India-US Strategic News and Discussion

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 20 Dec 2013 17:43

What is interesting is that why NaMo and his party is not dialing pressure up on Kangress and getting limelight? Except initial reaction they have been quiet.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 20 Dec 2013 17:47

chetak wrote:
chaanakya wrote:No, M K Narayanan had foreign spouse. Needs to be cleared before marriage can be solemnised.

Yes, Sirjee.

But not MK but KR Narayanan, the late un lamented President

Lots of precedents onlee and this sort of drama seems to have started way back with another great mahatma the one and onlee Jawahar giving personal permission for KR Narayanan's marriage to a foreigner. And we all know how that turned out

KR Narayanan's wife eventually became a naturalized Indian citizen after the marriage. In this case, I'm assuming DK's husband is an Indian immigrant who took US citizenship. Her daughter might also be a US citizen. Anyway, it doesn't make much difference , she has to be brought to India. She can't stay in the US now, without being prosecuted. The Americans have refused to drop charges.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Dec 2013 17:56

nachiket wrote:
chetak wrote:{quote="chaanakya"}No, M K Narayanan had foreign spouse. Needs to be cleared before marriage can be solemnised.{/quote}

Yes, Sirjee.

But not MK but KR Narayanan, the late un lamented President

Lots of precedents onlee and this sort of drama seems to have started way back with another great mahatma the one and onlee Jawahar giving personal permission for KR Narayanan's marriage to a foreigner. And we all know how that turned out

KR Narayanan's wife eventually became a naturalized Indian citizen after the marriage. In this case, I'm assuming DK's husband is an Indian immigrant who took US citizenship. Her daughter might also be a US citizen. Anyway, it doesn't make much difference , she has to be brought to India. She can't stay in the US now, without being prosecuted. The Americans have refused to drop charges.

Therein lies the crunch.

She may not be allowed to leave until all charges are dropped. Hence papa khobragade's and salman the cursed's constant refrain that all charges be forthwith dropped and honor reinstated.

They may not even allow retrograde upgradation to full diplomatic status from the present consular status, per some reports.

Tough spot for the lady to be in.

How does this affect her future emigration to the US, if convicted and sentenced, does any one know??

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Dec 2013 18:03

chanakyaa wrote:What is interesting is that why NaMo and his party is not dialing pressure up on Kangress and getting limelight? Except initial reaction they have been quiet.

BJP has issued statements everyday just as GOI ministers have but they haven't gone to town .. Sensitivity of the issue and for the individual .. Even Mayawati only has come out with her usual comments once only.

If the GOI fails to deliver on its twin promise say by the next hearing on 13 January then the political game will start in real earnest and the lok sabha election season is just about starting. Right now everyone is united in condemning the US action, which IMHO is a good thing.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 20 Dec 2013 18:10

I do not how many have read Arthur Haileys "In High Places" and the character of Henri Duval.I have a 'sinking' feeling we might be fighting for a case similar to that.

Mods,delete if inappropriate.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Dec 2013 18:14

so long as this circus of all critical parts of the indian power elite 'placing' their sons/daughters via marriage and immigration into the US does not end, this unequal treatment will continue. even MMS daughter who last I heard was a ACLU lawyer is probably carrying a american passport by now! not having foreign entanglements must be strictly enforced for higher levels of babus and political appointees.

our elites can do nothing - not the congi regime for sure. and all the senior babus have their sons/daughters/bhatijas in the US.

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Dec 2013 18:14

I think that things were in control till the Delhi Police allowed Richard Philips to escape either for bribe or on instructions of higher up.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 18:17

well if a rabinder singh can be allowed to scoot or that other lady who was caught in intel ops, whats this richard guy?

MMS govt did a crawl, when asked to bend. now that perception is coming back to bite us, as the other folks think indian establishment is habitual pushover

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 18:19

Singha wrote:so long as this circus of all critical parts of the indian power elite 'placing' their sons/daughters via marriage and immigration into the US does not end, this unequal treatment will continue. even MMS daughter who last I heard was a ACLU lawyer is probably carrying a american passport by now! not having foreign entanglements must be strictly enforced for higher levels of babus and political appointees.

our elites can do nothing - not the congi regime for sure. and all the senior babus have their sons/daughters/bhatijas in the US.

our doyen of strat analysis also had the same issue and in his later years was pushing india should move into khan orbit line.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Dec 2013 18:19

Singha wrote:so long as this circus of all critical parts of the indian power elite 'placing' their sons/daughters via marriage and immigration into the US does not end, this unequal treatment will continue. even MMS daughter who last I heard was a ACLU lawyer is probably carrying a american passport by now! not having foreign entanglements must be strictly enforced for higher levels of babus and political appointees.

our elites can do nothing - not the congi regime for sure. and all the senior babus have their sons/daughters/bhatijas in the US.

Absolutely .. but what is the solution?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Dec 2013 18:22

I think a lot of the chinese oligarchs and 2nd rung political leaders probably have their kids in luxury in western world/aus but when their nations interests are concerned the real power brokers have no such weaknesses and act with absolute clarity....the rest fall in line or face time in mongolia re-education camp.

in terms of 'placing' people in US, our elites have everyone beat though....

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Dec 2013 18:23

Should we ban people with relatives abroad from holding sensitive government posts?
Should sons/daughters/bhatijas of senior bureaucrats be banned from studying/working outside India?

sunnyP · Post by **sunnyP** » 20 Dec 2013 18:28

It's amazing how outraged the political elite become when it's one of their own who suffers this kind of disgraceful treatment. When brave soldiers are beheaded at the border you will get a lukewarm response yet look at the outrage in this case. One rule for them and another for the so called commoners.

I hope the GOI find a way to get this lady back home safely. And before she is sent out on her next diplomatic mission perhaps she needs to attend a refresher course on how to start paying some attention to detail. First poor Devyani did not realise that she could not get flats in two housing societies under the '10 percent quota' rule and now this innocent mistake whilst putting her name to a visa application.

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Dec 2013 18:29

It seems both Devyani and maid wanted to stay in USA and both filed cases against each other. But Delhi Police helped gora s to spirit away Richard Philips and weak MMS has no problem with Gangrape of our lady diplomat. Devyani choose a weaker side.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Dec 2013 18:30

arun wrote:GOI needs to change its rule back to the status quo ante and ensure that Indian diplomats do not have foreign spouses.

it is still not allowed in military and intel services, don't know why other services should get a free pass. at the very least the spouse should commit to taking up Indian citizenship in a time bound manner.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 20 Dec 2013 18:34

The whole elite-Maino,Vinci,"Aiyar",Sibal,MMS,Prannoy Roy,Scindhia,NRam,Turdesai,Deora,Arun Jaitley,Maarans,Karus,EJ NGOs,Jaswant Singhs,Jagan/TDP have US-UK conection-children in US in positively harmful liberal arts colleges/law colleges.This is not the IIT/REC/MS/Ph.D STEM/software professional honest,hardworking,responsible intelligent crowd of BRF who have brought name and fame to India,to themselves,to their families.

Half of the Indian establishment is in bed with US.Hakim Sahib used to say we have our own RAPES and RAPETTES.

rgosain · Post by **rgosain** » 20 Dec 2013 18:37

Well Khurshi'd wife in from the UK, though I don't think that has anything to do with his insipidness and general subservience

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 Dec 2013 18:37

nachiket wrote:
KR Narayanan's wife eventually became a naturalized Indian citizen after the marriage. In this case, I'm assuming DK's husband is an Indian immigrant who took US citizenship. Her daughter might also be a US citizen. Anyway, it doesn't make much difference , she has to be brought to India. She can't stay in the US now, without being prosecuted. The Americans have refused to drop charges.

The bolded part might have made Amirkhans to think that she could probably be recruited and somehow it backfired and they decided to get back at her. My Low Level CT.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 20 Dec 2013 18:38

....

If the GOI fails to deliver on its twin promise say by the next hearing on 13 January then the political game will start in real earnest and the lok sabha election season is just about starting. Right now everyone is united in condemning the US action, which IMHO is a good thing.

Are you suggesting this is US court date? And what is going to happen? I think this dropping of charges thing is blown out of proportion. That is not how US legal system work. If they could drop charges, they would not have filed in the first place, especially when a federal crime is so much made public. They could reduce sentence but never ever drop charges. They have thought about this before filing charges. GoI asking the US to drop charges show either complete ignorance of the US justice system or it was meant to fool media and Indian public.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 20 Dec 2013 18:45

^^^
Yaad rakhoinga....................tumahara ye dawa yaad rakhonga.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 20 Dec 2013 18:54

Yeahhh woo hooo India giving muhtod jawaab to US............so went the daydream.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 Dec 2013 18:59

Diplomat arrest case: India demands apology from US, White House says no

India on Friday demanded a categorical apology from the United States in the Devyani Khobragade case, saying the country will not accept such behaviour in any circumstances.

"No formalities will be acceptable to us. They (US) should tender a clear apology. We will not accept this conduct against India under any circumstances. US has to understand that the world has changed, times have changed and India has changed," Parliamentary Affairs Minister Kamal Nath said.

The minister said the government has always maintained that the US has to apologise in the Devyani issue. "The conduct and attitude that US has shown regarding the Devyani issue is a matter of concern not only for India but also for all countries and everyone should raise their voice. Only regretting is not enough. They (US) have to apologise and accept that they have made a mistake," Nath said.

However, main opposition BJP was not convinced and insisted that the "weak-kneed" policy of the Indian government has led to this treatment by the US. BJP also pointed out that due to this attitude of the government, it would be difficult for India to make US bow before it. "The attitude that the Indian government has had in the past and even today towards America, the way they have supported America on every issue and the way they go on their knees before the US whether it is the nuclear deal or FDI in retail... its a long series it's difficult for us to fathom how the US will bend before such a government," BJP Vice-President Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi said.

The BJP underlined that US will have to apologise to India in the Khobragade case. "The US will have to apologise. This is an extra-ordinary event and not about the US and India alone. It is an example for the whole world that no diplomat can feel secure in such circumstances. So, they (US) should apologise, express regret and say that whatever happened should not have happened," Naqvi said

Note : This is Indian Express News . Has no connect with headline and the body of the news.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Dec 2013 19:02

chanakyaa wrote:
....

If the GOI fails to deliver on its twin promise say by the next hearing on 13 January then the political game will start in real earnest and the lok sabha election season is just about starting. Right now everyone is united in condemning the US action, which IMHO is a good thing.
Are you suggesting this is US court date? And what is going to happen? I think this dropping of charges thing is blown out of proportion. That is not how US legal system work. If they could drop charges, they would not have filed in the first place, especially when a federal crime is so much made public. They could reduce sentence but never ever drop charges. They have thought about this before filing charges. GoI asking the US to drop charges show either complete ignorance of the US justice system or it was meant to fool media and Indian public.

I read somewhere that 13th Jan was the date for the next hearing and so whatever is to be negotiated for Dr. DK has to be done by this date.

She has been moved by India to the UN with full immunity going forward. Still it firstly needs to be approved by SD and secondly they can choose to grant her retro immunity. Then when the case comes up it can be dismissed by the courts. Has happened before for a Saudi prince. All depends on on US of-course and it will be negotiated at the very highest level. If however, the US wants to make an example of Dr. DK then the case will proceed.

Now if the twin promise by the UPA are just empty words we will know by next hearing of the case. IMHO, NaMo and BJP seem to be waiting for the correct cue before they start hammering the UPA's faliure on this issue. When negotiations are going on to take partisan positions on such a sensitive issue will not look good. Once the outcome of the negotiations are known the politics can begin.

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Dec 2013 19:15

So First charge her with false case, gang rape her and then make India beg for retro immunity. Perfect example of MEA stupitidy, Delhi Police corruption and cowardly politicians. If our embassy could not game the steps of a maid in USA, how they will protect Indian interests? On side issue, I think the interest of Devyani to remain in USA in a cushy job with her US Citizen husband, led to this mess and potential blackmail of India in strategic arena.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Dec 2013 19:24

chetak wrote:<SNIP>
They may not even allow retrograde upgradation to full diplomatic status from the present consular status, per some reports.<SNIP>

One rediff article that I read quoted unnamed US sources that while the immunity may not apply from retrospective effect, they cannot ask or get a person with full immunity to appear in the court. We may have a case of in-absentia hearing and verdict. But I think this will destroy any chance of her working on US soil ever. In official or personal capacity.

And the US State Department is bound to receive load of flak from domestic audience if they give full immunity with retrospective effect and basically allow her to go 'Scot free'.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Dec 2013 19:28

7.24 pm: Facebook group organises rally in support of maid in NY A Facebook group has been gathering support for a rally in front of the Indian consulate in New York city in support of Sangeeta Richards. "Please join us for an international day of action to support the domestic worker exploited by the Deputy Consul General of India. Devyani Khobragade was arrested for lying to the State Department in regards to the terms of employment listed on the visa for her nanny and housekeeper in New York," a post on the group said.

Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/world/devyani- ... ef_article

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Dec 2013 19:36

It is no doubt a colossal failure of our gov., foreign policy and out babus in-charge no matter what the outcome.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Dec 2013 19:39

in any US led wolf pack, the best that India can get is this:

The Omega Wolf:
Male or Female scapegoat (bears the brunt of the pack's frustrations and harassment and may be the last to feed, or will go without food when it is scarce).
Is the lowest rank of any wolf pack. They are constantly being picked on, yet they are a very important part of a wolf pack. The omega relieves tension within the pack, and is the last to eat. And sometimes, the omega gets picked on so much, they become lone wolves.

Mahesh_R · Post by **Mahesh_R** » 20 Dec 2013 19:42

Sir...just curious....the whole world is watching the tamasha and no one has guts to say a word...
we are so lonely in this whole world...none..not a single voice supporting us...feeling bad with the Foreign Policy we have in place..which made us look like a punching bag and no respect

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Dec 2013 19:43

US action against Devyani: Classic American double standards?

Is the US decision to arrest and strip search Indian diplomat Devyani Khobrgade on charges of visa fraud, sparking a major diplomatic row with what it calls an "incredibly important" partner, a case of classic American double standards?

It would appear so going by at least two recent cases relating to Saudi Arabian and Russian diplomats.

At Thursday's State Department press briefing, spokesperson Marie Harf had no clear answer to the difference in the treatment of Khobragade and "Saudi diplomats who allegedly committed even more egregious crimes."

According to the questioner, two Filipino women were rescued escaping the Saudi diplomatic military attachÃ©'s residence in a Washington suburb. But "no Saudi diplomats have been charged, none of them have been cavity-searched."

All that Harf could say in response was that she "was not aware of all the details of that case" and didn't "want to make a comparison about why something was or wasn't done."Each case is different, though," she suggested. "Obviously, we take any (such) allegation very seriously and we investigate them when they're brought to our attention."

But the case against the Russians really takes the cake particularly since it took place in the very borough Manhattan's India-born US attorney Preet Bharara, who has brazenly defended his actions against Khobragade as based on the principle of equality before law.

His office's "sole motivation in this case, as in all cases, is to uphold the rule of law, protect victims, and hold accountable anyone who breaks the law - no matter what their societal status and no matter how powerful, rich or connected they are," he said.

It took his office ten long years to make a case against 49 Russian diplomats and their spouses charged with scamming Medicaid, a government health care programme for low-income families, out of $1.5 million over a decade. All of them worked in New York either at the Russian mission to the UN, the Russian consulate or the Russian trade representation office when they committed the alleged fraud.

But Bharara could not lay his hands on any of them. For by the time he filed charges just a week before he chose to act against Khobragade, only 11 of them remained in the US. But none has been taken into custody as they all have diplomatic immunity.

Ten of them are diplomats working with the Russian mission to the UN and their spouses, and one is now stationed at the Russian embassy in Washington. But at the time of the charged offences, he was employed at the consulate in New York.

Harf Thursday suggested that Khobragade, who has been transferred to India's permanent mission to the UN, would not have "retroactive" immunity after her change of status from consular officer to diplomat. If so, how come, the Russian diplomat working in Washington is roaming free when the offence he is charged with took place when he worked at the Russian consulate in New York?

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 20 Dec 2013 19:43

India, US will come to logical conclusion: Salman Khurshid
What is this logical conclusion? the logical conclusion for US need not be the same as logical conclusion for us.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 19:47

Mahesh_R wrote:Sir...just curious....the whole world is watching the tamasha and no one has guts to say a word...
we are so lonely in this whole world...none..not a single voice supporting us...feeling bad with the Foreign Policy we have in place..which made us look like a punching bag and no respect

dont think that. there are a lot of countries equally teed off with khan high handed ness who are watching this issue with interest, and observing india taking a stand which some might even appreciate. they wont publicly utter a word though, why would they.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 19:49

venug wrote:India, US will come to logical conclusion: Salman Khurshid
What is this logical conclusion? the logical conclusion for US need not be the same as logical conclusion for us.

khurshid, family acolyte and dynast supporter, used to pompous talk and attacking the opposition, now struggling to stand up for the right thing.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Dec 2013 19:49

Singha wrote:in any US led wolf pack, the best that India can get is this:

SNIP...........

And sometimes, the omega gets picked on so much, they become lone wolves.

I thought that we already were.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Dec 2013 19:57

cross-post
-----------------
Amid row over diplomat's arrest, US bags key aircraft deal

New Delhi: India will be procuring six more C-130J Super Hercules Special Operations aircraft from the US, a decision significantly taken in the midst of a diplomatic row between the two countries over the arrest of Devyani Khobragade.

The proposal to procure the six C-130J Super Hercules special operations transport aircraft from the US in a deal worth over Rs 4,000 crore was taken at the meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) headed by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, sources said here.

habal · Post by **habal** » 20 Dec 2013 19:58

the arrest of Tejpal, have we busted a spy ring. During NDA times, Tejpal bought about the Bangaru Laxman tapes and some other spy tape that implicated BJP in corruption which ultimately bought about their defeat. The source of these tapes may not have been entirely known to us.

Mahesh_R · Post by **Mahesh_R** » 20 Dec 2013 20:01

pankajs wrote:US action against Devyani: Classic American double standards?
1) "Saudi diplomats who allegedly committed even more egregious crimes."

2) Harf Thursday suggested that Khobragade, who has been transferred to India's permanent mission to the UN, would not have "retroactive" immunity after her change of status from consular officer to diplomat. If so, how come, the Russian diplomat working in Washington is roaming free when the offence he is charged with took place when he worked at the Russian consulate in New York?

Sir..can the GoI hired lawyer can argue in the court showing the cases 1, 2 above where USG didn't act and argue that DK case is much smaller or its a similar case hence DK case should also be cleared of all the charges ???
If not atleast put the USG in a spot by making the court to get an order to file the charges for 1, 2 ?

I do understand its risking our relations with both the 1, 2 countries but if it the last resort to save our diplomat then why not ???

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 20 Dec 2013 20:01

Mahesh_R wrote:Sir...just curious....the whole world is watching the tamasha and no one has guts to say a word...
we are so lonely in this whole world...none..not a single voice supporting us...feeling bad with the Foreign Policy we have in place..which made us look like a punching bag and no respect

The world is watching both amirkhan and dhesh. One who backpeddles will lose respect. Amirkhan will be seen as totally unreliably for even diplomats(specially for the countries that don't have much power). Anyway, it seems kurshit is already backpeddling. No, the kongis sarkaar is not going to do anything anymore. They are just going to beg and at best send some dossiers.

----
If a maid can compromise you so much, what can a spouse or child do? Someone mentioned Homeland series. In the series, in one of the previous seasons, it is shown that CIA can use children living in amirkhan as bargaining chip to recruit foreign diplomats.

Rahul M wrote:
arun wrote:GOI needs to change its rule back to the status quo ante and ensure that Indian diplomats do not have foreign spouses.
it is still not allowed in military and intel services, don't know why other services should get a free pass. at the very least the spouse should commit to taking up Indian citizenship in a time bound manner.

So, babus and nethas are exempt from these rules? Nice!

----
CT:
Both this incident seems to have another angle:
Army chief gets an award from Amirkhan.
MMS is a huge fan of Amirkhan.
SSM seems to be close to Amirkhan also.
MSM's ties with amirkhan are well-known.
NGOs are funded and rewarded by amirkhan.

So, who is left? It seems only the lower and middle level babus are still holding out. Maybe, there are two groups. Pro-amirkhan and not pro-amirkhan.

Maybe the immediate trigger is BD. But, in the long term, the attempt maybe to tame the lower and middle-level babus. Recently, Lokpal was passed and Lokpal is also mainly going to moniter the lower and middle-level babus. And there was a recent court order that babus must have fixed tenure.

rajithn · Post by **rajithn** » 20 Dec 2013 20:14

I believe that it is the IFS cadre that is keeping the heat on. salman kurshid and MMS want to capitulate. They so badly want this to go away. They will get DK out by giving something away to the Khans on the sly - perhaps the first step was the clearance of the aircraft order by the CCS chaired by MMS. Today!i expect more to be given away and voila... A solution will finally emerge by DK paying some huge fine in reparations and brought back to India.

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Dec 2013 20:16

I am astounded by clearance given to C-130 deal, the munna could not wait even a few days? No more posts from me, am aghast at this shameless corrupt government.