured something out. Like change laws of Physics perhaps, while we beat our chest about unknown advantage of China in Artillery. What will happen to thousands, yes thousands of Indian 105mm, 120mm, 81mm apart from heavies 130mm, 155mm, Pinakas?

We have great masters & experts of Aeronautics here, but anything on Chinese PLAAF capability out of Tibet? Nothing, nada.

How many Chinese Air tankers would be available per day? 5?10? So strike sorties 10? 20? Compared to India 1000? Per day

We have T90s at 45 tons, T72s at 40 tons, BMP-2 with ATGMs at 15 tons but some people feel we are naked without Light 25 tons sprut tanks. Why? Where are we desperate without Sprut?

Its not on lac but overall capabilities I tried to compile here from this simplified amateur video :

2018 video on War Scenario between India and China: A Comparison

Indian Ground Troops:
Active Army : 1.2 million
Army Reserve: 960,00
Paramilitary: 1.4 million

Chinese Ground Troops:
Active army: 1.1 million
Army reserve: 510,000
Paramilitary: 660,000
--------------------------------

Indian Tanks
T-90M : 1300
Arjun: 124
T-90S: 300
T-72M1/2: 2000
TOTAL: 3500

Chinese Tanks:
ZTZ-99A: 350
ZTZ-99: 600
ZTZ-96A/B: 1500
ZTZ-96: 1100
ZTZ-88: 300
ZTZ-59/79: 2200
1050 various light/wheeled tanks
TOTAL: 7100
--------------------------------

Artillery:
Indian
Catapult 130mm, self-propelled: 40
2S1Gvozdika 122mm, self-propelled: 110
FV433 Abbot 105mm, self-propelled: 80
155mm, Towed: 500
122/130mm, Towed: 1120
105mm, towed 1350
MRL 300mm Smerch: 38
Pinaka MRL 214mm: 50
MRL 122mm: 150
TOTAL: 3435

China:
152/155mm, self-propelled: 760
122mm, self-propelled: 1650
152mm, Towed: 2100
122/130mm, Towed: 4100
300mm MRL: 175
107/122mm MRL: 1700
TOTAL: 10,395
__________________

Indian IFV/APCs:
BMP-2 Tracked IFV: 1800
BMP-1 Tracked IFV: 700
Tarmour Tracked heavy APC: 500
BTR-50 Tracked APC: 100
Wheeled APCs: 160
Anti-tank missile vehicles: 110
TOTAL: 3220

Chinese IFV/APCs:
ZBD94/ZBD86 Tracked IFV: 2150
ZBL09 WHEELED IFV: 500
Tracked APC: 4150
Wheeled APC: 2050
Anti-Tank missile vehicles: 900

TOTAL: 9750
__________________

Indian Transport Helicopters:
Mi8/17 Transport: 195
Sea King Transport: 11
Dhruv Light Utility: 230
various very light utility: 200
TOTAL: 636

Chinese transport Helicopters:
Mi-8/17 Transport: 250
Z-8/Sa321 Transport: 150
S-70 utility: 19
Z-9A light utility: 55
TOTAL: 474
___________________

IAF Fighters:
Su 30MKI: 235
Mig 29K: 45
Mig-29UPG: 63
Mirage: 51
Tejas: 10
Mig 21: 100
Mig 21 Bison: 40
TOTAL: 540
Chinese Fighters:
J-10B/C: 120
J-16: 50
J-11/J-15: 222
Su 30MKK: 100
Su 35: 5
J-10A/S: 315
J-11/Su-27: 145
J-8F/H: 145
J-7E/G: 300
J-7II/H: 120
TOTAL: 1520
___________________
Indian Conventional Missiles:
Klub Cruise Missile: Dozens
Brahmos Cruise Missile: 100
Prithvi Ballistic Missile: 200

Chinese Conventional Missiles:
AKD-20/CJ-10 Cruise Missile: 2500 Km
3M-14E Klub/YJ18 Cruise Missiles: 100
DF015B Ballistic Missile Range 800Km: 400
DF-11A Ballisti missile Range 600Km: 600
DF-21/CD Ballistic Missiles Range 2000Km: 200
DF-16 Ballisti missile, Range 1000Km: 50
DF-26 Ballistic Missiles, Range 3500Km: 50
___________________
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7810&start=5960#p2448399

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 17 Jul 2020 21:08

Gyan wrote:Range of Jaguar with 4000kg bombs? 500km?

2000kg, 1000km?

1000kg, 1500km?

LCA which has better Range than Jaguars. Can it hit LAC from Delhi? Delhi 600km from LAC!

Wiki says Jaguar Range is 3524 kilometers but doesn't say with how much payload.

I think Kartik wrote a post many months back saying Jaguar has longer range than Tejas

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 17 Jul 2020 21:24

Pankaj

Given the extent of deployments on both sides, there seems to be a desire on either side to get into a good negotiating position post-ceasefire. If firearms beyond section level are used (at which level, I am assuming that it could still be de-escalated, calling it an "unfortunate incident"), then it's a matter of which side gets to its objectives first and offers a ceasefire from a position of advantage:

- IF a quick ceasefire (say less than 1 week) is achieved, what objectives would India have? I think the terms of the ceasefire will be to establish a buffer zone to avoid further clashes, which also happens to be the guiding principle in the current disengagement. So where would we want the PLA to withdraw to? Most likely the objective will be to retake some dominant posts on ridgelines that secure our lines of communication

- IF escalation continues beyond that, I think infrastructure will be targeted on both sides. Because the build up has already happened because there will be no time lost in buildup. Judging by the fact that PLA has not dug in - they are generally out in the open, don't know about us - I think there will be significant casualties on both sides.

Frankly, given how little there is to gain and how much there is to lose, I don't think local commanders will allow things to go out of hand. It may yet end up that things will get settled with a bit of give and take on both sides.

williams · Post by **williams** » 17 Jul 2020 21:42

pankajs wrote:I haven't watched the Lt Gen Panag full video. This is segment related to the current situation on the border put out by the Print. Worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcnv7CQoj7g
China suspects India is making roads to reach Aksai Chin: Lt Gen Panag

In spite of the General's politics (a card-carrying member of AAP), there are 3 things that he said makes some sense

Chinese reacted to India building road until Hot Springs and Galwan Valley in the north.
DSDBO road is a goner it cannot be defended when the Chinese occupy the ridges. Again I am not sure what defensive measures we have made to protect this road.
DBO airfield will be useless on the first day of the operations. It is within the Chinese arty range.

So then why they did not attack is the question. Given Chins are aggressive, they could have escalated after the June 15th incident.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 17 Jul 2020 21:42

HV Thakur, test pilot of LCA MKI is on record saying that LCA range, payload matrix is better than Jaguar.

Armuan · Post by **Armuan** » 17 Jul 2020 22:04

Rs_singh wrote: ….
There seems to be a consensus amongst former Northern Army Commanders that we were indeed caught napping. whether this is on the ITBP/MHA side, int side or MOD side is not something known yet and won't be for a while. int community folks have been repeatedly saying that they passed warning about this in early may and the Army brushed it off as routine.

In case of such events where we were caught napping, what are the ramifications for the commanders? There was the accusation that we were caught napping during Kargil as well. What were the ramifications for the people responsible back then?

Are there reviews, disciplinary actions, and any corrective measures as part of a postmortem? I am not talking about things like Kargil Review Committee, but kinds of process in place for the army to address gaps, if any, in their SOPs, and identifying where and what level of command that these warnings were overlooked, and why.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 17 Jul 2020 22:08

Gyan wrote:HV Thakur, test pilot of LCA MKI is on record saying that LCA range, payload matrix is better than Jaguar.

^ Then its final as Shri HV Thakur himself says. Happy to hear that.

asgkhan · Post by **asgkhan** » 17 Jul 2020 22:39

https://www.republicworld.com/india-new ... roops.html

Frankly speaking, the fork tongued lizard while talking about de-escalation will be preparing to start troubles in areas not dominated by IA.

Time to do the following:

1. Get Dalai Lama to come down to Rashtrapati bhavan.
2. Stop this one China crap
3. Start raising human right violations against this commie thugs
4. Stop cheap imports.
5. Recognize Taiwan
6. Provide anti ship missiles and corvettes to Vietnam

We will have termites (media/ngos/dalaals) whispering how weak we are or trivialising any steps we take.

Ignore em and start kicking their collective rear-ends. I am sick of this sun-tzu quoting retards. There is no smoke and mirrors.

These neanderthals deserve a bullet and spiked shoe up their musharraf. Stop glorifying them.

They are not dragons, but slimy lizards. Treat them with contempt, not respect.

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 17 Jul 2020 23:02

pankajs wrote:
Important demo

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 5781416965

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1283983564669726721
Livefist @livefist

Plenty to pick up from this picture of Indian defence minister @RajnathSingh in Stakna, Ladakh today:

Lots to pick up indeed, but for me, more from the exercise video and less from the photo. The armor demo happened at Rambir Por near Leh. You can trace the Pangong Tso Lake road from there via Zingral, Tsoltak, Durbuk, Tangste, Muglib to Lukung Post that the RM is likely to have taken. From there to Gogra/Hot Springs via Piu La and Marsimik La would be a natural route to get armor - and as we know, that is a requirement. Readers will also remember YIP's post weeks ago about the importance of Marsimik La, Piu La and Ane La to get behind PLA positions at SiriJap (of course will be hotly contested).

Also gives context to the statement by Gen. Anbu about the need for a tunnel from "Lamaryulu or thereabouts" to Thoise for all weather access. Once that is done, it replenishes the axis from Thoise to support the defence of Pangong Tso and attack across Hot Springs/Gogra.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 17 Jul 2020 23:11

https://twitter.com/YusufDFI/status/1284019731209449472

Yusuf Unjhawala @YusufDFI

Army’s statement clearly shows the problems in getting disengagement let alone status quo ante and today Thakurji witnessed paratroopers in action, tanks etc to send a message.

As grim as it can get from the highest level - “Talks are underway to resolve the border dispute *but to what extent it can be resolved I cannot guarantee*. I can assure you, not one inch of our land can be taken by any power in the world”: Rajnath Singh

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Jul 2020 23:13

Yes,even I was rubbing my eyes at the piece. I posted another xcpt. from Biz Line about the Quad and asking the US to take the lead in forming an Asian NATO! Has the "worm turned"? I am all for the GOI keeping quiet about its mil. movements,etc.,but a bit mystified that in the age of sats and other IRST assets we weren't able to pick up the PLA build up earlier. The huge order for small drones indicates that this is a gap at the tactical level.From the pic. of the para with the DM,is he wearing HALO eqpt. or is it std. for the weather conditions there? One is less worried about PLAAF fighters (where we do have the qualitative edge) than their large numbers of AAA and SAM systems deployed.In all the wars we've had since Independence,aircraft losses from ground fire from stats were around 65-70% .From the trickle of news available from official sources,it's clear that the PLA have little intention from moving from their new squats.We will have to strike at them at some point in the future, in the interim building up as much firepower that we can muster in the form of arty,MBRLs,missiles,etc.,to cause maximum casualties to the PLA when the inevitable shooting starts. Thus far the PRC has got its way across Asia without firing a shot,by using bullying tactics.It has been decades since it has suffered mil. casualties as it has at Galwan,whereas India suffers casualties almost every day from Paki and Naxal terror strikes. This should be our strategy,causing unacceptable casualties to the PLA,plus capturing as many as we can for propaganda purposes.The sight of PLA dead bodies and prisoners on world media will humiliate it and its would -be emperor XI.The PRC bubble would've been pricked.

Right now border infra given a boost is great,but will take months if not a few years before we have achieved our infra. objectives. As some eminent former multi-starred veterans have pointed out,it takes days using winding roads to reach even short distances in the mountains.They advocate the increased use of helos,creating more helipads wherever needed ,in order to airlift troops in the shortest possible time.While we have approx. 200 MI-17s,excellent med. helos, we are short of heavy-lift helos.A handful of Chinooks and a few MI-26s requiring upgrades.Extra orders of both types should be made,with leasing out in the interim enough numbers required for the on the verge of being pensioned off.Even MI-35 assault helos,heavily armoured which we've used abroad in UN missions too,can be leased for the moment,as our few left are being gifted to Afg.crisis.These can be returned as new aircraft/helos arrive.

Rs_singh · Post by **Rs_singh** » 17 Jul 2020 23:44

It’d be a HAHO jump there not a HALO, given floor, rod and load. Another surprising thing for me, unfortunately, in this photo op, was that none of or commanders were wearing a sidearm, a vest or a helmet. If the purpose of this op was to send a message that “we are prepared”, then at least to professionals the lack of battle gear on officers is very telling. Probably intended for an internal audience.
I’ve said before, PRC is using talks to delay till winter when a longer conflict and a corresponding criticality of his long SRs become apparent. I don’t think we are done here. I hope we are not.

And yes, I’m ignoring your comment peddling mi35s

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 18 Jul 2020 00:11

TWITTER

@K_Singh1469:

MHA putting @SpokespersonMoD to shame once again

“The security forces have been asked to provide their requirement and to cut down on import of arms and ammunitions which can be easily developed with the help of local manufacturers,”

https://t.co/PCG4aMj992

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 62498?s=19