Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Aug 2009 21:51

Neela wrote:Apologies if posted before.

3D models of Agni-3SL showing stages and warheads.
http://www.the3dstudio.com/product_deta ... duct=65158

The front end is too blunt for aerodynamic forces. Needs to be more of an ogive transitioning to a cylinder.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 25 Aug 2009 21:58

A 2 stage ABM can only do medium and high altitude interception.

For low altitude ABM the interceptor vehicle has to be single stage.

So AAD and PAD is the right solution space.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 25 Aug 2009 22:04

ramana wrote:
Neela wrote:Apologies if posted before.

3D models of Agni-3SL showing stages and warheads.
http://www.the3dstudio.com/product_deta ... duct=65158
The front end is too blunt for aerodynamic forces. Needs to be more of an ogive transitioning to a cylinder.

Cool. The person has a done a high fidelity 3 D rendering of Indian ballistic missiles:
Product collection: DRDO India Ballistic Missiles

BTW I was planning to do the 3D rending using a 3D CAD software myself except for the lack of time. This work is very good.

On A3SL if the in-flight rendering also showed a deployed aerospike (that I did not show in BR's 3SL diagram) atop ogive nose shell I think it will be very close to the real thing.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 26 Aug 2009 00:50

Apologies if this has been posted before.
----------------------------------------
Aero India International Seminar 2009 :: Webcast is available for viewing
http://www.24framesdigital.com/aeroindi ... /index.htm

In context of this thread, may I recommend the talk given by Dr. V. K. Saraswat, Distinguished Scientist, CCR&D (MMS), DRDO
http://www.24framesdigital.com/aeroindi ... aswat.html

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Aug 2009 00:59

Austin wrote:
Rahul M wrote:austin, any news of the russian AAMs from MAKS ?
Not sure if it helps , but this is what i found at Keypubs link

surely I missed some info in translation but all in all not very impressive IMHO.

and sadly nothing about the ultra LR ones.

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 26 Aug 2009 20:30

Sumeet wrote:Andy,

DRDO is also developing SR SAM called Maitri with MBDA. That is more of a competitor with SPYDER SR and may be AKASH. Don't know much details though. So most of this stuff will be diversified between Israel and France. The MFR that powers ballistic missile defense system of India is Master A radar from Thales. LRTR is indigenized Green Pine.

So most of the stuff is JV. And we can indigenize critical technologies that are foreign in these products as time passes by. But for now we want to get them inducted into our services ASAP. Indigenization will happen over time. If memory serves me well this was confirmed by VK Saraswat in one of his interview. I will try to dig up proof for this.

So plan is there for everything.

Sumeet,
If I am not wrong, the JV with MBDA for dev. of SR SAM has been cancelled during MMS's recent visit to France.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Aug 2009 02:09

Arun Visit the nuke thread. Santy uvacha.

srai · Post by **srai** » 27 Aug 2009 02:42

Austin wrote:
Sumeet wrote:Austin,

Rahul is right. Arrow or more specifically Arrow 2 is more like AAD missile.

Here it is right from VK Saraswat [from the interview posted above]:

During Phase I: Endo-atmospheric interceptor is AAD. This interceptor will engage targets at 25 kilometers. AAD is superior in terms of coverage area compared to PAC-3, which is 15 kilometers. You can see the difference. AAD’s equivalent is the Israeli Arrow, which intercepts at 40 kilometers. PAD is 50 to 80 kilometers. America is building a missile, THAAD — Terminal High Altitude Area Defense — that intercepts out to 120 kilometers, but it is still in development. However, a lot of failures have taken place during THAAD development.
May be Saraswat is a guy who wants to downplay their system , so that what he developed looks better , not to take any way from him for what he has done.

The AAD with a altitude interception limit of ~ 30 km and range > 100 Km is unique in that it on paper it offers a 2x times capability of PAC-3 and is roughly in S-300 class , all these are multipurpose sam which can intercept BM and cruise missile/aircraft.
...

DRDO is being smarter now. It is no longer the case where India has to develop everything (re-invent) of a system. It has access to some latest tech under TOT and JV. So it is a far smarter strategy to go for co-developing of complex systems as in air defense system, such as the Barak-8. It can reduce the complexity, risks, and time frame for developing a new system. DRDO has repeatedly stated recently that it would take it 12 years to build a AD system whereas only 5 years if done under JV.

However, for technologies not available for TOT or JV, such as for BMD related systems, then this is where DRDO needs to focus on doing it alone .... but even then sub-systems are available, such as the Green Pine radar, IR seekers etc ... so it is not necessary to re-invent everything even in cases like these. It's a smart strategy to be really selective on what needs to be developed in-house as resources (i.e. talent - researchers/engineers) are finite.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 27 Aug 2009 04:59

From Dr Saraswat's talk,

We intend to develop an electronically scanned array where the entire radome will function as a seeker...

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 27 Aug 2009 07:23

pankajs wrote:Apologies if this has been posted before.
----------------------------------------
Aero India International Seminar 2009 :: Webcast is available for viewing
http://www.24framesdigital.com/aeroindi ... /index.htm

In context of this thread, may I recommend the talk given by Dr. V. K. Saraswat, Distinguished Scientist, CCR&D (MMS), DRDO
http://www.24framesdigital.com/aeroindi ... aswat.html

unable to see any video, I just see that the media player is trying to connect and thats it.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Aug 2009 07:25

Gagan wrote:From Dr Saraswat's talk,
We intend to develop an electronically scanned array where the entire radome will function as a seeker...

Conformal?

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 27 Aug 2009 13:13

V.K. Saraswat, Chief Controller, R & D, (Missiles and Strategic Systems), Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), will take over as Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister from September 1. He will replace M. Natarajan, who has completed his five-year tenure.

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article9827.ece

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Aug 2009 16:18

There was a pic (DTI?),showing a unique ingenious Russian tracked launcher,which had a combination of several S-400 and another shorter ranged SAM ,about 8 missiles in all.This "combo",perfectly solves the problem of intercepting ABMs at both exo and endo atmospheric alts.One tracked launch vehicle instead of two for two differetn types of missiles.One presumes that the tracking radar and launch control system is also in one package.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Aug 2009 16:30

dinesha wrote:
V.K. Saraswat, Chief Controller, R & D, (Missiles and Strategic Systems), Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), will take over as Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister from September 1. He will replace M. Natarajan, who has completed his five-year tenure.
http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article9827.ece

Oh so the battle is over , Dr Pillai lost this race to VK Saraswat , I think Saraswat young , much of a visionary person and spear headed strategic projects like ABM and was at one time was heading Prithvi.

Also gives an indication that ABM project will remain of highest project to GOI.

While Dr Pillai did a great job , but his success also has 49 % Russian contribution if not more and I never ever once heard him giving Russian any credit , it was always "I" am Mr Brahmos.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 27 Aug 2009 21:47

Not sure if this has been discussed earlier,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirbhay_missile

Is the Nirbhay photo on the wiki page for real?

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 27 Aug 2009 22:24

Yogi_G wrote:Not sure if this has been discussed earlier,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirbhay_missile

Is the Nirbhay photo on the wiki page for real?

IIRC This photo was taken over the United States and obviously it is an american missile.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 30 Aug 2009 16:31

U.S. Says Pakistan has modified the Harpoon antiship missiles to Attack Land Targets
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/world ... le.html?hp

At issue is the detection by American intelligence agencies of a suspicious missile test on April 23 — a test never announced by the Pakistanis — that appeared to give the country a new offensive weapon.

American military and intelligence officials say they suspect that Pakistan has modified the Harpoon antiship missiles that the United States sold the country in the 1980s, a move that would be a violation of the Arms Control Export Act. Pakistan has denied the charge, saying it developed the missile itself. The United States has also accused Pakistan of modifying American-made P-3C aircraft for land-attack missions, another violation of United States law that the Obama administration has protested.

Some experts are also skeptical of the American claims. Robert Hewson, editor of Jane’s Air-Launched Weapons, a yearbook and Web-based data service, said the Harpoon missile did not have the necessary range for a land-attack missile, which would lend credibility to Pakistani claims that they are developing their own new missile.

“They’re beyond the need to reverse-engineer old U.S. kit,” Mr. Hewson said in a telephone interview. “They’re more sophisticated than that.” Mr. Hewson said the ship-to-shore missile that Pakistan was testing was part of a concerted effort to develop an array of conventional missiles that could be fired from the air, land or sea to address India’s much more formidable conventional missile arsenal.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 31 Aug 2009 04:28

pankajs wrote:Apologies if this has been posted before.
----------------------------------------
Aero India International Seminar 2009 :: Webcast is available for viewing
http://www.24framesdigital.com/aeroindi ... /index.htm

Incidentally, if one scrolls up two levels, one can view the webinars for all three days.

disha · Post by **disha** » 31 Aug 2009 06:56

Austin wrote:http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article9827.ece

Oh so the battle is over , Dr Pillai lost this race to VK Saraswat , I think Saraswat young , much of a visionary person and spear headed strategic projects like ABM and was at one time was heading Prithvi.

Also gives an indication that ABM project will remain of highest project to GOI.

While Dr Pillai did a great job , but his success also has 49 % Russian contribution if not more and I never ever once heard him giving Russian any credit , it was always "I" am Mr Brahmos.

Isn't it good that GOI has the problem of plenty? It has two great guys to choose from and choosing one over other may not mean anything. Maybe V.K Saraswat is young and hence may have more years remaining to contribute! Or maybe not. At the end, I am glad that the role of scientific advisors has had many stalwarts, including a former president.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 31 Aug 2009 07:51

disha wrote:Isn't it good that GOI has the problem of plenty? It has two great guys to choose from and choosing one over other may not mean anything. Maybe V.K Saraswat is young and hence may have more years remaining to contribute! Or maybe not. At the end, I am glad that the role of scientific advisors has had many stalwarts, including a former president.

Dr Pillai still has a critical role to play as the director of ManTech.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 01 Sep 2009 13:22

Modalities of BrahMos-II project being finalised: Pillai
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/227 ... being.html

The design team had already been lined up and discussions would be held shortly between the joint venture partners on investments, sharing of technical responsibilities, administration and sharing of manufacturing facility infrastructure, he said.

Work related to the design and development of this version had been fruitful and the advanced missile, which weighs 0.5 tonne less than that of the three-tonne land version BrahMos, was ready and the company awaited the modified SUKOI-30 MKI aircraft that would carry the weapon.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 01 Sep 2009 15:36

dinesha wrote:U.S. Says Pakistan has modified the Harpoon antiship missiles to Attack Land Targets
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/world ... le.html?hp

What that has to do with Indian Missile thread?

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 01 Sep 2009 20:20

Hi

Does anybody have any idea about how India fares against other countries in terms of number of missile tests done per year especially china ?

If possible please mentions the numbers.....

Thanks

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Sep 2009 22:56

disha wrote:Isn't it good that GOI has the problem of plenty? It has two great guys to choose from and choosing one over other may not mean anything. Maybe V.K Saraswat is young and hence may have more years remaining to contribute! Or maybe not. At the end, I am glad that the role of scientific advisors has had many stalwarts, including a former president.

GOI is itself a problem

But coming to the point VKS has worked and delivered on technically challenging project like ABM systems and Prithvi , which is technically far more challenging that the Brahmos.

Yes he is younger and a visionary and can lead DRDO

Dr Pillai is more of "I did it guy" , his contribution to Brahmos is note worthy but it is derived from a mature program from Russia which is Yakhont

But Brahmos II is more of a challenging project , lets see if he and his team can develop a scramjet engine indigenously or it ends up being a Russian import and they then call it JV or co-development.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Sep 2009 22:59

What was done with the structure and the engine in Block II is extremely critical for Indian Army future ops. Its no mean feat. However with his experience he is needed to oversee the Man Tech program which is the next step in self reliance.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 01 Sep 2009 23:15

rajsunder wrote: unable to see any video, I just see that the media player is trying to connect and thats it.

Some of these lectures are also available on YouTube

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Sep 2009 23:25

Hey Austin

Easy on the "I did it " criticisms

We do need a few of these types too.

Regards

Surya

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 01 Sep 2009 23:29

Surya wrote:Hey Austin

Easy on the "I did it " criticisms

We do need a few of these types too.

Indeed. That is why I like them both. They both say "I did it" with justifiable pride.

UPrabhu · Post by **UPrabhu** » 02 Sep 2009 09:59

Has anyone seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKIvnseOQgs it has brahmos blowing INS sindhudurg (decommissioned) to smitherins

towards the end.

Maafi if re-post

kit · Post by **kit** » 02 Sep 2009 17:41

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 963587.cms

China to unveil new missiles on National Day: State media

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 03 Sep 2009 19:25

Team,

One basic question: If we scale up the Agni (i.e. make it carry more fuel / increase the stages / make it longer / heavier), can the IRBM become an ICBM? Or are we trying to develop some path-breaking new technology to increase the range while keeping the size similar?

From the look of it, most of china's ICBMs look like scaled-up versions of the IRBMs (i.e. they are massive in size, configured to carry larger fuel, etc.)

Ofcourse, it is no cakewalk, even to scale up a missile and a lot of hard work shall be required, but it still is much easier than inventing a new technology. Given the urgency of the requirement, I guess we are scaling the missiles up

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 03 Sep 2009 22:24

Easy onleeee. Just use the S128 booster of PSLV and Agni will become ICBM with 20,000 kg conventional payload. Or even upgrade that to use the S200 stage of GSLV-Mk3.

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 03 Sep 2009 23:08

Arun_S wrote:Easy onleeee. Just use the S128 booster of PSLV and Agni will become ICBM with 20,000 kg conventional payload. Or even upgrade that to use the S200 stage of GSLV-Mk3.

If this is true, we should have had an ICBM capability by now. Or is there some kind of a chinese wall between ISRO and DRDO?

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 03 Sep 2009 23:24

Mayuresh wrote:
Arun_S wrote:Easy onleeee. Just use the S128 booster of PSLV and Agni will become ICBM with 20,000 kg conventional payload. Or even upgrade that to use the S200 stage of GSLV-Mk3.
If this is true, we should have had an ICBM capability by now. Or is there some kind of a chinese wall between ISRO and DRDO?

If there was a 'Chinese wall' then we would have had an ICBM years ago

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 03 Sep 2009 23:24

Mayuresh wrote:
Arun_S wrote:Easy onleeee. Just use the S128 booster of PSLV and Agni will become ICBM with 20,000 kg conventional payload. Or even upgrade that to use the S200 stage of GSLV-Mk3.
If this is true, we should have had an ICBM capability by now. Or is there some kind of a chinese wall between ISRO and DRDO?

No chinese wall, IIRC

Agni 1 = SLV3 solid booster (1st stage) + Prithvi liquid ( 2nd stage )

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 04 Sep 2009 02:55

juvva wrote: Agni 1 = SLV3 solid booster (1st stage) + Prithvi liquid ( 2nd stage )

Wow !

Agni 1 is a single stage solid propellant missile.

Did you mean Agni-TD during PVN era ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Sep 2009 02:59

He means the Agni-TD.

kit · Post by **kit** » 04 Sep 2009 09:00

vishwakarmaa wrote:
dinesha wrote:U.S. Says Pakistan has modified the Harpoon antiship missiles to Attack Land Targets
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/world ... le.html?hp
What that has to do with Indian Missile thread?

Actually it does.Remember those EULAS India signed with US , PK I 'think' has also done it. PK is showing uncle the middle finger that what it bought / got / borrowed is theirs ( and their aunt CN who would be very happy to reverse engineer whatever american weapons PK gets ! ) Now question is how India is going to deal with its EULAs regarding Block 3 harpoons or SDB s or whatever.Remember you may not get any spares if some congressman gets a cold.

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 04 Sep 2009 09:56

Anujan wrote:
juvva wrote: Agni 1 = SLV3 solid booster (1st stage) + Prithvi liquid ( 2nd stage )
Wow !
Agni 1 is a single stage solid propellant missile.

Did you mean Agni-TD during PVN era ?

Yes. Though Wiki is using Agni-1 nomenclature:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_and_ ... ction#Agni

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 04 Sep 2009 11:22

kit wrote: Actually it does.Remember those EULAS India signed with US , PK I 'think' has also done it. PK is showing uncle the middle finger that what it bought / got / borrowed is theirs ( and their aunt CN who would be very happy to reverse engineer whatever american weapons PK gets ! ) Now question is how India is going to deal with its EULAs regarding Block 3 harpoons or SDB s or whatever.Remember you may not get any spares if some congressman gets a cold.

OT but I think that "pakis modified harpoon" is an euphemism for something far more sinister that they did. Modifying harpoons for land attack makes no sense. Unless they modified it to target offshore oil rigs. But then even the SDREs used the styx against oil storage tanks in karachi. All this indicates that some bigger perfidy is afoot