South India River Water Issues/Disputes

kshatriya · Post by **kshatriya** » 15 Dec 2011 02:43

Theo_Fidel wrote:
SwamyG wrote:Hmmm, what do you mean by that?
Tamil speaking is not same as Tamil nation. The Chola or the Pallava or for that matter the Pandya never considered themselves as representing a Tamil nation. Tamil people sure, literature absolutely, not Nation or State. No such thing existed.

Kongunadu for instance resisted being absorbed by the Chola's and Pandya's and carved out its own destiny. Even the Tamil spoken there is very different.

Nice BS... Talk about Inventing History( hijacking Tamil Hindu culture along the same lines as Bharatnatyam becoming Christian dance) ... Chola's , Pandya's did not consider themselves as Tamil nation ?...Great...May be try talking to the remnants of the Chola Royal Family in Tanjore...

Do you even know the connection between Kongunadu and Cholas.. Kongunadu Tamil is different because of Prakrit.....

You have been distorting Tamil Hindu History on other threads ...Didn't want to comment before.. I come from a family who is an original inhabitant of the KonguNadu and have had a major stake in its development. And Yes I know its history more than anyone...So don't try to BS me with distorted History or redrawing its borders

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 15 Dec 2011 03:09

Theo: Right of the top of my head I can tell you, Silappadikaram, differentiates between Northern Aryas and other Southern Kings. It calls out 'tamil country' and 'tamil kings' - at least the English translation. I think there has been an unmistakable chain of thoughts of what constitute the tamil kingdoms over centuries.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 15 Dec 2011 03:37

Theo_Fidel wrote:East Palakkad district is mostly Tamil speaking. The entire Pallakkad district was once with TN before it was traded to Kerala. Know your history. Atleast before you use a term like idiotic so you don't come of looking like a fool.

What logic and history is this Theo?

Historically, Palakkad has a royal family (Palakkad Raja) and they follow Kerala traditions. Story says that it was this Raja who invited Tamil Brahmins to Palakkad. My family is from eastern side of Palakkad town, and we have been there for centuries, as far as we can check. We go to both Palani and Guruvayoor, just to show that even though we are of Mallu stock, we are not exclusivists. Most of the Tamils you see in Palakkad are settlers.

As for the argument that entire Pakakad was part of TN, why don't you make the claim that entire Malabar was part of TN.... well British Madras Province - to be accurate.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 15 Dec 2011 04:01

SwamyG,

This is OT but...

To be a nation you must share more than a language. Most importantly you must share an ethnicity and history as well. Tamils today are not one ethnicity. What you see as a Tamil nation as written by Seethalai was written for a Chera King who ruled both Madura & Kerala. I think you be very surprised at what his description of Tamil nation would be. Look at what he has to say about Pandiyans, esp. Pandiyan women. And how women should behave. And where Kannagi's 'Mountains'/Temple are. Is this shared Tamil history. I don't think so.

Shyam,

Tamils may be settlers in Pallakad but most have been there a long time. I was just exploring the logic of land exchange to soften this Mullaperiyar long term tussle. No offense intended.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 15 Dec 2011 04:21

Naturally, Illango Adigal was partial to the Chera kings and praises Cengkuttavan; and downplays the Chola and Pandiyan Kings. That does not mean he did not consider them to be Tamil Kings. The Tamil Kingdoms were at the throat of each other, no doubt. You are using modern definitions of nation, ethnicity ityadi. What did the people consider themselves as in those days? Based on literature, it is evident they considered themselves to be tamilians and clearly distinguished themselves from others Kingdoms - near and far.

Whether one desires or not, wants or not, needs or not; it is shared history - extreme tip of Southern India and the Northern regions of Srilanka definitely had shared history, culture and language. It does not mean they sang Khumbaya all the time.

Minor nitpick, it was Illango Adigal who wrote Silappadikara. Seethalai wrote Manimekalai - the sequel.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Dec 2011 09:33

good going.. finally seeing there is no disputes here on river water.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 15 Dec 2011 09:42

Rajasthan, Gujarat draw battle lines over Mahi waters

Tak says Gujarat did not take Rajasthan into confidence before launching the project as stipulated in an agreement signed between the two states in 1966. The MP told TOI, "Of the 1.29 million acre feet (MAF) of water in Kadana dam on the river, 0.39 MAF was meant for Rajasthan according to the agreement. Our share of the water is being diverted to industries in Gujarat in the name of irrigation. Gujarat has said it would use excess water in Sujalam Sufalam, but that is not true. I wanted to bring this to Union government's notice so that responsibilities can be fixed for breaking the treaty."

Gujarat officials say Rajasthan was comfortable with Sujalam Sufalam as long as Vasundhara Raje was heading the BJP government there. With a change of guard and the Congress coming to power, Gujarat is being accused of short-changing its neighbour.

In that sense the headline is misleading. There are no "battle lines" and it is not such an emotive issue.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 15 Dec 2011 11:14

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Dileep wrote:Nagarcoil region is flat terrain, where you can place the border as you please, but the hills, the geography itself had created a border. That is why the current demarcation, unless already established before state re-organization, is based on watershed in that region. If water flows westward, it is KL. If water flows eastward, it is TN.

Anyway, redrawing the state border is out if question, just like redrawing national borders. It is NOT a matter for debate.
This is not correct. The state border does not follow watershed. It was considered but administration questions and convenience mattered a lot more than even language dynamics. Keralites will never admit it but the head waters of the Periyar originate in Tn. TN also administers a 2-5 km strip along the rim of the Cardmom hills much of which functions as the head waters of the Periyar. I have seen a report made in the 80's that shows that 8% of Mullaperiyar water and about 12% of entire periyar water originates in TN admistered land. Admittedly this is not a lot compared to the full water shed.

Another false claim and propaganda by TN. Yes, TN babus did try to climb up the cliffs and install 'janda'(sic?) to claim a foothold on the west of the cliff in an attempt to claim water. The action was disguised as a dispute over the Mangaladevi temple. This happened when I was in school, ie 70s. It was fought back by KL then, based on the watershed principle. That claim is no longer active in the TN govt.

You can verify the geography there on Google Earth. It is a fantastic tool that propagandists often forget.

vina · Post by **vina** » 15 Dec 2011 11:24

Guys. Relax. Like I said, just get some beer and popcorn and sit back and watch the political circus.

A sane editorial in Al-Hundi , that broadly reflects sanity and what I already posted here.

1) This case should be confined to the courts and the corridors of technical committees and commissions.

2) There is no way in hell that anyone can decide on the merits , demerits , safety or any issue based on mass mobilization and agit prop. This is a technical issue and needs to be discussed as such.

Al Hundi of course goes the extra "commie" way and drops the usual anodyne about "Issues of life and livelihood" which I have no quarrel with. As the Op-Ed states, Just Cool it.

Just Cool It

With the Centre lacking in both political will and moral authority to help find solutions to inter-State disputes, it needed the Supreme Court of India to step in to cool tempers between Tamil Nadu and Kerala on the overheated issue of the Mullaperiyar dam. Putting first things first, the five-judge Constitution Bench of the Supreme Court asked the two States not to arouse people's feelings and create a fear psychosis on this issue. Clearly, the situation was threatening to get out of hand with chauvinist elements on both sides trying to shut out reasoned debate on what was essentially a question for technical experts to resolve. Neither political leaders nor lay people can contribute meaningfully to making decisions about the safety and stability of the 116-year-old dam. On the directions of the Supreme Court, the Empowered Committee, headed by the former Chief Justice of India A.S. Anand, is looking into all aspects of safety of the dam, and will soon submit its findings — on the basis of expert assessments. The proper course, as the Supreme Court pointed out, is to wait for the recommendations of the committee. The matter must not be left to fringe elements that are out to whip up emotions cynically.

The highest court in the land has made it abundantly clear that this is an issue on which politicking is inadmissible. Its merits cannot be determined on the strength of mobilised support, but only through legally sanctioned means. The two Chief Ministers, who have pursued a course of relative moderation in a potentially volatile situation, must now do more: they must take the lead in giving effect to what the Supreme Court has ordered as an immediate measure, and douse the flames in the border areas. Over the last few days, Theni in Tamil Nadu and Kumily in Kerala have witnessed violent protests and road blockades. In situations such as this, security personnel tend to give a lot of room to protesters, thus allowing public order to be compromised. Both State governments need to give clear instructions to their police forces to deal firmly with law-breakers. The process of finding a mutually acceptable solution cannot be hastened. The effort must not be aimed merely at balancing Kerala's apprehensions about the safety of the dam against Tamil Nadu's concerns over threats to its water rights. Issues of life and livelihood, which are seen to be at the heart of the dispute, need to be resolved to the reasonable satisfaction of both sides. But as long as rational principles guide the process of finding an enduring solution, there can be no cause for grievance on either side. After all, there can be no argument against science.

So, there you are. Get the testosterone levels back under control, stop using the grey matter between the ears again, make decisions based on rationality and facts , this will sort itself out and IMHO it is easily amenable to solution , technical or otherwise.

Sure, if this is another way of making sure that the Kerala Govt does not get to remove the encroached "resorts" etc and to legalize a criminal act that is de facto into de jure in the long run, the Kerala folks need to look at themselves in the mirror for what are they doing this. If it is safety, yes, it can be fully addressed. Matter ends there. Rest is all drama and political theater. Pull up your chairs and watch the fun.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 15 Dec 2011 13:10

Where are these 'encroached resorts'? Can you point them out on Google Earth please? There is high resolution imagery complete with terrain. Please! Go ahead!!

Of course, there is fear among us. But unlike our govt, I have taken steps to handle the risk by taking out insurance and also scoping out the areas I frequent for elevated escape routes.

That just leaves this nauseating bad taste left by the stinking lies and propaganda that is blatantly spread by TN. The justification I hear is that "TN is like this onlee.. They respond emotionally onlee". Now, I am thinking hard to figure where I used to hear that argument elsewhere!!

As our leaders, multi-party delegation of no less than 23 parties, have declared that they are stopping all agitations to make a conducive environment for discussion, it makes sense for us aam folk too to shut up, and bow to the TN ~~hegemony~~ emotional response. Still, let me list the things that really pisses me off right now.

1. Comparison with Kallanai and Godavari dam to claim that MP is safe.
2. Claim that Idukki can hold the water, disregarding the region between the dams.
3. Claim that region between the dams is not inhabited.
4. Claim that the agitation is to protect encroachments.
5. Claim for Idukki district.
6. Inflammatory lies in media by TN reporters (Expressbuzz news that 500 women are held hostage and sexually assaulted, and pilgrims being attacked)
7. Propaganda in TN that KL is refusing water, thus inciting the "emotional response"
8. Widespread attacks on Malayalis, KL registered vehicles and Malayali establishments in TN, while nothing is done to Tamils here in KL. Agitation, if any, happened only in Kumily, with no personal attacks.
9. Stopping of malayalam channels in cable TV in TN. (BTW, I would be glad if they beat up all those nadigars of ours)

Once again, it seems that the "emotional response" has won over the "nice guys", just like the other place that I had been thinking hard to figure where.

Since we got to keep up the title of "nice sensible guys" who got to accommodate the "emotional response", we better shut up and sit tight. At least that is what our leaders want us. Why should I give a damn!! It is projected that at worst case there will be a slow raising flood of upto 20ft here. I should worry more about the "big thing" hitting Silicon Valley, because that is where my dallahs come in!! I can pack up my stuff and move to another city anytime!!

habal · Post by **habal** » 15 Dec 2011 14:45

vina wrote: A sane editorial in Al-Hundi , that broadly reflects sanity and what I already posted here.
.

It's a chennai-based newspaper. It's mainly tamil editorial board.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 15 Dec 2011 15:23

^^I should admit that Al Hundi is way better than the "New TN Express", which would put Yawn and TFT to shame!!

habal · Post by **habal** » 15 Dec 2011 15:51

It's better on bipartisan news issues.

vina · Post by **vina** » 15 Dec 2011 17:01

habal wrote:It's a chennai-based newspaper. It's mainly tamil editorial board.

Right.. But the central govt CWC based out of Dilli is already "compromised" (I am sure that was packed with Tamil speakers 100%, not one Hindi/Punjabi/Bengali /whatever) , your own AG, the highest law officer of govt of Kerala says something (err.. wait. Dandapani.. I get it, isn't skanda/muruga originally a Tamil God , based out of Palani hills..oh MY GOD!.. no wonder he , along with his wife are already compromised!) .

But if you cant take the words of the Mount Road Maha Vishnu ..ie lately turned from the dignified The Hindu to the current Al Hundi, take it from the grad lady of South Bombay , the formerly dignfied Times of India publications, now degenerated into the TOI (let) or specifically, the E-Con-O-Mic Toilet.

Mullaiperiyar. Scientific Expertise will solve dispute

To resolve the squabble between the states of Kerala and Tamil Nadu over the Mullaperiyar dam, we need to deploy expertise, and not fire up emotions. At stake is a 116-year-old dam, built during colonial times, to control the flow of water from Kerala to Tamil Nadu.

Though the dam is located in Kerala, it is operated by the government of Tamil Nadu under a hoary arrangement that has remained unchanged after Independence and the creation of new states from the Madras presidency.

Kerala says that the dam is old and has offered to build a new one downstream with its own money. It also claims that Tamil Nadu is storing too much water in the reservoir and should release some to ease pressure on the barrier.

Otherwise, it fears, the dam will break, flooding several districts of Kerala. Tamil Nadu, mulishly, refuses to accept the offer. The squabbling has reached the Supreme Court, which has, sensibly, advised both sides to refrain from verbal spats till it comes to a decision. However, to resolve the issue, we need not judicial intervention, but common sense, scientific study and goodwill. Kerala's claim that the dam is unsafe needs scientific verification (oh my god. Kanspiracy.. Kamerade. they hate us. dont care for our lives, how shameful and indeed.. paki!) .

It is true that the dam developed a crack sometime ago, but that was repaired and it continues to function. An independent team of geologists, water experts and engineers should be able to verify if it is good enough to hold for another few decades even if minor quakes, the likes of which rock the region, recur. .. What again, they dont accept the IIT Delhi and IIT Roorkee reports we paid for!. Kaanspiracee! Pakiness an all the rest of it..

Second, there is no need for Tamil Nadu to churlishly want to hold more water than it now does in the reservoir. It should release some to take pressure off the dam. Three, an interstate commission should examine if Tamil Nadu is using its current water resources efficiently, before its claim for more water is taken up. If these measures are taken, there might well be no need for a new dam; the existing one could suffice, with some reinforcement. WhAAAAAAAT. Blasphemy. You are saying that you will keep the existing dam. We have been hollering, NEW DAM, NEW DAMN, DAMN IT, NEW DAMN or we will hold our breath and go blue!

Right now, both governments must stop their shrill protests and allow reason, rather than theatre, to guide policy. That will save everybody, including the Supreme Court, a lot of time, energy and cost, and lead to a sensible solution.

SENSIBLE.. Haven't we ALREADY given you a sensible solution.. NEW DAM, NEW DAM.....! Anything else is bowing to TN's "emotionalism" (err. who is being shrill and emotional here ?) and H&D and Pakiness..

.

And you want Reason , rather than theater to guide policy! Why would you do that, unless you don't care for the 35 lakh people will be washed away into the sea when the dam breaks! What use is your reason ? How Paki ! Shame Shame.

KASKEEE PAKAD. KEENCHE PAKAD .. Aisa . Aisa!
Baneyenge DAM, Banayenge DAM, Nayasa, Nayasa!

Hic. Peace. Also, along with the dam, we will make sequels of Dam 999 part 2, part 3 , part 4 etc.., along with lot more theater and vitiate the folks living in peace and quiet with borderline hate speech and baiting.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 15 Dec 2011 17:34

Your rant needs only brief answers.

1. We will accept any inspection by anyone if the observations are made fully public so that other experts can confirm it. We are not going to accept any "trust me, it is safe" from anyone, including SC. I would rephrase "TN's claim that the dam is safe needs scientific verification." I would add that it should be convincing verification. As it is, the dam looks like CRAP!

2. New Dam is the only solution, as long as TN is stubbornly holding to the position of dam is safe for 152ft water. Any other solution needs major contribution/change of policy from TN.

vina · Post by **vina** » 15 Dec 2011 18:06

Dileep wrote:Your rant needs only brief answers.

1. We will accept any inspection by anyone if the observations are made fully public so that other experts can confirm it. We are not going to accept any "trust me, it is safe" from anyone, including SC. I would rephrase "TN's claim that the dam is safe needs scientific verification." I would add that it should be convincing verification. As it is, the dam looks like CRAP!

2. New Dam is the only solution, as long as TN is stubbornly holding to the position of dam is safe for 152ft water. Any other solution needs major contribution/change of policy from TN.

Dude. Is this even an issue to get worked up about ?

1) The proceedings will be in open court. The report and the "evidence" / recommendations and the study will be as per normal court available to all and sundry. Maybe not on the Internet , but all that will be available as per public record of the court and is open to anyone who asks for it! This is not going to be held in camera with secret evidence. Both sets of lawyers will have access to all evidence, findings and background info and data as is normal in ANY case! Sure, your lawyers can give copies to any person who wants to take a second look at and I dare say even put the entire thing up on the internet ! Who cares, it will be all public info anyways.

2) Whether the dam is safe, and if yes, what can be the water level that can be stored safely etc is a matter still under consideration! If the court decides only 120 ft is safe, TN will have to abide by it. If the court says the dam is unsafe , demolish it or dont store any water in it, TN will have to comply! If it concludes the dam is fully safe at 152 ft and says ok, you can raise the water to that level, it will do so! So I really dont understand what is there to get worked up over.

All I can conclude is that you have already decided 1) The dam is unsafe , even if experts with publicly disclosed info and backed by science decide it is perfectly safe and 2) The court has thrown out Kerala's case in totality and has allowed TN to raise the level to 152 ft, even in case, the committee decides that it is not safe to do so!

It is such make believe and dreamed up scenarios and the attendant scare mongering that is driving you and otherwise sensible and sane folks into a tizzy. The courts by any measure are neither dumb nor evil and uncaring about the lives and well being about the citizens of this country.

So give it a rest and like I said, grab a nice tall beer and some popcorn and enjoy the theater played out by the politcos.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Dec 2011 22:59

IMHO, courts should not decide what is safe. There should proper scientific analysis, and data from it could be used by courts to decide. But nature will not wait for court nor people to do these studies and judgement. If the time comes, it comes. Warning shots are already visible on the dam.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 15 Dec 2011 23:18

The dispute as perceived by the TN side is clearly not about water, it is about possession of the high land. Everything else is theatrics and dramatized emotional outbursts hidden behind legalism and water rights, where both have so far not been questioned from KL side.

The hill country will be encroached anyways, the real dispute is about who gets to get it and keep it. That is the real whine from TN side. Water is just the excuse. That is what I wanted to bring out in the open with land exchange ideas.

Added:

There is a whole lot of gap between individual KL businessmen setting shop in TN under TN rules and individuals from KL buying up land in now fertile Cumbum valley as has been alleged, versus claiming a whole district as TN's based on linguistic differences. The two are not the same.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 16 Dec 2011 02:16

Bade,

There is undoubtedly a lot of angst about it. As long as TN population thinks it is assured water the angst is relatively neutral. When Kerala appears to be moving against water supply the angst can come out into the open. There is a wish that TN had been less magnanimous and pushed the division on language basis issue to its logical conclusion. It didn't and many of these complex issue continue to rattle the states.

This is not dissimilar to what happens in Belgaum or Hosakote where states administer mixed population territories.
---------------------------------------

Dileep it is obvious you have something against TN Bureaucrats. Mangaladevi situation is complex. Atleast part of the temple complex lies in TN. I've stood on the ridge in front of the temple and the crown is about 200 feet to the south and atleast 6 feet higher than Temple. And I can tell you that every drop of rain that fall on the temple drains into TN. Still map indicates Temple itself belongs to Kerala as does the reserve forest that extends down the ridge to the West. There was a sign 25 years ago indicating this. No google earth required. So much for your drainage basin idea. The approach I took back then was through the Meghmalai/Shivagiri area where most streams flow into Kerala and onward to Mullaperiyar. TN's issue is solely with the maintenance of the temple which was in shocking disrepair even back then.
-----------------------------------------------------
Saik,

Courts are not stupid. The court has numerous highly skilled people guiding it. As well as Kerala & TN representatives. Still safety is about perception too and Government must address it. My personal opinion is that Kerala should argue on the basis of dangerous design flaws rather than condition of the dam. Much more likely to get a new dam then.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Dec 2011 02:50

Courts are not stupid.

did I say that? But however, because you bought this into picture, I would say courts can become stupid if they take time to give out a decision in time.

My words would only make sense, when the dam fails. So, till then I would sound stupid, and the courts would sound like people with highest IQ in the world.

Whether it is design fault or dam condition, the fact remains it needs attention. That argument can't be stupid.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 16 Dec 2011 03:15

SaiK wrote:Whether it is design fault or dam condition, the fact remains it needs attention. That argument can't be stupid.

I'm talking WRT a legal approach. Condition of anything is always an iffy subject legally. Owners says one thing, neigbhor says another, engineer thinks something else, etc. Hard to show imminent failure. Legally everything is on it way to failure. Even that bridge you walk on could collapse tomorrow as many have done. Legally the only thing determined is how much life remains. Anything more that 15 years and the court will be satisfied.

Design flaws OTOH are easy to legally argue. A bridge missing a column would be replaced immedietely. A building that is not designed water proof would be condemned on the spot.

So yes, there is a difference.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 16 Dec 2011 07:20

No water dispute in India has ever been resolved by court verdict. Only discussion between the parties would help.

In the current case, if the court says build a new dam, or reduce the level, there is going to be severe agitation in TN. After all, they have the license to "respond emotionally".

If the court says dam is safe and raise the level, we are not going to agree, but since we don't have the license to "respond emotionally", and we have the tendency to give up easily, most of us would give up, except the people who live below and are direly threatened by the dam.

We should also learn to "respond emotionally" I guess.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 16 Dec 2011 07:23

Theo, do you know how exactly is the border demarcated in the uninhabited hilly areas? I have read that it is by the watershed line. Do you agree/disagree/don't know?

I haven't been to those places myself, except visiting Thekkady once and crossing over to Theni onward to Kodai. I have to use Google Earth.

vina · Post by **vina** » 16 Dec 2011 09:29

Dileep wrote:No water dispute in India has ever been resolved by court verdict. Only discussion between the parties would help.

In the current case, if the court says build a new dam, or reduce the level, there is going to be severe agitation in TN. After all, they have the license to "respond emotionally".

The only way there will be an agitation of ANY sort in TN is if the court says that you don't have the right to the water. That is impossible, because the court is not looking into that at all!

If the court says, reduce the water level, TN will have to look at engineering means , like building a new tunnel, using the existing tunnel and hence 104ft of water , more storage in the TN side,larger penstocks, whatever.

If the court says dam is safe and raise the level, we are not going to agree

Nice! So what you REALLY want is a rubber stamp kangaroo court!. Unfortunately, that doesn't exist here.

We should also learn to "respond emotionally" I guess.

Ok. The side which brought "emotion" and "melodrama" and political mobilization to this is KL. And here we have you claiming TN is responding "emotionally". Their actions have been pretty sober far and even the assembly resolution that was passed was on TN's Water Rights and not about the dam at all, other than the repairs that were made and strengthening done.

And in addition the Dam 999 film was what $10m in the making according to the producer Sohan Roy ? Why at current exchange rates that is very similar to the Rs 500 crore warchest that someone claimed that TN has to fight this out!

Harish Salve the counsel of Kerala stated in the court yesterday that "TN's concern is that if the dam is damaged it will have no water, while for me, if the dam is damaged, 35 lakh people will be washed away

" .

So who were the "vandals" who indulged in minor vandalism in the dam leading TN to ask for CISF ? RAA agints from TN out to defame the good dhoti wearing lumpens mobilized by the Kerala politicos I suppose ?

vina · Post by **vina** » 16 Dec 2011 10:03

Bade wrote:There is a whole lot of gap between individual KL businessmen setting shop in TN under TN rules and individuals from KL buying up land in now fertile Cumbum valley as has been alleged, versus claiming a whole district as TN's based on linguistic differences. The two are not the same.

Gotta agree Bade Mian. This entire "claiming" this or that based on linguistics /ethnic whatever is ridiculous. None of the states in India are explicitly ethnically homogeneous states , when even within the states constituted (say for eg TN) it is not homogeneous internally with myriad castes,communities, religions, linguistic minorities, dialects, districts this , that, what have you.

So yeah, when my folks some 300/400 years ago/ whenever moved out of Brahmadesham in Thanjavur dist due to a disastrous famine (my grandpa took me there as a kid, showed me the old temple and a plot near the temple with a ruined collapsed house , which he said was his ancestral inheritance) and similar stories by all the folks in Palghat/Shoranur/Kuzhalmannam/Allepey/Kollam/Ernakulam/Trivandrum , or the Mandya /Melkote and folks in the Eight Villages in KA fleeing the Vaishnavite prosecution by the Chola kings, it doesn't mean they didn't integrate, they did and became more native than the natives.

Similarly, most of the Mallus I knew of in Chennai,Madurai , Coimbatore etc are like the Vaiko like Telugus of TN and that is the way it should be .

This kind of mixing and intergration is going to accelerate and increase greatly with the increased mobility of the people due to jobs, education, developed transport etc (you have blaring adverts of "Backwaters, Munnar , Thekkadi , triangle tours" done in two days and a few hundred rupees. 100 years ago, to do that triangle would have taken you a month and an arm and leg in costs!). So this old compartmentalized rigid state thing is out dated. As far as I can see, the state and district business is more for admin convenience etc. OK, states tomorrow are like the districts of today. Note.. Districts a few decades ago were like the states of today ..( Err. You are from Tirunelveli, the other from Arcot.. Marry.. What! Marry someone from Arcot.. barbaric place!

)

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 16 Dec 2011 10:03

Dileep wrote:Theo, do you know how exactly is the border demarcated in the uninhabited hilly areas? I have read that it is by the watershed line. Do you agree/disagree/don't know?

I haven't been to those places myself, except visiting Thekkady once and crossing over to Theni onward to Kodai. I have to use Google Earth.

I don't know about all of it. but the area between Tenkasi and Kumily was from a treaty between Madura and Travancore. Boundary was both geographical and drainage. Large chunks went one way or another based on someone who had an estate there. The survey was done by British and notified by them. This formed the boundary of Thekkady and that boundary has been followed since. Back then I had the fortune/misfortune of having to trek through that country as part of the Duke of Ellington award scheme, and is the reason I'm relatively familiar with the terrain. We were stuck on to a creek in TN and told to follow till we crossed the border and into the Mullaperiyar area. Back then this area was completely uncontrolled and we camped overnight about 500 feet from the Kannagi temple which was completely deserted! 3 day hike.

Even Kodai should have been with Kerala but the same British signed another treaty with I think Pallakad and annexed it to Madura and hence to TN.

Kumban valley border too is from a treaty during the British era but numerous adjustments were made in 1956. a surprising amount of land was exchanged. Shencottah for instance was administered by Travancore back then but was transfered to TN for land elsewhere. That was how the access to Achenkovil and the head waters of the Achenkovil Aaru, now in TN were lost.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 16 Dec 2011 10:52

vina wrote:
Dileep wrote:No water dispute in India has ever been resolved by court verdict. Only discussion between the parties would help.

In the current case, if the court says build a new dam, or reduce the level, there is going to be severe agitation in TN. After all, they have the license to "respond emotionally".
The only way there will be an agitation of ANY sort in TN is if the court says that you don't have the right to the water. That is impossible, because the court is not looking into that at all!

you mentioned that your family moved out of TN some 300 years ago. That does show!! Sure!! It would be like we say ഒരു ചൊക്ലിപ്പട്ടി പോലും കുരയ്ക്കില്ല (not even a stray dog will bark). All biss and tranquil onlee.

If the court says, reduce the water level, TN will have to look at engineering means , like building a new tunnel, using the existing tunnel and hence 104ft of water , more storage in the TN side,larger penstocks, whatever.

TN will first have to organize all the fire tenders they can get, because Theni and Madurai districts are going to BURN!!

SC knows this, hence part of our fear.

Ok. The side which brought "emotion" and "melodrama" and political mobilization to this is KL. And here we have you claiming TN is responding "emotionally". Their actions have been pretty sober far and even the assembly resolution that was passed was on TN's Water Rights and not about the dam at all, other than the repairs that were made and strengthening done.

OMG!! If you call the current response sober, I have no wish to see the "emotional" response. thaanga mudiyaathu saar!!

So who were the "vandals" who indulged in minor vandalism in the dam leading TN to ask for CISF ? RAA agints from TN out to defame the good dhoti wearing lumpens mobilized by the Kerala politicos I suppose ?

What vandals? Do you know what really happened there? Of course, what else could you expect from a place that holds 500 women as hostages and rapes them, and attack and burn pilgrims!! Of course they went to dismantle the dam!!

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 16 Dec 2011 10:57

Theo, I am talking specifically about the border east of the catchment of Mullayar and Periyar. This region is clearly uninhabited and inaccessible. So, a border could only be defined based on geography. What I read is that the border there is defined based on watershed line. It does make sense.

Exchange of land, or moving borders can happen only at inhabited places to protect ownership interests. I don't see any reason for such deviations in the area. There was, and still is no land ownership there. It is all jungle.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 16 Dec 2011 15:10

Finally got a pic based on which hysteria saying 50 lac people will die if the dam bursts. Again I would raise Dam safety should be considered, but mass hysteria that these areas will be flooded overnight and raising frenzy is not correct

Image is from http://www.prokerala.com/kerala/maps/mullaperiyar-map.htm

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 16 Dec 2011 15:55

Here is my assessment of threat (re-posted)

Statements in KL like "Five districts washed away" "50ft water at Kochi" etc are grossly inflated.

The following are the realities.

1. The dam is really weak. It is visible. It is also proven by the fact that TN blocks/objects to every attempt of any inspection. If everything was hunky dory, they could have just invited the media and shown.

2. When it breaks, and if Idukki system holds the flow, around 15,000 people will be directly displaced, hundreds, if not thousands will be killed. One town will be washed away, along with a major highway connecting central travancore to TN.

3. If Cheruthoni dam of the Idukki system breaks, that will also break three other dams downstream it, lay waste the entire eastern region of Ernakulam district and flood Kochi by a few feet. It will also take out the bridges linking Kochi to the north.

4. If Kulamavu dam of Idukki system breaks, towns of Thodupuzha, Muvattupuzha and the southeastern parts of Ernakulam district will be flooded. Low lying southern parts of Kochi, will be lightly flooded

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 17 Dec 2011 22:02

For those who read Tamil, thuglak has started a series on this issue.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Dec 2011 06:22

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/article2714503.ece
don't click this link if you play politics or politically motivated..

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 19 Dec 2011 16:22

Somebody had connected this dam issue to the Ayyappa devotees route.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/tamil-nadu/ ... ess-156665

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tam ... epage=true

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... lice-force

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 19 Dec 2011 18:09

^^Those are old news.

On Dec 8-9, there was a hartal in the district, and as usual with hartals, there was traffic blockade in Kumily. Ayyappa devotees were generally allowed to pass, but there was traffic blockades at several places all over the highway. I believe it is exaggeration that the devotees were beat up. It was a Hartal, and I would venture that the vehicles got the traditional Kerala Hartal treatment onlee.

'pandi' is a normal slang used to refer to a Tamil person, originating from Pandya Land. It is not derogatory or anything. It is like terms like "Mexican" or "Philipino". It is not exactly PC to call someone that way, but it is of normal use in border areas as part of normal conversation. The reciprocal term is "malayalathaan".

Now, anything and everything is viewed as conspiracy/anti-tamil. For example, the police had introduced an e-queue system, where you can register with a photo and ID at the web site, and get a shorter queue. This was called as discrimination.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 19 Dec 2011 20:15

Folks.. would have to visit the socialist republic on Wednesday, and the current plan is to drive down via NH7 (Walayar border post is the crossing point). My vehicle is KA registration. Folks from the border districts in TN (CBE mainly), what are the chances of getting stoned?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Dec 2011 20:48

101% or 0%. Do it before 6am. Just think about kerala strikes, where even a pregnant lady would be spared to be stoned! I would consider alternate routes if any. I would consider a more business route from pollachi!

well talking about middle eastern culture, where stoning is prevalent.. we are no where far from that considering this fear! very little difference between allah and yindoo culture for both getting stoned

, and stoning others.

.

/sorry could not kan-troll this gelf syndrome.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 19 Dec 2011 22:36

i went all the up to annaikattai this weekend. didn't see anything there. didn't see anything in north and west c'tore in general. i did see a ''rally'' in satthy though. about 20-25 people bang in front of the bus station with black -white-black flags. reading off wriitten text and using words like prachodanai, piri etc.. basically KL is not heeding SC. threat to india and india unity etc. the next guy who spoke was even more excited. but other than these 20-25 guys plus a couple of cops nobody else in an otherwise busy place seemed to care.

but a few people told me that KL buses were not ingressing. so the TN were full. it did feel that way too. the buses were very full, even beyond the usual school/work hour. ended up waiting more than a hour before we finally got into a bus that we could barely get into. (this was at village on the out skirst of c'tore.

every i saw, i saw vaiko posters. some with him smiling others him wagging a finger. btw somewhere in that area there is a AP Abul Kalam auto stand. otherwise it is mostly vijayakanth auto stands.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Dec 2011 02:39

kalam sahib says, all national installations can come under mil protection. now, that in itself is a shame for both TN and KL people, who are relatively more educated than say bihar or arunachal.

people have to realize that and wake up that national integration is not what the problem is by being mature citizens.. provoking violence must be shunned at all cost, and those people whether for or against must be jailed for 10 years rigorous if they disrupt peace or destroy things on protest. of course only peaceful protest can be allowed like hazare types.

people have no right to destruct public property, or disrupt peace. This is worse than pakistani behavior, in the current century.

it is a shame! and who says one has to got be madrassa educated to destroy or be a paki? all it takes is one madras call to instigate violence. The CMs should be made responsible, and stripped off governance as well.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 20 Dec 2011 15:39

SaiK wrote:101% or 0%. Do it before 6am. Just think about kerala strikes, where even a pregnant lady would be spared to be stoned! I would consider alternate routes if any. I would consider a more business route from pollachi!

Skipped this route. Reports say that our man VaiKo and buddies plan to block every single entry point to Kerala from Tamil Nadu. So Walayar, Govindapuram, Pollachi, Gudallur are all out. My trip re-routed through Mysore->Gundlupet -> Muthanga -> Kalpatta->Nilambur.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 20 Dec 2011 15:50

SaiK wrote:people have no right to destruct public property, or disrupt peace. This is worse than pakistani behavior, in the current century.

Agreed. Some inputs I got was that:-
1. There have been random stone throwing at buses, in Kerala. The police also would be clue less, as it is mostly bike riding gangs who just come from no where throw stones and vanish.
2. TNSRTC have decided to cancel all trips, leading to Kerala. Students in CBE etc. have been asked to march back home today. There were reports that KSRTC buses had their glasses broken at "Chavadi" near CBE.
3. Old pal VaiKo is planning to block all entry points to Kerala tomorrow.
4. Kerala CM have appealed to Tamils explaining the Kerala position (we give you water, but we need a better dam). Advertisements in local language and English in all English and vernacular dailies in TN.
5. The commie hooligan gang (mainly SFI, DYFI,CITU brigade of Kerala) is totally on "radio silence" mode. Their megalomaniac mafiosi leaders from Kannur etc. all our keeping mum. Enthusiasm to abuse judges or threaten police men is not seen when it comes to folks from Tamil Nadu who can retailate much better

.