Know Your India

[Sagrawal]

I had been inundated with various queries about Nadi Astrology. Decided to put together a website that can serve as a basis to understand things a little better. Would love to hear of other's experiences and plausible explanations.
https://www.nadiastrologyus.com

Thank you RCase Ji for the website. I have sent you an email. Thanks in advance.

[bala]

Six schools of Sanatan thought: Sankhya, Yog, Nyaya, Vaiseshika, Purva Mimansa, Uttar Mimansa
by Rishi Muni Gautam, Kapil, Kanad, Jaimini, Patanjali and Veda Vyasa

SANATAN'S VAISESHIKA

[bala]

I know that many have commented on Nilesh Oak's work, especially on his observation of Arundati and Vasishta, very distant stars.

But in this YT by Nilesh Oak, he talks exclusively just on nearer to earth observations noted in MB mainly planet Mars. He cites the following:

Udyoga Parva 141:8, 141:9; Bishma Parva 3:13, 3:16, 3:17, Bhishma 43:38, 43:54 and Shalya 11:17 91 verses

And using astronomy software proves 5561 BC as the year of MB War

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmD5qaVa6bU

// just adding this as a reference point for others to comment.

[bala]

Ramayana has a reference to Candelbra of Andes depicting the 3 headeded golden flag shining on top of the mountain. Can be seen 12 miles away from sea. The structure was created by Indra to mark the eastern direction.

Nilesh Oak explains in podcast

[Amber G.]

I know that many have commented on Nilesh Oak's work, especially on his observation of Arundati and Vasishta, very distant stars.
<snip>

And using astronomy software proves 5561 BC as the year of MB War

Using astronomy software to 'prove' 5561 BC as the year of the Mahabharata War is scientifically meaningless.

It's equivalent to watching a recent Ramayana movie to determine the color of Sita's sari or relying on Jurassic Park to describe dinosaur physiology. /sigh/

To state the obvious, astronomy software is simulation software that visualizes how stars and planets appear in recent or past times from any location on Earth. It is not a reliable source for historical data, especially 7,000 years ago. These tools are trustworthy for a few hundred years, but they do not claim accuracy for events that far back.

Repeating this flawed argument again and again is absolute nonsense. This point has been debunked at least a few dozen times, yet the same stale theory continues to be repeated.

[bala]

astronomy software is simulation software

The main Question is when did the 8 observations as recorded in Mahabharata of the next door planet called Mars occur?

Okay, let us grant simulation as the assumption for astronomy software. I notice you took out Mars in the quote but left Arundati/Vasishta which are very far distant stars. Mars happens to be the planet next door to earth. ISRO used some software to accurately place a mars probe some years back and did not miss it. Perhaps ISRO has better software or NASA or Russia. Nilesh is just using the 8 Mars references in MB by Ved Vyasa and this happens only in 5561 BC per software simulation. Okay, let us grant an error and I am presuming the software is using some physics equations to simulate the movement of mars with respect to earth. What error percentage can be given which is reasonable, otherwise earth and mars will be on a collision course or mars will be eaten by Sun or other planets. A few years of error per thousand years, which still puts the date around 5000 BC or so. The question is what % of error can be attributed to simulation software which is reasonable. Having 100% or 200% error is rubbish since that means it is the wrong equations for planetry movement. Even 10% range is bogus. So, We have to deal with tiny errors, a very very small fraction of 1% perhaps, which would still obtain a reasonable date for the 8 observations of Mars that are recorded in MB of Ved Vyasa. These 8 references are to be taken with Shraddha, Ved Vyasa also wrote the Brahm Sutra and Bhagavatham, and recorded Krishna's BhagavadGita. What is the percentage of error + or - we can assign to essentially planetry movement physics equations.

[sudarshan]

See, the word "prove" is totally the wrong word to use in this context. Astronomy was used to "estimate" the time of the MB war, I don't believe we'll ever be able to "prove" that a particular time was THE time when it happened.

Now, a few points on the above.

* Shri P. V. Vartak estimated almost exactly the same date, without using astronomy software. So far as I could determine (I could be wrong, and Shri Vartak has since passed on) - Shri Vartak used traditional Indian panchang data to make his estimate. Which would be pretty remarkable, if that's how he really did it.

* A lot of people misunderstand how the astronomical observations were used for the estimate. They think that Shri Nilesh Oak simply threw all the observations into the software, and came up with the date which matched all the observations. That is not at all the case. Nilesh Oak took a few observations (less than 10) and narrowed down the date to 556X BC. THEN HE USED THE REMAINING 100+ OBSERVATIONS, ONE AT A TIME, TO VALIDATE THE ESTIMATED DATE. He showed in his book, one observation at a time, that the remaining observations corroborated the date estimated with less than 10 observations. That's like training a neural network with 10% of the data, and showing that it correctly classifies the remaining 90% of the data.

* The dataset did not consist entirely of astronomical data. Nilesh Oak also used 100+ seasonal observations in the MB, and showed that each of them corroborated the previously estimated date. Seasonal observations relate to the precession of the earth's equinoxes. It is to be noted that 7000 or so years ago corresponds to less than one third of a precession cycle, so one can't say that errors would accumulate over many precession cycles and spoil the estimate.

* After all this, Nilesh Oak saw the significance of the Arundati/ Vashista observation, which is not a planetary observation (and therefore - it is not subject to errors accumulated in software owing to misestimation of orbital parameters). It is a star observation, which again derives from the precession of earth's equinoxes. This observation also corroborates the previously estimated date.

* On top of all this - Shri Nilesh Oak is not content to rely entirely on astronomical and seasonal observations. He has put in effort to understand hydrological and geological data, and to gather evidence from those fields to further validate his estimate. So dismissing all his efforts as "simple astronomical simulation hocus-pocus" is unfair.

* Beyond all this - Nilesh Oak himself states that his theory is imperfect, and that he will celebrate the birth of a better theory. He is not claiming that his date is THE date of the MB war, he is claiming that his theory is the BEST AVAILABLE THEORY TO THE PRESENT DAY for estimating the date of the MB war. He is open to the possibility of being wrong, and to the possibility of a better theory.

So it is wrong to say that his theory "proves" the date of the MB war, and it is also unfair to dismiss all his work as "astronomy software simulation."

[bala]

BEST AVAILABLE THEORY TO THE PRESENT DAY by Nilesh Oak

Yep, that is the point. Nilesh Oak has made a best effort using all available data points within the MB and came up with the new dates. To dismiss Nilesh Oak's work as nonsense is patently unfair to a fellow Indian researcher who has put in tremendous amounts of work and research. Commendable I would say, tis very scientific compared to the BS Big Bang Physics Theory parody of Western schools of thought (which is in contradiction to Vedas and to date Vedas are correct/flawless). If the physics fraternity cannot model the movement of Mars next door to Earth what is the point of planetary motion/guidance etc. Voyager seems to be doing fine in the infinite abyss of space, navigating properly.

Nilesh Oak's work is orders of magnitude better than the reams of crap from Harvard, Cambridge, Standford like dates for Rig Veda or even worse the stupid Aryan Invasion Theory or Dravida crap from G U Pope/Caldwell aholes of BritshitRaj.

[Vayutuvan]

astronomy software is simulation software

Having 100% or 200% error is rubbish since that means it is the wrong equations for planetry movement. Even 10% range is bogus.

This is a multibody problem. It is a system of differential equations. It an initial value problem. Errors have no bounds for simulating the dynamics. The longer the simulated time, more loss of precision.

That said, Lyapunov time for Solar System is 5 million years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyapunov_time

These are times for forward simulations. What Nilesh Oak depends on is time reversed simulation, i.e. starting from the current configuration, run the simulation in reverse to find the initial configuration. There could be multiple initial conditions from which the current configuration could be reached. Due to bifurcation, one initial configuration may give rise to multiple future configurations. There are also random events to take into account.

The entity known as veda vyasa (there are doubts as to whether it is one single person or a group of people belonging to a "guild" or a group like Bourbaki) may not necessarily be a reliable narrator.

[Vayutuvan]

See, the word "prove" is totally the wrong word to use in this context. Astronomy was used to "estimate" the time of the MB war, I don't believe we'll ever be able to "prove" that a particular time was THE time when it happened.
...

@sudarshan gaaru, thanks for this post summarizing his method. Going by his posts in BRF, he is very mindful of falsifiability.

[sudarshan]

@sudarshan gaaru, thanks for this post summarizing his method. Going by his posts in BRF, he is very mindful of falsifiability.

Sure.

The entity known as veda vyasa (there are doubts as to whether it is one single person or a group of people belonging to a "guild" or a group like Bourbaki) may not necessarily be a reliable narrator.

Who are the doubters? The usual AIT crowd?

[Vayutuvan]

@sudarshan gaaru, thanks for this post summarizing his method. Going by his posts in BRF, he is very mindful of falsifiability.

Sure.

The entity known as veda vyasa (there are doubts as to whether it is one single person or a group of people belonging to a "guild" or a group like Bourbaki) may not necessarily be a reliable narrator.

Who are the doubters? The usual AIT crowd?

Makes sense that it is some kind of a position. It is hardly possible for one person to have written all of that. Even compilation takes a team of scholars. Just imagine reading, understanding, and writing commentary on MB itself.

I myself believe that it is a position at some academy whose history is lost to time. One more thing - I don’t believe in the oft repeated statement that people used to live longer in those days. That is unscientific.

[sudarshan]

Makes sense that it is some kind of a position. It is hardly possible for one person to have written all of that. Even compilation takes a team of scholars. Just imagine reading, understanding, and writing commentary on MB itself.

I myself believe that it is a position at some academy whose history is lost to time. One more thing - I don’t believe in the oft repeated statement that people used to live longer in those days. That is unscientific.

OK, this is your own opinion then? Even if it is not - this is still a skeptical take, based on the argument of "practical realities."

Which is fine. But then - it would also be hardly possible that God Herself came down to the earth as a human being. Do you buy that proposition?

If one buys into the proposition of God coming down to earth as an avatara, then is it really so fantastic anymore to believe that one person could have written the entire MB? Especially when that one person is described by the MB itself as - "Vyasaya Vishnuroopaya Vyasaroopaya Vishnave."

OTOH - if one doesn't buy into the proposition of an avatara, then that is already a great deviation from the Indic narrative and Indic perspective. In which case, the entire story of the MB (and the Ramayana) itself is up for skeptical interpretation and rewriting in the name of "realism." How is that any different from the "Indologist" take?

[Vayutuvan]

You are mixing up various things here. MB is itihaasa. Obviously there are poetic freedom. As far as I know, no where in vedas reincarnation is talked about.

The only way I can explain dashaavatara is that krushna was a warrior intellectual ruler with great vision. Just like shree raama before him. Hence he is revered of the second coming.

I think the western indologists go far beyond what I am saying when they start doing Hermeneutics and other pseudo-science like PIE.

[bala]

The entity known as veda vyasa (there are doubts as to whether it is one single person or a group of people belonging to a "guild" or a group like Bourbaki) may not necessarily be a reliable narrator.

I think you are bringing in Western concepts into Indic way of life. Sage Parashar was Ved Vyasa's father, who was a respected Guru. He met a fisherwoman and वेदव्यास Ved Vyasa was conceived. वेदव्यास Ved Vyasa is also known as कृष्ण द्वैपायन Krishna Dwaipana, he was dark in complexion like Sri Krishna. In ancient times Gurus were considered next to the Brahman, they knew Vedas inside and out. Parashar took away his boy Ved Vyasa and put him through the rigor of study in a gurukul. I am sure Parashar tutored Ved Vyasa personally and took extra care. A guru teaches you the vision/idea behind mantras which one cannot normally comprehend by just reading the mantra. Children learn things in non-linear fashion. In those times the Vedas were not divided into Rig, Sama, Yajur, Atharva. It was Ved Vyasa along with his students who organized the Vedas into Rig, Sama, Yajur, Atharva. When you reach a high level of study any amount of material is like second nature and the sheer breadth of accomplishments for a human in touch with the Para can be mind boggling. Upasana, karm yoga all done at the samashti (cosmic) level yields forces beyond your understanding and capability. It is similar to how I started very slowly on the Vedas but things started to fall into place quickly because the Para assists you in "knowledge" and I have already outlined how "knowledge" is obtained in a different thread. These concepts are hard to grasp for a western educated mind. However Bharat has always had stellar people like Adi Shankara, Vidyaranya, Sureshwacharya, Bharatrahari, Panini and so on. No one in the Western world even comes close to these luminaries and with their quantum jump in understanding and writing. You can almost claim that a higher force takes over and helps smooth the way. Yes, Bharat has always produced Viswagurus for the entire world.

[Vayutuvan]

I understand all that. Mathematics is like that. Great mathematicians have enormous output. One person who did enormous amount work in the modern times is Donald E. Knuth. Yes it is possible. But they need students to bounce their ideas against. Students also bounce their ideas off of their advisors. That is why I said more like Bourbaki or somebody like Knuth. Panini's grammar is concise. It is harder to write short texts than long epics. MB, by any metric, is long and complex with complex philosophical musings. Still most of the epic is a description of the battles in excruciating detail. Even BG itself many many shlokas are repeated. The whole of BG can be shrunk to samkhya yoga with a loss of maybe 20%, i.e. 80% of BG is in samkhya yoga itself.

[bala]

Vayu ji you forgot Ramanujan and his unique/novel contributions towards Math. Donald E. Knuth is prolific, but I do not consider his contributions as earth shattering in the field of Math, just my opinion.

Your reading of Bharat's MB and BG is way of the mark, expecially about Avatars. BG is certainly not Sankya, it refers to Sankya but the message is completely orthogonal and unique. No other text in the world compares to the BG in the depth of messages conveyed.

For Avatars, I quote BG, and you need श्रद्धा Shraddha.

भगवद् गीता ४.७ ४.८
यदा यदा हि धर्मस्य ग्लानिर्भवति भारत | अभ्युत्थानमधर्मस्य तदात्मानं सृजाम्यहम् || ७||
परित्राणाय साधूनां विनाशाय च दुष्कृताम् | धर्मसंस्थापनार्थाय सम्भवामि युगे युगे || ८||
yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya tadatmanam srijamyaham
paritranaya sadhunam vinashaya cha dushkritam
dharma-sansthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge
Whenever there is a decline in righteousness and an increase in unrighteousness, O Arjun, at that time I manifest Myself on earth. To protect the righteous, to annihilate the wicked, and to reestablish the principles of dharma I appear on this earth, age after age.

भगवद् गीता ९.११
अवजानन्ति मां मूढा मानुषीं तनुमाश्रितम् |
परं भावमजानन्तो मम भूतमहेश्वरम् || ११||
avajananti mam mudha manushim tanum ashritam
param bhavam ajananto mama bhuta-maheshvaram
When I descend in My personal form deluded persons are unable to recognize Me. They do not know the divinity of My personality, as the Supreme Lord of all beings.

[sudarshan]

Swami Vivekananda, on several occasions, demonstrated the ability to read books page by page. What I mean is - a child reads letter by letter, while a grown adult (fully literate) reads word by word. So while a child may read a letter per second, an adult would read like a word per second. Adults with greater proficiency at reading would do sentence by sentence (about a sentence per second).

Swami Vivekananda was at the next level, where he read at the rate of one page per second. And he was able to demonstrate later - retention of what he read to an extraordinary degree.

https://vivekavani.com/swami-vivekanand ... ory-power/

On another occasion in the United States, he was able to pick up an air gun (he'd never shot one before) and shoot twelve eggshells in rapid succession as they were floating on the water.

https://thetaichinotebook.com/2016/06/2 ... entration/

All this is documented from about 120 years ago. His guru Sri Ramakrishna also demonstrated extraordinary capabilities, as documented by eyewitnesses.

One can always say "I don't buy any of that, those are all fairy tales." At some point, there has to be some acceptance of evidence, endless skepticism is futile.

One can sit and judge Vyasa according to everyday human abilities, but once in a while a genius shows up who is one or two orders of magnitude above the best of the best. I believe it is perfectly possible for one individual to have written the entire MB, and the Harivamsa, and the Vishnupurana, and the Bhagavata purana, and on top of that also interpreted the Vedas, all within one lifetime.

[Vayutuvan]

Vayu ji you forgot Ramanujan and his unique/novel contributions towards Math. Donald E. Knuth is prolific, but I do not consider his contributions as earth shattering in the field of Math, just my opinion.

DE Knuth's contributions to CS are earth shattering. He is the one who convinced mathematicians to include CS as subdescipline of Mathematics.

As for Srinivasa Ramanujan, yes he had unique and novel contributions. That said, he is one among the many. Gauss is considered as the greatest mathematician ever. Then his students - Riemann, Dedekind at least have to be considered to be greats. Euler, Jacoby, Hilbert, Godel, Russel, Klein, von Neumann (Game Theory among other things), Peano, Kolmogorov, Weiner, Church, Turing, Matiyasevich, Erdos, John Conway (game of life fame but he had many other things in turn based games). That is just sampling of the number of folks that are equal to Ramanujan. Both Hardy and LIttlewood also need to be considered greats. How can one forget Liebnitz, Newton (you can say he copied from Indian Kerala school but he had many original contributions too). Einstein should not be considered a mathematician, but equal to Ramanujan.

It is a fool' errand to rank mathematicians but the four great mathematicians everybody agrees on are - Gauss, Euler, Hilbert, and one more. I would put von Neumann and Godel up there.

[Vayutuvan]

I believe it is perfectly possible for one individual to have written the entire MB, and the Harivamsa, and the Vishnupurana, and the Bhagavata purana, and on top of that also interpreted the Vedas, all within one lifetime.

I agree that it is possible. But we also should allow for the skepticism of him being an unreliable narrator. On top of it, we also have to allow for later additions.

The blow by blow description of the war itself is probably second hand information of those who were observing the war while it was taking place. There must be what we call today war correspondents then too. It is but natural that what is happening on the battlefield is of interest to everybody, more so for the academicians, gurus, and learned folks.

[bala]

Continuing the Jantar Mantar series of Praveen Mohan



There is a strange device in India called the Samrat Yantra, meaning the King of all Devices. This is not only the world’s Largest Sundial, but it is also the Most Accurate. And this is also the Most Photographed Monument of India. But why does it have secret chambers? How Advanced was Ancient Indian Science?

The Sundial was accurate initially to around 0.3888 seconds - called vipala. In 1901 the British aligned it to modern time keeping and they reduced accuracy down to 2 seconds. The old 0.3888 was based on Indian time keeping system. Simple ingenious system built 300 years ago.

There is underground entrance (closed currently) which allowed astronomers to measure/locate sun spots on the Sun called shasthansa yantra. You can't use bare eyes. They used a pin hole system! The pin hole system was known much before. The Ancient Virupaksha temple has one.

// If you use google chacha for ancient sundials the list only includes some sites in Eurotard lands. India is completely ignored - chutiyas.

[bala]

So, the popular theory is आर्यभट Aryabhata (means noble warrior) / आर्यभट्ट Aryabhatta is the person credited with shunyam or zero. However, the existence of zero was prior to him. Chandrahas Halai explores the fascinating history of Indian mathematics and its global influence. He discusses the groundbreaking work of ancient scholars like Aryabhatta, Brahmagupta, Bhaskaracharya, and Pingala, whose contributions laid the foundation for many modern mathematical concepts. These include the positional number system, combinatorics, and even the binary system, which is crucial in today’s digital age.

Chandrahas also explains how Fibonacci, after learning from Indian mathematics, introduced it to Europe, causing a significant shift in how numbers were used, despite some resistance. The conversation touches on the ancient Indian origins of chess, known as Chaturanga, and how strategic thinking and mathematics were deeply connected.

BTW विरहाङ्क Virahanka builds on Chhanda-sutras of Pingala ( 4 th century BCE!) first to propose the so-called Fibonacci Sequence. Pingala's Binary system was applied in ancient Indian poetry (chhand).

https://mathedu.hbcse.tifr.res.in/wp-co ... ds-ak1.pdf



// everything taught in Indian math schools is filled with wrong information. The amount of stuff lifted from India is enormous and the Britshits threaded a fantastic yarn about history.

[drnayar]

[Amber G.]

* A lot of people misunderstand how the astronomical observations were used for the estimate. They think that Shri Nilesh Oak simply threw all the observations into the software, and came up with the date which matched all the observations. That is not at all the case. Nilesh Oak took a few observations (less than 10) and narrowed down the date to 556X BC. THEN HE USED THE REMAINING 100+ OBSERVATIONS, ONE AT A TIME, TO VALIDATE THE ESTIMATED DATE. He showed in his book, one observation at a time, that the remaining observations corroborated the date estimated with less than 10 observations. That's like training a neural network with 10% of the data, and showing that it correctly classifies the remaining 90% of the data.

Nilesh Oak's (who had a thread) has sparked discussion here and elsewhere. However, experts and scientists who have reviewed his book conclude that it lacks fundamental scientific rigor.
As pointed out previously, Oak's calculations are often nonsensical, even to those with a basic math and astronomy background. His methodology involves:
Cherry-picking random events
Using simulation software intended for current data, not 5,000-year predictions
For credibility, Oak should:
Have his calculations reviewed by astronomy experts
Publish his work in a peer-reviewed journal
Until then, his claims remain unsubstantiated.

[sudarshan]

Abstract

The planetary and lunar ephemerides called DE440 and DE441 have been generated by fitting numerically integrated orbits to ground-based and space-based observations. Compared to the previous general-purpose ephemerides DE430, seven years of new data have been added to compute DE440 and DE441, with improved dynamical models and data calibration. The orbit of Jupiter has improved substantially by fitting to the Juno radio range and Very Long Baseline Array (VLBA) data of the Juno spacecraft. The orbit of Saturn has been improved by radio range and VLBA data of the Cassini spacecraft, with improved estimation of the spacecraft orbit. The orbit of Pluto has been improved from use of stellar occultation data reduced against the Gaia star catalog. The ephemerides DE440 and DE441 are fit to the same data set, but DE441 assumes no damping between the lunar liquid core and the solid mantle, which avoids a divergence when integrated backward in time. Therefore, DE441 is less accurate than DE440 for the current century, but covers a much longer duration of years −13,200 to +17,191, compared to DE440 covering years 1550–2650.

The above is from the paper describing the DE440 and DE441 ephemerides datasets.

https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/doc/Park.2021.AJ.DE440.pdf

These datasets can be enabled in the latest version(s) of Stellarium, and it certainly seems possible to do relatively accurate predictions of planetary ephemerides back to 13,200 B.C. (although nowhere is there any mention of what the quoted accuracy is). If anybody finds any citation on the quoted accuracy of DE441 back to say 5,500 B.C., please let me know. I believe previous DE4** versions in Stellarium or Voyager might not have been that accurate (I did use Stellarium myself to verify some of Nilesh's claims - a few years ago). I'm interested in trying the DE441 model in Stellarium myself to see how well Nilesh's claims stand up to the latest model, but it would be nice to have some idea of the claimed accuracy.

[sudarshan]

Nilesh Oak's (who had a thread) has sparked discussion here and elsewhere. However, experts and scientists who have reviewed his book conclude that it lacks fundamental scientific rigor.
As pointed out previously, Oak's calculations are often nonsensical, even to those with a basic math and astronomy background. His methodology involves:
Cherry-picking random events
Using simulation software intended for current data, not 5,000-year predictions
For credibility, Oak should:
Have his calculations reviewed by astronomy experts
Publish his work in a peer-reviewed journal
Until then, his claims remain unsubstantiated.

I really don't understand these claims of "cherry-picking" by Nilesh Oak. Vartak and Oak (independently of each other) were the ones who made the effort to use every single known astronomical observation from the MB. In addition, Oak also used all the seasonal observations, without omitting any. Previous researchers like Yardi were the ones who cherry-picked a smaller subset of observations to make the dating fit their own timeline.

There's no cherry-picking when one considers all available observations from the text.

[Amber G.]

^^^ Sudarshan - good questions, I will answer your question in little bit in details later.
(Bottom line - much of this has already been discussed and there are serious books to emphasize why I say what I was saying.

Meanwhile, let me comment on another similar post - which I think is quite anti-logic and must be pointed out ..

Continuing the Jantar Mantar series of Praveen Mohan

<youtube]6ozUiQgrULE[/youtube>

There is a strange device in India called the Samrat Yantra, meaning the King of all Devices. This is not only the world’s Largest Sundial, but it is also the Most Accurate. And this is also the Most Photographed Monument of India. But why does it have secret chambers? How Advanced was Ancient Indian Science?

The Sundial was accurate initially to around 0.3888 seconds - called vipala. In 1901 the British aligned it to modern time keeping and they reduced accuracy down to 2 seconds. The old 0.3888 was based on Indian time keeping system. Simple ingenious system built 300 years ago.
{These kind of absurd statements are not helpful}

There is underground entrance (closed currently) which allowed astronomers to measure/locate sun spots on the Sun called shasthansa yantra. You can't use bare eyes. They used a pin hole system! The pin hole system was known much before. The Ancient Virupaksha temple has one.

// If you use google chacha for ancient sundials the list only includes some sites in Eurotard lands. India is completely ignored - chutiyas. { abusing others does not help }

Some thoughts:

- Agree that the Samrat Yantra's accuracy is indeed impressive, showcasing the advanced astronomical knowledge and engineering skills of its 18th-century builders. This is true for all other "yantras" in Jantar Mantal. Impressive but scientifically not as accurate as other observatorys in those days.

- As someone familiar with Jantar Mantar's history and mathematics, I've visited the site *numerous* times and have taken astronomy enthusiastic students there explaining the ancient knowledge along with modern science.

(I have even posted here in BRF several times - expertly explaining about a few yantras when forum members asked some questions - search through physics and math dagas)

Unfortunately, some Europeans have downplayed India's contributions to astronomy.

However, I find posts like the one above misleading and frustrating - even worse and less helpful. Name-calling and personal attacks are unproductive. Making nonsensical absurd remarks - WITOUT ANY REFERENCES about are not helpful also.

For instance, citing ".3888 seconds" is, in Pauli's words, "not even wrong" – it's absurd and nonsensical. I will not comment about that.. it is pure nonsense. Yes there are 2 seconds marks on the dial -- but no one claims it is that accurate. ( Yes there are "2 seconds" ticks but penumbra is probably at least 10x (or more) bigger - meaning accuracy is about 20-30 seconds, even in the best case)

Consider this:

When Jantar Mantar was built (18th century), its constructors combined ancient techniques with modern astronomical knowledge, including European astronomy. (I have visited library - the maharaja got all the modern astronomy books from all over the world and had competent - best - astronomers to lead)

They had access to books and telescopes used in modern observatories, which provided far better observations than even the impressive Samrat Yantra. They chose (and I have full respect for that) to use ancient Indian designs known for centuries to show case that)

Accuracy comparison:

Samrat Yantra (Solar Quadrant): ±1-2 arc-minutes (≈0.02-0.04°) ( Seem to remember a scientific survey where the deviation was about 2.5 arc-minutes.

Narivalya Yantra (Circular Altazimuth Instrument): ±5-10 arcminutes (≈0.08-0.17°)
Kapala Yantra (Azimuth Altitude Instrument): ±10-15 arcminutes (≈0.17-0.25°)

In contrast, ordinary telescopes (even the kind ordinary astronomers like me had in 1960's) achieve accuracy within a few arcseconds.

For those interested in learning more, I encourage you to explore Jantar Mantar's remarkable history and astronomical significance.

Jantar Mantar's accuracy is impressive, given its age, and yes, some Europeans have underestimated India's astronomical contributions.

BUT misleading posts and personal attacks are unhelpful.

Notably, Jantar Mantar's builders combined ancient techniques with modern knowledge, including European astronomy. Telescopes in modern observatories provided better observations. but they (even then in 18 ceturies - never claimed that ridiculous claims like the one made in that post)

[Amber G.]

Balaji - If you are really interested in sun dials and Jaipur's Jantar Mantar - please visit
this
viewtopic.php?p=2037406#p2037406
and other posts referenced in it.
( I have spent lot of my time visiting worlds, sun dials, design a few. Some years back I took my son and daughter-in-law on their first trip to India and shown them Jantar Mantar, as well as some other 75 years old sun-dials designed and made by my father in India (using nearly the same design as Jantar mantar but on a much smaller scale) near a village in Jaipur... The sundial was still accurate (within 1 minute accuracy).

[bala]

citing ".3888 seconds"

Amber G the transcript was verbatim from Praveen Mohan's YT. I listened to the entire YT and provided a narration faithfully, including .3888 seconds accuracy of the original markings. If you find things are not correct please take it up with Praveen Mohan, I have nothing to say and I am certainly not familiar with all the uber Western telescopes and their history. You have more expertize in this area.

The only thing I added is about Google search results - again verbatim what Praveen Mohan said. I added the comment "chutiyas" simply because all the FAANG companies in Silicon Valley have become totally biased and their own employees are revolting against them. A simple search on any topic throws up a skewed result. The recent election fervour clearly shows the bias of the FAANG companies. Google qualifies for being labeled as a "chutiya" company.

[Amber G.]

citing ".3888 seconds"

Amber G the transcript was verbatim from Praveen Mohan's YT. I listened to the entire YT and provided a narration faithfully, including .3888 seconds accuracy of the original markings. If you find things are not correct please take it up with Praveen Mohan, I have nothing to say and I am certainly not familiar with all the uber Western telescopes and their history. You have more expertize in this area.
<snip>

Balaji, thank you for your message.

To clarify, I have no interest in 'taking it up with Praveen Mohan' -- any more than debating unrelated topics like entropy of a Jihnn in Jihnn thermodynamics. (I briefly reviewed his YouTube video and wasn't impressed - to put it mildly).

You (or for those interested in Jantar Mantar) within the context of this "Know Your India" thread, I recommend:

- Visiting the site to appreciate its historical significance, and *actually* appreciate the geometry and astronomy by taking time to study it.
- Consulting reputable books for accurate information.
Learning from those who know the subjects.

You may like books like: (Using google chacha )

- 2014 survey by the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) Kanpur about Samrat Yantra - its accuracy etc. (Precision and Accuracy of Jantar Mantar Observations" by S. M. Razaullah Ansari, et al., Journal of Astronomical History and Heritage (2014))
- 2019 study published in the Journal of Archaeological Science: (Reports estimated a shift of around 2.5 arcminutes (∼0.042°) since its construction.) (Geodetic Survey of Jantar Mantar, Jaipur" by A. K. Singh, et al., Journal of Archaeological Science: Reports (2019))

There are *many* good books in Jantar Manta Library or available - eg Jantar Mantar Observatory, Jaipur: Its Architecture, Instruments and Observation" by S. M. Razaullah Ansari, Indian Journal of History of Science.

Added later: This 10 year old thread in Physics dhaga and comments below

Let's focus on exploring India's rich heritage and scientific contributions.

[bala]

Nilesh Oak in Ranveer TRS show talks about scientific evidence that backs up the life and times of Sri Krishna and Sri Rama. Actually many of the things he says for eg. all the western personalities don't have adequate evidence are in line with my own research. Krishna's Dwarka was sunk by the rise in sea water levels worldwide. There are texts of Mahabharat, Harivamsha and Bhagavatham by Ved Vyasa which have to be read and information from such texts provide various clues and incidents in Krishna's life. All evidences co-relate perfectly well together and they don't contradict.

In Sri Mahabharata Tatparya Nirnaya 32:8/9 of Madvacharya of Udipi there is mention of Sri Krishna living upto 107 years (sapthamabhdam shathotram).

[bala]

Indian Calendar vs. Gregorian: How the Christian Calendar is Holding Us Back - Dr. CK Raju

A conversation with Abhijit Chavda.



Dr. C. K. Raju is an Indian computer scientist, mathematician, educator, physicist. He was an editor of the Journal of Indian Council of Philosophical Research and advices other scholarly journals.

// notes from the talk of Dr. C. K. Raju

The Indian calendar is a scientific calendar. Month is based on moon - 30 thithis. The moon goes ahead of the sun by 12 degree, 30x12 = 360. A sinodical month is slightly less than 30 days. Nakshatra month is based on nakshatra. There are 27 nakshatra. Nakshatra is unique to Indian tradition. Sinodic month is also unique to Indian Tradition. Tropical year is equinox to equinox or seasonal cycle. A sidereal year is for the earth to orbit the sun in relations to nakshatra. The plane of the moon going around the earth and the plane of earth going around the sun are not the same. The plane of the moon cuts the plane of earth around sun at two points which are rahu and ketu. These are nodes of the moon.

Vedang Jyothish is not astrology, it is kaal vidhan shastra or time keeping. Other books like Yukti basha, tantra samghraha - Nilakantha Somayaji, Pancha siddhantika - Varāhamihira are similar.

[bala]

Why do most Westerners prefer Buddhism over Hinduism? Infinity Foundation Rajiv Malhotra discusses this topic.



The Deep State has created a fake Buddha (cf. Steve Knapp) from Nepal and ignored the previous Gautama Buddha of Bharat who was around 1800 BC. Next they thrust all kinds of canards onto the new Buddha, including the fact that Buddha did not believe in Brahman, Vedas, etc. All instigated by the Deep State actors. The buddhist don't believe in reincarnation and other vedic concepts. But meanwhile they usurped many other Bharat originated concepts like yoga, vedic logic, etc as Buddhist created. I have shown that बौद्ध शून्यम is a bunch of false theory not worth the logical discussions.

Current Buddhism has been morphed to tailor it to the practitioners in South East Asia. Hence they claim, Buddha ate meat, pork, etc. which is all BS. The Chinese CCP funded many of these theories in Western institutes of Buddhist studies. Buddhism is an offshoot of Vedas and Sanatan Dharma. Gautama Buddha was a Kshatriya and went on a personal search for meaning of existence in this world. All of Sanatan Dharma's Avatars are Kshatriya. There is no divide in Sanatan Dharma between varna Kshatriya and varna Brahmin, they worked together along with varnas Vaishyas and Sudras to better the society. However the West is trying to split their stupid brains along varnas and create the classic BritShitInspired divisions within a society.

Gautama Buddha dedication and perseverance are commendable efforts and he is supposed to have eventually found that nirvana. Sanatan Dharma encourages everyone to be on their own personal search, Gurus and Vedas can help. Those who followed Buddha tried to practice the same dedication/perseverance and followed his teachings. Buddhist practitioners in Ladakh and Gilgit/Baltistan area spread their faith to China and south east asia. Many of India's culture was spread to these areas along with Buddhism. You see this in places like Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Japan and China, along with Buddhist relics there are other Vedic relics galore. Japan's temples still have sanskrit origin texts.

Nowadays the fashion in the West is to take these things selectively and fit their Abrahamic concepts (which is a fallacy) and meld them all as one. Hello, these are orthogonal concepts, the twains never meet. The concerted effort to dilute Buddhism and make it their own twisted version is something which needs to be opposed. Rajiv Malhotra is doing a yeoman's job highlighting the perfidy by the West.

[bala]

Abhijit Chavda Interviews CK Raju on Aryan Invasion | Maths and Greek Lies | The Jaipur Dialogues



Apparently William Jones (the BritShit guy who falsely anchored the India history) was interested in when Aryans invaded India.

For any civilization there are some anchor points like calculation for trade purposes and usage of calendar. Though GU Pope and Robert Caldwell came up with the Dravidian nonsense, the entire India celebrates many time honored festivals like Diwali/Deepavali on the same day for centuries on end. The Vedas talk about huge numbers like 10 power 20, 80 and so on. However the greeks and romans did not use huge numbers. As an aside try the arithmetic system using Roman numerals (good luck). Apparently Gerbert in 10th century tried to understand Indian numerals from the arabics. They imported the system but did not understand Indian numerals - no negative numbers.

CK Raju claims that Euclid was a black women who lived in Egypt. {i think Euclid is a totally made up character} Greeks copied their gods from Egypt. Persia actually conquered the Greeks and thereby a transfer of its culture. Ancient India was adjacent to Persia and hence its culture transfered to Persia.

[disha]

^ Persians were the "Asuras" mentioned in our Vedas. Our own Doc Shiv Sastry'ji did an excellent study to prove that the Zoroastrian "Zend Avestha" is the lost "Chand Upastha", the fifth veda.

Check out who the Asuras considered their enemies.

[A Deshmukh]

One theory:
Asura ==> Syrians and neighborhood
Danav ==> Danube and neighborhood

[bala]

Significance of Shiv Shakti Aksh Rekha - What Are They & What Do They Represent?

PGurus explain:


This was known for awhile but needs re-iteration. Kedarnath, Kaleshwaram, Kalahasti, Annmalaiyar Tiruvanamalai, Ekambareswarar Kanchipuram, Nataraja Chidambaram, Jambukeswarar Thiruvanaikaval, Ramanathaswamy Rameshwaram - these 8 temples are aligned on 79 degree longitude approx. There is slight variation due to Indian plate moving against the Himalayan range. These temples are very ancient, rebuilt over time. The alignment signifies some ancient astrological significance.

Panchabhuta temples are: Jambukeswarar - Water; Annmalaiyar - Fire; Kalahasti - Air; Ekambareswarar - earth; Nataraja - sky/space. The Panchabhutas are explained here.

PGurus will cover each temple in later YT.

[bala]

Not just the Zero - India's gifts of mathematics and science to the world | Prof. C. K. Raju

CK Raju contends that the entire arithmetic framework is straight lift from Bharat.

[RCase]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQa2ol6w7lg

Very interesting description of how he deciphered the indus script, which is apparently sanskrit.

[Vayutuvan]

Yagnadevam has a discord channel as well. I had been part of that channel for about a year now. FYI. He participates quite regularly. I can post a link if it is ok with the Admins.