Artillery Discussion Thread

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jan 2010 08:37

all that stuff is mostly outside the raw pinaka and in realm of IACCS which is supposed to network the artillery units. its supposed to be under implementation being a huge project - not sure if all artillery units are already onboard or being progressively brought in.

WLR radars are few and will be corps level assets perhaps until BEL delivers the 30 ordered of rajendra WLR (we need atleast 100 more).

the only stuff inside the pinaka to look for is whether they already have the israeli TC (trajectory correction) device to much reduce the CEP.

alok_c · Post by **alok_c** » 17 Jan 2010 11:14

Sid wrote:isn't size of hydraulics here too big for its payload? If we compare it to Smerch or Grad, they appear to be a bit bigger.

(Speculating): Is it possible that the hydraulics have been designed to handle higher weight rockets later on? From the first photograph posted on Livefist, the launcher containers appear to be resting horizontally higher than any other part of the front cabin - so my guess is that as an when a longer rocket is inducted, it will not be a problem. Just a thought, nothing concrete to back it up.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 17 Jan 2010 11:25

When I look at the smerch trucks, it looks like the launchers can be moved only up and down ( in one direction). So the trucks might have to be put in right direction to launch the rockets. However, on Pinaka, it looks like the launchers can be moved in any direction, so the truck can be in any direction and they can point the launchers in the right direction. That might explain the complex hydraulics on Pinaka trucks

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 17 Jan 2010 11:43

[Speculation alert on]
In case of power failure, does Pinaka have manual operating mode? That may require larger size to accommodate those machinery.
[Speculation alert off]

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 17 Jan 2010 11:47

putnanja wrote:When I look at the smerch trucks, it looks like the launchers can be moved only up and down ( in one direction). So the trucks might have to be put in right direction to launch the rockets. However, on Pinaka, it looks like the launchers can be moved in any direction, so the truck can be in any direction and they can point the launchers in the right direction. That might explain the complex hydraulics on Pinaka trucks

alok_c wrote: (Speculating): Is it possible that the hydraulics have been designed to handle higher weight rockets later on? From the first photograph posted on Livefist, the launcher containers appear to be resting horizontally higher than any other part of the front cabin - so my guess is that as an when a longer rocket is inducted, it will not be a problem. Just a thought, nothing concrete to back it up.

Both of you are right. IMHO, it might be a foresighted move to give the launcher a capability to launch different munitions like US HIMARS. Also the ability to swivel in any direction opens up many possibilities the way it can be employed in rough terrain.

alok_c · Post by **alok_c** » 17 Jan 2010 12:01

putnanja wrote:When I look at the smerch trucks, it looks like the launchers can be moved only up and down ( in one direction). So the trucks might have to be put in right direction to launch the rockets.

I initially thought the same, but found this video which shows the off-axis movement of the Smerch tubes (around 50sec onwards). However, the arc of movement might be limited compared to Pinaka which (I guess) can provide a 180 deg firing solution.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 22 Jan 2010 07:40

Army, MoD lock horns over ban on Singapore Technologies

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) faces accusations of serious contradictions in the apparently ill-considered ban it had imposed last June on arms vendor Singapore Technologies Kinetic (STK). The ban was slapped on seven companies after the May 19, 2009 arrest of former Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) chairman, Sudipta Ghosh, on charges of corruption.

The ban on STK is all but collapsing. Next month, STK’s 155-mm towed gun will take part in firing trials — cleared by the MoD - for selecting a new-generation artillery piece for the Indian Army. STK’s Lightweight Assault Rifle will also begin army trials in February. Inexplicably, though, the ban remains on STK’s 155-mm Pegasus ultralight howitzer, which the army wants urgently for India’s mountain divisions.

The Pegasus trials remain blocked despite efforts of the army chief, General Deepak Kapoor — himself an artilleryman — who requested the MoD for trials to continue alongside the Central Bureau of Investigation’s investigations, to save time (reported in Business Standard on July 18, 2009). Rejecting that request, the MoD approached Washington to allow India to buy the American BAE Systems’ M777 ultralight howitzer.

The army, however, wants the option open on both, not a single-vendor situation in which the US-based company can dictate its price. Despite the MoD ban, the army chief has publicly declared that the STK howitzer remains an option.

On January 14, 2009, General Kapoor told the press, “We have one gun (the Pegasus) waiting for trials and, at the same time, we have approached a foreign country (the US) for purchasing an ultralight howitzer directly. We will follow both routes. The moment one of them is successful, we will go ahead with that purchase.”

But, MoD sources say they are not rethinking the ban on the Pegasus. They say the CBI has solid proof that STK paid money into Ghosh’s bank account in Singapore. Asked why the CBI has failed to file charges against Ghosh, who was freed on bail last July, they have no answers.
Now, STK has also, for the first time, publicly protested the ban. Last week, STK’s CEO, Brigadier-General Patrick Choy, revealed to the press in New Delhi that he had travelled to India last year to assist the CBI in its investigations into Ghosh’s alleged corruption. Choy said he had invited the CBI team to Singapore for a full audit of STK, promising that he would fully open the company’s books to investigators. The CBI has not, so far, responded.

STK first encountered the unpredictability of the Indian defence market when it flew a Pegasus howitzer into India for trials last year, in response to an MoD request. On June 5, 2009, just as the Pegasus reached the Pokhran Field Firing Ranges in Rajasthan, a media statement from the MoD spokesperson announced that STK had been banned. To this day, the MoD has not officially intimated STK about any ban.

After remaining stranded by the roadside in Pokhran for several days, the Pegasus was moved to Gwalior, where it remains housed in an army unit.

The Indian Army’s artillery modernisation plan has remained stalled, for various reasons, for over two decades; the ultralight howitzer is only the latest procurement fiasco. The army’s 180 artillery gun regiments — each having 18 guns — have not received any new weaponry since the Bofors gun was bought in the late 1980s.

Sigh..Mr.Clean is prooving to be a real burden!

negi · Post by **negi** » 22 Jan 2010 07:46

^ Don't know about the IA (for it already has Tavor ) but there was a talk of IPS, BSF ,CRPF and CISF being armed with ST Kinetics's SAR 21 assault rifle perhaps IA would be signing off on the user trials.

Venu · Post by **Venu** » 22 Jan 2010 07:53

Picklu wrote:[Speculation alert on]
In case of power failure, does Pinaka have manual operating mode? That may require larger size to accommodate those machinery.
[Speculation alert off]

Yes. Indeed.

Wiki(pedia) baba wrote:
Modes of operation

The launcher can operate in the following modes:

Autonomous mode. The launcher is fully controlled by a fire control computer (FCC). The microprocessor on the launcher automatically executes the commands received from the FCC, giving the operator the status of the system on displays and indicators.

Stand-alone mode: In this mode, the launcher is not linked to the FCC operator, and the operator at the console enters all the commands for laying of the launcher system and selection of firing parameters.

Remote mode: In this mode, a remote control unit carried outside the cabin up to a distance of about 200 m can be used to control the launcher system, the launcher site and to unload the fired rocket pods from the launcher.

Manual mode: All launcher operations including laying of the system and firing are manually controlled. This mode is envisaged in the situations where the microprocessor fails or where there is no power to activate the microprocessor-based operator’s console.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2010 08:36

so long as the truck engine is running there should be power barring some electrical failure. a mechanical failure would knock out the manual mode too.

for smerch the manual mode would need a team of clyesdale horses probably.

sum · Post by **sum** » 22 Jan 2010 08:54

The Pegasus trials remain blocked despite efforts of the army chief, General Deepak Kapoor — himself an artilleryman — who requested the MoD for trials to continue alongside the Central Bureau of Investigation’s investigations, to save time (reported in Business Standard on July 18, 2009). Rejecting that request, the MoD approached Washington to allow India to buy the American BAE Systems’ M777 ultralight howitzer.

Mind seems to have been made up for the Ultra Light weight winner. Wonder if the Amrikis have let $$ flow freely in Delhi to seal the deal? Otherwise, the move to keep ST out of only the ULW Howitzers while allowing them in the rest seems to be fishy.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2010 09:11

even bribes could be considered as offsets because mostly that money is invested in india - cars, homes, rich food, dowry, gold

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Jan 2010 13:30

Sorry Singha, disagree most bribes are deposited in Swiss and Western banking systems which they offsprings of the Bribe takers enjoy when they emigrate.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2010 13:34

you are right

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 23 Jan 2010 03:55

http://indiadefenceonline.com/1599/st-k ... -in-india/
ST Kinetics, a subsidiary of the ST Engineering Singapore, has announced that it will be fielding the FH 2000 – the world’s first and longest in-service 155 mm 52 Calibre towed Howitzer, in the field trials to be held next month.

At a press conference, ST Kinetics further elaborated that it has designed and developed the 155 mm 52 Calibre towed Howitzer, so that it could meet the Indian Army’s total fire power needs. ST Kinetics officials added that the stalled trial of the 155 mm calibre 39 Pegasus Lightweight Howitzer (LWH) will also recommence soon.
ST Kinetics has established itself as an innovator in defence technologies, including those for the Pegasus, Trailblazer, Bronco, SAR 21, 40mm Air Bursting Munitions. ST Kinetics has been involved in the design and development of Howitzers for three decades. Its Howitzers include the FH 88, a 155mm Calibre 39 towed Howitzer, the FH 2000 155mm 52 Calibre Self Propelled Howitzer, the Pegasus Lightweight Self Propelled Howitzer and the Primus 155mm tracked Self Propelled Howitzer. Besides being a leader in providing 40mm grenade solutions, ST Kinetics is also actively engaged in enhancing the potential of artillery systems.

ST Kinetics aims to strategically place itself as a partner in the modernisation drive of the Indian Armed Forces. For instance, its Lightweight Howitzer Pegasus is a highly operable and portable system that meets the Indian Army’s total battlefield needs. The Pegasus Howitzer has a better edge over others in its class due to its unique self propelled capability, flexible configuration and lower crew fatigue due to powered handling. Besides, ST Kinetics is also offering innovative and customised engineering solutions, including dual use systems such as the Bronco All Terrain Tracked Carrier suited for India due to its varied terrains.

ST Kinetics has revealed that it has bid for five contracts worth US$3 billion and is keen to set up a manufacturing base in India. The tenders comprise two artillery gun projects and a light strike vehicle for the army and two carbine rifle projects for internal security.

ST Kinetics, based in Singapore, is one of Asia’s leading land systems and speciality vehicle companies with a turnover of US$3.8 billion in 2008. It has a credible portfolio of products and services for the defence sector and commercial markets. Singapore Technologies is the world’s largest aircraft repair firm.

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Jan 2010 09:40

ST Kinetics, a subsidiary of the ST Engineering Singapore, has announced that it will be fielding the FH 2000 – the world’s first and longest in-service 155 mm 52 Calibre towed Howitzer, in the field trials to be held next month.

Dont these companies get tired of participating in these fruitless competitions every alternate year when it is assured that the competition will be re held again anyways?

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 27 Jan 2010 05:54

India – M777 155mm Light-Weight Towed Howitzers

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress Jan. 22 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to India of 145 M777 155mm Light-Weight Towed Howitzers with Laser Inertial Artillery Pointing Systems (LINAPS) and associated parts, equipment, training and logistical support for a complete package worth approximately $647 million.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 27 Jan 2010 06:51

^^^^

At last ! This definitely calls for a lungi dance!

A PDF from SELEX about LINAPS (warning PDF!) http://www.selex-sas.com/EN/Common/file ... ps_dsh.pdf

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Jan 2010 09:31

Anujan wrote:^^^^

At last ! This definitely calls for a lungi dance!

A PDF from SELEX about LINAPS (warning PDF!) http://www.selex-sas.com/EN/Common/file ... ps_dsh.pdf

And what good is lungi dance without taddi........

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 27 Jan 2010 09:50

Is 145 sufficient to fight a two front war in the mountains against our friendly neighbors? I would hope this is only a stop gap purchase.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 27 Jan 2010 10:17

tejas wrote:Is 145 sufficient to fight a two front war in the mountains against our friendly neighbors? I would hope this is only a stop gap purchase.

Well this does not form the entirety of IA's wish list. There were 3 kind of guns IA was looking for. Towed, SP and light. This is the light part. Of course the usual saga follows for towed and SP.

I think that it is KLPD for ST Kinetics then. Unless, IA wants to operate 2 kinds of light artillery.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 27 Jan 2010 10:26

The total artillery order will probably be at least 2000 guns total. I just think 145 light guns is too light for my liking.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Jan 2010 10:33

tejas wrote:The total artillery order will probably be at least 2000 guns total. I just think 145 light guns is too light for my liking.

IIRC, 145 will be entirely for China front leaving the 300 odd remaining 155 mm howitzers free for use against Pak.

Of course, this is a stop gap measure till GoI wakes up and fulfills the request for the 3 types of guns for the IA.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Jan 2010 10:43

sum wrote:
tejas wrote:The total artillery order will probably be at least 2000 guns total. I just think 145 light guns is too light for my liking.
IIRC, 145 will be entirely for China front leaving the 300 odd remaining 155 mm howitzers free for use against Pak.

Of course, this is a stop gap measure till GoI wakes up and fulfills the request for the 3 types of guns for the IA.

Assuming all the 145 guns are for operational use (trg. guns will be extra), @18 guns per regiment, we're looking at 8 such regiments. Now assuming we distribute @2 per mountain arty bde. to formations east of Bihar, we're talking about 4 Arty Bdes with this gun. A decent start considering the arty procurement fiasco....

My 2 cents(and sheer frustration): Chuck the whole damn RFP for at least the SP Arty acquisition. Just get the guns through FMS route from USA. Get the latest Paladin for the SP Arty requirement. We need the guns as of yesterday. I know there might be better systems outside of USA but one in hand is better than two in the bush.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 27 Jan 2010 11:27

According to Wiki, Pukistan has 265 M109s of various versions. I can't stomach the thought of buying the same from the US. Can't we have a gov't to gov't deal with the Germans for the PzH 2000?

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 27 Jan 2010 11:55

Singha wrote:so long as the truck engine is running there should be power barring some electrical failure. a mechanical failure would knock out the manual mode too.

for smerch the manual mode would need a team of clyesdale horses probably.

That would scarcely be manual anymore, would it

Still, might not be impossible to have "man-mule mode" at those places, given the number of four-legged companions that our logistics core takes along.

mukul_chou · Post by **mukul_chou** » 27 Jan 2010 13:49

putnanja wrote:When I look at the smerch trucks, it looks like the launchers can be moved only up and down ( in one direction). So the trucks might have to be put in right direction to launch the rockets.

http://www.enemyforces.net/artillery/smerch.htm

should not smerch be able to swivel to some extent? I think it can

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 27 Jan 2010 14:01

Given proper road and infrastructure , by the looks of it Smearch and Pinaka can be moved easier than conventional artilery guns including howitzers , they seem perfect for fighting in an area denial scenario.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Jan 2010 14:33

Apparently the BAe M-777 howitzers won the contest for the US Army.The sooner a decision is taken reg. the light howies to face the dragon the better.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jan 2010 14:37

dont worry. the FMS thing is happening. we can expect the first shipment by Dec2010 on a urgent basis.

delivered on C17

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 27 Jan 2010 15:20

I doubt we will be allowed to deploy the light arty bought via FMS on the western front. Only on the eastern. There will be the usual end user restrictions which we will agree to.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Jan 2010 15:46

merlin wrote:I doubt we will be allowed to deploy the light arty bought via FMS on the western front. Only on the eastern. There will be the usual end user restrictions which we will agree to.

I actually don't mid even that..at least this will free the existing units in NE and allow them to be shifted to shaft the TSPA.....

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 27 Jan 2010 18:59

I like the Chanakian thinking

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 27 Jan 2010 21:48

Will we get the excalibur rounds with the M-777 ? They looked gr8 in future weapons on discovery...

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 27 Jan 2010 22:37

merlin wrote:I doubt we will be allowed to deploy the light arty bought via FMS on the western front. Only on the eastern. There will be the usual end user restrictions which we will agree to.

What sense does it make buying them then if it cant be used on the western front ?

I don't think deployment of the artillery would require approval from US ...
There would be a crazy media hue and cry if the artillery couldn't be deployed on the western front ...

It would be a significant compromise on the operational deployment plans of the Army !
UNACCEPTABLE !

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 27 Jan 2010 22:47

It's not so much a case of wether we'll be allowed or not but more likely one of wether India wants to pit the US guns on TSP side against US guns on Indian side too , TSP have already had a taste of Bofors , why deprive them of that.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 27 Jan 2010 22:57

Posting in full....!

US set to sell 145 Howitzers worth $647 million to India

WASHINGTON: Terming India as an important force for "political stability, peace, and economic progress in South Asia," the Pentagon has notified the US Congress of a possible sale of 145 state-of-the-art M777 155mm light-weight towed Howitzers to India worth $647 million.

"The howitzers will assist the Indian Army to develop and enhance standardization and to improve interoperability with US Soldiers and Marines who use the M777 as their primary means of indirect fire," the Defense Security Cooperation Agency said in a statement to the Congress.

"India intends to use the howitzers to modernize its armed forces and enhance its ability to operate in hazardous conditions," the agency said.

It also said the sale of Howitzers will contribute to the US's foreign policy and national security by helping to strengthen the US-India strategic relationship. India will have no difficulty absorbing these weapons into its armed forces, the said agency adding the sale will not alter basic military balance in the region.

Besides the US Marine with 380 such systems and US National Guard with 273 of them, Australia (57 guns) and Canada (12) are the only other two foreign countries who have been supplied this state of the art military equipment by the US.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 27 Jan 2010 23:12

Onlee 145 guns, we need 10 times that number

and the price appears a bit high, per wiki Unit cost of Pinaka MBRL is 0.58 Mil, even taking price increase to $2 mil per unit we can get 322 pinakas for this price, more fire power and faster mobility, though guns have their own importance, moi thinks its very costly considering our neigh to the west gets it nearly free of charge.

negi · Post by **negi** » 27 Jan 2010 23:45

^ These LWHs are for places where no wheeled or tracked vehicles can go , we are talking about high vantage points/check posts accessible on foot where most of the stuff will have to be hoisted by choppers or by mules. And yes even for those places where the roads are only wide enough and with limited load bearing cap to accommodate 'Jonghas'/Axe for no GRAD/Pinaka/Bofors can reach or be transported to such places.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jan 2010 00:13

Can they start a R&D program now atleast?