India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

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Sanjay M
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by Sanjay M »

RayC wrote:
John Snow wrote:Here it is ramana garu
Image
Nice map.

And this is why an Indian deployment should stay out of the South, and stick to the Tajik portions, buttressing Tajik forces in creating a perimeter that borders the Pashtun areas.

Let the Americans/NATO fight in the Pashtun southern areas, and face a hammering from Pashtuns flitting back and forth across the Pak border.
This will put US ties with Pakistan to the test, while also setting the stage for unified Pashtun warfighting that will force Pak to choose between the Pashtuns and the US.

Btw, KSA could never fight in Afghanistan, just as they don't have the ability to fight anywhere. With the falling oil prices, I'll be impressed if they can avoid unrest at home.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by kasthuri »

From Stratfor:

Intelligence Guidance: Week of Jan. 25, 2009
1. Obama and Russia: U.S. President Barack Obama has been in office for essentially a week, and aside from some really interesting Obamemorabilia getting sold, not much has changed. Not that we were really expecting much. Obama himself is working to play down the messianic properties that others have credited him with. In the second week of his presidency, we expect two topics to get most of the attention. First, Obama has made it clear he wants to turn up the pressure on Pakistan to do more in the Afghan war. To do this, his team is attempting to forge a supplementary supply route to NATO forces in Afghanistan that does not require relying on Pakistan. The theory is that this will allow a U.S.-Indian tag team to force Pakistan to finally pursue militant Islamists striking Afghanistan from Pakistani territory. But all of those supplementary routes transit Central Asia, a region where Russia is king. Obama is going to have to have a talk — or a showdown — with the Russians. Soon. And next week there is a perfect opportunity. Jan. 26 is the first Russia-NATO Council meeting since the August 2008 Russia-Georgia war — though the U.S. is sending representatives below principal level (while the Russians want to meet at the principal level).
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by kasthuri »

BTW, can anyone let me know what a tag-team is? Thanks.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by Anujan »

kasthuri wrote:BTW, can anyone let me know what a tag-team is? Thanks.
It is borrowed from wrestling. A tag-team is a team of two wrestlers who wrestle as a team. In competitions where only one opponent is allowed, they take turns as each one tires.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by Sanjay M »

A variation of this would be the GoodCop-BadCop approach, whereby one party (eg. USA) tries to talk in a moderate voice like a Good Cop, while the other party (eg. India) would use tougher pressure like a Bad Cop. Both parties would be coordinating, of course.

We can tighten the sluicegates on the Baglihar Dam again.

That's another reason why Kashmir should not be brought under Holbrooke's purview.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by RajeshA »

Russia stops US on road to Afghanistan by M.K. Bhadrakumar: AsiaTimes

Russia stops US on road to Afghanistan
By M K Bhadrakumar

Precise, quick, deadly - the skills of a soldier are modest. But then, US Central Command chief General David Petraeus is more than a soldier. The world is getting used to him as somewhere more than halfway down the road to becoming a statesman. Sure, there may be warfare's seduction over him still, but he is expected to be aware of the political realities of the two wars he conducts, in Iraq and Afghanistan.

That is why he tripped last Tuesday when he said while on a visit to Pakistan that the American military had secured agreements to move supplies to Afghanistan from the north, easing the heavy reliance on the transit route through Pakistan. "There have been agreements reached, and there are transit lines now and transit agreements for commercial goods and services in particular that include several countries in the Central Asian states and Russia," Petraeus said.

He was needlessly precise - like a soldier. Maybe he needed to impress on the tough Pakistani generals that they wouldn't hold the US forces in Afghanistan by their jugular veins for long. Or, he felt simply exasperated about the doublespeak of Janus-faced southwest Asian generals.

The shocking intelligence assessment shared by Moscow reveals that almost half of the US supplies passing through Pakistan is pilfered by motley groups of Taliban militants, petty traders and plain thieves. The US Army is getting burgled in broad daylight and can't do much about it. Almost 80% of all supplies for Afghanistan pass through Pakistan. The Peshawar bazaar is doing a roaring business hawking stolen US military ware, as in the 1980s during the Afghan jihad against the Soviet Union. This volume of business will register a quantum jump following the doubling of the US troop level in Afghanistan to 60,000. Wars are essentially tragedies, but can be comical, too.

Moscow disclaims transit route
At any rate, within a day of Petraeus' remark, Moscow corrected him. Deputy Foreign Minister Alexei Maslov told Itar-Tass, “No official documents were submitted to Russia's permanent mission in NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] certifying that Russia had authorized the United States and NATO to transport military supplies across the country."

A day later, Russia's ambassador to NATO, Dmitry Rogozin, added from Brussels, "We know nothing of Russia's alleged agreement of military transit of Americans or NATO at large. There had been suggestions of the sort, but they were not formalized." And, with a touch of irony, Rogozin insisted Russia wanted the military alliance to succeed in Afghanistan.

"I can responsibly say that in the event of NATO's defeat in Afghanistan, fundamentalists who are inspired by this victory will set their eyes on the north. First they will hit Tajikistan, then they will try to break into Uzbekistan ... If things turn out badly, in about 10 years, our boys will have to fight well-armed and well-organized Islamists somewhere in Kazakhstan," the popular Moscow-politician turned diplomat added.

Russian experts have let it be known that Moscow views with disquiet the US's recent overtures to Central Asian countries regarding bilateral transit treaties with them which exclude Russia. Agreements have been reached with Georgia, Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan. Moscow feels the US is pressing ahead with a new Caspian transit route which involves the dispatch of shipments via Georgia to Azerbaijan and thereon to the Kazakh harbor of Aktau and across the Uzbek territory to Amu Darya and northern Afghanistan.

Russian experts estimate that the proposed Caspian transit route could eventually become an energy transportation route in reverse direction, which would mean a strategic setback for Russia in the decade-long struggle for the region's hydrocarbon reserves.

Russia presses for role in Kabul
Indeed, Uzbekistan is the key Central Asian country in the great game over the northern transit route to Afghanistan. Thus, during Russian President Dmitry Medvedev's visit to Tashkent last week, Afghanistan figured as a key topic. Medvedev characterized Russian-Uzbek relations as a "strategic partnership and alliance" and said that on matters relating to Afghanistan, Moscow's cooperation with Tashkent assumed an "exceptional importance".
He said he and Uzbek President Islam Karimov agreed that there could be no "unilateral solution" to the Afghan problem and "nothing can be resolved without taking into account the collective opinion of states which have an interest in the resolution of the situation".

Most significantly, Medvedev underlined Russia had no objections about US President Barack Obama's idea of linking the Afghanistan and Pakistan problems, but for an entirely different reason, as "it is not possible to examine the establishment and development of a modern political system in Afghanistan in isolation from the context of normalizing relations between Afghanistan and Pakistan in their border regions, setting up the appropriate international mechanisms and so on".

Moscow rarely touches on the sensitive Durand Line question, that is, the controversial line that separates Afghanistan and Pakistan. Medvedev underscored that Russia remained an interested party, as there was a "need to ensure that these issues are resolved on a collective basis".

Second, Medvedev made it clear Moscow would resist US attempts to expand its military and political presence in the Central Asian and Caspian regions. He asserted, "This is a key region, a region in which diverse processes are taking place and in which Russia has crucially important work to do to coordinate our positions with our colleagues and help to find common solutions to the most complex problems."

Plainly put, Moscow will not allow a replay of the US's tactic after September 11, 2002, when it sought a military presence in Central Asia as a temporary measure and then coolly proceeded to put it on a long-term footing.

Karzai reaches out to Moscow
Interestingly, Medvedev's remarks coincide with reports that Washington is cutting Afghan President Hamid Karzai adrift and is planning to install a new "dream team" in Kabul.

Medvedev had written to Karzai offering military aid. Karzai apparently accepted the Russian offer, ignoring the US objection that in terms of secret US-Afghan agreements, Kabul needed Washington's prior consent for such dealings with third countries.

A statement from the Kremlin last Monday said Russia was "ready to provide broad assistance for an independent and democratic country [Afghanistan] that lives in a peaceful atmosphere with its neighbors. Cooperation in the defense sector ... will be effective for establishing peace in the region". It makes sense for Kabul to make military procurements from Russia since the Afghan armed forces use Soviet weaponry. But Washington doesn't want a Russian "presence" in Kabul.

Quite obviously, Moscow and Kabul have challenged the US's secret veto power over Afghanistan's external relations. Last Friday, Russian and Afghan diplomats met in Moscow and "pledged to continue developing Russian-Afghan cooperation in politics, trade and economics as well as in the humanitarian sphere". Significantly, they also "noted the importance of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization [SCO]" that is dominated by Russia and China.

SCO seeks Afghan role
Washington cannot openly censure Karzai from edging close to Russia (and China) since Afghanistan is notionally a sovereign country. Meanwhile, Moscow is intervening in Kabul's assertion of independence. Moscow has stepped up its efforts to hold an international conference on Afghanistan under the aegis of the SCO. The US doesn't want Karzai to legitimize a SCO role in the Afghan problem. Now a flashpoint arises.

A meeting of deputy foreign ministers from the SCO member countries (China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan) met in Moscow on January 14. The Russian Foreign Ministry subsequently announced that a conference would take place in late March. The Russian initiative received a big boost with Iran and India's decision to participate in the conference.

New Delhi has welcomed an enhanced role for itself as a SCO observer and seeks "greater participation" in the organization's activities. In particular, New Delhi has "expressed interest in participating in the activities" of the SCO contact group on Afghanistan.

The big question is whether Karzai will seize these regional trends and respond to the SCO overture, which will enable Kabul to get out of Washington's stranglehold? To be sure, Washington is racing against time in bringing about a "regime change" in Kabul.

The point is, more and more countries in the region are finding it difficult to accept the US monopoly on conflict-resolution in Afghanistan. Washington will be hard-pressed to dissociate from the forthcoming SCO conference in March and, ideally, would have wished that Karzai also stayed away, despite it being a full-fledged regional initiative that includes all of Afghanistan's neighbors.

The SCO is sure to list Afghanistan as a major agenda item at its annual summit meeting scheduled to be held in August in Yekaterinburg, Russia. It seems Washington cannot stop the SCO in its tracks at this stage, except by genuinely broad-basing the search for an Afghan settlement and allowing regional powers with legitimate interests to fully participate.

The current US thinking, on the other hand, is to strike "grand bargains" with regional powers bilaterally and to keep them apart from collectively coordinating with each other on the basis of shared concerns. But the regional powers see through the US game plan for what it is - a smart move of divide-and-rule.

Moscow spurns selective engagement
No doubt, these diplomatic maneuverings also reveal the trust deficit in Russian-American relations. Moscow voices optimism that Obama will constructively address the problems that have accumulated in the US-Russia relationship. But Russia figured neither in Obama's inaugural address nor in the foreign policy document spelling out his agenda.

Last Tuesday, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov summed up Moscow's minimal expectations: "I hope the controversial problems in our relations, such as missile defense, the expediency of NATO expansion ... will be resolved on the basis of pragmatism, without the ideological assessment the outgoing administration had ... We have noticed that ... Obama was willing to take a break on the issue of missile defense ... and to evaluate its effectiveness and cost efficiency."

But Russia is not among the new US administration's priorities. Besides, as the influential newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta noted last week, "A considerable number of [US] congressmen from both parties believe Russia needs a good talking-to." The current Russian priority will be to organize an early meeting between Lavrov and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, and until such a meeting takes place, matters are on hold - including the vexed issue of the transit route for Afghanistan.

Thus, while talking to the media in Tashkent, Medvedev agreed in principle to grant permission to the US to use a transit route to Afghanistan via Russian territory, but at once qualified it saying, "This cooperation should be full-fledged and on an equal basis." He reminded Obama that the "surge" strategy in Afghanistan might not work. "We hope the new administration will be more successful than its predecessor on the issues surrounding Afghanistan," Medvedev said.

Evidently, Petraeus overlooked that the US's needless obduracy to keep the Hindu Kush as its exclusive geopolitical turf right in the middle of Asia has become a contentious issue. No matter the fine rhetoric, the Obama administration will find it difficult to sustain the myth that the Afghan war is all about fighting al-Qaeda and the Taliban to the finish.

Ambassador M K Bhadrakumar was a career diplomat in the Indian Foreign Service. His assignments included the Soviet Union, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Germany, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Kuwait and Turkey.
I am skeptical of a Chinese role in Afghanistan. However if SCO (minus China) can help secure Northern Afghanistan against encroachment through Taliban (Pakistan's proxies), that would go a long way in securing India's national interests in making the Afghanistan War into a Pushtun War of Independence, independence from both the Western forces and Pakistan.

The formal division of Afghanistan should be undertaken only after the Durand Line ceases to exist, as the Pushtuns, either in their Taliban format or otherwise, throw out the Pakistani troops from all Pushtun areas in Pakistan. Until that time, Afghanistan needs to be considered as one country, even as the Northern Afghanistan areas, are given Indo-Russo-Iranian protection. This unity of Afghanistan allows the Afghan rulers to question the sanctity of Durand Line and Pakistan rule in its Pushtun areas. This legitimacy issue should be kept alive, lest Pakistan comes up with some solution integrating the Afghanistan Pushtun areas into Pakistan as well.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by Kati »

120k IA personnel???? How are they going to get supplied? Through Pakiland?
A crazy dream!!!!!
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by NRao »

Kati wrote:120k IA personnel???? How are they going to get supplied? Through Pakiland?
A crazy dream!!!!!
Sir,

Perhaps you will find the answer in one of 17 pages that have been posted?
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by kasthuri »

Regarding Bhadrakumar's article above, I don't know if US has vested interest (in CAR) other than rooting out Al-Qaeda/Taliban. But, of late Russia seems to be pitching for a role in Afghanistan for sure. I remember Medvedev saying recently that, if the solders stay in a different country for long, they develop more of occupational characteristics. So, it seems Russia does not want the US in its backyard for a long time. If US is wary of SCO, they may even partner India into the alliance. But I guess it might be better for India to partner with SCO than with the US.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by NRao »

I don't know if US has vested interest (in CAR) other than rooting out Al-Qaeda/Taliban
:
Russian experts estimate that the proposed Caspian transit route could eventually become an energy transportation route in reverse direction, which would mean a strategic setback for Russia in the decade-long struggle for the region's hydrocarbon reserves.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by kasthuri »

NRao wrote:
I don't know if US has vested interest (in CAR) other than rooting out Al-Qaeda/Taliban
:
Russian experts estimate that the proposed Caspian transit route could eventually become an energy transportation route in reverse direction, which would mean a strategic setback for Russia in the decade-long struggle for the region's hydrocarbon reserves.
Yeah, I understood that Bhadrakumar claims that. In one of his previous article too, he says the US is in Afghanistan only for securing the energy. But, I believe US considers the terrorist threat more than the energy idea. I think US had a larger stake in Iraq than in CAR. Iraq would have been an easier bargain than CAR with belligerent Russia.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by NRao »

But, I believe US considers the terrorist threat more than the energy idea.
They have been two independent topics. The US has a old game plan that is independent of the Taliban and has considered multiple routes to take the "energy" out of CAR. The Taliban have also been offered a seat at the table.

The US' anger with the Taliban is the latter's protection under which the AQ thrived and the resulting unwillingness on the part of the Taliban to "hand over" AQ operatives specially early in the ball game.

Iraq is a case study for future Harvard graduates - how not to do certain things. But, the two (Iraq and CAR) are mutually exclusive.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by ramana »

Why dont you guys try to discern what are US interests in CA and how Afghanistan plays into that?
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by RajeshA »

The shocking intelligence assessment shared by Moscow reveals that almost half of the US supplies passing through Pakistan is pilfered by motley groups of Taliban militants, petty traders and plain thieves. The US Army is getting burgled in broad daylight and can't do much about it. Almost 80% of all supplies for Afghanistan pass through Pakistan. The Peshawar bazaar is doing a roaring business hawking stolen US military ware, as in the 1980s during the Afghan jihad against the Soviet Union. This volume of business will register a quantum jump following the doubling of the US troop level in Afghanistan to 60,000. Wars are essentially tragedies, but can be comical, too.
If the rate of pilfering is so high, as is being claimed here, then one does wonder, whether it is by design, and not just by Pakistanis but by Americans themselves.

Are the Pakistanis willingly allowing their proxies or even the TTP to pilfer all these supplies? It would make sense for Pakistan to enable their proxies access to these supplies, without having to finance these supplies themselves. Considering how the Pakistani forces are also turning a blind-eye to Fazlullah in Swat, and willing to befriend Baitullah Mehsud from time to time, it is quite possible that TTP is pilfering these items under the very eyes of the TSPA.

The second question is whether Americans are allowing their weaponry and other supplies to be pilfered by the Taliban. In case some nutcase in American policy-making has come up with some brilliant ideas to make a move in the Great Game in which the Taliban are strengthened, either to take down Pakistan in the end, or to take down India, after Pakistan has been taken down, or to act as an American arm to destabilize Central Asia, or possibly China, then I would be really really impressed by the perfidy of the Americans themselves.

If one were to think about it, all the arms that were left over from the wars in the 80s, were enough to destabilize Pakistan, some regions of Central Asia, and give a shot in the arm for Jihadi terrorism world-wide. A second time proliferation of all these arms would enable a second cycle of Jihad.

Now Jihad as such is not really the bane of Western Civilization. The War on Terror may have cost trillions, put it has made a lot of people rich, and allowed new industries to rise, allowed a quantum jump in security-related technology. The only thing that really upsets the Western power-brokers is when the Jihadists gets access to nuclear weapons or even other ABC weapons, or are able to do damage on the scale of 9/11. But other than that, a bomb here and there to scare the shit out of their populations, is not the end of the world for these arms-merchants. All that is just a boost to their businesses.

So should Jihad prosper in Central Asia, and strike places like India, Russia, China or even Shia Iran, why would the American give a damn, long after they have left Afghanistan?!

It is difficult to supply terrorists after you have left the region. The question of 'plausible deniability' props up. So the best time to supply the Jihadists is, when one can claim 'plausible deniability' during supplying one's own troops to fight the Jihadists. These supplies will last a few years, and they may be used against a host of different countries and their troops, who would dare to enter Afghanistan again. A revitalized Taliban allows America-Britain axis to leave Central Asia as a very sore tooth in the middle of Asia, where no power can enter or reign in.

But then again, a revitalized Taliban also allows the Americans to sit tight right in the middle of Asia for all eternity, and keep on playing the Great Game. Nobody would want Americans to go, because they would be petrified at the thought of having to deal with the Taliban all alone.

Now that is a quality conspiracy theory! :twisted: Try beating that you Paki lurkers! :P
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by RajeshA »

I think, we are all too focused on our dream project of seeing Pakistan fall into 4-5 pieces one night. We are letting our wishes take over our deliberate analysis.

We need to start thinking how the whole region will look in say 15 years, considering everything that is taking place and will probably take place in the near future in our immediate neighborhood. We may be missing the game!
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by Bhaskar »

RajeshA wrote:I think, we are all too focused on our dream project of seeing Pakistan fall into 4-5 pieces one night. We are letting our wishes take over our deliberate analysis.

We need to start thinking how the whole region will look in say 15 years, considering everything that is taking place and will probably take place in the near future in our immediate neighborhood. We may be missing the game!
Pakistan would be wiped off the map in 11 years...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWyeyYV2AQE
Last edited by Gerard on 27 Jan 2009 04:59, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: username changed to conform with forum guidelines
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by Sanjay M »

China's interests in Afghanistan would be in conflict with Pakistan's to a certain extent. China wants no outsiders to be entering Afghanistan or opening it up to the outside world, as this region borders China's soft Western flank.

Pak, on the other hand, would like to open up the region to itself and the outside world, to bring trade and commerce to the region, positioning itself as part of a revived Silk Road.

The two contrasting visions cannot accommodate each other.

China, as part of SCO, would have a common interest with Russia and even Iran in keeping Central Asia closed to the outside world.
Beijing has no interest in seeing the US mission resoundingly succeed. It might be able to tolerate a US presence that is constantly beseiged, and thus unable to secure solid footing. At least this would ensure that the Yankees continue to be bled white.

I think that without sufficient troop increases from the European allies, the US surge might not be enough to work satisfactorily, especially when it is dependent upon Pak and Russia to sustain itself. I've often compared landlocked Afghanistan to an ear canal, but trying to get supplies there via some long winding route thru the Caucasus, etc, is like trying to get into the ear by the eustachian tube.

Unkil had just better hurry up and create Balochistan.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by ShauryaT »

Sanjay M:

You have argued for India to stay away from the southern regions of Afghanistan. What is the basis for this judgment in military and/or strategic terms?
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by kasthuri »

This article from Startfor paints a different picture altogether. It says Al-Qaeda may no longer be a threat, however the possibility of other groups emerging as a threat remains. If this is the case, I don't know how sending our troops might help. Sending our troops should then looked only from the point of view of containing and strategically encircling TSP.

Strategic Divergence: The War Against the Taliban and the War Against Al Qaeda
Strategic Divergence: The War Against the Taliban and the War Against Al Qaeda
January 26, 2009 | 1901 GMT
By George Friedman

Washington’s attention is now zeroing in on Afghanistan. There is talk of doubling U.S. forces there, and preparations are being made for another supply line into Afghanistan — this one running through the former Soviet Union — as an alternative or a supplement to the current Pakistani route. To free up more resources for Afghanistan, the U.S. withdrawal from Iraq probably will be accelerated. And there is discussion about whether the Karzai government serves the purposes of the war in Afghanistan. In short, U.S. President Barack Obama’s campaign promise to focus on Afghanistan seems to be taking shape.

We have discussed many aspects of the Afghan war in the past; it is now time to focus on the central issue. What are the strategic goals of the United States in Afghanistan? What resources will be devoted to this mission? What are the intentions and capabilities of the Taliban and others fighting the United States and its NATO allies? Most important, what is the relationship between the war against the Taliban and the war against al Qaeda? If the United States encounters difficulties in the war against the Taliban, will it still be able to contain not only al Qaeda but other terrorist groups? Does the United States need to succeed against the Taliban to be successful against transnational Islamist terrorists? And assuming that U.S. forces are built up in Afghanistan and that the supply problem through Pakistan is solved, are the defeat of Taliban and the disruption of al Qaeda likely?

Al Qaeda and U.S. Goals Post-9/11

The overarching goal of the United States since Sept. 11, 2001, has been to prevent further attacks by al Qaeda in the United States. Washington has used two means toward this end. One was defensive, aimed at increasing the difficulty of al Qaeda operatives to penetrate and operate within the United States. The second was to attack and destroy al Qaeda prime, the group around Osama bin Laden that organized and executed 9/11 and other attacks in Europe. It is this group — not other groups that call themselves al Qaeda but only are able to operate in the countries where they were formed — that was the target of the United States, because this was the group that had demonstrated the ability to launch intercontinental strikes.

Al Qaeda prime had its main headquarters in Afghanistan. It was not an Afghan group, but one drawn from multiple Islamic countries. It was in alliance with an Afghan group, the Taliban. The Taliban had won a civil war in Afghanistan, creating a coalition of support among tribes that had given the group control, direct or indirect, over most of the country. It is important to remember that al Qaeda was separate from the Taliban; the former was a multinational force, while the Taliban were an internal Afghan political power.

The United States has two strategic goals in Afghanistan. The first is to destroy the remnants of al Qaeda prime — the central command of al Qaeda — in Afghanistan. The second is to use Afghanistan as a base for destroying al Qaeda in Pakistan and to prevent the return of al Qaeda to Afghanistan.

To achieve these goals, Washington has sought to make Afghanistan inhospitable to al Qaeda. The United States forced the Taliban from Afghanistan’s main cities and into the countryside, and established a new, anti-Taliban government in Kabul under President Hamid Karzai. Washington intended to deny al Qaeda bases in Afghanistan by unseating the Taliban government, creating a new pro-American government and then using Afghanistan as a base against al Qaeda in Pakistan.

The United States succeeded in forcing the Taliban from power in the sense that in giving up the cities, the Taliban lost formal control of the country. To be more precise, early in the U.S. attack in 2001, the Taliban realized that the massed defense of Afghan cities was impossible in the face of American air power. The ability of U.S. B-52s to devastate any concentration of forces meant that the Taliban could not defend the cities, but had to withdraw, disperse and reform its units for combat on more favorable terms.

At this point, we must separate the fates of al Qaeda and the Taliban. During the Taliban retreat, al Qaeda had to retreat as well. Since the United States lacked sufficient force to destroy al Qaeda at Tora Bora, al Qaeda was able to retreat into northwestern Pakistan. There, it enjoys the advantages of terrain, superior tactical intelligence and support networks.

Even so, in nearly eight years of war, U.S. intelligence and special operations forces have maintained pressure on al Qaeda in Pakistan. The United States has imposed attrition on al Qaeda, disrupting its command, control and communications and isolating it. In the process, the United States used one of al Qaeda’s operational principles against it. To avoid penetration by hostile intelligence services, al Qaeda has not recruited new cadres for its primary unit. This makes it very difficult to develop intelligence on al Qaeda, but it also makes it impossible for al Qaeda to replace its losses. Thus, in a long war of attrition, every loss imposed on al Qaeda has been irreplaceable, and over time, al Qaeda prime declined dramatically in effectiveness — meaning it has been years since it has carried out an effective operation.

The situation was very different with the Taliban. The Taliban, it is essential to recall, won the Afghan civil war that followed the Soviet withdrawal despite Russian and Iranian support for its opponents. That means the Taliban have a great deal of support and a strong infrastructure, and, above all, they are resilient. After the group withdrew from Afghanistan’s cities and lost formal power post-9/11, it still retained a great deal of informal influence — if not control — over large regions of Afghanistan and in areas across the border in Pakistan. Over the years since the U.S. invasion, the Taliban have regrouped, rearmed and increased their operations in Afghanistan. And the conflict with the Taliban has now become a conventional guerrilla war.

The Taliban and the Guerrilla Warfare Challenge

The Taliban have forged relationships among many Afghan (and Pakistani) tribes. These tribes have been alienated by Karzai and the Americans, and far more important, they do not perceive the Americans and Karzai as potential winners in the Afghan conflict. They recall the Russian and British defeats. The tribes have long memories, and they know that foreigners don’t stay very long. Betting on the United States and Karzai — when the United States has sent only 30,000 troops to Afghanistan, and is struggling with the idea of sending another 30,000 troops — does not strike them as prudent. The United States is behaving like a power not planning to win; and, in any event, they would not be much impressed if the Americans were planning to win.

The tribes therefore do not want to get on the wrong side of the Taliban. That means they aid and shelter Taliban forces, and provide them intelligence on enemy movement and intentions. With its base camps and supply lines running from Pakistan, the Taliban are thus in a position to recruit, train and arm an increasingly large force.

The Taliban have the classic advantage of guerrillas operating in known terrain with a network of supporters: superior intelligence. They know where the Americans are, what the Americans are doing and when the Americans are going to strike. The Taliban declines combat on unfavorable terms and strikes when the Americans are weakest. The Americans, on the other hand, have the classic problem of counterinsurgency: They enjoy superior force and firepower, and can defeat anyone they can locate and pin down, but they lack intelligence. As much as technical intelligence from unmanned aerial vehicles and satellites is useful, human intelligence is the only effective long-term solution to defeating an insurgency. In this, the Taliban have the advantage: They have been there longer, they are in more places and they are not going anywhere.

There is no conceivable force the United States can deploy to pacify Afghanistan. A possible alternative is moving into Pakistan to cut the supply lines and destroy the Taliban’s base camps. The problem is that if the Americans lack the troops to successfully operate in Afghanistan, it is even less likely they have the troops to operate in both Afghanistan and Pakistan. The United States could use the Korean War example, taking responsibility for cutting the Taliban off from supplies and reinforcements from Pakistan, but that assumes that the Afghan government has an effective force motivated to engage and defeat the Taliban. The Afghan government doesn’t.

The obvious American solution — or at least the best available solution — is to retreat to strategic Afghan points and cities and protect the Karzai regime. The problem here is that in Afghanistan, holding the cities doesn’t give the key to the country; rather, holding the countryside gives the key to the cities. Moreover, a purely defensive posture opens the United States up to the Dien Bien Phu/Khe Sanh counterstrategy, in which guerrillas shift to positional warfare, isolate a base and try to overrun in it.

A purely defensive posture could create a stalemate, but nothing more. That stalemate could create the foundations for political negotiations, but if there is no threat to the enemy, the enemy has little reason to negotiate. Therefore, there must be strikes against Taliban concentrations. The problem is that the Taliban know that concentration is suicide, and so they work to deny the Americans valuable targets. The United States can exhaust itself attacking minor targets based on poor intelligence. It won’t get anywhere.

U.S. Strategy in Light of al Qaeda’s Diminution

From the beginning, the Karzai government has failed to take control of the countryside. Therefore, al Qaeda has had the option to redeploy into Afghanistan if it chose. It didn’t because it is risk-averse. That may seem like a strange thing to say about a group that flies planes into buildings, but what it means is that the group’s members are relatively few, so al Qaeda cannot risk operational failures. It thus keeps its powder dry and stays in hiding.

This then frames the U.S. strategic question. The United States has no intrinsic interest in the nature of the Afghan government. The United States is interested in making certain the Taliban do not provide sanctuary to al Qaeda prime. But it is not clear that al Qaeda prime is operational anymore. Some members remain, putting out videos now and then and trying to appear fearsome, but it would seem that U.S. operations have crippled al Qaeda.

So if the primary reason for fighting the Taliban is to keep al Qaeda prime from having a base of operations in Afghanistan, that reason might be moot now as al Qaeda appears to be wrecked. This is not to say that another Islamist terrorist group could not arise and develop the sophisticated methods and training of al Qaeda prime. But such a group could deploy many places, and in any case, obtaining the needed skills in moving money, holding covert meetings and the like is much harder than it looks — and with many intelligence services, including those in the Islamic world, on the lookout for this, recruitment would be hard.

It is therefore no longer clear that resisting the Taliban is essential for blocking al Qaeda: al Qaeda may simply no longer be there. (At this point, the burden of proof is on those who think al Qaeda remains operational.)

Two things emerge from this. First, the search for al Qaeda and other Islamist groups is an intelligence matter best left to the covert capabilities of U.S. intelligence and Special Operations Command. Defeating al Qaeda does not require tens of thousands of troops — it requires excellent intelligence and a special operations capability. That is true whether al Qaeda is in Pakistan or Afghanistan. Intelligence, covert forces and airstrikes are what is needed in this fight, and of the three, intelligence is the key.

Second, the current strategy in Afghanistan cannot secure Afghanistan, nor does it materially contribute to shutting down al Qaeda. Trying to hold some cities and strategic points with the number of troops currently under consideration is not an effective strategy to this end; the United States is already ceding large areas of Afghanistan to the Taliban that could serve as sanctuary for al Qaeda. Protecting the Karzai government and key cities is therefore not significantly contributing to the al Qaeda-suppression strategy.

In sum, the United States does not control enough of Afghanistan to deny al Qaeda sanctuary, can’t control the border with Pakistan and lacks effective intelligence and troops for defeating the Taliban.

Logic argues, therefore, for the creation of a political process for the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Afghanistan coupled with a recommitment to intelligence operations against al Qaeda. Ultimately, the United States must protect itself from radical Islamists, but cannot create a united, pro-American Afghanistan. That would not happen even if the United States sent 500,000 troops there, which it doesn’t have anyway.

A Tale of Two Surges

The U.S. strategy now appears to involve trying a surge, or sending in more troops and negotiating with the Taliban, mirroring the strategy used in Iraq. But the problem with that strategy is that the Taliban don’t seem inclined to make concessions to the United States. The Taliban don’t think the United States can win, and they know the United States won’t stay. The Petraeus strategy is to inflict enough pain on the Taliban to cause them to rethink their position, which worked in Iraq. But it did not work in Vietnam. So long as the Taliban have resources flowing and can survive American attacks, they will calculate that they can outlast the Americans. This has been Afghan strategy for centuries, and it worked against the British and Russians.

If it works against the Americans, too, splitting the al Qaeda strategy from the Taliban strategy will be the inevitable outcome for the United States. In that case, the CIA will become the critical war fighter in the theater, while conventional forces will be withdrawn. It follows that Obama will need to think carefully about his approach to intelligence.

This is not an argument that al Qaeda is no longer a threat, although the threat appears diminished. Nor is it an argument that dealing with terrorism in Afghanistan and Pakistan is not a priority. Instead, it is an argument that the defeat of the Taliban under rationally anticipated circumstances is unlikely and that a negotiated settlement in Afghanistan will be much more difficult and unlikely than the settlement was in Iraq — but that even so, a robust effort against Islamist terror groups must continue regardless of the outcome of the war with the Taliban.

Therefore, we expect that the United States will separate the two conflicts in response to these realities. This will mean that containing terrorists will not be dependent on defeating or holding out against the Taliban, holding Afghanistan’s cities, or preserving the Karzai regime. We expect the United States to surge troops into Afghanistan, but in due course, the counterterrorist portion will diverge from the counter-Taliban portion. The counterterrorist portion will be maintained as an intense covert operation, while the overt operation will wind down over time. The Taliban ruling Afghanistan is not a threat to the United States, so long as intense counterterrorist operations continue there.

The cost of failure in Afghanistan is simply too high and the connection to counterterrorist activities too tenuous for the two strategies to be linked. And since the counterterror war is already distinct from conventional operations in much of Afghanistan and Pakistan, our forecast is not really that radical.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by kasthuri »

NATO too talks of regional cooperation after US.

NATO chief sees role for Iran in Afghanistan
NATO chief sees role for Iran in Afghanistan

BRUSSELS, Jan. 26 (Xinhua) -- NATO Secretary-general Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said on Monday that all Afghanistan's neighbors, including Iran, must be engaged if the West wants to succeed in Afghanistan.

"To my mind, we need a discussion that brings in all the relevant regional players: Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, China, Russia, and yes, Iran. We need a pragmatic approach to solve this very real challenge," he told a seminar of the Security and Defense Agenda, a Brussels-based think-tank.

He said a more regional approach must be pursued. "We need to stop looking at Afghanistan as if it were an island. Afghanistan's problems cannot be solved by or within Afghanistan alone, because they are not Afghanistan's problems alone," he said.

De Hoop Scheffer argued that there is a regional network of extremists, including the Taliban and al Qaida and many others, and that there is a transnational narcotics problem as well.

But he admitted that he does not know how exactly the West would engage Iran. "I'm not sure at this stage what form that would take," he said, but stressed that the notion itself is already something.

Iran is an important neighbor of Afghanistan and has great influence on Afghanistan both culturally and economically. But regional heavyweights such as Iran, India and China have not been much engaged.

De Hoop Scheffer again asked European NATO allies to step up their contributions to Afghanistan to match U.S. pledges to send in more troops.

He asked the European allies to come up with either more forces, or at least civilian assistance. "For the political balance and for the sustainability of this mission, this has to be a true team effort," he said.

He also called for overcoming the compartmentalization of international efforts in Afghanistan. "Our international efforts are still too much of a patchwork, militarily, politically and in terms of development assistance. We need to bring these walls down."

NATO is leading a 55,000-strong International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan. But the troops are not enough to curb the increasingly bold insurgency.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by ShauryaT »

From the George Friedman article above:
The Petraeus strategy is to inflict enough pain on the Taliban to cause them to rethink their position, which worked in Iraq. But it did not work in Vietnam. So long as the Taliban have resources flowing and can survive American attacks, they will calculate that they can outlast the Americans. This has been Afghan strategy for centuries, and it worked against the British and Russians.
Not True. The Petraeus strategy among other things is to provide security to the population, which is precisely what the NATO forces, who have control of southern Afghanistan since mid 2006 refused to do, resulting in a higher percentage of attacks from the Taleban. 80% of the population in the south lives in two cities. The total population of the area is a little over 3 million. Large parts of the area are uninhabited. Except for the border regions with TSP, most of the area is at an elevation level of less than 1000 meters. The Petraeus strategy should work very well.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by kasthuri »

ShauryaT wrote:Not True. The Petraeus strategy among other things is to provide security to the population, which is precisely what the NATO forces, who have control of southern Afghanistan since mid 2006 refused to do, resulting in a higher percentage of attacks from the Taleban. 80% of the population in the south lives in two cities. The total population of the area is a little over 3 million. Large parts of the area are uninhabited. Except for the border regions with TSP, most of the area is at an elevation level of less than 1000 meters. The Petraeus strategy should work very well.
ShauryaT: I would like to point out to an article by B.Raman who says why Petraeus idea wouldn't work in Afghanistan. I have read couple of other articles too stating his idea won't work there.

PASHTUNS AREN'T IRAQIS: TALIBAN'S MESSAGE TO GEN.PETRAEUS
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by Sanjay M »

ShauryaT wrote:Sanjay M:

You have argued for India to stay away from the southern regions of Afghanistan. What is the basis for this judgment in military and/or strategic terms?
Pak/ISI are heavily invested with the Pashtuns, and they won't hesitate to take the war to us immediately, if we put ourselves within easy reach inside the Pashtun territories. Don't give them that opportunity.

Let Unkil dance with the Pashtuns, and even bring them all together in one ho-down, while we stay safely out of the fray and partition off the north to pursue a separate existence.

Unkil, Pak and the Pashtuns will all be locked in the same box together, like scorpions in a bottle. One will not come out of there alive.

The cross-border conflict will intensify, and at some point Unkil is going to have to move across the DMZ into Vietcong territory. Nobody can keep fighting a war with one arm tied behind their back, surge or no surge.

The best thing is for Unkil to quit the dead-end road while he's ahead, and just go in for Baluchistan, where the road is rough but traversible.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by ShauryaT »

kasthuri wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:Not True. The Petraeus strategy among other things is to provide security to the population, which is precisely what the NATO forces, who have control of southern Afghanistan since mid 2006 refused to do, resulting in a higher percentage of attacks from the Taleban. 80% of the population in the south lives in two cities. The total population of the area is a little over 3 million. Large parts of the area are uninhabited. Except for the border regions with TSP, most of the area is at an elevation level of less than 1000 meters. The Petraeus strategy should work very well.
ShauryaT: I would like to point out to an article by B.Raman who says why Petraeus idea wouldn't work in Afghanistan. I have read couple of other articles too stating his idea won't work there.

PASHTUNS AREN'T IRAQIS: TALIBAN'S MESSAGE TO GEN.PETRAEUS
Everyone is banking on the idea that the foreigners in the region will eventually go away and all the Taleban has to do is outlast them. Now, change the game, what if the foreigner is actually a "local", who can eat the Kababs and Nan and can manage to converse in the local language, somewhat looks like them and is there in large enough numbers and even he has nowhere to go? Did the formation of the RR make a marked difference in IA's CI Ops?

The Pashtuns may look radicalized but at their core they are more tribal and less wahabi.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by Satya_anveshi »

I hope we already have theaters in urban (and semi-urban) centers of Afghanistan running movies like Khuda Gawah with Indian Tea, Idly and Vada served for free Day in and Day out (help for our Afghan brethren from India type message). I am sure it won't cost much.

We definitely need more such Khuda Gawah type movies.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by ShauryaT »

Sanjay M wrote: Let Unkil dance with the Pashtuns, and even bring them all together in one ho-down, while we stay safely out of the fray and partition off the north to pursue a separate existence.
How many nations can you cite, who have outsourced their security issues to someone else and have not had to pay through their nose for generations?
The best thing is for Unkil to quit the dead-end road while he's ahead, and just go in for Baluchistan, where the road is rough but traversible.
A far easier and productive option is to rope in Iran, either directly or at least indirectly.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by Sanjay M »

ShauryaT wrote:
Sanjay M wrote: Let Unkil dance with the Pashtuns, and even bring them all together in one ho-down, while we stay safely out of the fray and partition off the north to pursue a separate existence.
How many nations can you cite, who have outsourced their security issues to someone else and have not had to pay through their nose for generations?
Sorry, but just staying in the Pashtun lands waiting to be attacked is a recipe for disaster. Either change the borders or else stay away from that area.

Or ideally, do both. We can stay away, and let Unkil change the borders. Because, believe me on this, you can't just stay in areas like that treading water, without trying to go somewhere by changing the border. Either end that situation, or that situation will end you.

Having Unkil focus on the Pashtun lands will force him to undergo a re-think, and realize that Pak cannot be kept the way it is, otherwise it's a disaster waiting to happen. AlQaeda would get the nukes for sure, if Unkil withdraws in defeat without destroying them.
The best thing is for Unkil to quit the dead-end road while he's ahead, and just go in for Baluchistan, where the road is rough but traversible.
A far easier and productive option is to rope in Iran, either directly or at least indirectly.
Baluchistan isn't defensible, if Unkil backs its separation. There'd be nothing Pak could do about it. So what's so unproductive about that?

India staying in the Northern part of Afghanistan could still indeed rope in Iran, although on the quiet.
The new highway will give Iran and Afghanistan tremendous traffic between them, for the betterment of both.

But US would never tolerate Iranian troops on Afghan soil, if that's what you mean.

And since the Russians are making overtures to Karzai, then perhaps he may take them up on their offers, allowing them entry into the country. Putin seems to have Unkil right where he wants them.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by ShauryaT »

Sanjay M wrote:
But US would never tolerate Iranian troops on Afghan soil, if that's what you mean.
No.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by hnair »

Was away for some days. Rudradev, thanks for the clarification. I thought you were on a personal note.

When it comes to pakis (or chinese), American policy is always 100% against Indian POV. These two authoritarian govts wimp out in confronting US and US knows how far they can utlize them. The GOTUS always has this "we identify with India" routine for almost all our concerns, but on the ground, they just wants us to remain static in our neighbourhood, so they can have unfettered play time. pre-911, I would have bothered to listen to a US Prez saying the stuff that Obama says. But why should I care until he proves he is the first president to go against his own establishment?

If it wasn't for the fact that the ISI-Taliban rulership of Afghanistan was directly responsible for an event of #1 category (i.e. 9-11), America would never have invaded Afghanistan.
But where is the proof that they ever targeted ISI (the most visible and acknowledged state player behind al-qaeda) after 911? That Gen Pasha gets feted out in the nearest CVN, while his plan for Mumbai attack is underway? Cant say a lunch with a USN admiral is equal to a 2000lb LGB crashing down on Pasha's biriyani or Taj's bungalow.

Your assumption that paki credibility is at a historic low might be true from a populist view point. But in reality, the Pakistanis never seem to have any credibility with the US. So there is no question of them sinking below any past levels.

Osama and Haqqani are not something that the US establishment looses sleep over. If they did, they would be dead by now, be they in Pakistan or not. These jerks are used like tampons to absorb the bleeding from a wounded public psyche. Once the tampon does not hold anymore blood, they will be discarded. And I think Obama's signals show that the time has come. As long as Mecca and Medina are in the tight control of their proxies, US is reasonably safe from any serious glowing matter. What would Obama do if Pakis privately tell him that any major US action inside Pakistan would be treated as a kidwai line violation? So would Obama go in and find out if "Kidwai's Folly" is real? Indian leadership do not have his luxury - of ignoring what you talk about. We dont have any say in the House of Saud. Our Islamic Ulemas cannot yet replace their's. Atleast not yet. The only sure thing is that a catastrophe in an Indian city, will have the usual GOTUS of the day "identifying" with us as usual and nothing else. So I would not hold my breath for Obama to act inside Pak. If he does, fine. But it is not what we should bank on.

Now being in Afghanistan has its advantages
- Currently, Kidwai line is a line inside Pak. What if we help draw a Karzai line and say you are toast if you step over that? A conventional toast at that.
- Najibullah beat the ass of all the "brave mujahids" till the mid-90s, until Durrani had to send in his thugs, physically. If we were there, would Durrani have dared that? Would Iran have backed off if we were there as an ally with them and NA? I agree, those were difficult times and we could not even think of such things from an economic view point. But now we can and we should.
- As a lot of people have pointed out: an army shipping Aquafina and an army drinking boiled water from local wells has big differences from an Afghan's POV.

IMs do not really care what we do in Afghanistan - they realized that listening to a paki is a sure way of getting fried in the current Indian context. And claiming they will care is a sure way of letting opportunistic leaders amongst IM to mess around with influencing votebank politics.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by Philip »

Finally some sense is dawning upon the US and NATO after the exit of the Bush bufoons.It is patently obvious that the US/NATO cannot win in Afghanistan for the reasons in the above article,especially what we on BR have been saying for ages,that without the help of strong regional partners like India,Iran,the northern states,etc.,plus superpower Russia-the key Central Asian power,the Taliban in protected sanctuary within Pakistani territory cannot be eliminated as well as AlQ's leaders also in hiding.

To supply its troops it needs both routes,the northern one with the blessings of Russia and the Iranian route using the new "Indian" highway,where the job of supplying the Afghan state can be outsourced to India.India is a nation that is acceptable to both Russians and hopefully the US.Thus far the US has tried to keep India's influence at a low key level in support of Paki interests.It will have to accomodate India if it wishes the survival of its military adventurism,which in any case will end one day! Indian "contractors" supplying the Afghan state via Iran using the new road ,plus air cover and protection for the same from the bases in Tajikistan,would assist the Afghan govt.immensely checkmating the efforts of the Paki Talibs in squeezing western troops.The northern borders would be safeguarded by influence of the the northern states and Russia,and the well supplied Afghan military can then assert itself in attemtping control of the vast areas outside the cities and the US/NATO can concentrate upon stopping the Taliban from advancing from the Paki borders,bringing in the B-52s when neccessary.The ones who would be most upset would be the Paki military/ISI and its own version of the Talibs,the jehadis,
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by kasthuri »

So any hopes of India partnering with Russia in Afghanistan can be ruled out.

Russian envoy rules out troops for Afghanistan
Russian envoy rules out troops for Afghanistan

BRUSSELS, Jan. 27 (Xinhua) -- Russian envoy to NATO, Dmitry Rogozin, on Tuesday ruled out troops for Afghanistan, saying it would be a silly thing to send in Russian troops again after occupation of the country during the Cold War.

"We are not talking about such a long-term perspective as for Russian public opinion. We've been to Afghanistan and we didn't like it. So to go back is a silly thing," Rogozin told reporters.

He said Russia is not going to take part in projects, which might even indirectly involve Russia military action on ground in Afghanistan, he said.

Russian help to the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) will only be civilian cargo through Russia soil to ISAF in Afghanistan. "That's the bottom line for Russia now."

Rogozin indicated caution of any Russian military involvement, citing a Russian proverb: if you put you finger in his mouth, he will cut your arm up to the elbow.

On transit routes to Afghanistan through Russia, Rogozin said his country is ready to immediately launch negotiations on arrangements. But the problem is that the NATO international secretariat needs to finalize agreements with other neighboring countries through which the transit routes also need to go along.

Rogozin also asked new U.S. President Barack Obama to rethink plans for a strategic missile defense shield in Eastern Europe, which Russia believes is detrimental to its own national security.

He said the missile defense system is costly and ineffective. "Securing oneself with those missile defense sites in Eastern Europe is as if you want to warm up in a cold Brussels night by burning suitcases full of 100-U.S. dollar bills." Its efficiency in providing Europe and the United States equals to zero, he added.

To test the system's efficiency, one needs a Hollywood film scenario of a massive nuclear attack, which is impossible in real life, he said.

Rogozin welcomed Obama's intention to withdraw troops from Iraq and fight the real threats: terrorism in the region around Afghanistan.

Rogozin said Russia is ready to restore relations with NATO, damaged by the military conflict in August 2008. He confirmed that NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer will meet Russia Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov on Feb. 6 on the sidelines of the Munich security policy conference, the highest level political contact between the two sides following the August 2008 Georgia conflict.

NATO suspended high-level political contacts with Russia, including regular meetings of ambassadors, following the August conflict. As a sign of thawing ties, Rogozin met ambassadors from NATO allies on Monday, the first of its kind in five months.

Rogozin said he was optimistic about future relations with NATO." It is easy to break a pot but difficult to put the pieces together. But we will do that," he said.

There was initiative on the NATO side and good will on the Russian side, he added.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by RajeshA »

kasthuri wrote:So any hopes of India partnering with Russia in Afghanistan can be ruled out.

Russian envoy rules out troops for Afghanistan
The British, the Russians learned and now the Americans too are having to learn the bitter lessons of trying to bring own ideas of order into Afghanistan.

Indians should stop having dreams of sending troops to Afghanistan and expecting we will be able to do good there without any resistance. We can try selling this idea under whatever great strategic plans and labels and names, etc. but it remains a lousy idea.

The Afghanistan War is costing the Americans $100 million a day. There are thousand other ways the GoI can invest our scarce money.

We are getting 75% of what we want by staying put. The Americans are poking their noses in the hornet's nest and sending all the wasps in the direction of Pakistan. The Taliban are going to bleed Pakistan dry. It is not just the tribal areas, which are in uproar. The whole of Pakistan is losing its governance and cohesion. The Pakistanis have zero confidence in their state, and the state is in retreat everywhere.

The 25% that we need, is seeing to it, that there are contingency plans for the breakup of TSP, and that the Northern Afghans can hold back the wave of the Taliban and Talibanism. This can be done by training a bigger Afghan National Army. There have been suggestions, that the West should finance an Army of around 230,000 soldiers, instead of just 70,000. We should sit together with Russia and Iran and devise a strategy of support to the Tajiks, Uzbeks, Turkmen, Hazara, Aimak and others of Northern Afghanistan as well as some Pushtun tribes who resist the Taliban. That would be more than enough on our plate.

In fact, the Taliban can be very useful for India. On the one hand, they will hollow out the Pakjabis and on the other they will push the Northern Afghans to develop much closer relations with Indians. I still have to hear of the Taliban going to other places to do Jihad. These are Pushtuns who are obsessed with Pushtunistan, but find radical Islam a convenient vehicle for their struggle. It has always been the Pakjabis, who have been virulently anti-India and have fancied for themselves a role of bringing down the Hindu nation. The Pushtuns couldn't care less. For them it would become worthwhile only if they have themselves regained their freedom, have plenty of time at hand, and it is lucrative. Nothing like that is about to happen soon.

So let us just sit back and let Americans and Baitullah do our work for us. Iran has also just sat back and let America take care of its two foes: Saddam and Taliban. What is the big Khujli?
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by ramana »

RajeshA, Please try to read the history of the Second Afghan War.

Thanks, ramana
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by RajeshA »

Ramana ji,

thanks for the advice. Will do, when possible.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by kasthuri »

RajeshA wrote:So let us just sit back and let Americans and Baitullah do our work for us.
The only concern here is that, in case the Americans retreat and Taliban holds the upper hand, they will make sure to place a convenient regime which cannot exclude the moderate Taliban. I seriously don't know how good this will be in our interests. In order to keep Taliban's out of the picture, I feel some sort of strong intervention from the Indian side is necessary (and that too looking into the possible ouster of Karzai). On the other hand, what you say is true that we don't need to spend our valuable money (although it is in our interest) to be fighting US's main threat. In this case, we should negotiate with the US to finance our troops there. A little financial burden (a few percentage) on our part is okay, but not in its entirety. When it comes to the financing part, India can even negotiate with the regions of interest, not only to the US.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by ShauryaT »

RajeshA wrote:So let us just sit back and let Americans and Baitullah do our work for us. Iran has also just sat back and let America take care of its two foes: Saddam and Taliban. What is the big Khujli?
You forget the 8+ years of Iran-Iraq war. The population centers of Iran are more in the north and west of Iran and not the east. The east does not bother them as much. A Taleban regime for India means, TSP gets its strategic depth. Trusting the Americans or anyone else to do our job for us and for our interests are pipe dreams. The Americans will only do enough to protect their interests. Their current interests are limited to ensuring that there is a regime in Afghanistan that will not allow the use of its terrritory to wage attacks on the US or its allies. If the US can find a way, at least in their view, to rope in the current "militants" (note the change in term) to govern along with the support of TSP, then it may not be a bad outcome for them. The question is, will it be a good outcome for India?

Play the game and simulate all the likely and potential exit options for the US in the region and see, what you come up with, as time goes on.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by kasthuri »

MOD: It looks like there are several news coming from the Afghan front. From Russia's interest to the possible inclusion of Iran. And in the coming days, we will be hearing more. And I don't know if they are relevant under this title, although they are in the context of sending our troops to Afghanistan (if there are any such plans going on). Since concrete info on sending our troops are relatively rare, I think it may be a good idea to change the title of this thread to a more general one. Or merge this to one of the GWOT/Strategy threads if not a new thread. I can collect all the relevant collected news and put them into a new thread - but changing this title would be an easier option. What do you think?

On including Iran into the GWOT - from Stratfor.

Iran, NATO: Afghanistan and the Potential for Cooperation
Iran, NATO: Afghanistan and the Potential for Cooperation
January 27, 2009 | 1937 GMT

NATO’s secretary-general has called on the United States and NATO to work directly with Iran over Afghanistan. His remarks come against a backdrop of similar calls by the U.S. military and political leadership to involve Iran in deciding Afghanistan’s future. Though this would not be the first time the United States has reached out to the Iranians on Afghanistan, the strategic interests of all parties involved point to greater cooperation between Iran and the West moving forward this time.

Analysis

NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer called on the United States and its fellow NATO allies to engage with Iran to quell the jihadist insurgency in Afghanistan. Speaking the evening of Jan. 26 at the Brussels-based Security and Defense Agenda think tank, de Hoop Scheffer argued that the United States and NATO need to build a regional consensus, involving “Afghanistan, India, China, Russia and yes, Iran” to help stabilize Afghanistan, though he could not elaborate on what form such constructive engagement with Iran would take.

The NATO secretary-general is not the only one advocating an Iranian role in Afghanistan. U.S. Central Command (CENTCOM) chief Gen. David Petraeus recently hinted at potential U.S.-Iranian cooperation over Afghanistan during a Jan. 8 talk in Washington, where he remarked that Iran “doesn’t want to see … extremists running Afghanistan any more than other folks do.” In fact, a key part of Petraeus’ CENTCOM campaign strategy for Afghanistan and Iraq (a project still in progress) is intended to reflect U.S. President Barack Obama’s intentions to engage directly with the Iranians on issues of mutual interest.

This would not be the first time Washington has reached out to Tehran for assistance in Afghanistan. In the lead-up to the 2001 U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, the United States and Iran were involved in back-channel discussions over ways in which the Iranians could use their influence to facilitate the invasion and help topple the Taliban. After all, Iran — a Persian and Shiite power — is enormously threatened by the empowerment of hard-line Sunni extremists across its eastern frontier, and has actively supported the Tajik-dominated Northern Alliance in Afghanistan to counter the Taliban’s rise. Similarly, the Iranians were enormously threatened by Saddam Hussein’s hostile Sunni regime to Iran’s west. So after 9/11, Iran had an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone: It could act as enabler for a U.S. invasion in Afghanistan to remove the Taliban regime, and could use its Shiite allies in Iraq to facilitate the U.S. invasion of Iraq to topple Hussein. Though these U.S.-Iranian back-channel communications over Afghanistan and Iraq were kept quiet, they did end up setting a precedent for cooperation between Washington and Tehran.

Shortly after the U.S. invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, however, the United States felt less and less compelled to deepen cooperation with the Iranians. The United States had a balancing act to maintain in the region, and did not see it in the U.S. strategic interest to allow Iran a disproportionate amount of Shiite influence throughout the region that would compromise U.S. relations with key Sunni regimes. Feeling double-crossed, the Iranians began to activate their militant assets in Iraq and Afghanistan to keep the United States’ hands tied and to keep a negotiating lever in reserve for when Washington would require Iranian services again.

The time has now come for the West to make a request. Though U.S.-Iranian cooperation over Iraq has been unsteady, it has produced real progress in curtailing Shiite militias and allowing for greater Sunni integration in the political and security apparatus in exchange for giving Iran considerable influence in Iraq. Now, the U.S. military focus is shifting to Afghanistan, where the insurgent landscape is far more challenging — and where Iran has done its part to complicate the war for the United States.

Iran has not allowed ideology or religion to stand in the way of its militant proxy projects. The Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) has supplied Taliban and al Qaeda militants in Afghanistan with sophisticated improvised explosive devices to use against U.S. troops, and it closely monitors the movements of al Qaeda members who use Iran to travel between South Asia and the Middle East. If the United States and NATO could elicit Iranian cooperation on Afghanistan, they not only could cut into the insurgent supply chain, they also could get their hands on a substantial amount of useful intelligence for use in targeting key al Qaeda and Taliban members.

In addition, the United States and NATO could look to Iran as an alternate supply route to Afghanistan. The Pakistani supply routes from the port of Karachi through the Khyber Pass or Chaman into Afghanistan — while short and relatively cheap — have become increasingly unreliable, forcing the United States to look at complex alternate and/or supplementary supply routes through Central Asia and the Caucasus. These alternatives come at a high price both logistically and geopolitically. Logistically speaking, a much more feasible route would traverse Iran, where NATO supplies could be offloaded from the Iranian port of Chahbahar, transferred to trucks and transported into Afghanistan’s Nimroz province by road.

Naturally, such a route would involve a huge leap in negotiations between Iran and the West. The United States and NATO are not about to have their war efforts in Afghanistan held hostage to a hostile Iranian regime — and the Iranians indeed are expecting a number of politically contentious concessions, ranging from Iranian nuclear rights to expanded regional influence to security guarantees from the West, in return for its cooperation. A diplomatic effort appears to be under way in Washington to discuss these issues, but the process with be trying and time-consuming.

There might be a way, however, for non-U.S. NATO countries — for example, the United Kingdom, Germany and France — to accelerate the diplomatic process. The United Kingdom, Germany and France are the largest troop-contributing NATO members to Afghanistan after the United States. These countries have long maintained relations with the Islamic republic, and have played a role in mediating between Iran and the United States over the years. If non-U.S. NATO members with sizable military contingents in Afghanistan could open up a separate line of negotiations for an alternate route through Iran, the burden of supplying Afghanistan could be greatly eased.

Germany is the key country to watch in this dynamic. Since the Iranians have historical reasons for distrusting the British and the Russians (both of whom briefly occupied Iranian territory during World War II), Iranians commonly see Germany as the preferred European gateway to the West. Germany is Iran’s primary Western trading partner, an economic relationship that has remained robust in spite of years of increased sanctions against Iran. The Germans currently have the third-largest NATO contingent in Afghanistan (3,220 troops) after the United States and United Kingdom, and already have made deals with the Russians to ship their supplies via Russian-influenced Central Asia. If the Germans can deal with the Russians, with whom they have a highly contentious relationship, they can very well deal with the Iranians on an additional supply route. Moreover, any supplemental negotiating track between the Europeans and the Iranians could work in concert with the U.S. diplomatic strategy for Iran, thereby injecting more confidence into Iran’s relationship with the West.

The diplomatic complexities of dealing with Iran cannot be underestimated, but just a year or two ago it would have seemed quite outlandish for NATO and the United States to look to the Iranians for help on Afghanistan. What needs to be remembered is that a precedent for such cooperation exists, and though it has been a bumpy ride, the Iranians and the United States are moving toward some sort of mutual understanding on Iraq. With U.S. strategic priorities now shifting from Iraq to Afghanistan, Iran and the West have yet another reason to restart negotiations.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by ShauryaT »

RajeshA wrote:Indians should stop having dreams of sending troops to Afghanistan and expecting we will be able to do good there without any resistance. We can try selling this idea under whatever great strategic plans and labels and names, etc. but it remains a lousy idea.
If it is a lousy idea, what is a better one to be on the offensive against the TSP? Certainly, sitting back cannot be counted as a plan?
The Afghanistan War is costing the Americans $100 million a day. There are thousand other ways the GoI can invest our scarce money.
One American soldier costs as much as 70 Afghani soldiers. So, these numbers without context does not help. This was the same type of logic used, during parakram and the result is Mumbai and a dozen more such events and the continued sponsorship of terrorism that costs our nation a lot more, in lost opportunites, with Kashmir still unreachable for most Indians. What were the economic losses due to Mumbai alone? I personally know of atleast a dozen Mumbai families, who "canceled/down scaled" their plans from popular locations, due to the issue. Goa alone had 40% vacancies during new year!
The whole of Pakistan is losing its governance and cohesion. The Pakistanis have zero confidence in their state, and the state is in retreat everywhere.
The case for governance in TSP never existed. Here is an hypothesis. The Taleban issue in TSP is a managed one and TSP is capable of subduing this issue at will, if desired.
That would be more than enough on our plate.
I am of the view that the IA can do a far better job of CI ops in the region than any of the outside jokers can.
In fact, the Taliban can be very useful for India. On the one hand, they will hollow out the Pakjabis and on the other they will push the Northern Afghans to develop much closer relations with Indians. I still have to hear of the Taliban going to other places to do Jihad. These are Pushtuns who are obsessed with Pushtunistan, but find radical Islam a convenient vehicle for their struggle. It has always been the Pakjabis, who have been virulently anti-India and have fancied for themselves a role of bringing down the Hindu nation. The Pushtuns couldn't care less. For them it would become worthwhile only if they have themselves regained their freedom, have plenty of time at hand, and it is lucrative. Nothing like that is about to happen soon.
Are you sure of the highlighted segments? I will encourage you to look at the issue of Taliban not from the prism of western sources but from the prism of the various tribes of Afganistan and their world views and then see for yourself, who the Taliban really are?
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by kasthuri »

Another news about Iran's potential foray into Afghanistan.

US envoy predicts 'direct diplomacy' with Iran
US envoy predicts 'direct diplomacy' with Iran

By JOHN HEILPRIN – 1 day ago

UNITED NATIONS (AP) — President Barack Obama's administration will engage in "direct diplomacy" with Iran, the newly installed U.S. ambassador to the United Nations said Monday.

Not since before the 1979 Iranian revolution are U.S. officials believed to have conducted wide-ranging direct diplomacy with Iranian officials. But U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice warned that Iran must meet U.N. Security Council demands to suspend uranium enrichment before any talks on its nuclear program.

"The dialogue and diplomacy must go hand in hand with a very firm message from the United States and the international community that Iran needs to meet its obligations as defined by the Security Council. And its continuing refusal to do so will only cause pressure to increase," she told reporters during a brief question-and-answer session.

Her comments, reflecting Obama's signals for improved relations with America's foes after eight years under President George W. Bush, came shortly after meeting with Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon on her first day in her new job.

Iran still considers the U.S. the "Great Satan," but a day after Obama was sworn in, said it was "ready for new approaches by the United States." Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki said his country would study the idea of allowing the U.S. to open a diplomatic office in Tehran, the first since 1979.

Rice said the U.S. remains "deeply concerned about the threat that Iran's nuclear program poses to the region, indeed to the United States and the entire international community."

"We look forward to engaging in vigorous diplomacy that includes direct diplomacy with Iran, as well as continued collaboration and partnership" with the other four permanent members of the Security Council — Britain, China, France and Russia — plus Germany, Rice said.

"And we will look at what is necessary and appropriate with respect to maintaining pressure toward that goal of ending Iran's nuclear program," she said.

In recent years, Iranian and American officials have negotiated in the same room on talks about Afghanistan that involved other countries' diplomats. They also talked face to face in Baghdad but the agenda was limited to Iraqi security.

But the differences between Washington and Tehran run deep. They include U.S. suspicions about Iran's nuclear program, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's threats to annihilate Israel, and Tehran's support for Hamas.

Rice met with Ban in the morning to present her credentials. She said they spent 45 minutes discussing climate change, poverty reduction, U.N. peacekeeping, nonproliferation, Sudan and the Middle East.

She told reporters that "putting the United States at the center of international efforts to support poverty reduction, development, fighting disease and achieving the (U.N.) Millennium Development Goals, which President Obama has said repeatedly, will now be America's goals as well."

Rice said the U.S. will address the Gaza conflict on Tuesday in the Security Council, seeking ways "to support efforts to ensure that that cease-fire is lasting, and in that context for border crossings to open and be available for humanitarian as well as day-to-day economic development imperatives."

Rice, who was a key Africa adviser to the Clinton administration during the 1994 Rwandan genocide, also said the Obama administation remains "very deeply concerned about the ongoing genocide in Darfur."

"The priority at this point has to be effective protection for civilians," she said, adding that she had discussed ways to fully deploy the U.N. peacekeeping mission in Darfur "so that there is the capacity on the ground to begin to effect that civilian protection."

In Washington, Obama's top spokesman said that Rice was merely restating the president's policy on Iran.

Asked about Rice's comments to reporters at U.N. headquarters in New York, Robert Gibbs, the White House press secretary, that what Rice did "was simply to restate the message" that the administration is "going to use all elements of our national power" to address concerns about Iran's nuclear program.

NATO's secretary-general, Japp de Hoop Scheffer, also said Monday that NATO must engage with Iran to secure regional support for the escalating war in neighboring Afghanistan.

The surprise call from the head of the Western alliance comes as the new U.S. administration prepares to send 30,000 more troops into Afghanistan, where Taliban militants are regrouping and violence is on the rise. They will reinforce the 62,000-strong NATO and U.S. force already operating there.

"We need a discussion that brings in all the relevant players: Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, China, Russia — and yes, Iran. We need a pragmatic approach to solve this very real challenge," de Hoop Scheffer said in a speech to the Security and Defense Agenda, a Brussels-based think tank.

Until now, the United States has sought to isolate the clerical regime in Iran from meddling in Afghanistan, although the Shiite nation has a long history of opposing Taliban rule there. De Hoop Scheffer said what's required is a broader approach that includes all of Afghanistan's neighbors, but he was "not sure at this stage" how to constructively bring Iran into Afghanistan diplomacy.
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Post by Guddu »

The best thing is for Unkil to quit the dead-end road while he's ahead, and just go in for Baluchistan, where the road is rough but traversible.

"Baluchistan isn't defensible, if Unkil backs its separation. There'd be nothing Pak could do about it. So what's so unproductive about that?"
Could you pl. explain why the US should help free Baluchistan ?...I can see why we would want to do that, but what is the US interest to free Baluchistan as opposed to say Waziristan?
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