J & K news and discussion

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ramana
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

Hari Seldon wrote:^^^Sri shivas regal was right all along. Unless TSP is gifted credible scalable ICBM capability (regardless of source), none of its 3.5 frenz have any reason to reconsider their life-support to it.

In fact nce paki mijjiles can hit any continent, unkil will give TSP as much love and support as poor eyeran gets these days.

The Paki have always waged assymetric war. Their ICBMS are the RAPE who have infiltrated the West and have played upon Anglo-Saxon fears of MKG's India. They have provided the soothing pitch that allows the West to import jihadis under multiculturalism.
Telugu saying" Chedapuku ra, chededaavu!"

Don't ruin the others lest you be ruined.
Hari Seldon
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Hari Seldon »

>>Don't ruin the others lest you be ruined.

That's the point, exactly. We are already ruined. Yindia is anyway under Paki missile range. ICBMs in paki hands won't 'further' weaken us any. Not directly at any rate.
CRamS
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by CRamS »

sum wrote:
Ashley Kravitz wrote:NDTV: Burkha Mutt's interview with Arun Jaitley . Mr. Jaitley handled Burkha in an excellent manner.
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-bu ... ley/165922
The link is opening but the main video is not playing ( blank screen) after the intial 14 sec ad.... could anyone pls help out? is any plugin missing?
For me, there is a blank screen, but the video does start ev eventually. Maybe you should be patient, the Jaitly interview is worth it :-).
sum
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by sum »

Well, finally saw the interview and really loved the thappads Jaitley gives to Burkha and his straight no-nonsense arguements... He really does talk like reading from a BRF manual.

Am only hoping and praying that even if 20-30% of the people in charge of Desh have similar clarity of thought, J&K is safe in India.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by chaanakya »

This is in response to Hulaku's post earlier and that he referred to his discussions in other fora. Pakistan , all the time talks about UN resolution for referendum etc which, supposedly , grant right to people of J&K whether to remain within Indian Union or gain freedom or merge with Pakistan. Lot of heated discussions take place on this basis , mostly, because someone heard from somebody else what this is supposed to convey. There are only two choices :either with India or with Pakistan, No Azadi.

Here is the original text of the resolution and GOI's position is not much different yet.If such a referendum was to take place Pakistan has to fulfil its part of bargain first which it conveniently forget and omits to mention it.
RESOLUTION 47 (1948) ON THE INDIA-PAKISTAN QUESTION SUBMITTED JOINTLY BY THE REPRESENTATIVES FOR BELGIUM, CANADA, CHINA, COLUMBIA, THE UNITED KINGDOM AND UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND ADOPTED BY THE SECURITY COUNCIL AT ITS 286TH MEETING HELD ON 21 APRIL, 1948. (DOCUMENT NO. S/726, DATED THE 21ST APRIL, 1948).

THE SECURITY COUNCIL

Having considered the complaint of the Government of India concerning the dispute over the State of Jammu and Kashmir, having heard the representative of India in support of that complaint and the reply and counter complaints of the representative of Pakistan,

Being strongly of opinion that the early restoration of peace and order in Jammu and Kashmir in essential and that India and Pakistan should do their utmost to bring about cessation of all fighting,

Noting with satisfaction that both India and Pakistan desire that the question of the accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India or Pakistan would be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite,

Considering that the continuation of the dispute is likely to endanger international peace and security,

Reaffirms its resolution 38 (1948) of 17 January 1948;

Resolves that the membership of the Commission established by its resolution 39 (1948) of 20 January 1948, shall be increased to five and shall include, in addition to the membership mentioned in that Resolution, representatives of ....and ..., and that if the membership of the commission has not been completed within ten days from the date of the adoption of this resolution the President of the Council may designate such other Member or Members of the United Nations as are required to complete the membership of five;

Instructs the Commission to proceed at once to the Indian sub-continent and there place its good offices and mediation at the disposal of the Governments of India and Pakistan with a view to facilitating the taking of the necessary measures, both with respect to the restoration peace and order and to the holding of a plebiscite by the two Governments, acting in co-operation with one another and with the Commission, and further instructs the Commission to keep the Council informed of the action taken under the resolution; and, to this end,

Recommends to the Governments of India and Pakistan the following measures as those which in the opinion of the Council and appropriate to bring about a cessation of the fighting and to create proper conditions for a free and impartial plebiscite to decide whether the State of Jammu and Kashmir is to accede to India or Pakistan.


A - RESTORATION OF PEACE AND ORDER

1. The Government of Pakistan should undertake to use its best endeavors:

1. To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purposes of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of material aid to those fighting in the State;

2. To make known to all concerned that the measures indicated in this and the following paragraphs provide full freedom to all subjects of the State, regardless of creed, caste, or party, to express their views and to vote on the question of the accession of the State, and that therefore they should co-operate in the maintenance of peace and order.

2. The Government of India should:
1. When it is established to the satisfaction of the Commission set up in accordance with the Council's Resolution 39 (1948) that the tribesmen are withdrawing and that arrangements for the cessation of the fighting have become effective, put into operation in consultation with the Commission a plan for withdrawing their own forces from Jammu and Kashmir and reducing them progressively to the minimum strength required for the support of the civil power in the maintenance of law and order;( this condition does not call for complete withdrawal but only to keep minimum forces required to maintain civil power and L&O. Implication is clear that India get to control the area.)

2. Make known that the withdrawal is taking place in stages and announce the completion of each stage;

3. When the Indian forces shall have been reduced to the minimum strength mentioned in (a) above, arrange in consultation with the Commission for the stationing of the remaining forces to be carried out in accordance with the following principles:
1. That the presence of troops should not afford any intimidation or appearance of intimidation to the inhabitants of the State;

2. That as small a number as possible should be retained in forward areas;

3. That any reserve of troops which may be included in the total strength should be located within their present base area.

3. The Government of India should agree that until such time as the plebiscite administration referred to below finds it necessary to exercise the powers of direction and supervision over the State forces and policy provided for in paragraph 8, they will be held in areas to be agreed upon with the Plebiscite Administrator.

4. After the plan referred to in paragraph 2(a) above has been put into operation, personnel recruited locally in each district should so far as possible be utilized for the reestablishment and maintenance of law and order with due regard to protection of minorities, subject to such additional requirements as may be specified by the Plebiscite Administration referred to in paragraph 7.( read J&K Police)

5. If these local forces should be found to be inadequate, the Commission, subject to the agreement of both the Government of India and the Government of Pakistan, should arrange for the use of such forces of either Dominion as it deems effective for the purpose of pacification.

B - PLEBISCITE

6. The Government of India should undertake to ensure that the Government of the State invite the major political groups to designate responsible representatives to share equitably and fully in the conduct of the administration at the ministerial level, while the plebiscite is being prepared and carried out.

7. The Government of India should undertake that there will be established in Jammu and Kashmir a Plebiscite Administration to hold a plebiscite as soon as possible on the question of the accession of the State to India or Pakistan.

8. The Government of India should undertake that there will be delegated by the State to the Plebiscite Administration such powers as the latter considers necessary for holding a fair and impartial plebiscite including, for that purpose only, the direction and supervision of the State forces and police.

9. The Government of India should at the request of the Plebiscite Administration, make available from the Indian forces such assistance as the Plebiscite Administration may require for the performance of its functions.( Pakistani forces are not welcome)

10.
1. The Government of India should agree that a nominee of the Secretary-General of the United Nations will be appointed to be the Plebiscite Administrator.

2. The Plebiscite Administrator, acting as an officer of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, should have authority to nominate the assistants and other subordinates and to draft regulations governing the Plebiscite. Such nominees should be formally appointed and such draft regulations should be formally promulgated by the State of Jammu and Kashmir.

3. The Government of India should undertake that the Government of Jammu and Kashmir will appoint fully qualified persons nominated by the Plebiscite Administrator to act as special magistrates within the State judicial system to hear cases which in the opinion of the Plebiscite Administrator have a serious bearing on the preparation and the conduct of a free and impartial plebiscite.( Read J&K High Court , who gives a shit to Pakistani judiciary, not even their musharraff )

4. The terms of service of the Administrator should form the subject of a separate negotiation between the Secretary-General of the United Nations and the Government of India. The Administrator should fix the terms of service for his assistants and subordinates.

5. The Administrator should have the right to communicate directly, with the Government of the State and with the Commission of the Security Council and, through the Commission, with the Security Council, with the Governments of India and Pakistan and with their representatives with the Commission. It would be his duty to bring to the notice of any or all of the foregoing (as he in his discretion may decide) any circumstances arising which may tend, in his opinion, to interfere with the freedom of the Plebiscite.

11. The Government of India should undertake to prevent and to give full support to the Administrator and his staff in preventing any threat, coercion or intimidation, bribery or other undue influence on the voters in the plebiscite, and the government of India should publicly announce and should cause the Government of the State to announce this undertaking as an international obligation binding on all public authorities and officials in Jammu and Kashmir.
( Now India is in a position to give such an undertaking. Our elections are by far quite fair and computerised with less chances of bogus voting.EVMs are a boon , even otherwise.)

12. The Government of India should themselves and through the government of the State declare and make known that all subjects of the state of Jammu and Kashmir, regardless of creed, caste or party, will be safe and free in expressing their views and in voting on the question of the accession of the State and that there will be freedom of the Press, speech and assembly and freedom of travel in the State, including freedom of lawful entry and exit.

13. The Government of India should use and should ensure that the Government of the State also use their best endeavor to effect the withdrawal from the State of all Indian nationals other than those who are normally resident therein or who on or since l5th August 1947 have entered it for a lawful purpose.

14. The Government of India should ensure that the Government of the State releases all political prisoners and take all possible steps so that:
1. all citizens of the State who have left it on account of disturbances are invited and are free to return to their homes and to exercise their rights as such citizens;
2. there is no victimization;
3. minorities in all parts of the State are accorded adequate protection.

15. The Commission of the Security Council should at the end of the plebiscite certify to the Council whether the plebiscite has or has not been really free and impartial.

C-GENERAL PROVISIONS

16. The Governments of India and Pakistan should each be invited to nominate a representative to be attached to the Commission for such assistance as it may require in the performance of its task.

17. The Commission should establish in Jammu and Kashmir such observers as it may require of any of the proceedings in pursuance of the measures indicated in the foregoing paragraphs.

18. The Security Council Commission should carry out the tasks assigned to it herein.


* The Security Council voted on this Resolution on 20-1-1948 with the following result:-

In favor: **Argentina, **Canada. China, France, **Syria, U. K, and U. S. A

Against: None

Abstaining: **Belgium, **Columbia, **Ukrainian S. S. R. . and U. S. S. R.

** Non-permanent Members of the Security Council.



The upshot of the much touted UNSC Resolution No 47(1948) is to first Pakistan leave POK and hand over that to India to ensure impartial free and fair plebiscite .

Before we talk of any withdrawal or handing over of J&K it must be kept in mind that India is still legally at war with Pakistan and Armed Forces would retake at the first opportune moment.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by svinayak »

J&K: Azadi, Autonomy , Pakistan are one and the same
Ajay Chrungoo
30 September 2010
http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisp ... px?id=1435

At the Muthi refugee camp in Jammu , a refugee-activist Bhushan Lal folded his hands before Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram and asked a simple question: ‘Sir, when a not very educated person like me can understand that Azadi, Autonomy and Pakistan are all one and the same, why does this realisation elude such knowledgeable persons like you?’

The all-party delegation to Jammu & Kashmir maintained an embarrassed silence. Bhushan Lal then escorted them around the camp, showing the pathetic conditions in which Pandits driven out of the Kashmir Valley two decades ago, continued to live even after two long decades. Successive governments had failed to provide even basic human necessities, on the specious plea that this would give the refugees a stake in remaining in the camps, and not returning to the Valley when the State Government desired to show the international community that it had achieved the return of the exiled community. Inspecting one of the one-room tenements, CPI-M MP Sitaram Yechury asked: ‘what, is there no bathroom here?’

Pointing to a photograph on the wall, Bhushan Lal said: ‘Sir, when the Prime Minister came here two years ago, he promised this Mataji a two-room apartment with an attached toilet; but Mataji is now a photo on the wall (deceased) and there is still no toilet.’

Some migrants broke down and wept at the plight they had been reduced to – rendered homeless, hopeless, invisible and voiceless in their own land by the pitiless intolerance of Islamic resurgence in the Valley, coupled with the mindless obeisance of secular India to Islamic intransigence. They told the delegation that they were utterly in despair in the land of their birth, in the civilisational frontier they had struggled so zealously to preserve despite the vicissitudes of centuries.

If the plight of the migrants was sad, the local Hindus of Jammu, and the Kashmiri Hindus who had managed to rehabilitate themselves in Jammu , fared no better. As has been noted by other writers as well, the delegation found no time for the miniscule Hindu community in the Valley (just 2500 persons in all); the beleaguered Sikh community in the Valley or in Jammu city; the Hindu refugees from Pakistan and Occupied Kashmir who came in 1947, in 1948, in 1965 and 1971, and have been denied statehood and many basic human rights in the State.

Even organised Hindu groups like Panun Kashmir were initially ignored, and it was only after the national print and electronic media began flashing the news that minorities were being ignored by the delegation that – perhaps at a nudge from New Delhi - we were told that we would be heard late at night on Sept. 21, 2010. After some deliberation, a four member delegation comprising Dr. Agnishekhar, Sh. Shailendra Aima, Sh. Sanjay Raina and Dr. Ajay Chrungoo met the visiting Parliamentarians to present an alternative paradigm to the MPs who had hitherto heard only one side of the story.

We informed the all-party delegation that first and foremost, there was an urgent imperative that the Government of India appreciated the truth that there were two separate paradigms operating in the Kashmir Valley – one was that of the separatists and the other was that of the patriots. The Hindus of Kashmir comprised the patriotic constituency of India , but this section found its voice muffled and strangulated by those who had arms and violence at their command.

The Hindus of Kashmir, we told the parliamentarians, want desperately to live in a Union Territory located to the north and east of the Jhelum river, without the menace of Article 370, and under the full bounty of the Indian Constitution. It was high time, therefore, that the Government of India initiated a dialogue at the highest level with Panun Kashmir for the creation of a Union Territory in the Kashmir Valley for the resettlement of the four lakh exiled Kashmiris.

This homeland (Panun Kashmir) was the only way to reverse the genocide of the Kashmiri Hindus in all the decades since independence, and particularly the gruesome killings, rapes and persecutions and threats that led to the mass Exodus in the bitter winter of 1990. This was also the only way to defeat the communalism and separatism that has destroyed the cultural pluralism that the separatists pretend still exists, while the Valley has been rendered unlivable for virtually all citizens.

In this context, we expressed our outrage and dismay over the manner in which a section of the all party delegation went out of its way to appease the separatist elements behind the vicious stone-pelting that is injuring the security forces and citizenry in the current unrest, and were also responsible for the genocide and religious cleansing of Hindus, which forced us out of our beloved vale.

All the variants shades of separatism in the Kashmir Valley , we emphasised, are a negation of Indian secularism, of the Charter of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and were, above all, destructive of the Fundamental Rights of all citizens. The separatist movement in Kashmir Valley is fundamentally regressive and must be deprived of liberal legitimacy if we are to retain a united India .

Unfortunately, Muslim separatism and communalism have not been challenged ideologically or politically by the Indian State , and this addled the thinking of the entire population. To begin with, the separatists have fed the people with historical distortions and outright lies, which have resulted in the handing over of Kashmiri Muslims, especially the youth, to Taliban-style indoctrination.

What is important to remember is that Kashmir was never a Muslim preserve and always, through all the vicissitudes of its painful history, upheld the continuity and integrity of Indian civilization. Kheer Bhavani, Vaishno Devi, Raghunath Mandir, Amarnath, and the now lost Sharada Peeth, are proud symbols of a vibrant people who stood for the Sanskrit civilisation even when it was being beheaded in the hundreds and thousands. Legend says there was a time when there were only 11 Pandit families in Srinagar – so intense was the victimization of our people by an intolerant invading ethos.

The demands for Greater Autonomy, Self Rule, Independence or merger with Pakistan are ideologically one and the same, and mutually complement each other. This needs to be understood in New Delhi so that the complementary relationship between these strands of separatism is decisively destroyed, or the space for democracy, equality and nation-building will never be created in Kashmir .

Alienation in Kashmir is because, and only because, of the communalism ruling the roost over the minds of Kashmiri Muslims. It must be understood, we informed the parliamentarians, that it is a complete lie that the Indian State made and broke promises to the Muslims of Kashmir.

The truth is that the Partition of India envisaged partition of British India and not the Princely States , and this position was insisted upon by Jinnah and the Muslim League. Thus, when Maharaja Hari Singh acceded to India , the Accession was full and final and unconditional, at par with the accession by other states, and not open to any mischief or debate.

It is true that Mr Jawaharlal Nehru did promise to elicit the opinion of the people of Jammu & Kashmir about the Accession following Pakistan ’s challenging the same by force and by diplomacy at the United Nations, but this was subject to the basic condition that the invading forces would be totally withdrawn from Kashmir . As that condition was never fulfilled by Pakistan to this day, the corresponding condition cannot be executed unilaterally by India . This is poor logic, and bad in international law.

Further, it may be recalled that the Indian government held a plebiscite in Junagarh, Gujarat, only after the Indian Government was fully in-charge of the area, and this same principle was to operate in Kashmir as well.

It must also be asserted forcefully that at the time of Accession, neither Nehru nor any other Indian leader gave any assurances to the National Conference leaders regarding the future constitutional structure of the State. Nor did any NC leader ask for any assurances for a special autonomous constitutional status for the State. Article 370 was a mistaken act of generosity on the part of the fledgling Republic, and needs to be undone, so that all citizens of Kashmir can enjoy unfettered Fundamental and other rights enjoyed by other Indian citizens and denied to Kashmiris precisely because of Article 370.

Panun Kashmir categorically asserted that no promises were made to Kashmiri Muslims by Government of India in 1952 when the Delhi Agreement was drawn up or when the Presidential Order of 1954 was proclaimed. There were no promises made in 1975 and no promises made afterwards. Hence the Government of India needed to clarify its position on the poison being fed to the populace by historical distortions of unfulfilled promises and not succumb to pressure to base its future policy towards J&K on such false premises.

The author is chairman, Panun Kashmir
jamwal
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by jamwal »

I somewhat agree with a UT concept. If Israel can be created in a distant foreign land for refugees from all over the world then why not Panun Kashmir UT inside Indian territory for it's original inhabitants ? BUT in IMHO, KPs will do well in a Jammu or Jammu-Laddakh state/UT too.
ramana
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

NV Subramanian wrties on the Obama proposal for trade off:

No Trade offs for J&K
No trade-offs on J & K
The tragedy about Indo-US relations is that president Barack Obama understands so little about India and South Asia, says N.V.Subramanian.

29 September 2010: If newspaper reports are to be believed, president Barack Obama during his November India visit will press or insist that New Delhi resolves the Kashmir issue with Islamabad and effects South Asian regional peace in return for American assistance to its UN Security Council veto-power ambitions. This would not only constitute gross American interference in India's internal affairs but also reveal Obama's astonishingly naive understanding about the Kashmir issue and Pakistan's perfidy and threat to peace in South Asia backed by China.

To be sure, India has called upon itself American interference in its domestic affairs by frequently rushing to Washington to contain Pakistani terrorism directed against this country. In return for stopping that terrorism, masterminded, funded and logistically supported by Pakistan's military and intelligence establishment (26/ 11 being the prime example of it), Islamabad demands of Washington to mediate with New Delhi with the bottom-line that Kashmir should be its as part of the "unfinished business of Partition". And because the United States has ceased to think successfully strategically since the containment theory played itself out with the demise of the Soviet Union (Nixon-Kissinger and Zbigniew Brzezinski created Frankensteins respectively of China and jihadi terrorists), it has, among other things, adopted Pakistani thinking that Kashmir is the root cause of all the troubles in South Asia, and that indeed it is acting as a spoiler to US interests in Afghanistan.

Much of this has been so often repeated by superficial American officials, diplomats and even military brass that it is pointless to rebut such thinking again and again. But nevertheless, it is important to make some critical interventions. Pakistan and not Kashmir is the "root cause" of all the exploding tensions in South Asia, and without addressing that, no peace can come to the region. Pakistan's problem is that it has no identity except an artificial Islamic one, which has also shred since Bangladesh separated from it. Pakistan believes Kashmir's integration with it will resolve its identity crisis, but tell that to the Sindhis, Baluchis and Pashtuns of NWFP who all want to secede from a Punjabi- and Punjabi-army-dominated country.

India's three most transformative prime ministers, Jawaharlal Nehru, Indira Gandhi and A.B.Vajpayee, all made serious peace attempts with Pakistan but failed. Pakistan's benumbing identity crisis has put it into permanent opposition to India, which it hates and wishes to Balkanize through overt terrorism and via covert instigation of its Muslim community by such schemes as the Karachi Project. Quite apart from the fact that the blowback from Pakistan's terrorism against India (and Afghanistan) threatens its own existence, it also prevents any movement on Kashmir. For example, according to the much-touted Manmohan Singh-Parvez Musharraf formula (which Pakistan rejects now), the India-Pakistan border/ control line in Jammu and Kashmir would not change even while free Kashmiri movement from one to the other side would make them irrelevant. But can you speak of free movement between two states one of which is a trusting liberal democracy and the other a treacherous jihadi entity?

The solution to Kashmir lies in waiting, and if the Government of India had any sense (and not panic up to the US now and again), it would batten down its hatches so to speak and allow Pakistan to self-destruct, which it appears to be a champion at. Obama has repeated the rubbish (sorry for that) that India's stability depends on Pakistan's stability. Pakistan's stability has been coterminous with the over-arming of the Pakistan military (both by the US and China), which has then resorted to war and terrorism against India. If an over-armed, terroristic Punjabi Pakistani military is bad for a majority of Pakistanis, it cannot be any good for India, Afghanistan or the sub-continent at large. What it amounts to is that if a so-called "stable Pakistan" is no longer in the best interests of the persecuted non-Punjabis of that country, then it holds even less and perhaps negative value for the rest of South Asia.

So the message to president Obama when he comes visiting in November should be this: Keep off Kashmir. Like most Americans, you understand very little about the region and know India not at all. In its own time, India will become dominant in the UN Security Council without US assistance. The only India-US relationship possible is of equals and without conditionalities. If you understand that, shed your evangelism, respect India for surviving and prospering in such a bad neighbourhood, and concede that America has things to learn from India, then alone you could hope for a "path-breaking" visit.

And sorry, no trade-offs on Kashmir.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

This article is about Palestine problem but applies to India and Kashmir. Its the fatal flaw of 'grande geste' that sinks the modern mind when it confronts the antediluvian mind.

If Menachem Begin had worn swim trunks, he would never have completely withdrawn from Sinai and kept Gaza


....
Nor has there has been any real peace since. Not only did Israel lose all the resources of Sinai, but once Begin and the Israelis had withdrawn from Sinai, all attention was focused on the Palestinians in both Gaza, and the West Bank, a problem which had been purposefully left unresolved -- "the Trojan Horse" left behind, very cannily, by Anwar Sadat and Hosni Mubarak -- and it was crystal clear that no one would settle for anything less than Anwar Sadat and Hosni Mubarak settled for; and no one ever has or ever will! But the young Israelis celebrated their withdrawal -- or, as some would put it, 'their discomfiture' -- and released "peace doves," unmindful of the downhill slide, even towards illegitimacy, that had commenced and has not let up even to this day. How "au courrant," yet how humbling and humiliating.

So what has been achieved since? Almost nothing; and now, some thirty-five years on, everything is on the table once again, as it has been really all along, even with sympathetic presidents. Nor is there any point to retreating to "the Green Lines" people like to speak about while "forgetting" -- ever so conveniently -- that there was never anything "official" about these. They was just where the 1948 fighting stopped, c. 1949. If one were going to go that far back, why not go further, to older "Partitions" or, better still, all the way back? One could go back to 1919 or, even perhaps before that and World War I, but 1919-1922 will do.

What is so important about then? Well, first of all, there was the Versailles Peace Conference establishing Mandates and, in particular, the Mandate for Palestine with the "Balfour Declaration" subjoined. Then in 1922, there was the Palestine Order-in-Council promulgated by the British Authorities and fixing the Government. But "Palestine" at that time consisted of both sides of the Jordan River, an area in which there was enough space to solve the national problems of the two Peoples, "the Arabs" and "the Jews," as they were then referred to ("Jews" at that time even calling themselves "Palestinians boys"). But no one ever imagined or said that "the Mandate for Palestine" was supposed to end up setting up three states -- two Arab and one Jewish, or maybe even four.

Any realistic person would have, either at that time or this, realized that there was not room for three or four Independent States in the cramped territory between the desert and the sea -- there was hardly room for two. The whole point of the now-seemingly futile exercise was the supposed setting up a "Homeland for the Jews" -- "the Arabs," presumably, not needing another, already having so many -- a purpose which failed, since half of "the Jews" were wiped out in the ensuing twenty-twenty-five years; but in "the Mandate" and in the 1922 Order-in-Council, there were no borders set forth -- and certainly no "Green Lines".

So who were the biggest war "profiteers" of the whole process -- why the "Jordanians" of course, never even mentioned or conceived of at its beginning! No one ever questions their existence or their right to exist as a State, which is why they always remain so silent, just in case anyone should. They "swallowed the canary" as it were. This was another bit of British map-drawing, just like the disastrous one creating modern "Iraq" -- a country which also never existed before, except in the imagination of extravagant British map-makers like Gertrude Bell and her Foreign Office sponsors.

But where "Jordan" was concerned, it was courtesy of Winston Churchill and T. E. Lawrence, et. al., who cut away two-thirds of the Palestine Mandate and gave it, for services rendered in the First World War, to the Hashemite Family of Mecca (later to be given "Iraq" too for a time), after they had been unceremoniously expelled by the House of Saud. This has always made a tenable solution to the Jewish-Palestinian problem impossible -- as, once again, one goes back to the question of land or space and any clear-eyed person would be able to see that there was not enough space between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea to accommodate the needs of two Peoples -- one of whom not "a People" at all but simply a political entity. Nor has any of this anything to do with so-called "Green Lines" so many so much enjoy talking about as already signaled.

So what then is the solution? The solution is to keep driving this point home until it begins to be understood; and no one has put it better than, of all people, former Cuban President Fidel Castro three weeks ago. This is about the greatest Rosh Ha-Shanah present the Jewish People could ever have received or, for that matter, imagined -- and from such a source? No left-wing terrorist State will ever be able to raise its voice with impunity and without addressing his words on this issue again and one can see, even in Ahmadinejad's recent speech to the U.N., he was at pains to parry some points while avoiding others. Even Venezuela's Hugo Chavez has already started talking about being concerned about "Anti-Semitism"!

But certainly Castro knew what he was doing and chose his words very carefully. He, of all people, realized the problem had to do with "Christianity", putting it in terms of what he had heard as a six-year old boy: "The Jews", whom he had never heard of before except as -- in his own words -- "jewbirds," "had killed God" -- a proposition inherited to some extent in the Koran and, therefore, by Islam in the constantly-reiterated assertion, "the Jews killed all the Prophets" and originally given voice by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 2:15.

In fact, when I ask my students or any Muslim, for instance, who says such things to name one, because not a single recorded Old Testament "prophet" had ever been killed by "Jews" as it were -- not Moses, not Aaron, not Eli, not Deborah, not Samuel, not Nathan, not Elijah, not Elisha, not Amos, not Hosea, not Isaiah, not Jeremiah, not Ezekiel, etc. (if they have heard of any of these) -- the only ones they can ever come up with are John the Baptist and Jesus. But both of these, in so far as they existed, were patently killed by foreigners -- Herodian Puppet Kings or "Tetrarchs" or Romans -- not "Jews" per se, despite the deliberate libelous incitement involved.

No one has ever put it as succinctly or tellingly as Castro just managed to do and in so few words -- no friend previously of the Jews. He even put it in religious terms because, being as an intellectual, he recognized truth and historical accuracy, even specifically telling the Muslims, in particular, that no people, group, or religious community had ever suffered as much and that besides the suffering of the Jews over two thousand years the Muslims had suffered nothing - who publicly ever said such a thing? For him, "the Holocaust" incontestably occurred and, as such, was an incomparable historical event. In fact, the Muslims had really not suffered at all by comparison. This was the astonishing gist of what he said.

So back to my original point, which Castro put even more eloquently than I ever could. It is the Jewish People whose existence is and always has been threatened. It is they who need "a Homeland" -- not the 22 or so other "Arab" States whose right to exist no one questions. Nor does anyone seem to question just about any other country on Earth, including even such far-away places as Fiji, Ecuador, Oman, or Chad -- so why is it always the Jewish People's right to exist that is questioned? The answer goes back to the documents in the West, I have just been alluding to, particularly the New Testament and, following it the Koran, and the accusations contained in the "blood libels," I (along with Fidel) have described -- in "the East", these exist only so far as they have "bled in" from the West -- and which Castro admits were the only things he and most others had ever heard of regarding "Jews" when he was a boy.

I have alluded to these things in previous articles but, for the present, suffice it to say, "if Menachem Begin had worn swim trunks, there would have been no outright withdrawal firm Sinai" and therefore no "Palestinian problem" on "the front burner" -- which Mubarrak and Sadat had deftly left behind on the table unsolved when they went home having received everything they wanted. Nor would there have been any issue of withdrawal from Gaza, nor any armed Palestinian militias both there and on the West Bank. Nor would there have been any First Lebanon Campaign by Sharon, to show how tough he was after bulldozing Yamit -- the first Jewish "settlement" to be "pulled down" -- by all reports then simply a paradise. Nor would there have been a Second in Lebanon by his successors (while he lay comatose) to make up for the weakness of his subsequent unilateral withdrawal from Gaza.

These things would have been present, as they always were, but "on the back burner" so-to-speak, waiting to be solved, "not on the front". "On the front burner'", there would have been the issue of how to fairly divide Sinai -- and this should have been, as already remarked, in half -- right down the middle, as any objective observer at the time would have realized since the Eastern border of "Egypt" had never really been actually delineated and fully recognized even in British times. Over the centuries, it had classically been in Arab texts something "west of El-Arish" and this was how it was seen in Muslim sources. But Anwar Sadat was a political genius. He realized that all he had to do was kiss Menachem Begin on the cheek and everything, he wanted, would be forthcoming -- and so it was.

So where are all these supposedly "clever Jews"? Everything stemmed from the decisions and commitments made at that time to a lame-duck United States President like Jimmy Carter. A fair division would have been to divide the oil, Israel keep for early-warning time and areas some of the sophisticated airfields it had just built, and certainly Nueiba, Sharm el-Sheikh, and Ophira -- the perfect scuba-diving, sunbathing, and "Club Med" locales, utterly devoid of any significant population at the time except tourists (and these, mostly Israelis). Instead, Egypt got these and the wonderful tourist and scuba-diving attractions and sun-bathing locales and Israel was left with the population nightmare, it and all the world now call "Gaza." No wonder there is a demographic time-bomb in the making. As P. T. Barnum put it, "There is a fool born every minute".
....
Replace Isreal with India and Palestine with Kashmir! And the Brits stay the same!
I can see so many parallels and now respect the RJB judgement sagacity.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Paul »

Not defending JLN here, but kinda explains INC distaste for developing relations with the second religion-nation state.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by svinayak »

Paul wrote:Not defending JLN here, but kinda explains INC distaste for developing relations with the second religion-nation state.
It proves that INC was a tool of the global elite to create a global culture and elite after 1947 which they can control.
It was not for creating a national interest policy of India.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Iran slams India over J&K protests, India hits back, issues demarche

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/iran- ... he/691411/
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Vashishtha »

Iran slams India over J&K protests, India hits back, issues demarche

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/iran- ... he/691411/
India's foreign policy debacles....:(
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Raghavendra »

^ More like Press TV singlehandedly manages to start a diplomatic spat
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by JE Menon »

What's the debacle here? the Iranians acted like morons and got told off. End of story. If they want to continue it, they can. We are not helpless. The donkey Ahmedinejad should think twice before dragging us into his idiot crusade against all and sundry. We are not in that game. We are one of the few real well-wishers they have. they should think twice before injuring our sentiments and thinking of interference.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by brihaspati »

At the cost of appearing I told you so :
regarding Iran - on West Asia thread
brihaspati
Post subject: Re: Iran News and Discussions
PostPosted: 21 Jun 2010 10:24 pm
One more thing about Iran - just as I had warned about Turkey turning rogue when the "flotilla" did not yet happen, same is likely with Iran soon. Do not think that the favourable stance of Iran towards India will be maintained for long.

Post subject: Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion
PostPosted: 27 Jun 2010 06:54 pm
Summary of the mess in Afghanistan :
epilogue :
(1) Talebs come back to power. Initially they join up with a sham government of national consensus. But the real power in AFG is with the gun. ISI and Paki protion of the Talebs coordinate to make the northern Paki occupied western India one arm of the southern Afghan stronghold of Jihad. Iran forgets about Shia-Sunni divide to supply Talebs and extend and safeguard their reach towards IOR. They would also not like the Balochs to raise their heads.

(2) USA saves face, and withdraws. But there are political and military casualties back at home. Both PRC, and Iran see no problem in helping out the Talebs. PRC wants to keep the KKH open at any cost and preventing Uighurs from raising their heads. Iran is concerned about securing the Gulf, and Balochs and will really have no great tactical advantage in preventing "others" from attacking the unreliable "India".

Post subject: Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion
PostPosted: 28 Jun 2010 01:24 pm
Let us try to understand the Islamist mindset as relevant for AFPAK. The remaining doubts will be cleared.
(1) Sanjay M ji, Iran uses its Shia identity as a shield and tool against the two other historical claimants for the bosshood of the Ummah - Turkey and Saudi Arabia. The Iranian posturing is driven by their historical consciousness of empire. They traditionally think of the Gulf and the western bank of Indus as their own sphere of influence. In the modern context, the geopolitics says that their immediate enemy and danger is the presence of the Americans in AFPAK. As long as US presence continues, US army and covert forces can act right into Iranian border and heartland, both in the south through the Balochistan area as well as through AFG.

Look at it carefully : if they can get rid of US presence from Pak and AFG, its entire south-eastern flank is secure from western penetration. Moreover they can secure their side of the Gulf completely, if they can neutralize the Balochis. Iran has shown flexibility to deal with the "kaffir" - as in the Iran-Contra deal, if it serves its tactical purpose. Already there are reports of Iran supplying the Talebs.

In fact the Talebs may actually trust the Iranians more than the civilian occupation gov at Islamabad. In this case the Shia-Sunni hatred at the commons level will not prevent collaboration at the higher levels.
brihaspati
Post subject: Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2010 02:51 pm
Don't be surprised! Didn't I warn for some time that Iran would not be bothered by the so-called Shia-Sunni divide where the larger geopolitics of securing the "Gulf" is concerned? In fact Iran could actually play a role in fueling the Talebs too, and Iran may actually ditch whatever "nice" relations it plays at having with India to gain advantages in the AFPAK area.
Post subject: Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2010 03:11 pm

Both Iran and PRC have suddenly showed an apparent interest in taking their relationship with India "forward". Some have seen in this a certain tacit recognition of India's potential spolier role in ME, and are already hoping that this may lead to a new framework of power in Asia where PRC, Iran and India are equal partners with a common or shared interest.

It can be so. On the other hand it can be part of a more elaborate deception to soften up Indian alertness towards PRC's continued and increasing nuclear cooperation with Pak. PRC will have links to Iran and mutual coordination between them cannot be entirely ruled out. Iran, I have always maintained, will have interests in AFG and will not be above providing the Talebs over and above the Shia-Sunni divide. It will be part of a larger struggle to bring more of the Ummah within Iranian sphere as against KSA.

There are reasons to be concerned because such overtures are coming when the J&K issue is being put more on the burner, and pressures to have the Pak-EU touted solutions accepted will mount.
brihaspati
Post subject: Re: J & K news and discussion
PostPosted: 31 Aug 2010 02:11 pm
Foreign correspondents and cameramen are quite freely allowed in J&K. Iranian Press TV ran a story today with video on how the government was not doing anything to "punish" security forces and how the "killings" of innocent Kashmiris were going on. They showed the stone throwers and jsutified their action as people's anger at security forces not being punished. it was done by on-spot crew of Press TV and not a secret cam feed.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

TV Asia A US desi channel was reporting that massa diplomas met Kashmiri separatists in Srinagar. All this while CWG festivities were going on.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Anindya »

Kashmir Observer is reporting the same....
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Guys,

What is the signifance of this meeting. J&K will not be separated from India. The capability to use force to seperate it form India dosenot exist.

What are the khans hoping to gain by speaking to the Kashmir Valley Whabeis
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by jrjrao »

Report from the earth-e-shaster of the valley:

Image
Srinagar, Oct 3: Ahead of the United States President, Barrack Obama’s scheduled visit to India next month, two officials from the American Embassy in New Delhi on Sunday met the Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front Chairman, Muhammad Yasin Malik, here to know his views and assess the situation in Valley.

The officials, Kailash Jha and Pushpinder Dhillon met Malik for nearly an hour and discussed several issues including the situation in Valley.
Link
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

How did this happen? Why are we allowing Americans to interfere?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by CRamS »

abhishek_sharma wrote:How did this happen? Why are we allowing Americans to interfere?
Dealing with India by pretending not to deal with India. The choicse of the "Americans" is interesting; the pretense is on full swing.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by shiv »

abhishek_sharma wrote:How did this happen? Why are we allowing Americans to interfere?
The guy married a Pakistani and lives in Islamabad I think - pending a visa for his wife. If someone knows anything different please feel free to disabuse me of this information.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Neshant »

ramana wrote:TV Asia A US desi channel was reporting that massa diplomas met Kashmiri separatists in Srinagar. All this while CWG festivities were going on.

That is outrageous. I can't beleive it!
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by JE Menon »

massa diplomats have been meeting Kashmiri "freedom fighters" for many years now. The poor guys whine and talk about human rights and so on. Massa envoys listen politely, yawning inside. Massa diplomats return, and attend the next evening cocktail. Some report will be written. Filed.

As for Holbrooke, bugger hardly gets the time of day from us. His style of diplomacy has no takers in Delhi, where chai-biskoot is the norm. Somebody will be polite with him to the extent possible, and that's it. He can try his tricks back home or in Bosnia or wherever. We are slightly different. Wonly. OK?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

It may not be so routine or benign this time especially after the heating up in August and the later visit this year by Ombaba
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by svinayak »

jrjrao wrote:
The officials, Kailash Jha and Pushpinder Dhillon met Malik for nearly an hour and discussed several issues including the situation in Valley.
From
Indo-American Kashmir Forum (IAKF)
International Kashmir Federation (IKF)
Kashmir Overseas Association (KOA)

Dr. Manmohan Singh, Honorable Prime Minister of India:

We, the people of Indian origin, are deeply committed to the welfare of India and as members
of the Indian-American community i ; we thank you for taking recent
appropriate steps to maintain peace in the state of Jammu and Kashmir.

Recent reports in various media outlets suggest that there may be some compromises under
consideration to dilute Center/New Delhi’s involvement in protecting the interests of Jammu
and Kashmir, Jawans, and India’s interests.

We would like the Government of India to promptly take the following steps to insure the well
being of the common man, the Jawans, and the integrity of India:

1. The Government of India must forcefully articulate, on the international stage, that POK
must be restored back to India, as it was illegally annexed by aggression of Pakistan.
2. Refrain from making any changes to the Armed Forces Special Provision Act (AFSPA).
This will only encourage more terrorism while reducing the capabilities of our Jawans.
3. Refrain from making any reductions in the strength by reducing number of Jawans
maintaining peace and protecting the borders of Bharat
4. We recommend morale of our Jawans be boosted by extending them support in every
way. This includes providing modern weapons and safety equipment.
5. Separatists should be dealt with firmly, discouraging aggression while protecting
citizens.
6. India must make it clear to the entire world and the Kashmiris (“Indian citizens”)
themselves, that the internal violence in Kashmir, cross-border terrorism and Pakistani
citizen infiltration must stop before the Jawans may be assigned to other duties
elsewhere.
7. The Government of India should move to repeal the discriminatory Article 370 of the
Constitution bringing stability and equality to the valley.
8. The Government of India should take appropriate steps to rehabilitate and resettle
Kashmiri Pandits back to their ancestral land.

We hope and pray for the good of India, the people of Jammu and Kashmir, and the world at
large, that you will extend timely and favorable consideration to our suggestions.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by CRamS »

JE Menon wrote: As for Holbrooke, bugger hardly gets the time of day from us. His style of diplomacy has no takers in Delhi, where chai-biskoot is the norm. Somebody will be polite with him to the extent possible, and that's it. He can try his tricks back home or in Bosnia or wherever. We are slightly different. Wonly. OK?
I am not so sure. He himself so nan-chalantly said he will "deal" with India without pretending to do so. How do we know there haven't been any contacts. Till now, even as US keeps puking that so called India-TSP relations must be "fixed", one hasn't heard anyone from Indian govt articulating why this linking of AfPak to TSP's paranois visa vi India is not only naive but dangerous? Why is TSP's terror in the western board is unadulterated evil, but its terror on the eastern border and beyond into India must be rewarded?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

I don't think US has sufficient power to force us to change the status quo in J&K. However, the fear is that some of our leaders would be seduced by "super autonomy+joint governance for Security Council Seat" bargain.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

US believes that whole J&K is a disputed territory. However, this belief has not stopped their ambassador from visiting troops in Leh.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/usembassyn ... 933245415/
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

16 Bunkers being removed from Srinagar
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Pratyush »

abhishek_sharma wrote:I don't think US has sufficient power to force us to change the status quo in J&K. However, the fear is that some of our leaders would be seduced by "super autonomy+joint governance for Security Council Seat" bargain.

IF the GOI goes for some thing as stupid as suggested by Abhishek, then they don't deserve the SC seat. Simple as that, the seat is the ultimate symbol of national power and will. By showing that Indian will can be bent for some illusory benifits they will have squandered Indian chance for UNSC seat.

JMT
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Vril »

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_br ... ns_1447815

Code: Select all

removing 16 security forces bunker in Srinagar begins :evil: 
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by sanjeevpunj »

This government is beginning to do exactly what pakistan wants.I hope they know where to stop, and I hope they will not start dismantling the fence on LOC as well.Even one bunker down is a signal wrongly sent, this is the kind of thing exactly that keeps happening between Israel and Palestine, endless buildups and demolitions along the border, and then skirmishes, and then seeming peaceful days pass till another storm brews.The I-P conflict has two fronts, Israel-Palestine, and India-Pakistan.One side is the head, and one side is the tail of the same desire-to ethnically cleanse some regions that are irritating some limited set of people.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by JE Menon »

CRamS,

>> He himself so nan-chalantly said he will "deal" with India without pretending to do so. How do we know there haven't been any contacts.

Boss, he has visited India several times. We pretend to deal with him too. He is not liked in New Delhi, much of it is pour la forme.

>> Till now, even as US keeps puking that so called India-TSP relations must be "fixed", one hasn't heard anyone from Indian govt articulating why this linking of AfPak to TSP's paranois visa vi India is not only naive but dangerous?

Why should we? Do you think what we say publicly will have any particular impact on American action, on this issue? On the contrary, it could be argued that behind the scenes aggressive but quiet diplomacy is far mor likely to keep them on the straight and narrow. About the "India-TSP relations must be fixed" part, exactly. Why hasn't anyone attempted to "fix" it? Why did Crowley recently say that the situation in Kashmir was India's internal matter? No one in the US at this point will consider suggesting handing over any part of Kashmir to Pakisatan. On the contrary, if we could come up with a workable plan to take some of PoK back, they might well close their eyes to it :D

>>Why is TSP's terror in the western board is unadulterated evil, but its terror on the eastern border and beyond into India must be rewarded?

Rewarded? I have seen nothing that suggests that. Having said that, it is absolutely clear that they don't particularly care about TSP launching terrorists into India. Their only concern is the western border. And they are not making a secret of it. Our border with Pak is not their problem. It is ours. In fact, they may even encourage that a little now and then just so we don't get too big for our britches. Why do you expect otherwise?

The Obama visit will be an interesting one...
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Raghavendra »

Pakistani SIM cards recovered from militant hideout in J&K http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_pa ... -k_1447971

Militants in Jammu & Kashmir are increasingly using Pakistani SIM cards to communicate with their leaders and Over Ground Workers (OGWs), a senior officer said today.

"Nine SIM cards, including four of Pakistan-based companies, were recovered from a Lashker-e-Toiba (LeT) hideout in Kishtwar district a few days ago," DIG Ramban-Doda-Kishtwar range Manish Sinha said.

He said the four SIM cards belonged to Pakistani mobile companies - Thoraya, Jazz, Zen and Pak Tell - and a probe was on into procurement of these SIM cards by militants.

The SIM cards have been sent to cyber experts in Jammu for extracting data regarding incoming and outgoing phone calls, numbers, identity of OGWs and top militant leaders.

The recovery of these SIM cards points towards the increasing use of Pakistani SIM cards for communicating with their top leaders across the border, cadre and OGWs, the officer said.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by sum »

HuM # 2 in J&K sent to meet his 72 as per media reports...
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by CRamS »

JE Menon wrote: The Obama visit will be an interesting one...
Indeed. The stone pelting seems to be on breif hiatus for the moment. Wonder whats cooking behind the scenes between MMS. Obama, and TSP & Harried rats.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

Raghavendra wrote:Pakistani SIM cards recovered from militant hideout in J&K http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_pa ... -k_1447971

Militants in Jammu & Kashmir are increasingly using Pakistani SIM cards to communicate with their leaders and Over Ground Workers (OGWs), a senior officer said today.

"Nine SIM cards, including four of Pakistan-based companies, were recovered from a Lashker-e-Toiba (LeT) hideout in Kishtwar district a few days ago," DIG Ramban-Doda-Kishtwar range Manish Sinha said.

He said the four SIM cards belonged to Pakistani mobile companies - Thoraya, Jazz, Zen and Pak Tell - and a probe was on into procurement of these SIM cards by militants.

The SIM cards have been sent to cyber experts in Jammu for extracting data regarding incoming and outgoing phone calls, numbers, identity of OGWs and top militant leaders.

The recovery of these SIM cards points towards the increasing use of Pakistani SIM cards for communicating with their top leaders across the border, cadre and OGWs, the officer said.

So how do Paki SIM cards work in India? Shouldn't those calls from Paki companies be blocked or better yet monitored? Or its beyond technology?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Jarita »

Latest speeches by media blue eyed boy

http://www.groundreport.com/World/Acces ... St/2929627
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