Bharat Rakshak

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 15:31**

>>At the same time they lost goodwill of many Indians which they may not care much perhaps.

At the very least, it would have woken up many IFS officers about what the strategic relationship is all about.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 15:33**

chaanakya wrote:To this end they violated VC and are open to such action by India in future. At the same time they lost goodwill of many Indians which they may not care much perhaps.

Even if the situation is retrieved on the lines I have suggested the above will remain the key takeaway. The US have themselves opened this door forever. The American will have no one but themselves to blame if any future India gov. decides to reciprocate in kinds followed by a similar non-apology.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 15:37**

This is a gross error of judgement by the US. They are prone to making it from time to time, failing repeatedly to read India right.

My opinion:

Bharara was just a tool. What has happened, it looks like is some sort of Intel op gone disastrously wrong because of a bit more vindictiveness than was necessary during the endgame. And that vindictive lash-out seems to have originated at much lower levels and was plotted up to mid-level using personal favours etc... But they did not expect this sort of over-reaction by Bharara who has his own agenda and may have been in the dark about the full backstory (so he decided here was an easy brownie point score politically)...and they most certainly did not anticipate this reaction from Indian public opinion.

But it left a whole lot of high level types executing a farcical juggling act on both sides (openly in India hidden in the US) to salvage the situation. A few people will get their asses handed to them in the state department that's for sure.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 15:45**

svenkat wrote:chaanakyaji,
A test for you.
"Thoongaravanai ezhuppalam,thoongara madiri nadikaravanai ezhupamudiyathu"
I think you 'pride' yourself in knowledge of Bharathiya bhaasha-s.
Translate above statement to english for benefit of BRFites.

Why this chaddi utaro session for me Venkat ji.

You are in Chennai. Call me and I can come and meet you anytime.

Roughly it means.
You can not wake up those who are pretending to be asleep.

Am I right?? Did I fail with negative marks?

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 15:52**

One thing that is happening is that it is being restricted to EAM level. And apart from that letter, Kerry also seems to have gone silent - meaning that according to them, a violation has taken place & they are going about as through this is like any other crime. So they are playing this game & the pressers also seem to indicate it.
ENglish laloo Khurshid was talking about this and now it has trickled to lower levels.

Well played MMS. Well played. You have shown that you will not even stick up for your own countrymen. And you are tthe PM of India.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 16:00**

JE Menon wrote:But it left a whole lot of high level types executing a farcical juggling act on both sides (openly in India hidden in the US) to salvage the situation. A few people will get their asses handed to them in the state department that's for sure.

JEM, you sure about this? From whats appearing outside at least, it appears they are least bothered. In fact the open statement that DK would still be liable for prosecution etc shows that they are not willing to back down & are backing their people to the hilt.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 16:03**

they look least bothered , but it has caused some h@d damage, they never acknowledge that.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 16:06**

svenkat wrote:chaanakyaji,
A test for you.
"Thoongaravanai ezhuppalam,thoongara madiri nadikaravanai ezhupamudiyathu"
I think you 'pride' yourself in knowledge of Bharathiya bhaasha-s.
Translate above statement to english for benefit of BRFites.

With chanakyas translation, one gets what you mean...

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 16:06**

Article 53
Beginning and end of consular privileges and immunities
1. Every member of the consular post shall enjoy the privileges and immunities provided in the present Convention from the moment he enters the territory of the receiving State on proceeding to take up his post or, if already in its territory, from the moment when he enters on his duties with the consular post.
2. Members of the family of a member of the consular post forming part of his household and members of his private staff shall receive the privileges and immunities provided in the present Convention from the date from which he enjoys privileges and immunities in accordance with paragraph 1 of this Article or from the date of their entry into the territory of the receiving State or from the date of their becoming a member of such family or private staff,whichever is the latest

This article of VC also grants privileges and immunities to members of private staff of a member of consular post . SR also had similar immunity and was exempted from local laws to the same extent.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 16:08**

krishnan wrote:they look least bothered , but it has caused some h@d damage, they never acknowledge that.

yeah, but look at their track record of similar incidents. people involved in such stuff are given a pat on their back and shabash.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 16:09**

chaanakya wrote:Spot on. End Game has started from Congi side. Anand Sharma is first to GUBO after Salmon the Cursed.

Devyani Khobragade case not to impact India-US commercial ties: Anand Sharma
NEW DELHI: The ongoing spat between India and US over the diplomat Devyani Khobragade issue would not impact commercial ties between the two countries, commerce and industry minister Anand Sharma said here on Saturday.

"India was outraged over the treatment given to Devyani but our relationship with the US is far too important. It is a strategic partnership between the two largest democracies of the world. Strategic in every sense, so we are not disengaging. This relationship will go stronger," Sharma told reporters here.

"In mature democracies, issues get addressed. Issues are not allowed to cast an ominous shadow on what is truly a building partnership," he said.

Mr Anand , better arrest one US DSG and charge them and see the reality of your relations and test your statement. I hope this would not affect the relations Why don't you try once or your blood has turned into water lost all heat?? Next GE 2014 GFY to congis.

Bwahahaha....mega climb down onlee.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 16:25**

Karan M, that's my opinion.

So, not sure.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 16:28**

Hmm yes JEM...one wishes they'd be rational about this and behave so. Only thing is judging from their past incidents like this (there was a link earlier on in this thread), they seem to revel in power...
One only hopes our babus have taken this issue to heart and understood what all those strategic ally and other fancy terms are really worth.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 16:55**

Devyani arrest: BJP withdraws invite to US envoy for Modi's rally

MEA sources say India was not worried about Devyani's diplomatic status. Sources said they are aware that past cases will not go away with change in diplomatic status, but immunity from future fresh charges if any, summons or arrest pending outcome of trial can be attained. Sources said with the UN immunity, the final judgement in the case can be delivered but not implemented.

MEA sources added that retrieving Devyani's passport from the US court is not a concern at all. Sources said India is well within its rights to issue fresh passport to its national if she has to travel back or be shifted out to some post.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 17:37**

On twitter I see many people who usually tweet along national interest but on this Devyani score sound a lot more like those Aam Aadmi types, speaking about low wages to maid, Adarsh flats owned by Devyani, etc. even though it has zero relevance to the current situation.

Really a shame. They have simply forgotten when it is about national interest and when it is internal politics.

May be PM-in-waiting Narendra Modi should give some thought on downgrading Indo-US relations to simply trade missions aka Taiwan. He has any way said that in the future, politics among countries is going to be commerce oriented mostly.

Na rahega baans, na bajegi bansuri!

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 17:49**

Exclusive visa to nanny exposes trust deficit
CHARU SUDAN KASTURI

New Delhi, Dec. 20: The US state department recognised Sangeeta Richard as a victim of trafficking as far back as July at a time New Delhi was asking Washington to help trace her, exposing its deep mistrust of India’s claims that the nanny at the centre of a diplomatic row was an absconder.

The state department awarded Sangeeta a T-1 visa, exclusively given to victims of human trafficking. In December, it handed her husband Philip a T-2 visa and their daughters T-3 visas, which allow family members of trafficked victims to join them in the US.

These new details, confirmed to The Telegraph by multiple Indian and US officials, challenge the perceptions of differences between the state department and US attorney Preet Bharara whose move to arrest diplomat Devyani Khobragade has exploded into a rare public feud.

They instead suggest that the state department headed by John Kerry has implicitly believed Sangeeta, who has accused Devyani of ill-treating and under-paying her, over New Delhi for months, paving the way for the diplomat’s arrest on Bharara’s orders last week.

The decision to award the T visas to the Richards makes it even harder than otherwise for the state department to drop the charges against Devyani as that would also withdraw the sanctuary currently available to the nanny. The US has been trying to nudge India to consider an out-of-court settlement with Sangeeta as a face-saver — an option Delhi has so far rejected.

(US state department spokesperson Jen Psaki said any change in Devyani’s accreditation status that would finalise her transfer to the UN mission would not provide a “clean slate from past charges”. However, Psaki refused to “speculate” whether the transfer could prevent Devyani from being arrested again or enable her to leave the US, Reuters reported late tonight.)

What has upset India — which is demanding that the charges against its diplomat be dropped — the most is the manner in which the state department chose to quietly give Sangeeta legal cover for her stay in the US at a time India was looking for her.

“This was a breakdown of trust and of transparency in a manner that you simply do not expect between friends,” an official here said, before referring to phone calls from secretary of state Kerry and undersecretary for political affairs Wendy Sherman to Indian officials over the past two days in which they expressed “regret” for the manner in which Devyani was treated after her arrest.

“This was behind-your-back stuff, and I’m not sure the trust can be repaired in a day or over a phone call,” the Indian official added.

External affairs minister Salman Khurshid today said he remained hopeful of a speedy resolution, emphasising “conversation”.

“I do believe that so long as we are in conversation and do meaningful conversation, we will get our conversation to a logical conclusion and there is an outcome one way or the other,” Khurshid said.

But it is precisely a breakdown in “meaningful conversation” that brought India and the US to the current dispute, officials now accept, despite over 30 annual platforms at which officials and ministers discuss bilateral ties.

The disconnect was technical to start with, when Devyani and her husband tried to file a missing person complaint on June 24 after returning the previous day from a weekend trip to New Jersey to find that Sangeeta had disappeared. The New York Police Department refused to register the complaint because only relatives can file a missing person complaint against an adult.

India revoked Sangeeta’s official passport. Devyani and her husband then tried to file a criminal complaint against the nanny in a court in New York, accusing her of attempted extortion, after Sangeeta allegedly sought $10,000 at a meeting with the diplomat at an immigration lawyer’s office.

They argued that Devyani still held what looked like an official Indian passport that could be misused.

The plea was rejected by the court on the grounds that the allegations of extortion were weak and that the government passport had already been revoked.

The decision by the Khobragades to approach the New York court raises questions about India’s stand that the issue could be sorted out only under domestic laws.

By then, Sangeeta, through her attorneys at Safe Horizon — a non-profit organisation based in New York — had already applied for a T-1 visa, and, unknown to India at the time, received the visa before the end of the month.

“This is a status given by the state department exclusively for victims of human trafficking to stay in the US and assist in the legal process,” Dana Sussman, Sangeeta’s lawyer at Safe Horizon, said from New York.

Devyani then approached Delhi High Court, and on September 20, obtained an injunction barring Sangeeta from seeking criminal or civil prosecution against her outside India. The external affairs ministry informed the US embassy in Delhi of the injunction on September 21.

Three days later, on September 24, the state department replied through the embassy, disagreeing with India’s version, stating Sangeeta’s visa status and cautioning New Delhi about the possibility of criminal proceedings against Devyani.

India rebutted the US claims and asserted that the high court injunction barred any action against the diplomat on foreign soil but got no response.

In the multiple months between September 24 and December, Indian officials probably mistook the silence for an undeclared or grudging American acceptance of New Delhi’s position. During this time, India appears to have relied on the local legal process rather than on aggressive backroom diplomacy or activation of contingency measures.

In October, Delhi police filed an FIR against Sangeeta and Philip and in November, a Delhi court issued a non-bailable arrest warrant against Sangeeta.

On December 6, India — here in New Delhi and through its embassy in Washington — again communicated with the state department, this time to inform American officials of the non-bailable warrant.

Six days later, Devyani was arrested. By then, the US had issued the T visas and flown out Philip and his daughters.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 17:55**

>>The US state department recognised Sangeeta Richard as a victim of trafficking as far back as July at a time New Delhi was asking Washington to help trace her, exposing its deep mistrust of India’s claims that the nanny at the centre of a diplomatic row was an absconder.

...while Indian side says:

>>“This was a breakdown of trust and of transparency in a manner that you simply do not expect between friends,” an official here said

Is this seriously what our babus thought Indo-US relations were about? These guys are our strategic experts and leaders

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 17:58**

Public Quids and Private Quos.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 18:02**

Honest Injun Qn: What eqvt quos have we got till date for meeting Khan over TSP and every issue, plus giving them mega deals..

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 18:08**

by Private Quos, I mean politicos and babuz have got it, not that We (public) got anything in return. Publicly we got our woman insulted . That is the standard technique of victor over vanquished. Bji has theorised about this in detail. Invaders , britishers used to do that now our "friend" is doing it.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 18:23**

With Sangeeta Richards most likely a spy - India's reaction will be compared to the Brazilian action: How US spying cost Boeing multibillion-dollar jet contract

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 18:24**

Csaar
Just amazed at how naive these statements appear to be...hopefully they are for public consumption but it seems unlikely.
One hopes a Modi led admin wont be similar.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 18:25**

Guys I hope it is not inappropriate here but one thing we seem to be missing is the religion angle. Let's face it, maids in India (at least in western India) are usually from certain ethnic groups who are fast converting today. US aligned interests give them a lot of sops once they are part of the fold. I have seen this in the US consulates/visa handling agencies when I was a frequent visitor there a few years ago; a disproportionate number of Indian employees there match this profile. Not criticizing anyone here, just pointing out a fact. It's quite possible that the maid simply was encouraged to bail by sympathetic people.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 18:26**

Need to keep an eye on when the non-reciprocal benefits to amreekis in India will be restored. I expect that the amreekis will push for full restoration of benefits before elections.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 18:31**

Arjun wrote:With Sangeeta Richards most likely a spy - India's reaction will be compared to the Brazilian action: How US spying cost Boeing multibillion-dollar jet contract

In contrast shri MMS uvach:

Today, with the balance and perspective offered by the passage of time and the benefit of hindsight, it is possible for an Indian Prime Minister to assert that India's experience with Britain had its beneficial consequences too. Our notions of the rule of law, of a Constitutional government, of a free press, of a professional civil service, of modern universities and research laboratories have all been fashioned in the crucible where an age old civilization met the dominant Empire of the day. These are all elements which we still value and cherish. Our judiciary, our legal system, our bureaucracy and our police are all great institutions, derived from British-Indian administration and they have served the country well.

Of all the legacies of the Raj, none is more important than the English language and the modern school system. That is, if you leave out cricket! Of course, people here may not recognise the language we speak, but let me assure you that it is English! In indigenising English, as so many people have done in so many nations across the world, we have made the language our own. Our choice of prepositions may not always be the Queen's English; we might occasionally split the infinitive; and we may drop an article here and add an extra one there. I am sure everyone will agree, however, that English has been enriched by Indian creativity as well and we have given you R.K. Narayan and Salman Rushdie. Today, English in India is seen as just another Indian language.

The idea of India as enshrined in our Constitution, with its emphasis on the principles of secularism, democracy, the rule of law and, above all, the equality of all human beings irrespective of caste, community, language or ethnicity, has deep roots in India's ancient civilization. However, it is undeniable that the founding fathers of our republic were also greatly influenced by the ideas associated with the age of enlightenment in Europe. Our Constitution remains a testimony to the enduring interplay between what is essentially Indian and what is very British in our intellectual heritage.

The reason I post this here, is when "leaders" seem to think that even colonial rule of the worst kind formed on the basis of uprooting local institutions and replacing them with pale copies of the original, was benign, everything else also follows.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 18:59**

Karan M wrote:Bwahahaha....mega climb down onlee.

Mega climbdown in BRF public asking for retaliatory action by India as well since the reality about US-India relation is sinking in

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 19:04**

Arjun wrote:With Sangeeta Richards most likely a spy -

That was my initial gut reaction for why a T-visa was issued to the family of SR, but then why did the GoI allow the family to fly out of India, if a case was pending. The incident of missing SR is six months old. So the family could have been considered a flight risk. Or is it that there exist no provision in the laws that allow for such detention of family members ? In this case they were party to the crime as they sought dependent visas in the same category, and could have been stopped at least before taking flight.

So either someone dropped the ball on the Indian side to allow this to happen, or SR was not a spy as in missing documents etc from the mission which were brought home perhaps. GoI did not think it needed to pursue SR beyond the minimal effort of formalities in letting the State dept know of someone who went absconding who came in to the USA on a A-3 visa.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 19:04**

The US has been doing strip search and other things to indian high value targets for some time now. Every time they get away by expressing regret because the UPA had no spine. Now, USA is taken aback by the sudden show of spine by UPA. This is nothing but vote bank politics from UPA and even here also UPA has shoot them selves in their foot by demanding a action from US in public - dropping of charges - which is like asking them to sideline their system. But they forget that the US does what is good for them and not like what the UPA wallas will do is good for their vote bank. Now watch how again UPA will denigrate India but slowly taking cover behind "discussions, progress and conversations" eventually back down and will watch silently as the indian diplomat will be jailed. Just like how they backed down every time PLA intrudes into Indian soil. And some body from India will visit NY to resolve the issue and say "NY is such a wonderful place and I want to stay back here..."

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 19:06**

Sridhar wrote:Only the embassy in Delhi is sovereign territory - the consulates in other cities are not provided the same degree of protection as the embassy. Hence, my question specifically was about Marine Corps personnel in Mumbai, Chennai etc., not in New Delhi.

I am not saying that we should charge anybody under the Arms Act. I am only saying that could be an example of violation of the local laws by personnel in the consulate. Application of reciprocity in that case would hurt, and could be used to get a resolution to this case, and more generally, for the US to see some sense.

Consulates themselves are 'US sovereign property' IIRC. As long as they keep any arms on the premises, they are OK. Raymond Davis wannabees are not.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 19:08**

Sagar G wrote:
Karan M wrote:Bwahahaha....mega climb down onlee.
Mega climbdown in BRF public asking for retaliatory action by India as well since the reality about US-India relation is sinking in

dont know about the BRF public, but the UPA govt seems to be in full downhill ski movement onlee. let alone act tough, they cant even talk tough.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 19:11**

Karan M wrote:dont know about the BRF public, but the UPA govt seems to be in full downhill ski movement onlee. let alone act tough, they cant even talk tough.

As if Indian public is any better.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 19:15**

There is the other thing about "Emigration clearance required" for certain categories of low skilled workers. Would not all checks be done when the immigration officer sees a T-visa issued. That in itself should raise an alarm one would think, unless it is a regular event and people are flying out daily in large numbers on T-visas out of Indian airports.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 19:17**

Bade wrote:
Arjun wrote:With Sangeeta Richards most likely a spy -
That was my initial gut reaction for why a T-visa was issued to the family of SR, but then why did the GoI allow the family to fly out of India, if a case was pending. The incident of missing SR is six months old. So the family could have been considered a flight risk. Or is it that there exist no provision in the laws that allow for such detention of family members ? In this case they were party to the crime as they sought dependent visas in the same category, and could have been stopped at least before taking flight.

So either someone dropped the ball on the Indian side to allow this to happen, or SR was not a spy as in missing documents etc from the mission which were brought home perhaps. GoI did not think it needed to pursue SR beyond the minimal effort of formalities in letting the State dept know of someone who went absconding who came in to the USA on a A-3 visa.

Actually I am not getting into all of that. This whole business of spiriting away Indian citizens, or 'evacuating' them as the US puts it - seems highly suspect and definitely should not be encouraged. The SOP in all such cases, especially when the person spirited away had access to GOI information - should be for the government to assume that the person evacuated was a spy...If the US denies Sangeeta is a spy - let them allow access to Sangeeta and family on the part of Indian intelligence agencies.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 19:20**

Karan M wrote:
... In fact the open statement that DK would still be liable for prosecution etc ..

Just a thought: immunity cannot be retroactive. However, now that DK will have future immunity means that she does not have to appear in court and she cannot be held against her will.

This whole charade IMHO, is likely to be resolved along the following lines: DK will be declared persona non grata. This is a SD imperative and would preempt any judicial action. She would then leave and can reappear in the US under the UN immunity.

I'm not as sure as I was that this was an intel op gone wrong. I now think this was over zealousness by Safe Horizon and its supporters in NYC and the US Embassy who did not think the consequences through or did not care.

Now, I am trying figure out if the people behind this fiasco overlap with House Resolution 417 (defeated) which slammed India for violation of minority rights. Keith Ellison the muslim rep from Minnesota was the prime sponsor.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 19:35**

The climb-down is complete - more begging on the way....

Either our foreign policy execution arm does not understand strategy & the importance of leverage or we just do not have the political will, to take action against anybody who does us harm. Either way, this is going to end in a bad way for DK.

US should understand value of partnership: Salman Khurshid

We have an extremely exceptionally valuable relationship with the US and I do believe that they have similar sentiments about us...and it must understand value of partnership...

I speak to America through diplomatic channels and my diplomatic channels have been interrupted. That is my concern. That was my agony that my diplomatic channel has been interrupted

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 19:36**

what a farce. complete begging.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 19:41**

Indian retaliation

Well enjoy the moment India, this is what you get when you choose fake leaders.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 19:52**

Must have directed by queen. Waiting to hear what bjp and NM says.

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 19:59**

My two cents:

With the identity of the US State Dept official revealed as Uzra Zeya, it lends some weight to the theory that this might be a case of co-ordination between two over-zealous employees (with personal agendas) in State and DA, which has now blown out of proportion.

If so, all US diplomatic staff in India must feel the pain, so it becomes in their own interest to ensure that no employee repeats the same mistake. Even if this is an top-down operation, there is no harm in amir khan staff feeling the "principle of reciprocity". So far, some options discussed are

1) Throw some gay US consul staff in jail.
2) Same as above but for a trivial offense (traffic/parking violation).
3) Make it difficult/impossible for US consul staff to employ any domestic staff (as suggested by Sridharji).

Option 1 will invite contempt from every liberal country in the world.

Option 2 doesn't affect the world, but will enrage US aam aadmi and unite them with USG against India, increasing the stakes.

Moreover, it's questionable if Congress has the cojones to pull off 1 or 2.

Option 3, if possible, is benign and has great piskological utility. You are not touching the security of the embassy. You are simply removing the servants, and making the Americans clean their own bathrooms, as is truly the American way. This should piss off a few senior staff, used to the comforts of "third world" postings.

In USA, Joe six pack doesn't have any servants, so can't imagine him feeling sympathetic. On the contrary, if played properly, it could be used to turn public opinion by portraying diplomats as the privileged 1% living a life of luxury overseas.

Unless one digs into the facts, the high level optics of this case are quite bad against DK. India is associated with caste/servitude/exploitation in America, and this is precisely the narrative being built by the DA. Indians can cry themselves hoarse that 30k INR + boarding/lodging + foreign posting + free air travel is a great deal for most Indians, but it won't garner any sympathy from the Americans. They simply don't have any domestic staff, and their perspective is colored by the numerous horror stories in media.

However, shining a light on the lifestyles of American consulate in Delhi could help. Did the article say that Uzra Zeya lives in 5 Aurangzeb Road in Delhi. Isn't that where where the cream of India lives? Wonder how many servants are in the household of the assistant secretary of human rights, and what do they get paid.

This is how the Indian media should spin it:

American consuls are the logical successors of British empire, living in the same palatial residences that Lutyens built for the original colonizers, employing dozens of staff and paying them mutiples below US minimum wage. Isn't this where the real exploitation lies?

On the other hand, DK is a working mother with two school going children, living in a (comparatively) tiny apartment in Manhattan, employing one maid/nanny to help with the chores. Half of Wall Street front office staff (mid level and up) who live in Manhattan have a nanny or au-pair. You can see army of philipinas in central park during business hours. It's pretty unremarkable, and pales in comparison to a house on Aurangzeb Road (though US aam aadmi probaly hates Wall Street more than India).

Posted: **21 Dec 2013 20:01**

BRakshaks!

It is Obama/Kerry vs. the IFS where Congress (Salman, Anand, etc) are blaming themselves. IFS is not backing down and it is now opened how Obama and Kerry are helping the Islamists against Dharmics.

So! Recognize the culprits and do the needy.

NRIs should have never voted Democractic party! Democratic party has traditionally sided with the Islamists.

Bharat Rakshak

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